0-60 a fluke?
#1
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
0-60 a fluke?
Could I get a 0-60 time (stock) from some real drivers, i.e. you guys? I've heard tales that the 5.9 times, etc. reported in magazines are the result of guys revving to 8000+ then dropping the clutch, or guys not using the clutch at all, or just using other-than-normal driving techniques, etc., etc. and that most normal people couldn't get under 7.5 secs. Sounded ridiculous to me but I'd like it clarified. Under 6 times are awesome imo, but add another 1.5 secs and that stinks. I'd like to hear about this from some of you owners (non-AT please). I couldn't find a decent post on this topic earlier today. Also, if you were to floor an 8 already doing about 65, 70 mph, does it have the same get-up as a car with massive low-end torque (e.g. any American muscle car making a quick Interstate pass)? I couldn't test this on the test drive I took. Any help would be appreciated.
#2
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: South Florida
Posts: 1,080
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To address your last question, it depends on what gear you're in. Of course, if you're tooling along in a high gear at 70 mph and floor it, it is not going to act the same as a car with "massive low-end torque." How could it? You have to drive a lower torque, free-reving car differently than a high-torque lower-reving car. If you don't like shifting and what the characteristics of a typical American muscle car this is definitely not the car for you (may I suggest, oh...maybe an American muscle car???
jds
jds
#3
Grand Poobah
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The RX8 doesn't have massive low end torque. In fact, it doesn't have massive torque at all. If you're looking for a dragster you're looking at the wrong car. Much like an S2K, you have to take the car to its limits in order to experience its potential. The difference between the RX8 and S2K, however, is that the S2K lets you know you're thrashing its engine at the limit whereas the RX8 needs to remind you with a subtle beep. That's the difference between a rotary and a bunch of cylinders.
If you want a car that will put out 250+ pounds of torque at 2000rpm...try another manufacturer. This is not the car for you. If you're someone who realizes that points A and B are rarely in a straight line (and when they are, you find a reason to go somewhere else first) then the RX8 might stir your soul. If you want a dragster, look at a Mustang. If you want a car that will drive The Dragon (318 hairpin turns in 11 miles) with aplomb, then the RX8 may be the car for you.
-Eric
P.S. Here's a link to a map of the Dragon. I've done it a few times and can attest to it being an awesome drive. Anyone up for some curves? :D
If you want a car that will put out 250+ pounds of torque at 2000rpm...try another manufacturer. This is not the car for you. If you're someone who realizes that points A and B are rarely in a straight line (and when they are, you find a reason to go somewhere else first) then the RX8 might stir your soul. If you want a dragster, look at a Mustang. If you want a car that will drive The Dragon (318 hairpin turns in 11 miles) with aplomb, then the RX8 may be the car for you.
-Eric
P.S. Here's a link to a map of the Dragon. I've done it a few times and can attest to it being an awesome drive. Anyone up for some curves? :D
Last edited by Sue Esponte; 03-04-2004 at 11:24 PM.
#4
Vivid Racing Test Monkey
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sue..
Wow...I need to drive to Tennessee SOON and drive 'The Dragon'. That looks like soooo much fun. (my wife is going to kill me for driving to TN for no good reason).
Wow...I need to drive to Tennessee SOON and drive 'The Dragon'. That looks like soooo much fun. (my wife is going to kill me for driving to TN for no good reason).
#5
Blue By You
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8,717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Exactly how are people supposed to measure their 0-60? I mean this with the utmost respect, but obsessing about 0-60 times are for teenagers and car noobs. As for the highway roll part, with the low torque it won't jump up to a high speed like a car with more torque would, but it's a matter of milliseconds of difference when already at speed.
I'll say it before someone else comes in here and does. If you drove the car and didn't want it, and are worried about 0-60 times and how it pulls in a straight line you'd be better served looking elsewhere for your automotive needs. The RX-8 is more about handling and balance than straightline speed (christ I'm starting to sound like and RX-8 owner...).
I'll say it before someone else comes in here and does. If you drove the car and didn't want it, and are worried about 0-60 times and how it pulls in a straight line you'd be better served looking elsewhere for your automotive needs. The RX-8 is more about handling and balance than straightline speed (christ I'm starting to sound like and RX-8 owner...).
#7
Grand Poobah
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ike, couldn't agree with you more...but I can't help but laugh as I read your posts and see the bananas going at it. :D
Did someone say "Peanut Butter Jelly Time Gone Wild?"
-Eric
Did someone say "Peanut Butter Jelly Time Gone Wild?"
-Eric
#9
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back to the issue at hand. I drove the RX-8 and wanted one (but it's been a while, I should have made an impulse buy :-) ). 0-60 times have a lot to do with how a car feels and are thus not only for teenagers and car n00bs. Example? If a car does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, you can rest assured that you will be pushed back in your seat, a feeling some car enthusiasts like. If a car does 0-60 in 9.5 seconds, you can bet that you will get no thrill at all out of this ride if straight line accleration is what you consider a thrill. What's a thrill for me? For straightline acceleration, under 6 (as a general rule) is an indication that I will get much pleasure from driving the car (in a straight line). Over 7, blah. Over 8, forget about it. For handling, I know the 8 is good enough to thrill me in regards to handling. I didn't romp on the 8 when I test drove it. That is why I'm asking you folks these questions. Well, that along with all the speculation found on this board and elsewhere about what the car can and can't do. Give me some times? That was idiotic to ask. How about this? Does the RX-8 give anybody any thrill when driving in a straight line? .... and .... If I downshift (I thought that was a given) to make a pass from IS cruising speed, will the 8 get me around the car in front of me in a hurry. Someone who has a had an aforementioned high-low-end torque car chime in here. I know I won't be getting a freakin 'vette, but I don't want a mother lovin' Pinto either, just a car that will scoot when I wanna.
#10
Registered
Re: 0-60 a fluke?
Originally posted by 123V
Could I get a 0-60 time (stock) from some real drivers, i.e. you guys? I've heard tales that the 5.9 times, etc. reported in magazines are the result of guys revving to 8000+ then dropping the clutch, or guys not using the clutch at all, or just using other-than-normal driving techniques, etc., etc. and that most normal people couldn't get under 7.5 secs.
Could I get a 0-60 time (stock) from some real drivers, i.e. you guys? I've heard tales that the 5.9 times, etc. reported in magazines are the result of guys revving to 8000+ then dropping the clutch, or guys not using the clutch at all, or just using other-than-normal driving techniques, etc., etc. and that most normal people couldn't get under 7.5 secs.
If you aren't normally doing clutch drop high rev starts in your current car, then you probably won't in your RX-8 either...
Regards,
Gordon
#11
Vivid Racing Test Monkey
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chandler, AZ
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
123V,
My background is all fast fast bikes and a few fast muscle cars. I'm used to torque and the rx doesn't have as much as I'm used to. BUT, given that, once you are used to the gear box and learn to rev beyond where a V-8 would be ripping itself apart it gets up and goes rather well. I will say that it does take some experience with the method of shifting (as in a lot more often and paying a lot of attention to what you are trying to do), then you can make this car do incredible things. I went for a drive recently and going through some serious hairpins and the like I never dropped under 6500 rpm. If you learn to feel where the powerband is on the rx then you can get good acceleration from the car. Granted it's no WRX but it's hella fun to drive and it sure looks good doing it.
Just my thoughts.
My background is all fast fast bikes and a few fast muscle cars. I'm used to torque and the rx doesn't have as much as I'm used to. BUT, given that, once you are used to the gear box and learn to rev beyond where a V-8 would be ripping itself apart it gets up and goes rather well. I will say that it does take some experience with the method of shifting (as in a lot more often and paying a lot of attention to what you are trying to do), then you can make this car do incredible things. I went for a drive recently and going through some serious hairpins and the like I never dropped under 6500 rpm. If you learn to feel where the powerband is on the rx then you can get good acceleration from the car. Granted it's no WRX but it's hella fun to drive and it sure looks good doing it.
Just my thoughts.
#12
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Raleigh
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To respond to the original post, I think this car has plenty of zip, even if it will lose a lot of drag races.
I have tested 0-60 with a G-timer--fully stock with a full tank of gas and no wheel spin, no 8000 RPM take off. I just started out with a normal clutch drop and took it to the redline in first and second. Best time was 6.95. The start up was very slow, but the car pulled very well after the revs came up, so I think that had I been willing to try Road and Track's method (they often record 0-60 times faster than other testers) I find 5.9 believable.
I will try another test after I get an ECU reflash next week.
I drive a lot on back roads and the passing capability of this car is excellent. It just darts around other cars and makes passing very easy.
I have tested 0-60 with a G-timer--fully stock with a full tank of gas and no wheel spin, no 8000 RPM take off. I just started out with a normal clutch drop and took it to the redline in first and second. Best time was 6.95. The start up was very slow, but the car pulled very well after the revs came up, so I think that had I been willing to try Road and Track's method (they often record 0-60 times faster than other testers) I find 5.9 believable.
I will try another test after I get an ECU reflash next week.
I drive a lot on back roads and the passing capability of this car is excellent. It just darts around other cars and makes passing very easy.
#13
I'm Tantalizing
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
the got 5.9 by dropping the clutch at 7000 rpm's if you want that time of speed plan on buying alot of clutches. In real world driving the RX-8 is fast enough to get you over the speed limit quick enough. I have to constantly slow down because in NJ we have the speed limit change every 30 feet it seems.
#14
Is Scarce
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This site has 0-60 and 1/4 mile times for many cars and years; it can also be ordered on different columns. I was somewhat surprised to see the 2004 Accord EX V-6 tied the 2003 RX-8 on 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. I also noted the significant variations for the same model car, but in different years.
http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm
http://www.ssmoparmuscle.com/speedcomp.htm
#15
I am still awesome...
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i got a time of 6.4 using a g-timer as well. this is with the fan on, and another passenger. did a 3700 ish drop and did not grip. still, i find that i end up with better times when i do get some spin. i had other runs where i had pretty good launches, and still ended up .2 off my best mark. shrug...
i'm going to order a catback pretty soon, too. haven't completely made up my mind as far as which. but either way, i'm going to do more runs after it's installed. curious to see the improvement.
it's not that i'm obsessing over 0-60 times or anything...i'm just curious to see how i fare against the 5.9 that was claimed..
i'm going to order a catback pretty soon, too. haven't completely made up my mind as far as which. but either way, i'm going to do more runs after it's installed. curious to see the improvement.
it's not that i'm obsessing over 0-60 times or anything...i'm just curious to see how i fare against the 5.9 that was claimed..
#16
Registered
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Milwaukee Wi.
Posts: 997
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 123V
Back to the issue at hand. I drove the RX-8 and wanted one (but it's been a while, I should have made an impulse buy :-) ). 0-60 times have a lot to do with how a car feels and are thus not only for teenagers and car n00bs. Example? If a car does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, you can rest assured that you will be pushed back in your seat, a feeling some car enthusiasts like. If a car does 0-60 in 9.5 seconds, you can bet that you will get no thrill at all out of this ride if straight line accleration is what you consider a thrill. What's a thrill for me? For straightline acceleration, under 6 (as a general rule) is an indication that I will get much pleasure from driving the car (in a straight line). Over 7, blah. Over 8, forget about it. For handling, I know the 8 is good enough to thrill me in regards to handling. I didn't romp on the 8 when I test drove it. That is why I'm asking you folks these questions. Well, that along with all the speculation found on this board and elsewhere about what the car can and can't do. Give me some times? That was idiotic to ask. How about this? Does the RX-8 give anybody any thrill when driving in a straight line? .... and .... If I downshift (I thought that was a given) to make a pass from IS cruising speed, will the 8 get me around the car in front of me in a hurry. Someone who has a had an aforementioned high-low-end torque car chime in here. I know I won't be getting a freakin 'vette, but I don't want a mother lovin' Pinto either, just a car that will scoot when I wanna.
Back to the issue at hand. I drove the RX-8 and wanted one (but it's been a while, I should have made an impulse buy :-) ). 0-60 times have a lot to do with how a car feels and are thus not only for teenagers and car n00bs. Example? If a car does 0-60 in 3.5 seconds, you can rest assured that you will be pushed back in your seat, a feeling some car enthusiasts like. If a car does 0-60 in 9.5 seconds, you can bet that you will get no thrill at all out of this ride if straight line accleration is what you consider a thrill. What's a thrill for me? For straightline acceleration, under 6 (as a general rule) is an indication that I will get much pleasure from driving the car (in a straight line). Over 7, blah. Over 8, forget about it. For handling, I know the 8 is good enough to thrill me in regards to handling. I didn't romp on the 8 when I test drove it. That is why I'm asking you folks these questions. Well, that along with all the speculation found on this board and elsewhere about what the car can and can't do. Give me some times? That was idiotic to ask. How about this? Does the RX-8 give anybody any thrill when driving in a straight line? .... and .... If I downshift (I thought that was a given) to make a pass from IS cruising speed, will the 8 get me around the car in front of me in a hurry. Someone who has a had an aforementioned high-low-end torque car chime in here. I know I won't be getting a freakin 'vette, but I don't want a mother lovin' Pinto either, just a car that will scoot when I wanna.
#17
Certified track junky!!!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lebanon, NH
Posts: 1,268
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
123V,
I did a series of Gtech runs back in August when everyone was all worked up about the Hp discrepancy. What I found (just take it for what it is worth) is that with a 7k-8k RPM tire smoking launch it is possible, under perfect circumstances, to get the car to scoot to 60 in 6 seconds flat. This is not good for the car so I don't suggest doing it. When you launch at a lower RPM the times get longer. I've got a couple of runs that were started between 5k-6k RPMs and the times ranged from 6.4 to 6.8 seconds.
If you are worried about not being able to blow the doors off of everybody that you meet at a stop light then the RX-8 is not the car for you. To get decent times out of the car you really have to thrash on it. You are not going to be able to do that very often without causing something to break. In my opinion I don't think that you would be happy with the car in the long run ("Over 7, blah"). Have you looked at the STI, EVO, 350Z, G35, or Mustang Cobra? They may be closer to what you are looking for.
I did a series of Gtech runs back in August when everyone was all worked up about the Hp discrepancy. What I found (just take it for what it is worth) is that with a 7k-8k RPM tire smoking launch it is possible, under perfect circumstances, to get the car to scoot to 60 in 6 seconds flat. This is not good for the car so I don't suggest doing it. When you launch at a lower RPM the times get longer. I've got a couple of runs that were started between 5k-6k RPMs and the times ranged from 6.4 to 6.8 seconds.
If you are worried about not being able to blow the doors off of everybody that you meet at a stop light then the RX-8 is not the car for you. To get decent times out of the car you really have to thrash on it. You are not going to be able to do that very often without causing something to break. In my opinion I don't think that you would be happy with the car in the long run ("Over 7, blah"). Have you looked at the STI, EVO, 350Z, G35, or Mustang Cobra? They may be closer to what you are looking for.
Last edited by Speed Racer; 03-05-2004 at 08:17 AM.
#18
Very unscientific, but....
with another passenger holding a digital stop watch....4,500 RPM clutch engagement, DSC ON, I got a 6.3 sec, 0-60. Take out the 200 pound passenger, turn off DSC, I could shave a tenth or two off that time without frying the clutch.
As others have said, if 0-60 is "your thing" then a Cobra may well be more of what you're looking for.
The RX8 is fast, no doubt. Is it the fastest? Nope!
The RX8's stregnths are much further reaching than that.
I've owned some muscle 0-60 "queens". Truth told, I became weary of them in pretty short order. That was one of the biggest complaints I had with the Z/G cars. They felt heavy (compared to the RX8) and I felt I had to "push" them hard to get the munbers the RX8 gets with little effort.
Passing on the highway is a blast. Drop down to 4th from 6th and you'll feel like you've been shot from a cannon inot triple digit speeds in a flash.
with another passenger holding a digital stop watch....4,500 RPM clutch engagement, DSC ON, I got a 6.3 sec, 0-60. Take out the 200 pound passenger, turn off DSC, I could shave a tenth or two off that time without frying the clutch.
As others have said, if 0-60 is "your thing" then a Cobra may well be more of what you're looking for.
The RX8 is fast, no doubt. Is it the fastest? Nope!
The RX8's stregnths are much further reaching than that.
I've owned some muscle 0-60 "queens". Truth told, I became weary of them in pretty short order. That was one of the biggest complaints I had with the Z/G cars. They felt heavy (compared to the RX8) and I felt I had to "push" them hard to get the munbers the RX8 gets with little effort.
Passing on the highway is a blast. Drop down to 4th from 6th and you'll feel like you've been shot from a cannon inot triple digit speeds in a flash.
Last edited by graphicguy; 03-05-2004 at 08:58 AM.
#19
Registered
iTrader: (2)
Here's another subjective answer relative to the thrills offered by the RX-8 in a straight line. The rotatry power plant is just plain different than piston engines - it offers a very broad, flat torque curve - not spikey like many piston engines. The RX-8 gets it's performance from good overall acceleration (what an engineer would call the average rate of acceleration), as opposed to a strong spike. What this means is that if you compare it to a piston engine car that offers similar acceleration times, the RX-8 will feel slower - it won't offer that head-snapping feel. I remember going for a ride in a first-gen RX-7, and being told by the owner "it's faster than it feels" and that's true for the RX-8 as well.
So, to answer your question directly, it may not be as thrilling in a straight line as other cars that offser similar performance (like a WRX) but you will be able to pass traffic with ease. I recall my first freeway experiences being something like "hmm, not so strong.... but wait, the cars I just passed are waaaay back there now." A pull through second and third will drop most anything, short of true high performance cars like Vettes, STis, etc.
OTOH, when you are on a back road, with nodbody around, slinging your RX-8 through apex after apex, getting into the throttle-brake-steer-throttle-brake-steer rythm of the car, listening to that Renisis sing, you will come away amazed at the performance - the Renesis (and the whole car) is in it's element here and you will find the whole package very thrilling. So, it's just a matter of context.
So, to answer your question directly, it may not be as thrilling in a straight line as other cars that offser similar performance (like a WRX) but you will be able to pass traffic with ease. I recall my first freeway experiences being something like "hmm, not so strong.... but wait, the cars I just passed are waaaay back there now." A pull through second and third will drop most anything, short of true high performance cars like Vettes, STis, etc.
OTOH, when you are on a back road, with nodbody around, slinging your RX-8 through apex after apex, getting into the throttle-brake-steer-throttle-brake-steer rythm of the car, listening to that Renisis sing, you will come away amazed at the performance - the Renesis (and the whole car) is in it's element here and you will find the whole package very thrilling. So, it's just a matter of context.
#20
Grand Poobah
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by 123V
Back to the issue at hand. I drove the RX-8 and wanted one (but it's been a while, I should have made an impulse buy :-) ).
Back to the issue at hand. I drove the RX-8 and wanted one (but it's been a while, I should have made an impulse buy :-) ).
For example, you said...
Originally posted by 123V
What's a thrill for me? For straightline acceleration, under 6 (as a general rule) is an indication that I will get much pleasure from driving the car (in a straight line). Over 7, blah. Over 8, forget about it.
What's a thrill for me? For straightline acceleration, under 6 (as a general rule) is an indication that I will get much pleasure from driving the car (in a straight line). Over 7, blah. Over 8, forget about it.
Originally posted by 123V
Someone who has a had an aforementioned high-low-end torque car chime in here.
Someone who has a had an aforementioned high-low-end torque car chime in here.
I stand by my position that even though you may appreciate the handling capabilities of the RX8, I think its straightline acceleration will disappoint you on a daily basis.
-Eric
Last edited by Sue Esponte; 03-05-2004 at 09:32 AM.
#22
Humpin legs and takin nam
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Clearwater, Fl
Posts: 2,433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ike, you better be careful, some of the other members might start to like you!
All hail Ike!
All hail Ike!
Originally posted by IkeWRX
Exactly how are people supposed to measure their 0-60? I mean this with the utmost respect, but obsessing about 0-60 times are for teenagers and car noobs. As for the highway roll part, with the low torque it won't jump up to a high speed like a car with more torque would, but it's a matter of milliseconds of difference when already at speed.
I'll say it before someone else comes in here and does. If you drove the car and didn't want it, and are worried about 0-60 times and how it pulls in a straight line you'd be better served looking elsewhere for your automotive needs. The RX-8 is more about handling and balance than straightline speed (christ I'm starting to sound like and RX-8 owner...).
Exactly how are people supposed to measure their 0-60? I mean this with the utmost respect, but obsessing about 0-60 times are for teenagers and car noobs. As for the highway roll part, with the low torque it won't jump up to a high speed like a car with more torque would, but it's a matter of milliseconds of difference when already at speed.
I'll say it before someone else comes in here and does. If you drove the car and didn't want it, and are worried about 0-60 times and how it pulls in a straight line you'd be better served looking elsewhere for your automotive needs. The RX-8 is more about handling and balance than straightline speed (christ I'm starting to sound like and RX-8 owner...).
#23
Just a small point.
You have to push ANY car (be it a v8, STI/Evo) to get the best out of them.
A lot of STI/EVO's have transmission problems because of the punishment their owners put onto them.
You have to push ANY car (be it a v8, STI/Evo) to get the best out of them.
A lot of STI/EVO's have transmission problems because of the punishment their owners put onto them.
#24
Grand Poobah
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: New England
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rob,
Agreed...but it's a lot easier to get a 6.9 sec 0-60 run out of an SVT Cobra than a MazdaSpeed Miata. I'd say most drivers could mash the pedal on the Cobra to hit 60 in less than 6.9, whereas it might take a better driver to elicit the quicker time from the Miata. It comes down to the car's own limits.
To me, it sounds like 123V is looking for a car that will effortlessly get to 60 in ~6 seconds. He wants low end torque and the seat of your pants feel of an ///M Coupe. I love the RX8 but it isn't "that" car.
-Eric
Agreed...but it's a lot easier to get a 6.9 sec 0-60 run out of an SVT Cobra than a MazdaSpeed Miata. I'd say most drivers could mash the pedal on the Cobra to hit 60 in less than 6.9, whereas it might take a better driver to elicit the quicker time from the Miata. It comes down to the car's own limits.
To me, it sounds like 123V is looking for a car that will effortlessly get to 60 in ~6 seconds. He wants low end torque and the seat of your pants feel of an ///M Coupe. I love the RX8 but it isn't "that" car.
-Eric
#25
Blue By You
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 8,717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by RobDickinson
Just a small point.
You have to push ANY car (be it a v8, STI/Evo) to get the best out of them.
A lot of STI/EVO's have transmission problems because of the punishment their owners put onto them.
Just a small point.
You have to push ANY car (be it a v8, STI/Evo) to get the best out of them.
A lot of STI/EVO's have transmission problems because of the punishment their owners put onto them.