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Swap to end all swaps

Old 11-28-2015, 01:32 PM
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Here's a link to the last video. Project coming close to completion. Tune and test videos will follow.

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Old 11-30-2015, 10:16 AM
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excited for this!!
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Old 12-07-2015, 12:41 PM
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Excited about the potential for an emission legal swap.
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Old 01-07-2016, 03:19 PM
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Don't forget to reach out to Carlos Lopez and his team to get put on the waiting list! The sooner the better!
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Old 01-07-2016, 05:10 PM
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Subscribed...And very interested...
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Old 01-08-2016, 12:30 PM
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I've been watching alot of his videos lately, very informative and detailed. They're long, but definitely worth watching the whole way through
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Old 01-19-2016, 08:14 PM
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Just a quick update on the progress of the swap to end all swaps.

We have worked out the positioning of the computer box in the engine bay - shifted it to the right slightly by gaining a little slack where the rear wire harness enters the box to allow room for the K&N intake to be positioned where the box used to sit. Made a hole in the sheet metal cross member for the upper radiator line of the front mounted aluminum radiator. Lower radiator line has plenty of room underneath. No need to modify the thermostat housing as there is no interference with radiator hoses or the OMP with Turbo Charge outlet clocked in the 6:00 O'clock position. No need for the plastic expansion tank either since the radiator doesn't sit lower than the highest water level in the engine. Working on air ducting from the lower front grill openings direct to the intercooler. Removed the plastic grill which blocks half the airflow to the front mounted aluminum radiator and replaced it with diamond SS grill cut to fit all openings. Building a custom inter-cooler with inlet on the bottom and outlet on the top towards the middle. We are relocating the battery to the right side of engine bay next to main fuse box. Using a Shurikan reserve power AGM battery that has very small profile (want maximum air flow for inter-cooler with minimal obstructions).

We have been working with some of the best in the after-market performance business including Andy at Adaptronic who will be monitoring the telemetry live and participating in the tuning when we are ready to fire it up. Should result in some killer OTS maps for different set-ups. Also been discussing with Elliot at turbosource casting the custom made exhaust manifold for the kit and using the popular TDX turbochargers (TDX57 or 61 with To4E compressor cover with wastegate welded to the top to accomodate our low-mount position of the turbocharger). The TDX57 is ideal for the 350-450 RWHP range while the TDX61 for the 450-550 RWHP range. Here's a short video of a dyno pull with a 550 HP TDX61 in an FD:

Editing the latest project turbo RX8 video and will be uploading it soon to website/youtube channel showing all of the above accomplishments.

We are getting closer to finishing the build hopefully before gas prices start to go back up.
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Old 01-20-2016, 12:08 PM
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"Swap to end all swaps"

Now I want to do a swap just to make this statement wrong.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:56 AM
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It's a catchy title, but it suggests thoughtless hyperbole . . . . . that I hope doesn't extend to anything else written here.
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Old 01-21-2016, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by runningmann View Post
Excited about the potential for an emission legal swap.
An older engine will never be "emission legal" as federal DOT requires all engine swaps to be from the same or newer model car, and to include all the factory emissions components from the swapped car. You can only hope they don't look or don't know the difference.

In other words...
Putting an RX8 S2 engine in an S1 would be legal, but not an S1 engine in an S2. This also includes REW, RE, T2, etc...
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Old 01-22-2016, 12:07 AM
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Think the issue is local emissions not federal, but I could be wrong on that.
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Old 01-22-2016, 04:39 AM
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This question on emissions is interesting to some of us in the UK, where people either do an RX8 turbo conversion from scratch, as I'm doing, or buy a kit from the US; no-one here makes a turbo conversion kit for RX8s and I know of only one person who makes one for RX7s. Currently there are no limitations on changing engines between cars but the EU has for some time now been discussing a law that will allow only manufacturer-approved items to be fitted to cars, thus at a stroke wiping out most of the aftermarket industry.

Every car 3 years or older has to pass and annual vehicle inspection, the Ministry of Transport test universally called 'the MOT'. The emissions part of the MOT is the same for both RX7s and RX8s as follows:
Idling at 770-870 RPM: max CO2 of 0.5% by volume.
Fast idle at 2450-2550 RPM: max CO2 of 0.3% by volume, max HC of 200 ppm and Lambda of 0.97-1.03.
Some areas are allowed to issue penalties from roadside tests but rarely do so on cars, so I'll be running without a cat and fitting one just for the MOT.

Although there are very few RX8 13B REW swaps here - I know of only 2 completed and 2 in progress - we can use info from RX7 owners. For example, I know there is a cheat on Apexi PFCs that can be used to temporarily lower a 13B REW's emissions at chosen RPMs. I will check what an Adaptronic can do before changing to one.

BTW the annual 'road tax' over here is based on EU emissions test CO2 levels. That test can be fiddled in more ways than the US one can, particularly for Diesels. As a result, my R3 is hit with the top rate of around $800 per year whereas my mate 2 doors down with an Audi Diesel pays nothing despite his car producing more damaging emissions. A concession means that most S1 cars pay a lower rate of around $450; however, those sold after 26 Mar 06 attract the full $800 rate leading to the bizarre situation where a 2007 car can be worth less than an otherwise identical 2006 one.

Last edited by Ian_D; 01-22-2016 at 05:41 AM.
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Old 01-22-2016, 03:01 PM
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Yeah that's what I was thinking that you're not really changing the engine, same manufacturer same engine design if when tested it meets the required emissions under either Rx7 or RX8 requirements the legality of whether or not it's a hybrid of both shouldn't matter in that case. Something else just occurred to me this is the front plate correct? So given that essentially the engine is still OEM no matter what, there is no restriction on internals or parts exchanges they are both 13b's so since that's the case there should be no issue with this hybrid as long as it meets emission standards when tested. They don't restrict parts like intakes etc, and externally that's all you can see that is different in appearance.
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Old 01-30-2016, 06:19 PM
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@Ian_D: I am in the same situation as you, I am willing to do this swap and am very very interested in it. But I have to look at emissions aswell, but I am sure it can be worked out, I just found out the other day, rotary powered cars can have a slightly higher margin on all values than other cars, at least here in Belgium.

My other concern is to "hide" the fact that I swapped engines. We arent allowed engine mods here, other than a CAI ... But I'll figure that one out aswell.

Hoping to get more info on this swap very soon!
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Old 01-31-2016, 09:25 PM
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Technically you're not changing engines, that's part of the beauty of it. They'd have to look really closely, but you are adding a turbo.
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Old 02-01-2016, 06:02 AM
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What exhaust size & make are you going for?
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Old 02-01-2016, 02:57 PM
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No idea yet. I am running RE Amemiya exhaust and BHR midpipe at the moment. Just need more info and details on the swap before I can start deciding stuff :D
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Old 02-16-2016, 11:31 AM
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Any reason why I dont get answers via email? I already mailed a couple of times, first time being somewhere around a month ago.
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Old 02-16-2016, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Knet View Post
Any reason why I dont get answers via email? I already mailed a couple of times, first time being somewhere around a month ago.
I didn't get a response either. Got a 'been on vacation' response at first. I followed up and nothing.
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Old 02-16-2016, 08:51 PM
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FL Throtle pedal assembly

I was told to use a throtel pedal from a 93 rx7 for my rx8 swap but its very hard to find. What would be my best option?
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Old 02-18-2016, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Quicker10u View Post
I didn't get a response either. Got a 'been on vacation' response at first. I followed up and nothing.
Not sure why you are not getting a response by e-mail as
Carlos personally answers all e-mails sent through the website clrmotorsports.com or to his personal e-mail at [email protected].

Alternatively you can contact me directly at [email protected] or post a question here on the thread and it will be answered right away.

Thanks.

Richard
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Old 02-18-2016, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Ian_D View Post
It's a catchy title, but it suggests thoughtless hyperbole . . . . . that I hope doesn't extend to anything else written here.
We didn't name this thread, although the person who did had it right. No exaggeration is intended or implied. The proof will be available for any doubters to take a test drive in the project car.
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Old 02-19-2016, 04:05 AM
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Richard, my comment was written tongue-in-cheek, but now you've gone and done it. . . . . watch out for hubris.

Seriously though, I'm relaxed about anyone talking up their project, even a commercially-aimed one such as this, and hope this one goes well. However, if I take your comment literally, on what I've seen of this project, and acknowledging that I'm no expert, I doubt it will be the 'best' in any of the individual categories I see for such swaps (cost, max power, performance and usability on roads, performance and usability on track, beauty, and design excellence); for example, I think you have a tough challenge to get near the performance and usability on roads and the beauty of firecran's swap. Of course, I may be wrong here and it may get my top award of 'best all-rounder' from its scores over all those categories; only time will tell.

Also, I'm intrigued by some of your comments on your 20 Jan post above. Have you got any images of the engine bay as it stands now?

Last edited by Ian_D; 02-19-2016 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 02-20-2016, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Ian_D View Post
Richard, my comment was written tongue-in-cheek, but now you've gone and done it. . . . . watch out for hubris.

Seriously though, I'm relaxed about anyone talking up their project, even a commercially-aimed one such as this, and hope this one goes well. However, if I take your comment literally, on what I've seen of this project, and acknowledging that I'm no expert, I doubt it will be the 'best' in any of the individual categories I see for such swaps (cost, max power, performance and usability on roads, performance and usability on track, beauty, and design excellence); for example, I think you have a tough challenge to get near the performance and usability on roads and the beauty of firecran's swap. Of course, I may be wrong here and it may get my top award of 'best all-rounder' from its scores over all those categories; only time will tell.

Also, I'm intrigued by some of your comments on your 20 Jan post above. Have you got any images of the engine bay as it stands now?

I appreciate your comments, positive or negative, there is always something to learn or teach from engaging in debate about this topic. I know pride comes before a fall, and maybe you misunderstood my comment, I meant no exaggeration was intended or implied on our part by the title of this thread which was started by Galo - a customer of CLR. We are most humble in our work and believe the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Anyway I took a look at Firecran's build thread. Looks like he got the job done right at Banzai Racing using NLS mods with Xcessive LIM and other quality parts. The car looks fantastic.

Its kind of hard to compare pricing since I didn't see any final price on Firecran's thread. To be fair, We don't have final pricing figured out either at this point. From the looks of the parts list however I would imagine his build ran into the 15K range easily if not more.

Once we have a finished project car we will see how much interest there is and hopefully will be able to get the price down as much as possible and cast a lot of the main components of the kit we are putting together.

When I looked at Banzai's website, (note to mods - I put the link for purposes of comparison, I'm not affiliated with the linked website, so feel free to edit it out if you deem it violates the RX8 clubs TOS) I noticed that their "stage 5 build" of the RE is "no longer available" so their only "stage 5" option for the RX8 is to rebuild the Renesis and they sell it for $5300 with a $1000 core charge. (to compare that motor to what we are building is comparing apples and oranges) Porting is another $600 and their rebuild consists mostly of replacing the seals with Viton (no balancing, clearancing, 3 mm apex seals, low compression rotors, lightening, etc that enable you to run 500+ HP reliably. CLR charges about $2800 for those machine services that turn the REW engine into a capable track ready beast - like we have done to the project car's engine) The fact that the REW stage 5 build is no longer available kind of makes it a bit difficult to compare Firecran's build since his engine is no longer available. I do see that they have a stage 4 RE build for $4500, so I guess that is a viable option...but again look at what the build consists of. Bottom line, your biggest expense on a swap besides the turbo set up is the engine you go with. A fully built track ready high performance engine like the one we built is an expensive proposition. You could get a JDM REW for $1700 and rebuild it with fresh seals mild porting etc for about what Banzai charges for their stage 4 rebuild and be good to go up to 350 HP reliably. You want double those numbers expect to pay double the price.

As far as the other factors you mention in your comment that you doubt our build will be the "best" in all catagories, but "time will tell" - I agree with you that time will indeed tell. We are striving to build a solid product that will be both economical, practical, esthetically beautiful etc. whether or not its the "best" we will leave that up to the enthusiasts to decide. I will say this though, Firecran mentions his dyno results were around 300 HP and similar torque #s. Our daily driver build which will only be pushing the engine to about 70% of its capacity will be closer to 400HP. We capped it there because the RX8 transmission can't handle much more than that, but once it lets go, an RX7 transmission swap will open the door to raising the boost to hit 500HP or more on pump gas. If you want to go all out and run E85 then with the Flex Fuel adapter working in conjunction with the adaptronic Select ECU for the RX8 series 1 you could push the HP up to 750. I'd say those #s would make for a suitable track car for sub 10 second 1/4 mile runs.

The adaptronic isn't cheap, but from what I have seen so far playing around with it on my NA RX8 to get a feel for it and see what it can do for the Renesis motor (besides fuel and timing it can control the APV's when they open up, the cooling fans - when they turn on, for example) it really has a lot of features that most stand alones don't have, which enables swaps to retain the amenities the RX8 came with.

I guess one advantage to Firecran's build is that with the turbo mounted up and forward like that it might enable fitment in right hand drive RX8's. We are going to have to figure out a way to accomplish this as well as we are getting a lot of interest from UK, AUS and NZ.

As far as pics of the engine bay, there is a part 13 to the build videos on my youtube channel showing where we are at. I've been talking to Carlos about dropping the engine in one of the other future turbo cars we have sitting in the parking lot with the stock radiator and putting in a front mount inter-cooler to prove the concept since I get the sense many people probably don't want to over-engineer the swap by switching out radiators if they can avoid it, especially if they are not looking for 400+ HP cars...

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Old 02-21-2016, 02:53 AM
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Rich, thanks. It's good to have a bit of banter and friendly discussion of our designs. Thinking again, there is another category for my list, that of professionalism of the build, originally buried in 'design'. I've only looked at a couple of his videos, but that is enough for me to see that Carlos is a front runner, probably the best because showing the videos is a bonus.

Firecran bought his car with a conversion already done. He's since modded it with the big EFR.

As you realise, the main issue with RHD is that the steering column restricts the exhaust manifold; how much it matters depends on turbo positioning and, mainly due to what I am trying to do rather than the restriction itself, I've spent countless hours finding and tweaking my design. There are possible secondary issues, such as protecting the brake fluid reservoir from heat.

I'm up to my ears helping my elderly parents move home so may not have time to look at your info for a day or 2.
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