Swap to end all swaps
 

Carlos Lopez of CLR Motorsports in Miami is currently working on the ultimate rotary swap for RX-8's. Carlos is an extremely well known rotary mechanic with an incredible amount of experience building high powered rotaries for racing and street.

The key to this swap is you will be able to run the OEM ECU to have all electronics work. The videos on YouTube are extremely detailed and informative.

When this is ready, the rx-8 community for swaps will be changed forever. If anyone is interested at all, I'd recommend watching the video series. Here is the first installment:

This (quite a few of his videos actually) is posted elsewhere on here already.

Ok.

These are fairly new, but it would not surprise me if someone linked to them already. These were just posted in the last month or so. The 7th video was posted just 2 weeks ago.

Should have engine in car with proof of concept in the next couple or weeks.

There are many ways to tackle the earlier 13B swap.:beer05:

Just depends on what you want and what you don't want.

.

I'm an RX-7 guy. Don't claim knowledge on RX-8's though I think they're pretty awesome. I'm sure there is a number of ways to get the 13B motor in an RX-8. This seems like one unique way to keep the OEM ECU. Not sure there are others. I've gotten to know Carlos through the years and I know he is truly dedicated to the rotary engine and making it better. Just putting this out there as what seems like a pretty good option for people wanting their 8's with more long term and reliable power.

Carlos is the man no doubt.
With the cheap prices of used RX-8s only means there will be more swaps to come.

.

Latest update. Motor nearly done about ready to go in car and test for proof of concept.

#norenesis

Gotta love that EFR sweetness!!!

.

I guess theyre gonna find out the oil filter sucks there. Omp? Aint got no time for that...

Nice setup retaining stock functions.

Only thing I'm not a fan of is the whole counter weight machining, I think it kinda makes it proprietary, the whole rotating balance needs to be matched and balanced, and you can only use counterweights machined by him after that. I saw a thread on 7club a while back where someone machined the inside of the front renesis cover to accept the REW counterweight on the block.

Basically cutting off a section inside the Renesis front cover. Another thing I didn't see him mentioning is what oil pan he's gonna use? I don't believe renesis or Rew oil pan will fit with the hybrid cover/block setup.

EDIT: This method right here. http://www.rx7club.com/old-school-ot.../#post11011248

That OMP position sensor is super close to the turbo inlet tho I'm guessing they aren't gonna run a filter?

Depends what you want to modify.
Many variations to complete this swap using different front covers and keep stock functions.

REW oil pan fits fine... just one bolt hole does not line up and not used.
Not a big deal...my oil pan doesn't leak without it.

Why would you want to a air filter down there next to the engine/radiator sucking in hot air? :scratchhe
A TID out to the front opening would be fine.

.

^This :yesnod:

Ah good to know REW oil pan fits, I honestly think machining the renesis front cover might be easier bc with his method you'll have to get the whole assembly balanced. More work I guess. And yeah I later realized they would prob have to run a intake from the turbo inlet out to the front. That manifold is short.

It's a S4 TII manifold.
I think he is just using it for mocking up turbo position but who knows.
S4, S5 TIIs have a different flange style to the more common T4 footprint.

.

That BWR turbo was only used for the pic.....

If you watch the whole series of videos (very lengthy but thorough), the turbo to be used will be a hybrid TII housing with Holset internals. The aim being economy since both are cheap and easy to get, but will support around 380 hp....(don't quote me, it's on the video). Yes, machining needs to be done to fit the Holset internals , but any competent shop can do that, or there are turbo alternatives.

Sure the rotating assembly will need to be balanced, but people will be able to pick the parts of the kit they want depending on their level of skill.

I see now there are many ways to do the swap. However this one is going to retain the sock ECU and various functions that seem to be an issue with many swaps.

Pictures, video and dyno will tell the tale...soon

I'm a big holset fan...I have 3 sitting around the house. 2 HX35's and 1 HX40

Hey Galo I was planning on starting a build thread on these forums but it looks like you beat us to it. :lol::lol::lol: I'll just hijack your thread instead. :rollingla

To address everybody's questions about the counter-weight, yes it is a proprietary set up. After all CLR is in business to make money and probably will patent it as well so that other companies don't reverse engineer our product and under-sell us. We will have a basic kit available soon with all the necessary brackets and machined parts for the do it yourself crowd who have 13B motors and their own turbos etc. at a reasonable price. We will also have drop in kits with all the machining done to the internals like you see in the videos for those who have an RX8 they want to upgrade. We are building turn key cars (both 1st and 2nd gen RX8's) with all the upgrades done including the fuel pumps and lines, exhaust, suspension etc. to make the car handle like a dream. Not only will we have kits for the 1st gen RX8s but also the 2nd gens as well. From what I have investigated to far, the transmissions on the 2nd gens are much stronger. The fuel system is also better. The 2nd gen's ECU is going to be an issue however as we will need to tap into the wiring harness instead of just plugging in the adaptronic to the stock ECU like we are doing on the 1st gens.

Anybody serious enough to build a purpose "built" engine is going to want to at least balance it. (they also should consider scalloping the rotors, lighten the rotors, clearance the rotors, use 3 mm apex seals, port the engine and do the cooling mods to the housings as well).

Mazda has one counter-weight for all REW engines. One part # fits all. All we have to do for those running the bone stock REW build (not cosmo motor like in the link above posted by GK1707) is machine the counter-weight we are using to match the stock REW rotor weight. Our design doesn't require you to blow a hole in the front cover that needs to be welded up just to accept the REW counter-weight. Of course your going to have to be conservative with the boost with a stock REW set up so as not to implode the REW rotors because they cannot withstand the kind of boost we plan on running with the project car we are building.

Our goal is to make the swap as trouble free as possible so that it is a reliable hi-boost drop in plug and play deal. We don't have to put the turbo on top of the engine by the radiator where heat build up becomes a big issue because we are not using the stock RX8 mounts like Chris is doing in his build thread on the RX7 forum. (Thanks for the link by the way its the first time I've seen it and I'm sure it will be well worth the read through.) From my first glance at it, he is running into many interference points we don't have like the alternator. I do like the mods he did to the stock OEM hood for ventilation. I had a carbon fiber Seibon vented hood (see pic) that I sold with one of the stock RX8's we rebuilt that cost $1200, but it really wasn't that much lighter and I prefer the clean stock hood's look anyway.

You can see all the videos on our build on the projects page of our website:

www.clrmotorsports.com

Also on our you tube channel.

Rich,

I was just setting up the stage for you. Since there is only links to the video you can always start a new thread with even a more grandiose title as I'm sure once you have a product it will be a game changer in regards to RX-8 rotary swaps. Can't wait for it!!

I actually like your title - swap to end all swaps. It truly is the holy grail of RX8 swaps if we succeed as we hope to do here shortly.

Good to see some feedback from you guys on here. It is a very nice setup and it seems problem free. Thanks for addressing the benefit of the counterweight machining vs the front cover machining. Mainly what I was skeptical about. Looking forward to seeing this kit thru and finished.

I also look forward to your tests and results. As one who has personally seen just about every rotary engine mod and advancement for street and track, over the past 43 years (and spent the bucks on my share of them) ,this looks like a quality build and solution. Cheers !

Pretty interested to see pricing on the various options.

Hey tylerdurden, (any relation to Zero Hedge?:bowdown:) Carlos and I are working on putting together a checklist of parts that you will need to build this setup. We plan on providing everything you will need in an affordable kit. Of course if you want the full package which includes a fully built FD motor with the low compression rotors, 3 mm apex seals, fully lightened and balanced etc. and turbo setup with the Adaptronic computer and all the brackets and machining for a drop in plug and play set up like what you see in the video

This price goal is very reasonable when you consider that just the turbo set up for the renesis engine is being sold online for around $6800. The computer is $1500, a stock renesis motor nowadays will set you back over $4000 etc. A fully built FD motor will set you back around $10000.

We are building turn key cars with all the fuel mods, exhaust, mods, suspension mods and the FD built motors for less than what the RX-8 originally sold for new which was around $30,000.

Considering what you are getting - a car with a brand new motor with well over twice the horsepower that has all the stock functions and is reliable and can handle whatever you throw at it, they will be a bargain.

We are also planning on building 2nd Gen RX-8's with the set up as well but of course they will probably run over $30,000 based on what the stock 2009 and up are selling for.

If you want to do it yourself and save money, if you have the skills and tools you could probably build the hybrid motor for less than what it would cost to just replace the renesis with a factory remanufactured motor. We will supply all the custom built brackets and front cover mods and counter-weight in a bare bones kit for the DIY crowd.

I will update once we get to work installing the motor in the car. Carlos has race motor commitments he is currently working on so we are hoping to have this done by the first couple weeks of the new year - or maybe sooner.

I am prepping 4 cars to accept the motor and will be updating the website shortly putting them for sale as is with the fuel system upgrades, LS2 coils, exhaust mods, suspension mods, etc for those who want to get started right away and be ready to rock and roll when we go into production. We will be keeping one for a demo car so you can come and take a test drive and be blown away. Homestead speedway is right down the street from us, so we will be taking the car to track days there for test drives. Should be a blast!

Rich

Good info, thanks.

UPDATE: Carlos and I are getting back to the grindstone on the Hybrid Turbo RX8 project this week. We will be posting updated pics and videos here, and on the website and https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.rx8...186e0d9b96.jpg

once we drop the motor in the car and fire her up.

We have 4 RX8's sitting patiently in the parking lot waiting for their turbo transformation. These cars will be listed for sale here on the forum, as well as the website once they are done.

We have just linked up a storefront to the website where we will start listing RX8 performance parts for sale. If you are hoping to join the retro rotary revolution you will need to upgrade the ignition and fuel systems of the RX8 to handle the increased power. A high speed starter will also be a nice addition. We are going to be listing a custom exhaust system as well that will maximize the power output with and without catalyst for those in emission restricted areas.

Once we complete the R&D phase of the project (hopefully in the next few weeks) and begin production, the swap kits will be listed for sale on the website

All the necessary peripherals you will need to do it yourself, like the adaptronic computer will be available on the website as well. We can do the tuning for you on the dyno so the swap will be truly plug and play.

Carlos just got back from Guyana where the Turbo RX7 he worked on and tuned set the 2nd best lap time up against 700HP AWD EVO's. He built a custom Exhaust Manifold that enabled the largest EFR Turbo they were running on the car to reach full boost at 3200 RPM.

Depending on the demand, there will probably be a lag time before we get spooled up, and begin shipping kits, so stay tuned for more frequent updates on this swap to end all swaps!



Mod Edit: Any links to websites or prices for parts for sale will not be allowed without being a Forum Vendor. Please contact Mod staff or Internet Brands if you are interested

Here's a link to the last video. Project coming close to completion. Tune and test videos will follow.

excited for this!!

Excited about the potential for an emission legal swap.

Don't forget to reach out to Carlos Lopez and his team to get put on the waiting list! The sooner the better!

Subscribed...And very interested...

I've been watching alot of his videos lately, very informative and detailed. They're long, but definitely worth watching the whole way through

Just a quick update on the progress of the swap to end all swaps.

We have worked out the positioning of the computer box in the engine bay - shifted it to the right slightly by gaining a little slack where the rear wire harness enters the box to allow room for the K&N intake to be positioned where the box used to sit. Made a hole in the sheet metal cross member for the upper radiator line of the front mounted aluminum radiator. Lower radiator line has plenty of room underneath. No need to modify the thermostat housing as there is no interference with radiator hoses or the OMP with Turbo Charge outlet clocked in the 6:00 O'clock position. No need for the plastic expansion tank either since the radiator doesn't sit lower than the highest water level in the engine. Working on air ducting from the lower front grill openings direct to the intercooler. Removed the plastic grill which blocks half the airflow to the front mounted aluminum radiator and replaced it with diamond SS grill cut to fit all openings. Building a custom inter-cooler with inlet on the bottom and outlet on the top towards the middle. We are relocating the battery to the right side of engine bay next to main fuse box. Using a Shurikan reserve power AGM battery that has very small profile (want maximum air flow for inter-cooler with minimal obstructions).

We have been working with some of the best in the after-market performance business including Andy at Adaptronic who will be monitoring the telemetry live and participating in the tuning when we are ready to fire it up. Should result in some killer OTS maps for different set-ups. Also been discussing with Elliot at turbosource casting the custom made exhaust manifold for the kit and using the popular TDX turbochargers (TDX57 or 61 with To4E compressor cover with wastegate welded to the top to accomodate our low-mount position of the turbocharger). The TDX57 is ideal for the 350-450 RWHP range while the TDX61 for the 450-550 RWHP range. Here's a short video of a dyno pull with a 550 HP TDX61 in an FD:
Editing the latest project turbo RX8 video and will be uploading it soon to website/youtube channel showing all of the above accomplishments.

We are getting closer to finishing the build hopefully before gas prices start to go back up. :)

"Swap to end all swaps"

Now I want to do a swap just to make this statement wrong.

It's a catchy title, but it suggests thoughtless hyperbole . . . . . that I hope doesn't extend to anything else written here.:FIREdevil

An older engine will never be "emission legal" as federal DOT requires all engine swaps to be from the same or newer model car, and to include all the factory emissions components from the swapped car. You can only hope they don't look or don't know the difference.

In other words...
Putting an RX8 S2 engine in an S1 would be legal, but not an S1 engine in an S2. This also includes REW, RE, T2, etc...

Think the issue is local emissions not federal, but I could be wrong on that.

This question on emissions is interesting to some of us in the UK, where people either do an RX8 turbo conversion from scratch, as I'm doing, or buy a kit from the US; no-one here makes a turbo conversion kit for RX8s and I know of only one person who makes one for RX7s. Currently there are no limitations on changing engines between cars but the EU has for some time now been discussing a law that will allow only manufacturer-approved items to be fitted to cars, thus at a stroke wiping out most of the aftermarket industry.

Every car 3 years or older has to pass and annual vehicle inspection, the Ministry of Transport test universally called 'the MOT'. The emissions part of the MOT is the same for both RX7s and RX8s as follows:
:cool: Idling at 770-870 RPM: max CO2 of 0.5% by volume.
:cool: Fast idle at 2450-2550 RPM: max CO2 of 0.3% by volume, max HC of 200 ppm and Lambda of 0.97-1.03.
Some areas are allowed to issue penalties from roadside tests but rarely do so on cars, so I'll be running without a cat and fitting one just for the MOT.

Although there are very few RX8 13B REW swaps here - I know of only 2 completed and 2 in progress - we can use info from RX7 owners. For example, I know there is a cheat on Apexi PFCs that can be used to temporarily lower a 13B REW's emissions at chosen RPMs. I will check what an Adaptronic can do before changing to one.

BTW the annual 'road tax' over here is based on EU emissions test CO2 levels. That test can be fiddled in more ways than the US one can, particularly for Diesels. As a result, my R3 is hit with the top rate of around $800 per year whereas my mate 2 doors down with an Audi Diesel pays nothing despite his car producing more damaging emissions. A concession means that most S1 cars pay a lower rate of around $450; however, those sold after 26 Mar 06 attract the full $800 rate leading to the bizarre situation where a 2007 car can be worth less than an otherwise identical 2006 one.

Yeah that's what I was thinking that you're not really changing the engine, same manufacturer same engine design if when tested it meets the required emissions under either Rx7 or RX8 requirements the legality of whether or not it's a hybrid of both shouldn't matter in that case. Something else just occurred to me this is the front plate correct? So given that essentially the engine is still OEM no matter what, there is no restriction on internals or parts exchanges they are both 13b's so since that's the case there should be no issue with this hybrid as long as it meets emission standards when tested. They don't restrict parts like intakes etc, and externally that's all you can see that is different in appearance.

@Ian_D: I am in the same situation as you, I am willing to do this swap and am very very interested in it. But I have to look at emissions aswell, but I am sure it can be worked out, I just found out the other day, rotary powered cars can have a slightly higher margin on all values than other cars, at least here in Belgium.

My other concern is to "hide" the fact that I swapped engines. We arent allowed engine mods here, other than a CAI ... But I'll figure that one out aswell.

Hoping to get more info on this swap very soon!

Technically you're not changing engines, that's part of the beauty of it. They'd have to look really closely, but you are adding a turbo.

What exhaust size & make are you going for?

No idea yet. I am running RE Amemiya exhaust and BHR midpipe at the moment. Just need more info and details on the swap before I can start deciding stuff :D

Any reason why I dont get answers via email? I already mailed a couple of times, first time being somewhere around a month ago.

I didn't get a response either. Got a 'been on vacation' response at first. I followed up and nothing.

Throtle pedal assembly
 

I was told to use a throtel pedal from a 93 rx7 for my rx8 swap but its very hard to find. What would be my best option?

Not sure why you are not getting a response by e-mail as
Carlos personally answers all e-mails sent through the website clrmotorsports.com or to his personal e-mail at clrmotorsports@gmail.com.

Alternatively you can contact me directly at richardvpa@gmail.com or post a question here on the thread and it will be answered right away.

Thanks.

Richard

We didn't name this thread, although the person who did had it right. No exaggeration is intended or implied. The proof will be available for any doubters to take a test drive in the project car.

Richard, my comment was written tongue-in-cheek, but now you've gone and done it. . . . . watch out for hubris. :)

Seriously though, I'm relaxed about anyone talking up their project, even a commercially-aimed one such as this, and hope this one goes well. However, if I take your comment literally, on what I've seen of this project, and acknowledging that I'm no expert, I doubt it will be the 'best' in any of the individual categories I see for such swaps (cost, max power, performance and usability on roads, performance and usability on track, beauty, and design excellence); for example, I think you have a tough challenge to get near the performance and usability on roads and the beauty of firecran's swap. Of course, I may be wrong here and it may get my top award of 'best all-rounder' from its scores over all those categories; only time will tell.

Also, I'm intrigued by some of your comments on your 20 Jan post above. Have you got any images of the engine bay as it stands now?

I appreciate your comments, positive or negative, there is always something to learn or teach from engaging in debate about this topic. I know pride comes before a fall, and maybe you misunderstood my comment, I meant no exaggeration was intended or implied on our part by the title of this thread which was started by Galo - a customer of CLR. We are most humble in our work and believe the proof is in the pudding so to speak.

Anyway I took a look at Firecran's build thread. Looks like he got the job done right at Banzai Racing using NLS mods with Xcessive LIM and other quality parts. The car looks fantastic.

Its kind of hard to compare pricing since I didn't see any final price on Firecran's thread. To be fair, We don't have final pricing figured out either at this point. From the looks of the parts list however I would imagine his build ran into the 15K range easily if not more.

Once we have a finished project car we will see how much interest there is and hopefully will be able to get the price down as much as possible and cast a lot of the main components of the kit we are putting together.

When I looked at Banzai's website, (note to mods - I put the link for purposes of comparison, I'm not affiliated with the linked website, so feel free to edit it out if you deem it violates the RX8 clubs TOS) I noticed that their "stage 5 build" of the RE is "no longer available" so their only "stage 5" option for the RX8 is to rebuild the Renesis and they sell it for $5300 with a $1000 core charge. (to compare that motor to what we are building is comparing apples and oranges) Porting is another $600 and their rebuild consists mostly of replacing the seals with Viton (no balancing, clearancing, 3 mm apex seals, low compression rotors, lightening, etc that enable you to run 500+ HP reliably. CLR charges about $2800 for those machine services that turn the REW engine into a capable track ready beast - like we have done to the project car's engine) The fact that the REW stage 5 build is no longer available kind of makes it a bit difficult to compare Firecran's build since his engine is no longer available. I do see that they have a stage 4 RE build for $4500, so I guess that is a viable option...but again look at what the build consists of. Bottom line, your biggest expense on a swap besides the turbo set up is the engine you go with. A fully built track ready high performance engine like the one we built is an expensive proposition. You could get a JDM REW for $1700 and rebuild it with fresh seals mild porting etc for about what Banzai charges for their stage 4 rebuild and be good to go up to 350 HP reliably. You want double those numbers expect to pay double the price.

As far as the other factors you mention in your comment that you doubt our build will be the "best" in all catagories, but "time will tell" - I agree with you that time will indeed tell. We are striving to build a solid product that will be both economical, practical, esthetically beautiful etc. whether or not its the "best" we will leave that up to the enthusiasts to decide. I will say this though, Firecran mentions his dyno results were around 300 HP and similar torque #s. Our daily driver build which will only be pushing the engine to about 70% of its capacity will be closer to 400HP. We capped it there because the RX8 transmission can't handle much more than that, but once it lets go, an RX7 transmission swap will open the door to raising the boost to hit 500HP or more on pump gas. If you want to go all out and run E85 then with the Flex Fuel adapter working in conjunction with the adaptronic Select ECU for the RX8 series 1 you could push the HP up to 750. I'd say those #s would make for a suitable track car for sub 10 second 1/4 mile runs.

The adaptronic isn't cheap, but from what I have seen so far playing around with it on my NA RX8 to get a feel for it and see what it can do for the Renesis motor (besides fuel and timing it can control the APV's when they open up, the cooling fans - when they turn on, for example) it really has a lot of features that most stand alones don't have, which enables swaps to retain the amenities the RX8 came with.

I guess one advantage to Firecran's build is that with the turbo mounted up and forward like that it might enable fitment in right hand drive RX8's. We are going to have to figure out a way to accomplish this as well as we are getting a lot of interest from UK, AUS and NZ.

As far as pics of the engine bay, there is a part 13 to the build videos on my youtube channel showing where we are at. I've been talking to Carlos about dropping the engine in one of the other future turbo cars we have sitting in the parking lot with the stock radiator and putting in a front mount inter-cooler to prove the concept since I get the sense many people probably don't want to over-engineer the swap by switching out radiators if they can avoid it, especially if they are not looking for 400+ HP cars...
:tank:
:score:

Rich, thanks. It's good to have a bit of banter and friendly discussion of our designs. Thinking again, there is another category for my list, that of professionalism of the build, originally buried in 'design'. I've only looked at a couple of his videos, but that is enough for me to see that Carlos is a front runner, probably the best because showing the videos is a bonus.

Firecran bought his car with a conversion already done. He's since modded it with the big EFR.

As you realise, the main issue with RHD is that the steering column restricts the exhaust manifold; how much it matters depends on turbo positioning and, mainly due to what I am trying to do rather than the restriction itself, I've spent countless hours finding and tweaking my design. There are possible secondary issues, such as protecting the brake fluid reservoir from heat.

I'm up to my ears helping my elderly parents move home so may not have time to look at your info for a day or 2.