Grog

iTrader: (5)

What's up, RX8club. I've been lurking your forums for quite a few months now, and recently joined. Within the next couple of days, I may finally be getting my RX-8. Just thought I'd tell you guys about it.

Here's the basics:
2007 Mazda RX-8 (Pearly White or whatever the hell it's called)
6 Speed Manual
9,128 miles
$16,000 (without tags)

Awesome deal, right? The car is in excellent condition. I spent damn near a half hour inspecting every inch of it, and aside from the mandatory rust on the bolts and exhaust, it's spotless. Whoever previously owned it was obviously an enthusiast that babied it.

Here's where I need your opinions.

I'm seventeen years old. Over the years I've managed to save enough money to pay for half of my first car, and my dad has agreed to paying for the other half. This car will be used for daily driving, and I'd like to know what you guys think about that. I'm well aware that the 8 is a gas guzzler, but it's nothing to fret over. I plan on putting the car to use, though, and I'm hoping that at 9,000 miles, it'll last me at least a good 8 years.

Another thing that concerns me is not having a space in the garage to keep it in. There's a pretty good chance that I'll end up getting one of the two spaces, seeing how one of the cars in there will soon be sold, but how many of you leave your 8s out on your driveway or just outside in general? I live in Maryland, and weather out here isn't anything out of the ordinary. It's actually pretty boring; it doesn't rain too much, and snow is pretty hit-or-miss. Should I worry?

How many of you have manual transmission 8s as your daily drivers? How many of you had an 8 as your first car? I just want your guys' opinions as I come closer to making my final decision.

ArXate

You sound intelligent and responsible for a teenager, which is a good sign. Seems your family has money and your parents can back you up if you need the financial help.

The members of this forum are most concerned with "wishy washy" teenagers with low attention to detail, which is deadly for the rotary, because the RX8 will require you to be diligent with oil changes, oil level monitoring, adding oil. Aside from a higher gas bill, you'll need to have a little bit in the bank to replace ignition coils ($35 X 4 coils) and spark plugs ($20 X 4) every 30,000 to 50,000 miles. And possibly also have the motivation to replace these yourself so you don't have to pay labor charge. You'll also need to be responsible and patient enough to not start and stop the car (could lead to flooding) and to be gentle until the engine warms up. Obviously, most teenagers (and women) aren't motivated to do this. And end up trashing their engine.

all are used

iTrader: (1)

the 8 is a wonderful car, and I think it's fine for a daily driver. that being said, when I got my first car I drove like an idiot, so fortunately I started with a truck with no power at all. the car itself you speak of sounds like a good deal, and provided you are more mature than I was so many years ago it should be fine. I don't have the luxury of a garage to keep mine in, but I didn't let that keep me from getting one. Sure these cars deserve a roof over their head at night, but sometimes that just isn't an option.

Grog

iTrader: (5)

I'm not mechanically inclined at all, but there's a good chance of that changing by the time I hit 30k miles. I also understand that routine oil maintenance is essential when it comes to rotaries and I'd never neglect my first car (Especially one as beautiful as the 8). To be honest, I really want to baby the hell out of this car just as the previous owner did; I desperately need a hobby.

Is there anything else I should worry about as far as treating the engine goes? I already know about engine flooding, what causes it, and how to prevent it, so I'm good on that.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

You do sounds like you are ahead of the curve.

On your other points, I have a WWP, 2005 GT MT, and grew up in Laurel MD, and daily drive my 8 year round. I wouldn't take it over any other car. Even in heavy traffic, I know without a doubt I would be worse off in another car. And I have one of the heaviest stock clutches in 8s. Enough so that dealers and other owners comment on it constantly. The 8 just makes being on the road so much better.

I know how MD doesn't get much snow usually, then gets hammered every 3-6 years. So movement wise, you can probably survive the winters with 1 set of tires. If you exercise some of the intelligence that you have peaking out from behind the letters, I would recommend working on getting a set of alternate rims and winter tires. The rims can be complete garbage (mine are mismatched ), but it makes any winter condition drivable, and even fun! (as long as you are still clearing the snow with your air dam, but if you aren't, no one else should be on the road there anyway, the government would probably be shut down) If you take this route, buy them sometime between now and September, when the prices start climbing on them again. Get them in the summer when no one is looking and you can pay significantly less.

Cold itself is nothing to worry about unless your ignition system is weak. Stay on top of your ignition system (learn to subconsciously pay attention to the stability of the revs and how smooth, or not, the power band is, etc... Start feeling that hesistation and roughness, and it doesn't go away with WOT runs to redline, your ignition system is starting the downhill. Doesn't mean it will go right away, but the longer you wait, the greater and greater your flood risk, power loss, and mileage drop.


To be brutally honest though, we often make heavy attempts to steer kids (sorry, you are ) away from the 8 as a first car. First cars are usually neglected, abused, and/or wrecked. And we don't imply that it would all be your fault either. My first car last 2.5 months, ending it's life with an SUV landing on it's hood while I was stopped. **** happens. How prepared are you to lose a car that you will probably form an emotional attachment to? (it happens. Everyone either loves or hates this car)

Abusing the 8 doesn't have the same definition as other cars, but, with no real road experience, driving the 8 properly is insanely easy to land you in significant legal trouble. My first day driving my 8 I was up to 123 on I-70 winding through the mountains without any straights before I got woken up from heaven by passing another car like it was standing still, glanced down at the speedo and was shocked to realize how fast I was. Most owners have this same type of experience. If it happens at a bad point, in MD, you are talking arrestable. In most places it's arrestable.

Again, you seem smarter than most teenagers that come on here, and with the money saved up for it, more responsible and probably would take better care of it, but just some things to keep in mind. You can find a great Miata for a few thousand that will help teach you about maintenance while still getting the same handling without nearly the speed potential.

Regardless of your decision, I highly highly highly recommend you get to local SCCA autocross events. Seriously. Even 1 event will help improve your driving. Keep doing it for fun and education though, it's the best bang for the buck that you can have in your own car. Driver mods before car mods.

Good luck.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Most problems that crop up in the 8 start very small and get serious because they aren't addressed. For example coils start going bad, plugs then start getting fouled from excess unburnt fuel, unburnt fuel rapidly degrades cat life, clogged cat can over stress the seals and over cook the O2 sensors, localize heat too much which accelerates oil breakdown and increases engine wear...

Most of the owners that remain trouble free are trouble free because they keep on top of their oil changes, their oil level, and their ignition health.

Then again, that stuff is like taking cholesterol medication and regular exercise for your heart. They help prevent problems, but it doesn't eliminate risk and it doesn't mean that you still won't die of a heart attack. Mazda factory QC over the engine tolerances has improved quite a bit, but it is entirely possible to be sitting on an engine waiting for any chance it can to fail. It's also entirely possible to completely ignore all the recommendations and get 160,000+ miles out of the engine (one owner came on here thinking her engine was blown, come to find out it was just badly flooded, but she didn't know anything about rotaries and still had it healthy at 160,000 without doing what she should have)


It very is much like a heart, or lungs, or whatnot. All you can do is reduce the risk of failure.


Cooling and Lubrication are 99% of the battle to keep these engines healthy. Mazda didn't have enough of either from the factory, a flaw that puts us behind the curve. Several mods that are common can go a long way towards improving engine live. Namely the ReMedy water pump and thermostat, BHR ignition upgrade, COBB AccessPORT (for the part that allows you to monitor temps and set a lower threshhold for the radiator fans). Even removing the cat and going with a midpipe helps I think, as it helps keep heat away from the engine, and you don't have to worry about a clogged cat causing more problems. My engine was perfect until my cat failed, and it's never been right since. In spec, not replaceable point, but not back to the above average that it was.



That being said, I had the engine fail in my 2002 Corolla. THAT was a shock. A massive shock, one I took years recovering from financially. Completely unexpected. I would 100% take the failure I know is possible than one that I have no idea might be coming.

That plus the Rotary is cheaper to pull and rebuild than any piston engine. Even a rebuilt engine bought whole is cheaper. But you also have the warranty. 100,000 miles, 8 years for the engine core. (if you are in that and outside powertrain, a "free engine" will still cost you ~$500 for all the fluids, gaskets, etc... associated with the engine, but not part of it)


Mazda made the 8 incredibly easy to work on, and insanely expensive to get someone else to work on. Coils are 20 minutes for the untrained with a 10mm socket wrench and $140 in parts, $300 is the lowest I have seen a dealer charge, $500-$700 is common. Plugs are $80 in parts and 10 minutes for the untrained with a plug socket and a few ratchet extensions. Dealers are $300-$500. Plug wires are $110 to $300 (depending on quality), and less than 5 minutes to change, no tools needed (though removing the intake makes it easier) A full brake job at a dealer, or just about any other shop, will run you $1200+, $500 or less doing it yourself. Even other stuff like suspension components (struts, springs, sway bars, end links) are really easy to remove and install compared to other cars. Engine components are too, like the water pump, thermostat, alternator, air pump. If you need something replaced, there is probably already a DIY on here, and tons of friendly advice to help you along the way, plus Columbia MD is a hot-bed of 8s, lots of local help. Most of us don't need much of an excuse to find a reason to wrench on an 8. We just love it. Beer is a common currency for help, but you have 4 years to go before you can start legally trading in it

Grog

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for taking the time to type all of that up, RIWWP. I read all of it thoroughly

A lot of the work I plan on doing to my 8 seems pretty simple, but I'm just afraid of screwing something up. Even the simplest of things to install, such as the Axial Flow Short Shifter (Probably one of the first modifications I'll be making) make me nervous, since I've never in my life put a wrench to a car. Here's to hoping that I'll do alright learning, because some of those rates are ridiculous. More than enough motivation to at least give it a shot on my own before even considering taking it to a dealer.

You mentioned the 100k/8yr warranty, and I forgot to ask a question regarding that. Is there a set-in-stone list of what voids it? I remember searching the forums for an answer a week or two ago, and never got a clear answer. For example, would an aftermarket flywheel, or exhaust system, or even an intake void the warranty on the 8? That warranty would be a lifesaver for me if I turn out unlucky, but I'm not sure if I've got the self control to limit a car like this to stock.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Warranty is a legal liability warranty like any other. (I went through a warranty fight with Toyota over my previously mentioned engine) That being said, you have to understand what a warranty claim actually is, and what it isn't.

When someone (a manufacturer, dealer, finance company, etc...) issues a warranty, they are accepting liability for that period of time/distance, accepting that any issues within the warranty coverage areas are either A) not supposed to happen or B) happen infrequently enough that they will be able to cover the cost of the repairs from the warranty charges from others that don't. Legally, it is only A), but practically, it is both.

When something breaks on your car, and it should be covered under warranty, your request for warranty service is legally a request for the warranty issuer (usually the manufacturer) to accept liability for damage/repairs as agreed.

If the warranty issuer accepts liabilty, which is usual, then they reimburse the shop for the costs of repairs. This is true even of dealers. Dealers charge the cost of repairs to Mazda USA, and get reimbursed. They make a lot of money on engine replacements. This is a critical point to keep in mind. The dealers can choose to not even file for warranty coverage (usually due to laziness), or they intentionally or accidentally misrepresent your car and modifications to Mazda USA during the discussion when Mazda is deciding on if they will accept the liability or not.

Moving closer to an answer to your question, sorry, there is some ground work I like to explain out, because I end up there anyway later on with more questions

If a warranty issuer decides they don't want to accept liability, then there is a fight ahead, at some level. Dealers are notorious for making this decision without even asking their parent company. Warranty requests are something of a mark against dealers I think. However, another critical point to recognize is that when a vehicle that is still within warranty period is denied warranty coverage, the warranty issuer has the burden of proof legally. They have to prove that a non-OEM part, a non-approved action, or a lack of required action caused the failure. If your only mod is a short shifter and your visor breaks, they can not possibly prove the link legally, because there isn't any. (Dealers have been known to try crazy stuff like that). If your transmission syncros fail though, well, there is more gray area. Legally, they have to prove the short shifter caused it, but there is enough gray that they might get it by.

Maintenance records is the big one. For all of history of warranties being issued, dealers have asked for maintenance records as proof of service before coverage. However, it isn't actually proof. Records simply close a loophole that they might try to exploit to get out of accepting liability. A vehicle with no service records at all can have an engine failure, and the warranty issues has to prove that a lack of service caused the failure. Legally. Of course getting to that point might still be costly fighting that battle, whether in time, money, and/or stress. They "win" alot of the warranty requests because the owners don't know any better, aren't prepared to fight them, or they are flat out lied to. Talking about all manufacturers here. Mazda is a bit better than most in my opinion, though they are certainly not exempt.


So directly back to your question, keeping all that in your mind, there is no intake or exhaust modification that will directly void your warranty legally. However, there are certainly dealers which can tell you that it will, tell you that it did, or even tell Mazda USA that you have an "illegal" or "not street approved" or "non Mazda" intake component, which could certainly cause them to deny you. And no, most people never hear those conversations. Conversely, there is another dealer I know about that ignores heavy modifications on an 8 that is routinely in for service and tells Mazda USA that the car is stock, because the dealer is intelligent and knows that the mods have nothing to do with the warranty work and introducing them into the conversation would make it harder on the honest customer.

The oil pressure mod is slowly gaining popularity as a reliability increase, however it would almost certainly cause a voided warranty if recognized, since it is a modification to the oil system, and lack of oil lubrication is a big cause of the failures around here, though there is basically zero chance that dealer would be able to detect it. Legally, it would a non-OEM change that the engine "wasn't designed for" and they would legally win that fight. Though practically, it just boosts the oil pressure up to where Mazda did OEM for the Series 2 engine. Rough call there if detected.

Given the history of failure with this engine (though smaller than people think it is), if it got to a legal fight, Mazda has very little chance at winning unless there was something changed about the engine itself (turbo, supercharger, oil, seals, rebuilt, etc...). But you don't want to get to that part. So in the end it comes down to 2 realistic options: 1) Build a relationship with your neighboring dealer, soaking the extra cost of time and money for routine maintenance so you develop that relationship and grease the gears if something warranty pops up, or 2), do everything yourself, and any warranty claims are more casual attempts where you are willing to take it on yourself if denied. I chose option 2. I figure I save more in money over time doing my own work than it would cost me to replace my engine myself, if it comes to that. Though I certainly will make an attempt at warranty coverage first.

Another thing to keep in mind is that dealer techs largely don't know what they are doing. A small few understand that the rotary is different, and very rare few actually know what they are doing and what to look for. 90%+ of Mazda techs don't even know that coils can fail during the life of the car, and there is a very real possibility that a lot of the early engine replacements simply needed new coils, not a new engine. (similar symptoms) With any issue, come here first. The collective knowledge here is far more than any tech at a dealer. (though there is alot of misinformation too, so you have to learn to sort through it and get backup clarification, etc...)

Case in point, my 8 not being back to normal after my cat failure. It got to the point I was having multiple problems that we couldn't figure out here, but it was all pointing towards engine failure (hard start, no start, misfires, low of power, etc...) I brought it a local dealer for a straight compression test, to rule that in or out (compression test is one of the few things you can't do yourself, unless you buy an electronic compression tester designed for a rotary. Standard ones won't give you all the readings you need). The tech I thought was dealing with the car talked to me like I was stupid for a while, claiming all sorts of crap about the cats don't fail and resetting sensors was a "special mazda way", etc... Finally they put it on a lift and start diagnosis. They give me the lowest compression readings I have ever seen on here, a clearly failing vacuum voltage reading, and then claim that there is no replacement needed. Clearly just lazy and don't want to do the work or the paperwork, but didn't charge me, instead charging it under the powertrain warranty. I brought it to another dealer, who then couldn't duplicate the first dealer's readings at all, in fact couldn't find anything wrong outside of a bit of rust on a plug wire and weak/failing starter. Nothing failing that could be covered under warranty, but he felt bad so he only charged me dealer cost on the labor of diagnosis, and nothing more (like 1/10th of what it would have been). Nothing wrong under warranty, nothing to submit, so he had to charge me. So the first dealer wasn't just lazy, they were incompetent as well.


So when you ask if something will or will not void a warranty, it will very rarely be a "yes, that will void it", but that doesn't mean you won't have a fight. Be prepared.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Uh, yeah. I type alot. I get it from my parents. Creative Writer and Engineer. I can write layman or technical papers

But I enjoy it.

Grog

iTrader: (5)

Thanks for clearing all of that up for me. I'm starting to understand it a lot better than I did before. As far as the engine warranty goes, I suppose that my best bet would be to build up on a relationship with my dealer every 3,000 miles, if you know what I mean, heh. I'm not one to just give up if I receive a "No" that I feel isn't justified, so I can foresee any troubles that I have with the engine to end in my favor, so as long as I stick to my plans as far as modifications go (No turbo, synthetic oil, other things you mentioned).

I think I'm going to go for it. I'll talk with my dad about it tonight, and may or may not have it sitting on my driveway by this Friday. I'll be sure to post up some pictures.

Thanks again for the advice, especially to you, RIWWP. If anybody else has some words of RX-8 wisdom that they'd like to share, or just your experiences with having the 8 as your daily, then I'd still like to hear what you have to say.

Grog

iTrader: (5)

Well, earlier today I picked it up and am in the process of learning how to drive stick (This is my first time in a manual car). I made sure to let the engine heat up before I began practicing, but like all of us when we first started learning, I ended up stalling it about a thousand times. In the back of my head I was worried that the constant restarting of the engine would influence the flooding that many uneducated owners generally face, but it never happened, luckily. Should I be worried about anything engine-related while I'm in the process of learning to drive this thing, or should I be alright as long as I give it time to heat up prior to practicing?

I would love to go on and on about how much I love this car, but I can't. My top speed today was about 35 mph on straight, boring, and deserted roads. Can't wait until I feel the rush that all of you brag about.

wcs

iTrader: (2)

OMG information overload ... this is at least a 3 beer thread read ... nice RIWWP

..... and whats with Grog ... a smart teenager willing to listen to others, and he doesn't already know everything better than everything else .... **** this must mean the end of the world

cats and dogs living together

HomicidalApple

iTrader: (3)

**** YEA GO FOR IT!!!!!

I have an 05 white water pearl MT and it is my daily driver, just over 79k miles (5.6k by me), my 8 was my 2nd car, my first was a 2001 toyota celica that i had for 4 months.

I only bought the celica because i couldnt get a loan approved on an RX8, then i got a much better job so i tried again and got the loan.

its an amazing car you wont regret it one bit

just be smart about the way you drive and dont wrap yourself around a pole

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Really good to hear you are taking your time. Best way to go. You are really a-typical teenager that gets on here. I really hope you stay that way and end up being a valued member of the community and not just another kid flash in the pan that disappears or crashes or destroys their 8 through incompetence (like happens so often, even a few that buy it and don't even insure it and wreck it within days).

I wouldn't worry about the engine all that much as long as it's fully warmed up. Granted, you aren't exactly being easy on it with all the stalling and starting, but nothing directly to fear.

Thanks, and yeah, tell me about it. For someone actually trying and paying attention and being smart about it, I have no problem typing it out and laying it out like that.

Fools...not so much

Hickoryhouse

My lazy non car people friends often ask me why I keep buying cars with standard trannies... I always tell them that a standard Transmissions is the best theft deterrent that a car can have. Most people in the states don't seem to know how to drive one.

Congratulations on your new 8! I daily drive my 09 and even though I haven't had it long I love it as a daily driver, gas sucks but thats the price to play.

Grog

iTrader: (5)

Here's some pictures. Today's my third day with the 8, and as I'm growing more comfortable driving it, I'm loving it more and more. A friend of mine came over this afternoon and helped me understand how to start from up a hill, and now that I've got the concept down, I've just got to continue practicing. Think I might even drive it to the gym tonight!

http://i41.tinypic.com/bgr61w.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/25herfk.jpg

Guess they show up as links if you're a newer member.

PolishDemon

Congrats on the purchase, Grog! I myself am 17 also, hopefully gettin' an 8 over the summer. The car is such an absolute beauty that it doesn't matter how much effort you have to put in to get it work, I'm up for it. After reading this thread, it seems you definitely made the right purchase. Good luck with the car!

maskedferret

iTrader: (1)

Congrats on getting the best color! You're going to find yourself thinking of any possible excuse to drive it all the time.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

Links to external pictures are not allowed in this particular forum.

stuy486

As a future RX-8 owner, this was a great read. Thanks for your insight RIWWP!

Speed_8

i wish my car was white or black, i have sunlight silver ( no offense to the silver owners ) but theres just sooo many silver cars out there.. anyone have an idea what it would cost to paint the car, aswell as congrats on the purchase i encourage you to get the best bodykit in the world .. mazda speed..

Grog

iTrader: (5)

God, I wish, but I just don't see myself letting go of 1k~1.2k for a front bumper. My current plan for the exterior is currently something along the lines of...

-R-Magic or Veilside front lip
-MS side skirts
-Black trunk
-Black MS wing
-Black hood (Not sure if I want carbon fiber, but most likely vented)
-Black wheels w/ silver lip
-25% tint all around

Though, I really am thinking way too far ahead. It'll probably take a good year or so until I manage to get all of that done; possibly longer. Not to mention I plan on throwing in an AEM intake and Exoticspeed R1-T exhaust somewhere inbetween.

So many possibilities... that cost so much money...

Speed_8

see im lucky my old work did the car up ( mazda in ottawa ) car used to belong to the marketing president of mazda canada and then our dealership bought it theyt couldnt sell the car so i ended up picking it up ... but if you want a nice body kit cheap too look at this one

http://www.andysautosport.com/mazda/...r00237904.html

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Any time. Thanks for reading it. My walls of text are often overwhelming to the lower half of the pool.

Must mean you are in the top half

Speed_8

he has a huge point that most techs know nothing at mazda.. i went in for an oil change and teh guy took my car started it right of the bat.. no wamr up in teh on position and drove it in teh bay and just turned it off right away and then honestly 10 minutes after the oil change just started it up drove out and turned right off.. i almost cried, i ran to the gas station filled it up gave it some gas treatment and washed teh car and detailed it lol.. i felt sooo bad, anywho awesome posts man, i my self learnt alot keep em coming