Series I vs. Series II
05-07-2018, 12:57 AM
#1
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Series I vs. Series II
Hello Everyone,
I've been interested in buying an RX-8 for the better part of a year now, but I've been trying to do some research and hold off instead of jumping straight into a car and ending up with a lemon.
For some context, the car will be used as a daily driver, for both a commute(~30 miles roundtrip, 4-5 days/week) and weekend driving.
Initially, I was mainly interested in buying an S2, as it seems to have better reliability and overall just be a better car than the S1(not surprising that it's a bit more refined). The main problem that I'm facing at the moment is finding a good S2 for sale. I've had an eye out for months, and I've seen almost 0 S2s listed for sale locally. I did find a 2010 R3 with ~35K miles posted recently for $8000, but after going to look at the car and digging a bit deeper, it's being sold by the 5th owner and was previously written off as a total loss due to flood damage. Neither of these were disclosed by the seller so, needless to say, it was a bit too sketchy for my taste.
All of this has led me to considering an S1 instead of an S2, as they seem to be quite a bit more plentiful. One of my concerns however is my, admittedly quite limited, experience with the two cars. I've driven 2 RX8s, the 2010 MT R3 mentioned previously, and a 2005 AT(this a non-starter for a car I'd be looking to buy, I've got absolutely no interest in anything other than a manual) GT. I absolutely loved the way the S2 drove, but the S1 felt all-around like a much worse car. Steering was substantially heavier, ride was noticeably rougher, and it felt more sluggish(I suppose this could be the result of the 4-port engine). To be fair, the S1 also had well over 100K miles. Is this normal behavior for higher mileage S1s, or was the car simply having other issues?
One point that seems to come up fairly often in the historical S1 vs. S2 threads is aftermarket part availability for the former. I'm looking to keep the car as close to stock as possible, perhaps LS coils or other simple reliability items, but certainly nothing major, so this doesn't have a big impact. I'm also fairly neutral on the aesthetics; I prefer the look of the S2s slightly, but there are positive and negative parts of each design IMO.
My other big concern with buying an S1 as opposed to an S2 is reliability issues. Is the reliability of an S1 bad enough in comparison to an S2 that I should stay away/wait for the right car to show up? Or are they relatively similar, given equivalent compression results and mileage on the body?
Thanks in advance!
I've been interested in buying an RX-8 for the better part of a year now, but I've been trying to do some research and hold off instead of jumping straight into a car and ending up with a lemon.
For some context, the car will be used as a daily driver, for both a commute(~30 miles roundtrip, 4-5 days/week) and weekend driving.
Initially, I was mainly interested in buying an S2, as it seems to have better reliability and overall just be a better car than the S1(not surprising that it's a bit more refined). The main problem that I'm facing at the moment is finding a good S2 for sale. I've had an eye out for months, and I've seen almost 0 S2s listed for sale locally. I did find a 2010 R3 with ~35K miles posted recently for $8000, but after going to look at the car and digging a bit deeper, it's being sold by the 5th owner and was previously written off as a total loss due to flood damage. Neither of these were disclosed by the seller so, needless to say, it was a bit too sketchy for my taste.
All of this has led me to considering an S1 instead of an S2, as they seem to be quite a bit more plentiful. One of my concerns however is my, admittedly quite limited, experience with the two cars. I've driven 2 RX8s, the 2010 MT R3 mentioned previously, and a 2005 AT(this a non-starter for a car I'd be looking to buy, I've got absolutely no interest in anything other than a manual) GT. I absolutely loved the way the S2 drove, but the S1 felt all-around like a much worse car. Steering was substantially heavier, ride was noticeably rougher, and it felt more sluggish(I suppose this could be the result of the 4-port engine). To be fair, the S1 also had well over 100K miles. Is this normal behavior for higher mileage S1s, or was the car simply having other issues?
One point that seems to come up fairly often in the historical S1 vs. S2 threads is aftermarket part availability for the former. I'm looking to keep the car as close to stock as possible, perhaps LS coils or other simple reliability items, but certainly nothing major, so this doesn't have a big impact. I'm also fairly neutral on the aesthetics; I prefer the look of the S2s slightly, but there are positive and negative parts of each design IMO.
My other big concern with buying an S1 as opposed to an S2 is reliability issues. Is the reliability of an S1 bad enough in comparison to an S2 that I should stay away/wait for the right car to show up? Or are they relatively similar, given equivalent compression results and mileage on the body?
Thanks in advance!
05-07-2018, 10:31 AM
#2
You're thinking about this wrong. These cars are precisely as reliable or unreliable as the previous owner has made them, regardless of year. A well cared for low mileage S1, or an S1 with a fresh engine is about equally reliable to an S2 that was equally well cared for or has a fresh engine.
Conversely, an S2 that has been neglected or is up there in mileage is equally likely to give you problems as an S1 of similar condition.
The differences in ride comfort and steering are down to that particular vehicle's problems. The steering and suspension are nearly identical. I don't think a casual driver can detect that the S2 has slightly taller springs in the rear
So rather than shopping for a car of a particular year, I'd suggest instead to shop for any year based on condition. What you want is one with a fresh or known-good (with compression test results on paper) engine. Everything else is secondary/easily fixable. If you're looking in the 100k+ mile range, regular wear and tear not specific to an RX8 starts to come into play: shocks, ball joints, rust, etc.
Conversely, an S2 that has been neglected or is up there in mileage is equally likely to give you problems as an S1 of similar condition.
The differences in ride comfort and steering are down to that particular vehicle's problems. The steering and suspension are nearly identical. I don't think a casual driver can detect that the S2 has slightly taller springs in the rear
So rather than shopping for a car of a particular year, I'd suggest instead to shop for any year based on condition. What you want is one with a fresh or known-good (with compression test results on paper) engine. Everything else is secondary/easily fixable. If you're looking in the 100k+ mile range, regular wear and tear not specific to an RX8 starts to come into play: shocks, ball joints, rust, etc.
05-07-2018, 11:04 AM
#3
Comparing an AT to MT regardless of series is comparing apples to oranges. In fact, the earlier AT's were the ones prone to early mileage engine failure due to excessive carbon buildup resulting from a stereotypical AT owner who never wrung out their cars to high RPMs.
As Loki says, reliability is depending on the owner's care first and foremost when shopping for this car. Compression test mandatory.
As Loki says, reliability is depending on the owner's care first and foremost when shopping for this car. Compression test mandatory.
05-07-2018, 11:18 AM
#4
You gonna eat that?
iTrader: (1)
05-07-2018, 11:20 AM
#5
You gonna eat that?
iTrader: (1)
05-07-2018, 01:07 PM
#6
Smoking turbo yay
In terms of driving, S1 and S2 shouldn't be too different. I drove a Shinka a while ago, and aside from the gearing(S2's gearing is a bit shorter) and transmission, there is nothing that's really different from my S2 GT.
Overall, try to get an S2, but since there are only 17000 of them produced globally, don't expect them to be common. The only S2 I see on CL in my area is a Sport AT that has been stuck at the dealer for a year now.
Overall, try to get an S2, but since there are only 17000 of them produced globally, don't expect them to be common. The only S2 I see on CL in my area is a Sport AT that has been stuck at the dealer for a year now.
05-09-2018, 04:45 PM
#7
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You're thinking about this wrong. These cars are precisely as reliable or unreliable as the previous owner has made them, regardless of year. A well cared for low mileage S1, or an S1 with a fresh engine is about equally reliable to an S2 that was equally well cared for or has a fresh engine.
Conversely, an S2 that has been neglected or is up there in mileage is equally likely to give you problems as an S1 of similar condition.
The differences in ride comfort and steering are down to that particular vehicle's problems. The steering and suspension are nearly identical. I don't think a casual driver can detect that the S2 has slightly taller springs in the rear
So rather than shopping for a car of a particular year, I'd suggest instead to shop for any year based on condition. What you want is one with a fresh or known-good (with compression test results on paper) engine. Everything else is secondary/easily fixable. If you're looking in the 100k+ mile range, regular wear and tear not specific to an RX8 starts to come into play: shocks, ball joints, rust, etc.
Conversely, an S2 that has been neglected or is up there in mileage is equally likely to give you problems as an S1 of similar condition.
The differences in ride comfort and steering are down to that particular vehicle's problems. The steering and suspension are nearly identical. I don't think a casual driver can detect that the S2 has slightly taller springs in the rear
So rather than shopping for a car of a particular year, I'd suggest instead to shop for any year based on condition. What you want is one with a fresh or known-good (with compression test results on paper) engine. Everything else is secondary/easily fixable. If you're looking in the 100k+ mile range, regular wear and tear not specific to an RX8 starts to come into play: shocks, ball joints, rust, etc.
With that in mind, I think I'll continue to keep an eye out for S2s (After all, it's in the budget, so why not spring for the newer car if possible). That being said, if an appealing S1 pops up, it'll definitely be on my radar.
Compression testing is definitely something that I've been aware of for a while, it's hard to spend more than 5 minutes on this forum without seeing it mentioned.
05-12-2018, 07:19 PM
#8
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Well, interesting timing, a 2004 GT with 156K on the body just popped up quite close by(10 or so miles away).
11K miles on a new engine(apparently it was a new engine installed at the dealer, not a reman) installed 3 years ago, new clutch put in when the engine was pulled, long with a new cat and alternator. Only problem is, seller's asking 8K
Haven't gone to check out the car yet, but KBB seems to value it in the ~3K range. Now, I realize it has a new engine, but $3500 seems a lot more reasonable to me than $8000. Am I way off base, or is the seller?
Apologies, but I haven't been keeping as much of an eye on S1 prices. $3500-$4000 does seem to be closer to what most are listed for at the moment though as far as I can tell.
11K miles on a new engine(apparently it was a new engine installed at the dealer, not a reman) installed 3 years ago, new clutch put in when the engine was pulled, long with a new cat and alternator. Only problem is, seller's asking 8K
Haven't gone to check out the car yet, but KBB seems to value it in the ~3K range. Now, I realize it has a new engine, but $3500 seems a lot more reasonable to me than $8000. Am I way off base, or is the seller?
Apologies, but I haven't been keeping as much of an eye on S1 prices. $3500-$4000 does seem to be closer to what most are listed for at the moment though as far as I can tell.
05-12-2018, 07:47 PM
#9
There are no new engines. The dealer probably just didn't explain it properly. Check if it has a blue tag on the engine, on the drivers side. That's Mazda's rebuild tag.
That said, it's still good news. The seller is probably just trying to make his money back on the engine replacement. If everything is in good condition, talk him down to 5-ish. With a compression test
IMO book value is diluted by cars with dead engines selling for under 1k, so a good condition example with a good engine would be worth more than book.
That said, it's still good news. The seller is probably just trying to make his money back on the engine replacement. If everything is in good condition, talk him down to 5-ish. With a compression test
IMO book value is diluted by cars with dead engines selling for under 1k, so a good condition example with a good engine would be worth more than book.
02-18-2019, 07:27 PM
#11
There's quite a few of these threads, so I figured I'd repurpose the most recent rather than add to the bunch
I've read through several (if not all) of the previous 'S1 v. S2' threads on this forum, and just about everything else Google has coughed up. Thread dates go all the way back to 2009, and is mostly very dated. I'm not 100% sure of the state of things in 2019. PRACTICALLY speaking (never mind the myriad technical details; I've read through the detailed part number thread), what is the difference between the two? Aftermarket support, parts availability, tunability, etc. It seems pretty clear that S2s had very poor aftermarket support for at least a good long while, is this still the case? Comparatively lower production numbers as stated above would support that. Is it still the case that S2 ECU tuning is still a mystery short of a standalone (Haltech or similar)? Is it still the case that for stock reliability, S2 is the answer, but if you intend to deviate from stock at all, S1 is the only option? What's the state of the APEX of the rotary evolutionary universe today? (Pun fully intended, and on that note I'll see myself out.)
I've read through several (if not all) of the previous 'S1 v. S2' threads on this forum, and just about everything else Google has coughed up. Thread dates go all the way back to 2009, and is mostly very dated. I'm not 100% sure of the state of things in 2019. PRACTICALLY speaking (never mind the myriad technical details; I've read through the detailed part number thread), what is the difference between the two? Aftermarket support, parts availability, tunability, etc. It seems pretty clear that S2s had very poor aftermarket support for at least a good long while, is this still the case? Comparatively lower production numbers as stated above would support that. Is it still the case that S2 ECU tuning is still a mystery short of a standalone (Haltech or similar)? Is it still the case that for stock reliability, S2 is the answer, but if you intend to deviate from stock at all, S1 is the only option? What's the state of the APEX of the rotary evolutionary universe today? (Pun fully intended, and on that note I'll see myself out.)
02-19-2019, 01:24 PM
#12
Mazdaedit and versatuner options are now available for either s1 and s2. This provides a way to tune either.
Definitely there is a lot more options with s1 when it comes to modifications (exhausts, body exterior, suspension) and no commercially available solution for adding 2-cycle thru the OMP is currently available for S2 (something like the sohn adapter for s1).
Another consideration is the oil filter for S2 is very unique and it is possible to become an issue in the future. This is an annoyance at the moment but take for example on some Subarus their oil filter became completely unavailable and it is possible the s2 will follow the same path.
Hope that helps.
Definitely there is a lot more options with s1 when it comes to modifications (exhausts, body exterior, suspension) and no commercially available solution for adding 2-cycle thru the OMP is currently available for S2 (something like the sohn adapter for s1).
Another consideration is the oil filter for S2 is very unique and it is possible to become an issue in the future. This is an annoyance at the moment but take for example on some Subarus their oil filter became completely unavailable and it is possible the s2 will follow the same path.
Hope that helps.
02-19-2019, 01:31 PM
#13
That is PRECISELY the sort of information I'm after! S2s seem to be more desirable in a number of ways, but I'm after an RX8 to have fun tuning and such. If the aftermarket for an S2 is considerably less robust, that makes tuning very difficult. Similarly, I'd like to hold onto it for a while, and an inability to get oil filters down the road is a pretty significant problem that further decreases the desirability of an S2. As nice as the S2 is in a number of ways, those cons are significant and, for my purposes at least, tilt the balance much more in favor of an S1.
02-19-2019, 01:36 PM
#14
Smoking turbo yay
Define "tuning."
If you want to tune for significant power, really forced induction is the solution. Hard to get that much more power in NA form.
If you keep NA it's really more worthwhile to improve the handling as best as you can.
If you want to tune for significant power, really forced induction is the solution. Hard to get that much more power in NA form.
If you keep NA it's really more worthwhile to improve the handling as best as you can.
02-19-2019, 01:48 PM
#15
Broad brush 'tuning' really. Nothing specific in mind yet. Getting it and getting it baselined come first. I live at altitude, so forced induction is definitely on the radar. I don't have ambition for anything more than the mid-low 300hp range though. From what I've read, the safe ceiling is about 400, and as much as I like building engines, it's not something I intend to make a habit of. The road I live on and get to drive for any and every mundane errand is the sort that most people dream about driving in their wildest fantasies, so I'll be sorting brakes and handling before I do anything more than undo PO neglect with the engine.
02-19-2019, 02:42 PM
#16
It’s subjective, but FWIW, I find the S1 to be a somewhat more handsome design. The grille is smaller and understated; it better matches the lines and proportions of the car, IMO. I also don’t like the S2’s side grilles behind the front fenders. On the other hand, I do prefer the S2 taillights, though I like the original, admittedly overwrought lights, too.
02-19-2019, 03:16 PM
#17
Smoking turbo yay
S1 feels a bit too round to me. Kinda like the exact opposite of a Challenger. Coming from my 08 Accord Coupe with my S2 was already quite a change.
02-19-2019, 03:28 PM
#18
It is subjective. Subjectively, I don't think either are especially good looking. Sorry. Though I'm sure they'll grow on me, and I'll even eventually prefer one over the other. I've had pretty cars though. That's not why I'm here. I want a rotary back in my life, and I want something that can turn and be thrown around a bit!
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