Want a new RX3?
04-10-2003, 06:46 PM
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Want a new RX3?
Over at rotarynews.com they posted an article a few weeks ago about the chance of a new RX3. A lot of people posted enthusiastic comments, and rotarynews said:
"A Follow up to our "Predictions and Speculation" story. Mazda took notice. Not much can be given out right now, but keep the comments coming, and who knows, there may be a new RX-3 in your garage next to your boosted Mazdaspeed RX-8."
If you didn't post a comment and want a new RX3, here's the link to give your support.
http://rotarynews.com/view.php?id=158
We might be on the verge of a swarm of new rotary cars ...
"A Follow up to our "Predictions and Speculation" story. Mazda took notice. Not much can be given out right now, but keep the comments coming, and who knows, there may be a new RX-3 in your garage next to your boosted Mazdaspeed RX-8."
If you didn't post a comment and want a new RX3, here's the link to give your support.
http://rotarynews.com/view.php?id=158
We might be on the verge of a swarm of new rotary cars ...
04-19-2003, 06:40 PM
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While I really hope the RX-3 will become a reality, I think it's an extremely long shot. Bwob (Bob Hall, the father of the Miata) posted some reasons why it's very unlikely we'll see a rotary powered car that's less expensive than the RX-8. Bwob still has lots of friends at Mazda, so I give his opinions a ton of weight. Here are his posts in full:
"One benefit the rotary no longer has - even in REnesis form - is cost. The fact the engine has few parts is its sole saving grace as regards getting past the Gauntlet of corporate accountants.
Final assembly of the rotary is effectively done by hand. whereas much of the final assembly of recips at Mazda has been automated. Back when there were 360 Yen to the US Dollar and the line workers at Mazda were being paid a fraction of today's rates, the Wankel rotary was cheep enough to go into the likes of Mazda X808 econoboxes (resulting in what we know as an RX-3). The situation in a 90 to 120 Yen per US Dollar world and salary rates not all that dissimilar to that of somebody in a US factory, manufacturing costs of the rotary are pretty steep.
This means that there's a window of price and volume in which any rotary-engined car has to sit. With the realities of the old rule-of-thumb that as price goes up volume drops, the REnesis has to find those sweet spots where the (relatively) low production rate - forced through the high percentage of hand labor - has to match a price point for a vehicle which will cover the engine's costs.
In this context, the idea of a low-priced modern-day RX-3 (as espoused in another Car Talk thread in the Miata.net Forum) makes no sense whatsoever alongside the idea of a REnesis-powered FE Series RX-7 price positioned somewhat higher than the RX-8. With the RX-3 idea, the more popular the car was the more money it would lose where in the case of the FE, the pricing of the car would cover the costs of a more potent version of the REnesis to ensure a reasonably cushy per-car profit margin.
I know that my attempt to bring some reality to this sort of thread is ultimately an exercise in futility, but I'm hoping there are a few people in the Forum with a decent grasp of English and a desire to get an idea of what is likely to happen who may benefit.
bwob
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Friends don't let non-reading friends visit Internet Forums"
"One benefit the rotary no longer has - even in REnesis form - is cost. The fact the engine has few parts is its sole saving grace as regards getting past the Gauntlet of corporate accountants.
Final assembly of the rotary is effectively done by hand. whereas much of the final assembly of recips at Mazda has been automated. Back when there were 360 Yen to the US Dollar and the line workers at Mazda were being paid a fraction of today's rates, the Wankel rotary was cheep enough to go into the likes of Mazda X808 econoboxes (resulting in what we know as an RX-3). The situation in a 90 to 120 Yen per US Dollar world and salary rates not all that dissimilar to that of somebody in a US factory, manufacturing costs of the rotary are pretty steep.
This means that there's a window of price and volume in which any rotary-engined car has to sit. With the realities of the old rule-of-thumb that as price goes up volume drops, the REnesis has to find those sweet spots where the (relatively) low production rate - forced through the high percentage of hand labor - has to match a price point for a vehicle which will cover the engine's costs.
In this context, the idea of a low-priced modern-day RX-3 (as espoused in another Car Talk thread in the Miata.net Forum) makes no sense whatsoever alongside the idea of a REnesis-powered FE Series RX-7 price positioned somewhat higher than the RX-8. With the RX-3 idea, the more popular the car was the more money it would lose where in the case of the FE, the pricing of the car would cover the costs of a more potent version of the REnesis to ensure a reasonably cushy per-car profit margin.
I know that my attempt to bring some reality to this sort of thread is ultimately an exercise in futility, but I'm hoping there are a few people in the Forum with a decent grasp of English and a desire to get an idea of what is likely to happen who may benefit.
bwob
__________
Friends don't let non-reading friends visit Internet Forums"
04-19-2003, 06:43 PM
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Here's post number 2, it's in response to the quote that begins the post:
I was notorious for not wearing my FDJ shirt and sleeping through my Marxism 101 classes at the Engels Institut, but what's so wrong with deciding how deep or shallow a profit margin your company is willing to live with or saving money? Presupposing, that is, that you have intimate knowledge of Mazda's cost structures.
The point I was alluding to is that the RX-8, RX-7 or any car using the REnesis powerplant will have to sit at a price point where there is a fine balance between volume and costs. I suspect that a base 210hp RX-8 is about as cheap a car as can be powered by the REnesis without going to some very low- tech - and unappealing - componentry (how do you like your leaf-sprung rigid axles? With or without drum brakes?) or dropping margins to a level which Mazda in its new incarnation of a profit-making corporation is unlikely to begin experimenting with.
Theoretically an RX-7 could have some systems which would have lower manufacturing costs - the bodyshell, for example (since it wouldn't need to go to the effort needed to meet side impact regs without a center pillar) than the RX-8 which could be offset on the retail side with the 1.5 liter version of the REnesis and its greater power output. (Remember the rules of Market Basket Pricing - you will pay for sexy looks not to mention every single horsepower.) An incrementally higher retail price - thanks to the 'exclusivity' of two seats, sexy styling and more horsepower than, say, the 350Z in a package 250 to 300kg lighter - would offset the fact that an FE would be likely to sell in numbers substantially lower than the 50,000+ per year the RX-8 has been prepared for. The utilization of common component sets between the RX-8 and FE RX-7 would be another plus to offset reduced RX-7 volume while maximizing per-car profitability.
Regarding in-line sixes, I love 'em. They're a personal favorite, in fact, powering one of my all-time favorite OTMs, the Nissan R32 Skyline. But the disadvantages have been well documented by others in this thread so I won't repeat them, although I'd like to toss out one more.
In-line sixes are a right beast to package. Unless you place a cap on displacement and/or siamese cylinder bores placing one transversely in the nose of a wrong-wheel-drive car is a nightmare. And every recip Mazda builds has to be able to be packaged transversely. Mazda's costs structures don't support building a single in-line six for the Miata which cannot be used in the Familia/323/Protege and/or the Atenza/Mazda6/Futura as well. Right chickdr?
I know it's been said before, but I may as well repeat it for all the non-readers out there; the NC will have a reciprocating piston engine with a whole number of cylinders greater than three but less than five.
As regards my having a dry sense of humor Stu, are you absolutely certain you haven't got me confused for someone much taller? Not hardly, I suspect.
bwob
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I find this quote intersting as the RX-8 is not an expensive car- 26K to start for a car with its features is certainly on the low side of the spectrum. Either they are making little profit or saving a lot of costs elsewhere.
I was notorious for not wearing my FDJ shirt and sleeping through my Marxism 101 classes at the Engels Institut, but what's so wrong with deciding how deep or shallow a profit margin your company is willing to live with or saving money? Presupposing, that is, that you have intimate knowledge of Mazda's cost structures.
The point I was alluding to is that the RX-8, RX-7 or any car using the REnesis powerplant will have to sit at a price point where there is a fine balance between volume and costs. I suspect that a base 210hp RX-8 is about as cheap a car as can be powered by the REnesis without going to some very low- tech - and unappealing - componentry (how do you like your leaf-sprung rigid axles? With or without drum brakes?) or dropping margins to a level which Mazda in its new incarnation of a profit-making corporation is unlikely to begin experimenting with.
Theoretically an RX-7 could have some systems which would have lower manufacturing costs - the bodyshell, for example (since it wouldn't need to go to the effort needed to meet side impact regs without a center pillar) than the RX-8 which could be offset on the retail side with the 1.5 liter version of the REnesis and its greater power output. (Remember the rules of Market Basket Pricing - you will pay for sexy looks not to mention every single horsepower.) An incrementally higher retail price - thanks to the 'exclusivity' of two seats, sexy styling and more horsepower than, say, the 350Z in a package 250 to 300kg lighter - would offset the fact that an FE would be likely to sell in numbers substantially lower than the 50,000+ per year the RX-8 has been prepared for. The utilization of common component sets between the RX-8 and FE RX-7 would be another plus to offset reduced RX-7 volume while maximizing per-car profitability.
Regarding in-line sixes, I love 'em. They're a personal favorite, in fact, powering one of my all-time favorite OTMs, the Nissan R32 Skyline. But the disadvantages have been well documented by others in this thread so I won't repeat them, although I'd like to toss out one more.
In-line sixes are a right beast to package. Unless you place a cap on displacement and/or siamese cylinder bores placing one transversely in the nose of a wrong-wheel-drive car is a nightmare. And every recip Mazda builds has to be able to be packaged transversely. Mazda's costs structures don't support building a single in-line six for the Miata which cannot be used in the Familia/323/Protege and/or the Atenza/Mazda6/Futura as well. Right chickdr?
I know it's been said before, but I may as well repeat it for all the non-readers out there; the NC will have a reciprocating piston engine with a whole number of cylinders greater than three but less than five.
As regards my having a dry sense of humor Stu, are you absolutely certain you haven't got me confused for someone much taller? Not hardly, I suspect.
bwob
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Friends don't let friends drive Super Dolphin Profia Teravie FS Truck Mixer Agitators
04-19-2003, 08:14 PM
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Final assembly of the rotary is effectively done by hand. whereas much of the final assembly of recips at Mazda has been automated.
Bwob still has lots of friends at Mazda
So I guess, whether you think the RX-3 will return or not, please post a comment if you would like one on www.rotarynews.com. Who knows, your comment may be the one that changes Mazda's opinion about whether to produce it
04-19-2003, 09:04 PM
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If you have ever been to one of the SevenStock banquets, and heard Kelvin Hiraishi (Director of MazdaR&D) talk about our relationship, you'll know we do "underground rotary scene market research" for the folks at R&D.
Additionally, some of Bob's quotes directly contradict the reasons for making the RX-3, namely, reducing the cost of the RENESIS production. It may be done by hand, but the investment into automating the process would not pay off. Additionally, I'll trust the reasoning I've been given for the RX-3's cost point over Bwob's post.
That's all i'm going to say for now, other than send you comments into the thread at rotarynews.com
Additionally, some of Bob's quotes directly contradict the reasons for making the RX-3, namely, reducing the cost of the RENESIS production. It may be done by hand, but the investment into automating the process would not pay off. Additionally, I'll trust the reasoning I've been given for the RX-3's cost point over Bwob's post.
That's all i'm going to say for now, other than send you comments into the thread at rotarynews.com
04-20-2003, 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by rotarynews.com
reducing the cost of the RENESIS production. It may be done by hand, but the investment into automating the process would not pay off. Additionally, I'll trust the reasoning I've been given for the RX-3's cost point over Bwob's post.
reducing the cost of the RENESIS production. It may be done by hand, but the investment into automating the process would not pay off. Additionally, I'll trust the reasoning I've been given for the RX-3's cost point over Bwob's post.
btw, there ARE more expensive engines to produce (like some of those Honda R-Type ones, which has to be at least equal in cost) in cars less expensive than the RX-8, in that "performance compact" segment... an RX-3, even with the lower revving "low power" motor would absolutely destroy damned near every FWD sports car on the road... ahaha... sorry for that last bit, i'm just dreaming: a new wankel-powered car i COULD afford.
06-08-2004, 02:09 PM
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Thanks rotarynews.com ... I hope that by this fall or by the Detroit or Tokyo auto show there will be more info and pics to pass along!
Mazda, if anyone is listening – please make it a true 2+2 fastback that's also a hatchback! Please!
:D
Mazda, if anyone is listening – please make it a true 2+2 fastback that's also a hatchback! Please!
:D
06-08-2004, 04:08 PM
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A cheap RX-3 would be fun, but there's no way it'll happen in the next 10 years.
As was mentioned, it would require a large investment to upgrade the production facilities which means that Mazda would then have to produce and sell a LOT of rotary engines to recoup the cost. However, if Mazda did sell that many rotaries then their CAFE average would be below legal limits. So unless a new, more fuel efficient rotary is developed it seems impossible for Mazda to produce such a car.
As was mentioned, it would require a large investment to upgrade the production facilities which means that Mazda would then have to produce and sell a LOT of rotary engines to recoup the cost. However, if Mazda did sell that many rotaries then their CAFE average would be below legal limits. So unless a new, more fuel efficient rotary is developed it seems impossible for Mazda to produce such a car.
06-08-2004, 10:49 PM
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For an RX-3, Mazda needs an inexpensive sport coupe like http://www.scion.com/drive/gallery/d...c_gallery.html
The Mazda3 is still an economy sedan and Mazda6 is, well, a sedan. That ScionTC looks somewhat like a mini G35. I think they will strike gold with it.
The Mazda3 is still an economy sedan and Mazda6 is, well, a sedan. That ScionTC looks somewhat like a mini G35. I think they will strike gold with it.
06-09-2004, 01:57 AM
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The question I have to ask is - why would they do it?
I don't really see any gains to producing an "econobox" rotary such as a new RX-3. First off, it would compete with Mazda's own 3 series. And putting a rotary in a lesser car decreases the exclusivity of having it in the '8, and the '7.
I'm all for rotary power, but I don't quite see how this would make sense for Mazda to do. I'm pretty firmly on bwobs side.
I don't really see any gains to producing an "econobox" rotary such as a new RX-3. First off, it would compete with Mazda's own 3 series. And putting a rotary in a lesser car decreases the exclusivity of having it in the '8, and the '7.
I'm all for rotary power, but I don't quite see how this would make sense for Mazda to do. I'm pretty firmly on bwobs side.
06-09-2004, 03:15 AM
#16
Originally posted by neit_jnf
I want a rotary Miata!!!
I want a rotary Miata!!!
Have on great authority that a rotary (renesis) miata and a convertable RX8 will be in showrooms some time in the future.
As for a rotary 3, I doubt it, I see something more like the focus cosworth if anything.
06-09-2004, 01:17 PM
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there is absolutely no way there is goign to be a wankel powered miata, and don't take this awesoome thread off course :P
if there's to be another rotary convertible in Mazda's future, it will again be an RX-7 convertible, not an MX-5.
the return of the RX-3 would not reduce the "exclusivity" for the motor, but would be more of a premium "sport compact" car, one intended to bring the rotary to the unwashed ricing masses. it would be fairly untouchable in the FWD department, but would take quite a bit of development to create a laterally mounted 13B (or maybe go back to the 12??). its level of tune would be on the lower end of the scale for the 13B-MSP, but hopefully with a little bit of luck Mazda can keep it tuned on the leaner side of things and make an almost gas-sipping rotary (as this would probably be a big point of contention for used-Honda buyers who wouldn't know a lug nut from their left nut).
if there's to be another rotary convertible in Mazda's future, it will again be an RX-7 convertible, not an MX-5.
the return of the RX-3 would not reduce the "exclusivity" for the motor, but would be more of a premium "sport compact" car, one intended to bring the rotary to the unwashed ricing masses. it would be fairly untouchable in the FWD department, but would take quite a bit of development to create a laterally mounted 13B (or maybe go back to the 12??). its level of tune would be on the lower end of the scale for the 13B-MSP, but hopefully with a little bit of luck Mazda can keep it tuned on the leaner side of things and make an almost gas-sipping rotary (as this would probably be a big point of contention for used-Honda buyers who wouldn't know a lug nut from their left nut).
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