Heh, you guys think we have it bad, what with fear of cost, performance, and corrosion. Go look up what Ducati owners are dealing with the last 5+ years. Freaking fuel tanks deforming due to incompatibility. There are even a handful of stories of tanks that have leaked mid-ride and caught fire

Yeah - The bikes with semi-structural fiberglass and carbon fiber are literally falling apart because of the incompatibility with ethanol.
I would imagine that some of the exotic cars have similar problems.

Whats really sad also is that we as consumers are being given no choice in the matter. Our cars are 30K+ investments. Some like Erics cars are 200K investments. Yet we are given no choices on how to protect them. I bet this doesn't help the recession either. Before you could buy a car and own it for 30 years, now after 7 years most vehicles start to fail from these fuels. Just wonderful isn't it :(

Well, there are proactive methods of dealing with it.
It is just a matter of how inconvenienced you are willing to be.

Just as I said I researched it. I didn't find a whole lot in automotive community. But I went to the AOPA forums, and a couple other aircraft forums I am registered on. I did find a lot of people having problems with not only carbon fiber, but with fiberglass fuel cells. They are having to switch to alluminum in places that have E10 or higher. Also I found information on people with fiberglass boats where the ethanol softens or eats through the boats who use the hull for fuel storage. They are also starting to show that valves break down when introduced to ethanol. Intake valves for one. They are finding corrosion and sticky intake valves. Sound familiar? They were finding trace amounts of parts of the fuel system in the intakes. They analyzed it and found out the ethanol had softened up components of the fuel system which began to redeposit on intake valve and inside of injectors. They are finding that plastics are easily disolved by ethanol then redeposited other places in the engine system. So basically from our fuel pump, to our SSV valve.

(Phthalates, or phthalate esters, are esters of phthalic acid and are mainly used as plasticizers (substances added to plastics to increase their flexibility, transparency, durability, and longevity).)
(GCMS - Gas Chromatography Mass Spectrometry )

"Phthalates are only sparingly soluble in water, however many are readily dissolved by ethanol. Whereas gasoline free from ethanol never picks up phthalates, when ethanol was introduced the very small ethanol molecules diffused into the fiberglass, filler and gel coat materials where they dissolved unreacted phthalates. Having been dissolved by smaller molecules, and almost certainly accelerated by osmotic pressure, some portion diffused back to the surface and was dispersed in the gasoline. Based on our GCMS results to date there are some other, presently unidentified, large molecules that were also leached out by the ethanol and similarly transferred into the gasoline."

"Since they are in solution, the phthalates and the other heavy dissolved molecules are able to pass through the fuel line filters. When the gasoline with ethanol evaporates in the carburetor the heavy molecules do not evaporate but come out of solution and are carried along in the air-fuel mix as an aerosol. When the droplets impinge on throttle plates and on the walls of the induction system they can collect as reported."

"Some of the molecules that impinge on the hot valve stems and under the crowns decompose to leave carbon powder and ash. Others, such as the phthalates that in general have exceptional high temperature stability, remain intact or undergo only partial decomposition and then act as the binder that holds together the carbon particles and ash as the observed"

Some of those should look very familiar

They are also having problems with one way valve systems like our oil injectors have. Basically the ethanol is capable of breaking down the plastic lines mazda chose to use. You can avoid this by making your own teflon lines. The plastic that is broken down in line, is not filtered and can clog the injectors.

Can you explain how ethanol can affect the Oil lines and oil injectors?

Well, on a stock setup fuel gets in the oil, oil goes through the OMP lines and injectors.

If you look at the oil reports we are getting back, and heres a part where I think Blackstone is getting it wrong. They are finding trace amounts of fuel in the oil. Now Blackstone says its because of our cars being city drivers, which is actually incorrect. A lot of us heavy track use cars are seeing fuel dilution in the oil. You can read through them all here:

https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/used-oil-analysis-post-them-here-184241/

Our oil lines are made from a plastic that is actually not safe for use with ethanol fuel.

another great reason to have a safe, fuel/ethanol free, oil reservoir for the omp

Yep :)

I feel like ethanol adding is somewhat reminiscent of what happened when lead was taken out of the gas....

Luckily our premixing should coat fuel system enough to stop corrosion.

Next time I buy a nice car for the wifey, I'm thinking about diesel.

No coils, wires, plugs, and they're more quiet now.

I drove a C3 Citroen that had gobs of get up and go at 1500-3000 rpm, and there's allkinds of Vw's and Audi diesels.

ethanol unfortunately easily breaks through fuel and oil. Mixes with it and stays in it. The only way to get it out is with water. Even a small layer of oil from premixing will still have ethanol in it. Thats one of the big problems boats are having. Two stroke boats wouldn't be affected if this was the case. But unfortunately its costing boat and aircraft owners tens of thousands of dollars. I know our cost seams measly compared to theres but its still unnecessary. They are having to change out components for aluminum fuel tanks, aluminum fuel lines, new fuel pumps(on aircraft that arent gravity feed like cessna 152s).

you forget we like to starve people to death like in Africa.

That's why Al Gore has changed his mind about ethanol from corn.
He is no longer a proponent of this.

In place of this he wants to kill America via the Mercury light bulb.

Funny thing is we can not have a thermostat in our house with mercury because it is too dangerous and is outlawed. However after the first major earthquake...

All of our homes will be condemned due to the hazardous clean up.

Can you really clean that mercury out of your walls and floors?

Texas has certain (non-attainment areas) in which a certain fuel mixture is mandated, and I think that means year round 10%ethanol everywhere in those counties (no exceptions).

Those counties are ( Bexar, Travis, new), several DFW area, Harris, etc.

America is going to go bankrupt at the rate it's coming up with dumb ideas.

Just watch what's happening to LA county's budget, $600,000,000. year (yes, Millions!) just for illegal immigrants welfare. Just $21.8 Billion for all of California last year.

So we borrow money we don't have from people that are our competitors (China) to act like big shots around the world, and that sugar (social programs) on the table does'nt help in the long run.

Razz1'

So I'm looking up more EPA nonsense, and some enterprising soul built a patented "Bulb Eater"to dispose of all those mercury bulbs in all sizes into a 55gal drum.

I shite you not!

mm its gets worse huh lol

Well, after checking the Murphy USA site, I found that not all have ethanol in the gas. So i went to our newest Walmart and the pump said nothing about ethanol. I'm gonna swing by in a bit to see if they said anything like oxygenated or anything like that.

yea i know we dont have sugar cane here.

my point is that if we can't do it, why can't we just let it go?

but since our big brothers in the white house think we are #1 in everything, we just have to do it, no matter what cost. so they came up with a much inferior solution (corn) just for the hell of it. and they forgot that unlike sugar cane, corn is actually edible everyday, u can't do that with sugar cane.

and yeah, those "go green" people usually just look at the good numbers and ignore all the side effects.

i just wish there is Ethanol FREE gas in the tri-state area. :(

too bad our great mayor/Governor is such an asshole.

Yeah, I guess the cosolvent to bind the ethanol also allows an emulsion with the premix.

I used to drain 55gal THD's of a real sticky (like cobwebs) straight gear oil, and use them to fill with methanol; always clear methanol with slight oil coating on drum (no mixing or emulsion.

I always had to be careful when pumping oil based gas and oil or methanol( even one gallon of methanol to a truck full of gas acts like water).

I think there's a petroleum product of some sort that would coat the fuel system without guming up the system.

So model airplanes have been using methanol and nitromethane fuel for years, and the 2cycle oil is castor bean oil (might be too gummy for cars).

If they put ethanol in gas in some 3rd world countries, some people might pour water in some ethanol gas, pour off the water and ethanol mix, repeat and distill a few times, and you got corn licker.

You can't ruin gas by watering it, just pour water off the bottom, and suck gas off the top.

In fact widespread distilling might be the only way to get this shite stopped. the guvment hates not being in control.

well, guess its too late

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2011...-in-auto-fuel/

*sigh*

time for more fuck up engines/cars/boats/whatever.

I think i am moving out of the state because Im sick of government/lobbyist forcing everything down my throat.

We'll have a (choice) of ethanol blend to buy; 10% or 15%!

Decisions. decisions!

"It's hard; I have to work Saturday's and Sundays!":lol:

They sell next door to me in Midland, and I don't think it has ethanol, so, yeah, not all Murphys have ethanol, but I'd really be surprised if 100%gas can be found at street pumps in SA.

There's no one to check for the mandated 10% ethanol decals, and I don't think anyone at Walmart will give a straight answer.

I buy Texaco next door, and I know its good because I've gotten 27.1mpg out of it before.

However, I'm about to buy a test kit if they mandate it at all stations here.

just goto the fuel testers website they sell the kits. I am thinking about just buying a drum and skimming the ethanol out. From what I hear its not hard, just time consuming. If I can ever stop being lazy enough lol.

10% Ethanol is mandatory in NYC. :( cuz we have the biggest a-hole mayor. all the shit he did just fucks NYC more and more everyday. funny thing is, some morons I know who vote for him now regret his decision, no shit moron, hate to say I told u so.

same thing for NJ, and PA, so nope, nothing for me :(

You keep coming up with ideas, and when do I get to ride in your Cessna?

I took lessons in a 150 once long ago.

Ok, just lay the 55gal barrel on the side with the 1" bung with a valve at the bottom and 2/3 full of E10.

Run a water hose with about 10 gallons on that, and swish side to side, and let settle over night.

Open pet cock at bottom, and pour water out which will have lots of ethanol in it.

You will know when the gas comes because you can smell.

Then, everything in the drum is gasoline with way less ethanol than before.

Put isopropyl (rubing alcohol) in to clean up any leftover water, and I think you'll have at E05 or less.

Yeah I have seen a couple of methods, but you can seafoam the fuel instead of rubbing alcohol it. We only fly when we go back and forth to the ranch, but you missed out on the good flights which are during Xmas to go see all the lights!

why didn't you finish your license?

dont forget you will lose a little octane when you take the ethanol out!

I got up to soloing out of the Austin airport with a Cessna 150 in Feb 1973.

Last day I was out I was practicing power on stalls; it recovers really quick, but of course you gotta be up to 3k ft to make sure.

So when I try to land, keep getting cross winds at the last 100-200ft, and with the money I know will be expended to get proficient and buy a plane, I quit while I'm ahead.

In March of 1973, I see a working model of the Mazda rotary at some UT Expo, and go buy a 73 RX3 asap before Nixon devalued the $ 10%.

It cost $2995, and was my second best love affair; my RX8 is the best!

Docbeech,

So do you have a Cessna or a Beech?

One thing that I couldn't get past was the radio.

My hearings not the best, and I'm half crippled, but I just couldn't make out what the tower said.

I can barely hit the pedals for HPDE.

So what airport from DFW, Addison?

KHQZ actually. My dad and I fly Cessna aircraft. The Beech thing is just a coincidence. God I would to be a part of the family :P. No luck there though, Spent most of my time flying 152 Aerobat. We be poor folks who can't afford the good stuff.

One gallon of xylene for every 9 gallons of ethanol reprocessed E10 gasoline will produce 91 octane.

I here ya. I got ride with someone who came out to Pecos with a Cessna Skyhawk (150?).

Anyway, he was gonna show how good it performed on a 110deg day at 2700ft airport altitude.

Now I like to test it too, but power stalls at 3k ft above the ground, not on takeoff.

The plane is barely fliable at that altitude air density, and he's trying for altitude on takeoff.

The local crop dusting company, Lukins, had a son that took up some kids, was horsing around with low level power stalls to scare them, and accomplished a real good scare with a straight nose in.

Also, two different ranchers went up, put it on cruise, known to drink and fly, and disappeared.

I grew up with a healthy fear of machinery after watching lots of nonsense.

Oh, another guy who was a local freight guy with a new license, took off in fog, made a 2-3 mile arc in the sky, and went in at a left bank.

We both can see the basic errors made, but planes need real respect.

Or you need the right plane, the 152 is modified to be a performance flier, the 150 is more for just two people to enjoy flying. Uncoordinated power stalls are the best kind btw.

Just a quick datapoint for the discussion:

A typical target lambda for a forced-induction Renesis is .78. This translates to about 11.5 AFR for gasoline and 7.1 for ethanol.
That means that the target AFR in open loop will be almost a half point richer for E10 than straight gasoline. (9*11.5+7.1/10).
Though a half point isn't a lot in theory, when you take into account the different effective AKI of E0 and E10, you are giving up a huge margin against detonation.
Even though ethanol has an actual AKI of 122, its stoichiometric ratio is only 61% that of gasoline. So, in injected quantities equal to gasoline (since the PCM doesn't know any better), its effective AKI is only about 74!
So, an E10 blended to 91 AKI (RON+MON/2) only has the actual AKI of regular gasoline (even though you are paying for premium)!

So, when you are tuning for 11.5:1 on 91 octane and you switch to E10, you are now effectively "detuned" for 12:1 on 87 octane.

Zoom. Zoom. Boom.

This is why I shoot for high 10's on local fuel.

Yet another data point:

I just received my ethanol test kit from the EAA.
I tested two samples:Sample number 1 produced a result of 3% ethanol. The pump it came from is NOT marked with any sort of "oxygenate" warning, as would be expected from "race fuel", which this is obviously not. I do not expect, nor would I pay $7 a gallon for, "race fuel" that contains ethanol.

Sample number 2 produced a result of 13% ethanol. :uhh:

I am not pleased.

Had the gasoline in the tank not been diluted by almost 1/3, it might have produced a result as high as 15%!!!

I will get gas from a number of different stations around here and see who has the least - and the most - ethanol.

Wow. Where did you get that test kit? I found several places online but they look kind of shady to purchase from.

Uh, click the link in the post? :squint:

I checked the gas at the local "top-tier" station - Quick Trip.
There are quite a few people here in Phoenix (myself included) that swear by this gasoline brand and it certainly seems to have lived up to expectations so far in that it doesn't knock when other well-known brands would.
The test sample produced result of ~7% or so ethanol.

Is there any way that we can sue them for having more than what its posted ?

probably not worth the trouble and 15% is coming to rape us all soon (actual % is higher and we all know it :()

I love how Obama make it sound like "renewable" energy thing is such a wonderful thing ...

I know Corn-based Ethanol is not the only renewable energy but come on ~ that alone waste so much money that could be use for something else thats "WAY more" useful.

jesus. (

Scary stuff in regards to the wild swings in ethanol content. Honestly Jeff I think much of the differences result in people not knowing the difference. I'm very surprised with ethanol in race fuel. It makes me wonder how the hell it got in there in the first place if it is added at the station and not prior to being transported.

Its probably "premix" before transported.

Cuz one of the best thing about Ethanol is it raises the Octane rating ---- cheaply

It is, actually.
Of course, ethanol isn't technically "renewable" energy since the well-to-wheel is high and the resource itself is very limited.

It is a pretty big regulation violation. I think simply bringing it to the attention of the consumer protection groups and the station management would be enough to scare them straight.
It is likely that it isn't an intentional over-mix. Rather, it is the result of settling.
Of course, the Republicans want to do away with regulation, so such complaints will eventually fall on deaf ears.

15% is not certified for models older than 2007, so it will only be offered at specially marked pumps.
Remember - ethanol blending is not a money-maker for station owners.

Probably not.

Can't be done.

Not really.

totally agree with you MM and I am sadly not surprised by your finding. We got much the same results in Ga as you did. Even from some Top Tier stations.
This knowledge was one of the reasons I choose to install a water meth kit. At least i can bump up the octane a little. I am probably hurting the engines peak performance capability, but dont care.
This is a big thing for tuners. Obviously.

Lucas sells a product to help with the bad efects of ethonol, and the effects it has on the oil. Its 9.99 at autozone.. 1 Oz treats 5 gallons of gasoline.

http://www.lucasoil.com/products/dis...&%20Stabilizer

here is the link

interesting video i found

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuOs1yap8mU