RomanoM

The below is from SAE's Automotive Engineering International Magazine.

It's a topic for discussion, but take the "results" with a big grain of salt. The results are based on owner surveys and it includes only the FIRST 90 DAYS of ownership.

But, it's interesting, if not totally useful information

Unfortunately, warranty claims are the only good source of information to conclude if a car is reliable. Those numbers are never released.

The article:

blizz81

Yeah, somebody actually posted the second graph on here not too long ago. Let me reiterate my point made there:

Cadillac in second place, above Honda, Toyota, Acura, Nissan, Infiniti...

All the major domestic companies above Nissan except for Pontiac.

Buick and Mercury above Honda and Toyota.

big grain of salt indeed. A grain of salt the size of North America.

Hercules

*evil grin*

RomanoM

Wait are you saying GM makes lousy cars!


Why Caddy's are great for the first 90 days!


My old Camaro (a '95 or 'the cheese wedge on wheels) was flawless for 3 months, of course after that the body twisted so bad the doors and T-Tops would not seal, the cats melted, the engine inginition achieved free will, both rear brake calipers siezed, the radio went on strike and the AC thought engine fumes where good for your health.

otherwise a true gem of car.

I am glad to see that JD Powers reports are taken with the sarcasm they so richly deserve.

KyngNothing

ahhh, where every complaint is weighted the same!!

Why did they H2 score at the bottom? People didn't like the gas mileage...

#1 complaint about the mini? Cupholders...

Quick_lude

this DEPENDABILITY study after 3 years of ownership should represent the "truth" a lot better..
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/power9_20030709.htm

babylou

I have seen it before, am seeing it now and will see it in the future:

...Even though brand X in this statistical study of 55000 year 2000 cars showed well it is completely flawed because I owned a certain brand X car and it was a turd so all cars of that brand are turds.

...How can brand Y rank so low? I had one of these and it was rock solid. The statistics, covering 55000 vehicles, are wrong. My statistic, covering one vehicle, is correct.

...It is impossible that Mercedes and Audi were in last place. Everyone knows Germans are the greatest engineers of all time. Also, how can an American brand like Cadillac or Buick rank near the top? It is impossible! I know because all Americans are idiots (except for me...I am omniniscient) and therefore could never engineer a decent product.

These statistics are facts. They are equally weighted, unbiased and have a much larger sample than any of us can ever experiece. I can tell you that the auto manufacturers take them very seriously.

Supercharger

Lexus is #1.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news6/

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/..._0108_lexusis/

blizz81

Just because something is a statistic doesn't mean it can be a contextual gold mine for people just to apply to different concepts.

You can gather data for "problems with groups of 100 cars" without ever elaborating on the problems, or without speculating on possible 'problems' that didn't get reported.

It's a tough business to make any kind of useful studies or benchmarks for something like automobile reliability.

babylou

I agree it is tough but it is possible. I doubt anyone cars if one brand is 5% better than another. However, a 50% difference is significant. Basically what I am getting at is that all of the manufacturers have to play by the same rules. Also, since the sample is quite large I think nearly every anomoly is filtered out and therefore the stats are relatively correct.

blizz81

Quantity over quality, eh?

That speaks quite loudly to me.

So you don't see it any kind of "anomaly" that wind noise is given the same weight to "had to replace engine/transmission" as far as durability is concerned? At least they didn't strictly use the word reliability or else I'd have a good laugh at wind noise even counting for anything.

"Honey, I think my Excursion made a noise when I was going to pick up little Billy from soccer practice. That counts as a problem, right?"

KyngNothing

Ok, here's my other question about this survey...

Between Chevy, olds, and pontiac there is a 12 "point" discrepancy.... I don't think (other than the aztek... does ugly styling count as a fault?) that these makes have any cars that aren't shared.... how does one do so much better than the other?!?!?
Is this just showing how much the owners like to complain?!

babylou

Better post manufacturing inspection by one related make over another will make the biggest difference.

DonG35Miata

I almost bought a Mini and went into it with both eyes open. And those eyes told me the Mini is a quite problematic car many problem areas. Read the Mini message boards. The cars are plaugued with cracking windshields, coolant leaks, electrical problems, tons of rattles... and the car is not even that old. Edmunds has a long-term test Cooper S and they have had quite a few problems, too. One editor liked it, but said she appreciates Japanese reliability and could not stand to own the car given what they went through.

I think the "cupholder" affecting their J. D. Power ratings is pure spin from Mini and BMW NA.

I still may buy one someday- but only because I have two Japanese cars to fall back on :-) My BMW ownership experience was extremely unfavorable. As for a BMW made in England, well... if it has problems early in its life, I can assure you that the later miles will be positively hellish. Can't wait to see what BMW/Mini charges for "Inspection I" and "Inspection II" services once the free ride is up.