Maserati was did not have a profit for 17 years until they came with the new Gran Turismo in '06

Source: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...it-in-17-years

I still think Mazda will benefit if Maeda can bring an Rx-7 or Rx-9 with such an exotic curves that will inspire "Wow! I got to have one of these"

I was going to buy a Maserati Spyder in 2005 and the quality and design were not as I thought so Bought a Jag XK-R, the I saw the new Gran Turismo and It was 'Wow!', but was upside down on the XK-R.

If the make an exotic rotary with a 'Wow' styling, I'll be lining up for it.

What was the profit on rx8s according to you? After the transmission and engine failure rates of course.

Maserati is owned by Fiat. They also own Lancia and Ferrari.
Fiat had a 2011 fiscal year operating profit of $392 million. Their 2010 end of year OP was over $1B.
Sergio Marchionne, their CEO, makes in salary more than 1/2 of what Mazda as a whole company takes as a profit!

I was talking to RIWWP about this thread the other day, and I'm bored as all hell at work... so I might as well throw my 2c in with the rest. Largely I agree with every point Jeff is making. I think the problem is people on this board are already fans of a car that is -financially speaking- a failure. The RX-8 has not been a success for Mazda as a company, but we have all found things we like/love in them regardless.

The combination of poor reliability history both with FD3S RX-7s and Renesis/RX-8 motor warranty replacements has put Mazda at a huge disadvantage selling rotary engines even if they churned out 50 mpg city, 500 hp, and ran on hopes. Too few people are willing to risk the engine failures that have become synonymous with the rotary engine. Even fans in this thread have said, "I would wait until the second year of production to make sure they didn't have issues like they did with the RX-8."

So even if Mazda was able to make a "perfect" rotary motor they would have a very hard time selling it in quantities large enough to make a profit. Even worse, they cannot make a perfect rotary motor. The fundamental design of the rotary engine will always, 100% of the time be less fuel efficient and worse emissions than a comparable piston engine. Because those are two of the largest axis of metrics facing automotive manufacturers today it moves the sale of a new rotary car from difficult to nearly impossible. As car companies are being judged on the overall economy and emissions for their entire fleet, it would hit Mazda not merely for the investment in the car, but the dropped figures for their entire business.

Those aren't the only figures of importance, but things are even more woeful on the other side of the fence... performance. The expectation of the average consumer purchasing a sports car today is higher than ever before. They are expecting 330-350 bhp from moderately sized v6 engines and companies like Nissan are actually dropping weight and reducing the size of the cars like the 370Z making them lighter and more powerful. European and American sports cars are much heavier, but are putting out 400+ bhp regularly. The 2011+ Mustang is rated at 412 bhp and is significantly underrated from the factory, with many examples showing 450+ bhp off the showroom floor. We aren't talking cars that have had every ounce of NA power squeezed out of them either... minor bolt-ons can increase the output of most of the cars significantly.

Yes, there is definitely a market for light weight, fun cars without a lot of power... but there is no compelling reason for the company to make the powerplant a rotary. Mazda's other motors (MZR anyone?) are far more capable in fuel economy, reliability, and performance. Mazda's flagship car is the MX-5 and while I could see room in their lineup for a rotary option for the MX-5 I don't think it will happen. It is much more likely than Mazda developing an entirely new chassis and marketting it opposite the MX-5.

In the end, as someone said, people and companies do crazy stupid things all the time, so its not impossible that Mazda will make another rotary sports car, but if you are honest about the figures, you have to admit it would be crazy and stupid for them to do so.

I think you cannot understand this well. Sales Revenue is very important. I guess you didn't go to college. It is an asset and goes on the left side of the Balance Sheet.

Banks will lend you based o. How much income you get.

For example, take a corp to the bank with 5M revenue, 500,000 profit and ask for a 2M loan
Then take a corp making revenue of 200M and ask for same loan. Ask for a loan to finish your Rotary Miata, show them you make $30k. Now go do same on another bank, show them you are making $100k and you'll see how quick the Bank will draft you a check.

If you take a course on Business Administration you can see making big profit is not the main goal of many companies.

Another example... Go to a dealer to trade a car that is 'upside down' as it owes more than is worth and try to trade in for a Miata with no money down, then try do same trade for the Porsche and the dealer will be much more able to do this deal.
Hence.... more profit in the Porsche and less on the Miata.

The LFA may be loss on a profit margin view, but bring Good Will to Lexus... by the way, Goodwill is an Intangible asset (if Irish infant can understand that).

And that is what Maeda can do by bringing the new Rotary Serious Sport Car.













Then take another generating

:lol: @ SaveTheRotary


I found your entire post hilarious for a number of reasons, none of which have anything to with what you are actually saying.


But I'll leave it alone.

I don't get all the negativity from this board about these motors. On one hand we love them on the other hand they suck. Which is it? You can't have the fence post up your rear.

I am confused why some people still own their cars. For example I have yet to read a post lately where MM likes his motor and car. He discussed the MZR earlier and I would suspect he will have one of those in his 8 or a speed3 at some time. Please do not think I am bashing MM or anyone, but if I didn't feel good or like an engine in my car it would be gone or I would be on another platform.

You guys can run numbers all you want, but Mazda keeps making these goofy motors even when everyone says they can't. You have to realize its part of their identity. I believe we will see a new car before too long.

Then you haven't been reading very carefully (all you had to do was scroll back a bit in this very thread):

If reading carefully is anything like listening then my wife will tell you that I can't seem to accomplish it. :mdrmed:

A big block Chevy is more reliable cheaper to maintain and will have the same or more WHP than a Ferrari 458. I it will bolt right on into the Ferrari.... Would you swap a Chevy on the Ferrari?

IT JUST DOES'T FEEL THE SAME!

The S2K K24 engine is a great engine. The guys at K20.org are swapping it into anything, even Fiats. I do love Hondas but the Mouth Gargling sound they produce is not as exiting, thrilling or fascinating as a Ferrari or a Hayabusa bike.

Mazda has done a lot of work on the intake, but have not done a lot of work refining the exhaust to show new buyers how unique this engine is, to show how special is what's under the Hood.

Nissan has done a great Job with that. I wish Maeda can do it too.

The Chevy big block is a piece of junk compared to the one placed in the ferrari.
It has the "same" power but nearly double the displacement.
The k20a is completely comparable to the renesis but has many advantages over it from a "regular" (life expectancy in everyday use, fuel economy) environment.

I agree with you. The feel of the car, the feel of the engine, is a big part of the attraction that the 8 has for me. Well, most of the attraction. I'd rather swap a rotary into other cars, and have plans drawn up for doing just this for a Miata.

However, this is not the same with everyone. Mazdamaniac, for example, does not place any value in the feel of the engine, only the results of the engine. There are more out there that regard it the same way. And while they aren't going to change me, and my opinion, I have to acknowledge that I'm not going to change them and their opinion.

Just listen to this: http://http://vimeo.com/25843269

Invalid link.

Though you apparently missed the point of what I was saying. We place value in intangibles more than the people you are arguing with.

Sorry, here's the link http://vimeo.com/25843269

Once again: Well said.

With the rotary, you either get it (That smooth sensation) or you don't (And that's okay). It's like trying to convince some people of the beauty of classical music; it's not for everyone, just a discerning few.

Mazda's real challenge is to make the rotary more like a piston engine. By that I mean; you should very rarely have to check your oil. You should have no need to worry about moving your car and switching it off cold. Fuel mileage and emissions need to continue to improve and only the most abused engines should fail under 100k miles. I think that some of this has already been addressed with the S2 (09-11) RX-8 and I'm sure that the 16X is attending to the rest.

I look forward to a future rotary :)

Paul.

:)

We can change "classical" to "a genre" :) I have trouble with certain genre's of music, and no matter how much my wife argue's in it's favor, it doesn't make me able to accept or value it.

My conviction that Mazda will produce another rotary is almost entirely based on the belief that someone in Mazda, someone that matters, feels like I do about it.

Producing a rotary may be stupid from a financial perspective for the company. But then buying a rotary is stupid from a financial perspective for an individual. Buying anything that does not produce a return on investment or direct benefit is also stupid. So then it just comes down to what benefits you? I would be in a much worse place in life mentally if I did not have the pure enjoyment of my 8 to drive regularly. It's easy for me to believe that someone within Mazda feels the same way.

Sure, having the shareholders to face (be it stock owners, board members, or your wife and kids) is a big influencing decision, and they can certainly sway you away from where you want to place your money. But that doesn't change the desire or the will to make it happen. And where there is a will, there is a way.

oops--- what I meant was some people DONT understand that that the type of car i was describing WILL make a profit. I didnt realize i was using my OD decoder ring while typing.

Lots of good points by all.
I agree that the exhaust needs a better sound.

There are returns-on-investment when buying a Rotary, but not the type that can be quantified by dollars... it's entertainment value, smiles to the face, and general awesome feeling!

http://jalopnik.com/5792518/awesome-...360-is-awesome

Some people just like LSX motors I guess. The same way I like Rotaries. However I don't understand this one.

Putting that thing there is an insult to Enzo Ferrari.

It doesn't matter what someone makes, someone else will think they can make it better. The potential for insulting the maker is a reason for some people to avoid changing it, and it's a reason for some other people to pursue changing it.

Everyone will always have their own preference. I can't call down someone's preference or actions without having to accept their criticism on mine. And since I don't care for anyone bashing my choice, I don't bash theirs.

I heard the 16X engine for the new rotary already met their goals on emissions and economy, but not on Horspower. I'm hoping they come with a 24X version(3-Rotor) with that SKY-active technology. That will be worth the wait.

I've heard that the 16x met emissions.
I've heard that the 16x did not meet emissions
I've heard that the 16x puts out 300hp
I've heard that the 16x isn't hitting their power goals
I've heard that the 16x gets 30mpg
I've heard that the 16x isn't hitting their mileage goals
I've heard that the 16x was shelved and no longer in development
I've heard that the 16x is ready to go
I've heard that the RX-7 is being designed
I've heard that the RX-7 is ready for production
I've heard that the RX-7 isn't being designed
I've heard that the RX-9 is the next rotary
I've heard that there is no more rotary
I've heard that the next rotary will be turboed
I've heard that the next rotary will be a hybrid
I've heard that the next rotary will be coming out in 2010
I've heard that the next rotary will be coming out in 2011
I've heard that the next rotary will be coming out in 2012
I've heard that the next rotary will be coming out in 2013
I've heard that the next rotary will be coming out in 2014
I've heard that the next rotary will be coming out in 2015
I've heard that the next rotary will be coming out in 2020


Need I go on?


It's like a dartboard of possibilities and a blind monkey with a blood alcohol content of .60 throwing darts with bent fins.

If his blood alcohol level is .60 do the darts really need bent fins?