Lock & Load

The gold coast bulletin auto section ran a story on the upcoming mx5 saying that it will have a more powerful engine and also will feature a ROTARY ENGINE .The concept car will be revealed at the frankfurt motor show in september and also in the toyko motor show in october,the new shape has aspects of mazda 6 new mazda 3 and the rx8 .VERY INTERESTING ,a convertible with a rotary????

Edo

Could be interesting - given how light an Mx5 is/could be. Could frighten off some of the current customers though. Might be safer to run a "normal" engine too.

RobDickinson

Wouldnt a 2 seater rotary convertable be a new RX-7 tho?

I thought Mazda's plans were to use the RX-8's platform for RX-8, RX-7 and the MX-5, but the MX-5 was still going to be piston driven.

max_stirling

The belief over by the Miata list is that there will be two engines available to the Miata, one piston, one rotary. There's a chance that the piston engine will continue to be a 1.8l I4, but most likely be either a 2.0l or a 2.3l (from the 6) I4. The rotary engine will be detuned version of the RX-8 automatic. Read Hp will be <210.

At first, I thought it was a little confusion to have so many rotary sport cars, but it starting to make since. It all has to do with time.

The RX-8 is coming out this summer. The new Miata will be out in a year. The RX-7 (coupe) will be out (if RX-8 sales aren't dismal) in 2006-2007. A RX-7 convertible might not be out until 2008. That is a lot of time between the release of the rotary powered Miata and a RX-7 convertible. Also, there is already criticism that the RX-8 is not a true sports car due to the 4 door/4 seat configuration. Having a rotary powered Miata will quiet the non-believers and satisfy rotaryheads who want fewer compromises in there sports car.

Personally, I think the Miata should have the full RX-8 engine and take on the Porsche Boxster and the BMW Z4. Of course, this will mean beefier brakes, suspension, more chasis bracing, and a significantly higher price. Currently a loaded Miata is in the high twenties. I can foresee a loaded 250HP rotary Miata in the mid thirties, but with a base price still in the twenties. I think it is very doable and will help Mazda become a sport/sporty car manufacturer like BMW.

Hey, twenty years back, BMW, Porsche and Audi were on the verge of bankrupcy or exiting the US market. With inspiring cars and building an extremely loyal following, they have come back stronger than ever. This can happen to Mazda as well, but Mazda needs to stay focus and not make compromises that put it in the red in the first place.

maikeru

Hey, I drive a convertible with a rotary, and now that the swap is done it's a turbo rotary:D :D :D A miata with the full powered renesis would be a blast.

JaxFL_RX8

I've not seen that criticism in print or anywhere else for that matter. All reports I've come across have stated that Mazda has pulled off the feat with the RX-8. Please provide a source.

If it's the four seat thing, Porsche 911 also has 4 seats. If it's the 4 door thing, don't know what to tell you other than the suicide doors aren't traditional. Maybe that's the best way to describe the RX-8, an Untraditional Sports Car .

Gord96BRG

What Miata list? Over on www.miata.net 's forum, Bob Hall (father of the Miata, etc.) has made it very clear that Mazda will never put a rotary in a Miata - that is not what the Miata is about, and never will be (Bob, or 'bwob' as he signs his posts, is now a journalist and has very close contacts high up in Mazda Japan. He is in regular communication with them, which is why he's the one who broke the story of the next RX-7 concept being shown at Tokyo). Whoever believes that a Miata will have a rotary is entirely and absolutely mistaken, it will never happen.

The NC Miata isn't due for a while (2005, as a 2006 model), so it won't appear at Tokyo this year. It will have the 1.8 or 2.0 version of the new all-aluminum 4 cylinder as in the Mazda6 (already in use in the Euro versions) rather than the 2.3 which is the only version of the new 4 used in the North American Mazda6. The Miata's whole concept and purpose is as a light, nimble, simple, inexpensive roadster, which to Mazda means 4 cylinder engine only. It will never have a V6 or rotary. There was talk a year or so ago about the NC Miata using a cut-down RX-8 platform, but it has since been confirmed that the NC will continue to have it's own unique platform, with no part of the floorpan shared with anything else. It probably will share some of the RX-8 suspension components, though.

Regards,
Gordon

RXhusker

Wouldn't that make it an RX-5 Miata? The rotary engine seems to be a perfect match for the Miata (at least as on option) -- why the controversy?

ZoomZoomH

iTrader: (1)

because a rotary Miata will only confuse the market.

besides the Miata is all about value, right now a base Miata is like 21k or something, find me another roadster that starts at that price

I doubt ANY rotary car will ever be priced that low...

ggreen29

AUTOWEEK...one article by Mandel, and then a following article a couple months later. Both said it is NOT a sports car. Apparently they're hung up on the four seats and 2 half-doors. They say it handles just like a sports car, only it isn't one.

When I get home I'll find the magazine dates fer ya. AUTOWEEK is the only mag I know that has said this.

RX7 Guy

ZoomZoomH,

You're probably right but what a shame. Assuming equal economies of scale, rotary engines should cost significantly less to produce than even small four cylinder engines.

Just think of all the wonderful sports cars that have seen a metamorphosis culminating in their collapsing under their own weight:

(240Z...Genius, break-through design) (280ZX...Disgusting pig)
(FB RX-7...Cheep, fast, reliable) (FD...Super car cost without the pedigree)
(First gen. Supra...Soup'd up Celica) (See FD criticism)

Etc, etc, etc…

Currently, the typical Miata's MSRP is around 24K so I'd say it's quite a long way towards collapsing under its own weight as it stands. The inclusion of a rotary engine accompanied by the prerequisite leap in price would (IMHO) cause it to achieve the critical mass required to initiate the extinction process. RIP.

Schneegz

I don't see how a rotary Miata would "confuse" the market. I say offer the Miata with both the 210hp and 250hp Renesis. The 210hp version could be sold for a base price of roughly $20K. Nothing could touch it in performance/$. The high-power Miata would top out just under $28K.

Why would this not "confuse" the market? Because the Miata, the RX-8 and the RX-7 are completely different cars.

Think of them as sibblings. The 8 is the responsible 1st born that still likes to have fun on the weekends. The 7 is the bad-***, rebel middle child. The Miata (RX-5?) is the care-free baby of the family. Completely different personalities that will appeal to different people.

The Miata will not compete with the 8 because if you need 4 seats, you won't even consider a Miata. And if you don't need 4 seats, why spend all that extra cash on the 8? It won't compete with the 7 because, in order for the 7 to compete with the Z, it will need 280hp+ and an upscale interrior. The Miata would have a tasteful, yet obviously inexpensive (NOT cheap) interrior, and top out at 250hp.

At least that is what I would do. Mazda, of course, will limit the Miata to 200hp. That is a mistake. A 250hp Renesis Miata would give cars like the S2200, Boxter and Z4 a run for their money for a lot less cash. The 7 would be left to munch on 350 Z's and Corvettes.

But, hey, I'm just a lonely automotive enthusiast dreaming of what could be.

Lock & Load

If mazda wants to get ahead in the cutthroat bussiness of manufacturing cars it will have to adapt and improvise ,its what the public needs and wants that is going to put dollars in their coffers and not what the father of the miata or the rotary engine feels he would like to do ,the buying public is far more educated when it comes to buying a car and they vote with their dollars .

IMAGINE a situation where the buyer could get a choice of engines ,body types ,suspension ,and be able to get exactly what he whants ,to buy any car then have to change the exhaust engine specifications ,suspension ,etc makes little sense to me id rather pre order to my own specs .When you build your own home you try and get as close to your buget and your needs why not do this whit a motor car.

Surely the rotary engine of the year would shine in the new miata and it would be a true sports car,the public would pay a higher price for an outstanding engine

LONG LIVE THE ROTARY REVOLUTION

babylou

Cars aren't Legos. Are you prepared to pay the engineers that cost US$150,000 each per year to design the car exactly as you want? Oh yah, don't forget to build a few extra cars so you can go ahead and have the governmental crash tests and emmissions tests done. Finally, there might be a few $100k worth of tooling charges involved since you and only 73 other people decided they wanted the new RX-8 with a FWD I4 Diesel and solid rear axle.

Aeterna

I'm with Schneegz on the introduction of a 250hp Miata to compete with the S2000, et al. Understanding that Mazda is rebuilding/revamping their operations and image, I think it would do them well to challenge the sport/roadster market and BECAUSE of the fact of their 'return' to this area (playing with the big boys like Honda), something like a different style of engine, that is, the rotary, would exhude, "Hey, I'm the new kid to this arena, but I've been working on my performance, I'm different, and I wanna play on THIS court..."

Rich

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 250 HP Mazda rotary convertible, and I would love to see one if there's a good business case for it; but it's extremely unlikely to be called a Miata. The little that I believe that I've heard about the next Miata seems to support that it'll remain true to it's roots - and one core characteristic is that it's inexpensive. It's possible to option it up to $27k, but it's also possible to get a new one for under 20k. The Miata has been a consistent performer for Mazda and I don't think they'll mess with the formula in any significant way. Besides, even though plenty of people here don't believe him, bwob has said many times that it simply isn't going to happen. As long as he keeps saying that, I'll keep believing it.

Schneegz

I don't think anyone is arguing that it will happen. Several people (myself included) are arguing that they would like to see it happen, and that Mazda can pull it off and still keep the roadster (call it whatever you want) true to its "sports car for the masses" roots.

Think about it. Base price for a 250hp RX-8 is roughly $27K. But the RX-8 is an upscale 4-door sports car/coupe/sedan (whatever you want to call it). The roadster could share platforms with the Mazda3 or the RX-8. That would save money. The engines would be shared with the RX-8. Higher volume means more money saved. There are plenty of other interior and exterior parts that could be shared between the roadster and either the 8, the 3 and even the 6. More money saved.

A base roadster with a 210hp Renesis and a 5 speed manual (from the 6?) could easily sell for $20K and still turn a profit. People would line up around the block for such a car.

Then Mazda could offer a more limited production version of the roadster with the 250hp Renesis and the 6 speed from the RX-8. Again, sharing parts saves money. The high power version of the roadster would top out at $27K, and it would thrash on cars like the Z4, Boxter and S2000.

Will Mazda do what I propose? Hell no. Not even Mazda is that gutsy. But it sure would be nice.

Rich

If Mazda believed it would make a profit, they sure would do it. The fact that they're not (along with all of the comments from people who are inside on the development of the NC Miata) shows that it can't be done.
Isn't the Mazda3 a FWD platform? If so, there's no chance they would base the Miata off of that platform. For a long time people were saying that Mazda was going to have the NC Miata share the RX-8's platform. They recently decided against that approach. I don't claim to know why, but I believe that they had a good reason. It makes a ton of sense, so if they decided aginst it there must have been a very good reason.

In addition, convertibles always carry a cost premium over their coupe counterparts. Going the other direction seems very unlikely.

I fully agree that people would line up around the block for a next generation Miata with a 210 HP rotary at $20k, but I don't believe that's possible. Again, I don't have the knowledge of why that's the case, but I still believe it. An argument of authority shouldn't carry much weight, so I don't expect anyone to come to my side because of it, but bwob has laid out the reasons why it simply does not make economic sense. I think the better reasoning is simply that if it could be done at a profit, Mazda will certainly do it. It would be a world beater - we agree on that. The fact that they haven't means they couldn't in the past . If they do it in the future, few people will be happier than I will! I've been hoping for a rotary Miata for years. I own a Miata and love rotaries, so I'd probably buy a 210 HP Miata at 30k if they made it. Unfortunately that's about what I think it would cost. You also need to keep in mind that if they were able to put a 210 HP rotary in the Miata, they would also need to upgrade the brakes, suspensions, clutch, etc. That would mean more weight. In order to keep weight down, they'd need to either raise the cost by using aluminum or something else. Or they could sell it with the added weight and lose what makes the Miata so special to drive. Either way we're not talking about a 20K Miata any more. We're either talking about a 25k+ Miata or a 20k overweight Miata.

If anyone wants to actually read about the details of why I believe it's not possible, follow this link. Either do a search on "bwob" or scroll down about 1/5 of the page to his first post. The whole thread is good (and goes into far more detail than we could here), and I recommend everyone who is interested in this thread head over there. Note that I've linked to the third page, so if you want to read the whole thing you should go back to page 1. You can actually get some insight from someone who has worked on previous Miata versions, and who has intimate knowledge of the development of the NC Miata.

JMHO,
Rich

ZoomZoom

Remember the weight savings when using a rotary! Mazda claims that the rotary is engine is 30% smaller and 30% lighter than your typical 4-cylinder engine! That's a lot of weight that could be devoted to upgraded brakes, clutch, suspension, etc. :D

Edit: Corrected from 70% to 30% - sorry for any confustion!

Hercules

No, that's not entirely correct.

It's about 75 lbs less than a comparably powered 6 cylinder engine, and a tad smaller than a generic 4 cylinder.

70% smaller means it's nearly non-existent, and 70% lighter means there's nothing inside.

Sputnik

How do you get from a $27k base RX8 to a $20k Renesis powered roadster? Notice that those with automatics and the 210hp Renesis don't get any price breaks for the lower powered engine.

---jps

Schneegz

Recall that the auto RX-8 has a base price of about $25K. A base Miata with a 210hp Renesis would do away with the automatic. Automatics are usually more expensive. That saves money (and weight). The Miata is also a smaller car with only two seats. That saves money (and weight). A base Miata could sell without options like power windows, seats, etc. That saves money (and weight). The base Miata could do without traction control. Remember, this is a convertible and will sell best in warm weather areas where traction crontrol isn't really necessary. That saves money. Using parts from other cars already in the lineup saves money.

Keep vehicle weight at abot the Miata's current weight and what you have is a very basic sports car that emphasises performance over luxury. And if you want all those luxuries, you can always pay extra for them. That is the basic formula the Miata already uses, and I think it could be used with a Renesis.

I don't think that is the case. Remember, the Renesis weighs about the same as the engine currently in the Miata, so you wouldn't need to beef up the suspension. The current Miata's suspension could definitely handle a 210hp engine. The Miata is basically a great chasis in need of a more powerful engine that weighs the same as the one it already has.

Don't need bigger brakes, either. The size of the brakes is dictated by the amount of mass you're trying to slow down, not the amount of HP the engine produces. The Renesis doesn't add any weight, so the brakes can stay the same without detriment.

An upgraded clutch won't add an appreciable amount of weight. And the weight it does add will be close to the center of the car, so yaw inertia isn't affected appreciably either.

The argument that, if Mazda thought they could make money on this concept, they would have already done it, is not entirely correct. Corporations don't make decisions solely on the POSSIBILITY of profit. They also factor in the amount of RISK involved. The concept I propose if frought with risk. Mazda has proven that they are more willing to take risks than the average manufacturer. But, as I've said about five times already, This concept is much too risky for a large manufacturer, even one as adventurous as Mada.

Once again, I seriously doubt it will happen, but I sure would like to see it done

ZoomZoom

I stand corrected, from the Canadian sales brochure:

Thanks for the clarification Herc!

Sputnik

That's still a long way, and alot of assumptions and guessing on your part.

Quote:

...Using parts from other cars already in the lineup saves money...

And turns a true sports car like the Miata into another first-year Fiero (which used the parts bin method, with items like Chevette front suspension).

---jps

Schneegz

That's why it's just an internet board opinion, not a corporate proposal.

If you use parts from low rent turds like a Chevette, you end up with another low rent turd, like the Fiero. But if you use quality parts from quality cars already in production, like the RX-8, Mazda6 and soon to be Mazda3, you can end up with a quality car.

Nissan's Altima, Maxima, Z350, G35 and G35C, for example, use the same basic engine in varying states of tune. The Altima and Maxima share platforms, as do the Z350, G35 and G35C. And who knows how many other components they share.

Triumph and Aprilia have been producing very high quality motorcycles that borrow heavily from their respective stable mates to save money because they (Triumph and Aprilia) are much smaller than their competition. Now the larger motorcycle manufacturers are catching on to the same idea.

Start with quality parts, end up with a quality product.