Hercules

330Ci. I've driven this car many times before in the Drive for the Cure events, but today I drove a manual with the sports package. It was everything I wanted it to be. Luxurious, fast (at least enough for me), handles great and is an effortless experience to drive. It's everything I want in a car, really, but after talking with the dealer I think it will be a bit out of my budget, so there is no alternative to the RX-8, because the G35 Coupe is simply terrible if I had to use that manual transmission.

Which brings me to the S2000. I have to admit I'm not much of a roadster fan, but the Z4 changed that. I drove the 2.5L Z4 during the Drive for the Cure event and after that, I was hooked. These things handle really well, toss around really easy, and since they are relatively light weight, they are extremely nimble and fun to toss around.

That said... The Z4 does not hold a candle to the S2000. SLICKEST 6 speed I've ever used. The gears may have well been coated with butter because I flicked them in without even thinking about it... pure simplicity, pure ease, pure joy. Fortunately my dealer was one of the more adventerous and saw my sporting spirit when I got into the dealer, and gave me a good route to follow. After the hairpin U-turn, I realized that the S2000 is literally... the best car I've ever driven (and I've driven a 2002 M3 6 speed as well). It's fast off the line and FEELS fast... and the peakiness of the engine while not good for some for me... is GREAT! The higher you rev,the harder it pulls, and the more fun it is. You throw in into that hairpin U-turn and it doesn't even squeal at you.. it obeys your every command. I can kick out the tail ever so slightly and guide it with the throttle and steering -- the steering being some of the best weighted and giving some of the best feedback I've ever felt.

Some downsides, aside from the apparent lack of practicality in the S2000, is the noise. The car has a nice exhaust note, especially for a 4 banger, but honestly... it's really protruding even with the top UP! This also gives much against the stereo system which can't be enjoyed as much due to the cabin noise. The interior is good quality but as with most Hondas... very no-frills and it's not particularly entertaining or engaging like the RX-8 was (at the auto show when I saw it) or the 330. And of course as would be the biggest complaint in all ragtops... there's almost no visibility.

Thus.. I have rather made up my mind. The RX-8 is getting a test drive on Monday (ideally, if it's in by then). And from that I can guage HOW different and how much worse it will be. I say worse from the get-go, because I know the S2000 will be more fun... but I am not sure how much. If it's close to the S2000 in that fun-to-drive factor (which I think it will be, due to the weight, peakiness of the engine, and the transmission being great as well), I will negotiate to have it in my driveway the next day. However if the performance is quite a bit off from the S2000... I'm just going to, against my need of practicality and use... get the S2000.

I simply cannot pass up driving this car because as impractical it is.. I know I'll be rewarded with the big smile I had from ear to ear for about an hour AFTER the test drive today.

Like I said folks.. the Z4 cannot hold a candle to this car. Drive one and you'll know what I mean.

pelucidor

I want an S2000 but...
I have been lurking on this board for several weeks now. This is my first post so be kind...

For the last 6 months I have been afflicted by some strange psychological disorder. It seemed to start about the time I wandered into a Honda dealership one lunchtime and accidentally test-drove an S2000 (was looking at CRV for relatives). Two weeks and 3 test-drives later I was obsessed. I bought the S2000 book by Dan Carney and read it twice. I test drove the Z3, the Porshe Boxster, Audi TT etc to see if every roadster (sorry I meant two-seater convertible) was as wonderful (no - and 4-seat convertibles such as BMW 330 really suck in comparison to any 2 seater). I dreamt about the incredible engine and handling and the sweet gear shift every night and babbled about it every day to my wife.

Eventually to get some peace she told me to go ahead and buy it to replace my IS300 next summer when the lease ends - Spa Yellow Stook for $30k here I come...

And then a few weeks ago I had some.... wonderful news. We are expecting our first baby. Suddenly a minimalist 2 seater convertible is not the most important thing in the world - the family needs a car with 4 doors and 4 seats. But I NEED the 9k redline (every other car's engine seems so... inadequate now) and I REALLY need the best clutch/gearbox I've ever experienced (as good as the 5-speed Miata I once test-drove).

I resign myself to getting an Infiniti G35 Sedan (wife and I love the testdrive, dealership is wonderful) which is a great $34K vehicle that CAN look good with the right colour and the Sport/Aero package. Certainly a quick and pleasant car with bags of room - perhaps with 6-speed manual next year (but will it be a sweet gearshift?).

And then I remembered reading in a car magazine about some odd vehicle with a very odd 1.3 liter engine. Find the Road & Track preview - impressive. Four doors - check. Four seats - check. Beautiful interior and very nice exterior (some hints of S2000 methinks) - a bonus. But what is a rotary and why is it so small - it has the power and plenty of torque to go with the high redline, but will it be smooth.

So I find myself here - and the more I read the more excited I get. Learn about rotaries and find that they are a vastly more elegant design and SMOOTHER than piston engines - wow. Same gearbox manufacturer as the Miata - wow. Designed as a SPORTS CAR first (with hopefully great handling) and a sedan 2nd - big wow. Photographs of possible matching baby-seat - the wife is sold (designed for families of course!). The only negative is it's not a convertible, but that might not be a good idea from a safety perspective anyway.

So I put it to you - is the RX-8 a good alternative to the S2000 for those that really love to rev, love to change their gears using a clutch, love handling, but also need four seats?

akrx8

i dont think yur going to find the honda is all that much [if any] faster.its less powerfull and also has less tq than the 8.the s2000 is lighter but i have been also comparing these 2 cars closely and the numbers [atleast on paper] are almost identical.now i havent drove either car but im very familure with honda product and they are awsome cars.most tests i have read on the s2000 said they same thing about the noise and cheap top but that motor is great.just dont no of how long that valvetrain can last at that 9000 rpm mark.hondas are good but valves and springs [even titanium] take there toll over time at these engine speeds.

Strider

Well Herc I'm kinda speechless, but it is totally up to you. On a note for the S2000, I'm actually suprised about how many years it hasn't changed and is still holding it's own very well against the competition that gets thrown at it.

Just stay around should you happen to get the S2k.

Strider-

MarkW

Hercules,

Dont know if youve wandered into the Europe forum and read my long thread about the S2000.

I drove it and was hooked! The gearchange, speed, noise etc is fantastic and I came very close to getting one.

Im holding out to drive the RX8 first (unfortunately for us brits that's late October). If the RX8 doesnt impress me a S2000 will be on its way.

Im hoping I like the RX8 as Ive been waiting for six months and learning everything I can about it. Im looking forward to all the reports from the US expected in the next few days.

The UK RX8 is only 231ps compared to the S2000 240ps, so Im sure the Mazda will feel slower for us, but hopefully not by too much and it will make it up in other areas.

Cheers
Mark

cueball

Just to prove that the S2000 won a 5 car comparo in Car and Driver. It was put up against the 350Z vert, Audi TT ragtop, the new Z4, and the Boxter. Two of these cars are brand new and still lost out to the older cheaper S2000.

In the same magazine they also mentioned that in 2004 the S2000 will turn into the S2200. The engine will have more displacement with the same horsepower, but more torque lower in the rev range.


Herc, I am somewhat surprised at this revelation, but not shocked. You have always looked for possible alternatives should the RX8 fail to meet your expectations, so I knew you weren't going to buy the 8 if it didn't measure up.

If you do buy the S2000 I won't hold it against you. What I have always thought is if it makes you happy then buy it. It’s your life and you don't need to make others happy with your decisions. If you do buy the Honda be sure to stick around, but I'm not to worried about because I'm sure you'll be happy with the 8.

Hercules

The S2000 is actually the faster car... but that's not my interest.. it's the control, precision, and dynamics of the vehicle I'm going to look at more closely and I think in that regard the RX-8 should hold up just fine.

However, I am giving props where it is due. The G35C is out of the running entirely because after driving the 350Z again for the second time, I have come to realize the gearshift is worse than my father's 1990 Nissan Sentra and it would irritate me to no end. The car aside from that, is quite good and reasonably tossable but when comparing it to the S2000, it's just pale. And since my friends are all around 6 feet tall, the rear seat in the G35 is useless and thus.. makes no sense to get the car for practicality and thus I can just go straight to a two seater like the S2000.

However, I'm going to be patient and wait until tomorrow and see how the RX-8 holds up. Provided of course, that my car is in by then (!!!!!). I do feel though, that given the gearshift reviewed to be buttery smooth like the S2000s has shown to be, the weight is light, the balance is good, and the car revs high... I think it's going to be ideal for me, specially given there are two rear seats.

Chadr

Having worked at a car dealership for awhile I have enjoyed the luxury of driving nearly every non-exotic car on the market at this point.

This is my take on the S2000. It is any incredibly fun car and would be wonderful as a second toy car to drive over the summer when the sun is out and you want to just go tear up asphalt on back roads. That being said I think the joy would wear off VERY quickly for us NE people. The top on that thing has about zero insulation and you freeze your butt off over the winter (that is when we had it and when I drove it so I know this one first hand). Driving that car on a daily basis would drive me nuts with the drone of the engine constantly invading the cabin and all the crap that goes along with convertibles. If it wasn't a daily driver I would agree that the S2000 is amazing but I guess being closer to 30 now and needing something that doesn't make me insane with noise when I am on the highway doing 80 I am hoping the RX-8 will do the trick.

I will be curious to hear your comparison (my 8 should be here tomorrow as well) vs. my comparison. I guess my S4 really spoiled me since I very much like the luxuries now like heated seats, a quiet cabin, etc.

Hercules

I think after I drive the 8, my more sensible side will come thru and firmly weigh my options though I admit you're right... the cold weather will simply seep thru the ragtop and make an enjoyable car much less enjoyable.

I appreciate that insight because I had overlooked it... and hopefully the RX-8 will stack up where it matters.

rxeightr

The S2000 just keeps impressing the masses. It would be my choice if I didn't want seating for four, as I would enjoy the ragtop the RX-8 as of yet does not have.

In everything I've read, the RX-8 should act like a S2000 in acceleration & handling. What that said, the only car I can consider is the RX-8 that will finally be mine this week.

Your choice Herc. It's a shame to think you may push your RX-8 beyond what you should before proper break-in, but it sounds like the only way you will know for sure. Of course, you are leasing, so hopefully you will not own it long enough to deal with any harm caused by too soon spirited driving.

revhappy

That was an excellent and thorough review. Until the EVO put a :D on my face, my decison was between the S2K and the RX8 and my thoughts were exactly as yours : If the RX8 comes close in providing the driving dynamics and experience (except for the convertible part) as the S2000, then it would be the RX8.

Hercules

Evo may be a great performance car, but the interior is so terrible I don't think I'd be able to keep it putting a smile on my face. Besides, I do want an RWD car

revhappy

Its not that bad, but I've been driving economy cars my whole life!

Farsyde

Hmmm that's a crappy name. What could be in a spa and is yellow......someone's little accident? So now you have a pee colored car

Wow i don't know. Even though the displacement goes out to ~2200cc, S2200 just doesn't roll of your tongue as well as S2000.

I however will sacrifice the 2000 for the no piston, no rods, no timing belt (i hate them so much) rx8.

RomanoM

I've owned 3 BMW's and every review I've read seem to read like BMW 3 series reviews. Great body control, fun to drive, well balanced, smooth engine, great shifter and clutch, firm but not harsh ride, etc....


I may get my first ride in the RX-8 next week (keep fingers crossed) and I will be comparing it to my past 3 series cars in my mind. Let you know how it holds up to my now gone E46.




Off topic - watching the CART race, damn CART racing has become crappy! To bad.

pelucidor

Most of the S2000 colours are named after racetracks such a Spa, Silverstone, Sebring, Suzuka etc.

The RX-8 had better be VASTLY better than an E46 330i for driving fun or else I'm not getting it.

pelucidor

It's funny how for the RX-8 I complain that the 8-way power seats don't have a memory feature, or that the BOSE system might sound poor (unlikely to be that bad after latest reviews). However for the S2000 I could happily live with the 2-way adjustable manual seats and a stereo that is the worst I have ever heard in a new car - the driving sensation is literally that good in the Stook that you forget/forgive all else. For those that think the S2000 is undrivable in cold weather check out www.s2ki.com for feedback from owners in Minnesota, Michigan and Canada.

Herc - I recently drove a G35 Sedan auto and then a G35 Sedan 6MT. A year ago I thought the 5AT manumatic was good and reasonably quick to 'manually'-shift - now I think it is good but slow and still a crap alternative to a real manual. I though the 6MT was a great gearbox/clutch combination - better than any BMW 330i/Z3 5MT effort or various manual IS300's, Boxster's, Audi A4's etc that I have driven in the last year. The gearshift is short-throw and precise and the clutch, while heavy for a Japanese car, is linear and predictable. Not in the same league as the S2000 or 5MT Miata (did not like 6MT) but better than any sedan/coupe I have tried. I hit redline in the first 3 gears (redline comes up very fast) and spun the tires from rest and at 1-2 and almost at 2-3 (stability/traction were off). The test drive was about 15 miles with many right turns and a lot of shifting plus a stretch of empty highway where I got it over 100mph too easily. The only negatives were vibration through the stick in neutral, and that it took me a while (10 miles) to manage a smooth upshift from redline - below 4000 rpm shifts were smooth and easy instantly.

Perhaps the G35 6MT you drove was not a good representation, or perhaps the Sedan is different from the Coupe.

khoney

Herc, I was wondering if you are an auto-Xer. The handling, driving dymanics etc. seem to be of paramount importance to you, and you have always stressed this in all of your posts, yet I can't remember you ever saying that you autocros. The truth of the matter is, unless you autocross, no car that you drive will be (or should I say should be), driven to its full potential on a public thoroughfare. I certainly respect your decision to get whatever works for you, but for me, it's just the uniqueness of the 8 and the smile factor that I already KNOW it will have. I have no doubt that I will enjoy this car, and the MAJORITY of the time I will be driving it in somewhat congested traffic - there will be occasional opportunities to really have fun with it, but for the most part it will be limited to onramps and cloverleafs. Just make sure you consider your primary driving mode before you make your decision.

Hercules

I've been known to autocross a little bit, though not in the current cars and not in my Millenia as it's too sluggish to be of any enjoyment.

As per the 6MT in the G35/G35C/350Z... no, it's horrendous. The 3 Series BMW are far superior in this area believe me, as I've driven manual transmissions from a lot of automakers. I understand if some people get comfortable with it, but to have the fluidity that the Miata or S2000 shifters do, the car will NEVER come close, it won't even hold a candle. For me, the shifter is bad enough to disqualify the car entirely.

In comparison though, I'd place the S2000 and Miata shifters as a tied first place, the BMW as second, then Audi, Lexus, and probably one of the last on the list would be Infiniti/Nissan. I think this is an area I get too touch on and to be honest, other people may not feel as irritated about the shifter as I am, but I honestly feel without a solid shifter half the fun of the car gets taken away. In the 350Z it really felt like I was 'working' to shift... it's not really explainable but to compare again, when in the S2000, I just shifted.. didn't even think about it. It was buttery smooth and sweet.

The G35C could be a car with a lot more character if the transmission was better. It handles well and is quite controllable though you never get the feeling of nimbleness or agility in this car that you do in a smaller, lighter car like the S2000. The 350Z to me, seems very bloated and the interior is extremely cheezy; it's also a two seater which weighs against it.

After considering cold weather, the S2000 might be a terrible car to have all things considered and thus, the RX-8 better make me happy! Of course, as with all things... I'll post a long and detailed review when I drive it, and if it's positive, you can bet I'll have it in my garage the next day (takes a day for insurance).

So stay tuned for that

Lock & Load

Hercules ,iam not suprised ihave been having same thoughts re s2000 i have driven the rx8,but i prefer the s2000 even though the rx8 has the 4 seat advantage .INorder to keep engine noise out and keep you warm in the winter get the hard top it only weighs 20kg and its easily removable .3 cars for the price of 1

CONVERTIBLE WITH HARD AND SOFT TOP ,ANDat a price slightly above the rx8 the honda dealers are really tryng hard to do great deals i can get a s2000 with hard top for 15%under recomended retail price .To do the right thing by my dealer and the rx8 i will give it one more test drive this time on the real world and if it does not do it for me s2000 here i come.

m477

One thing about RX-8 vs S2000 I'm curious about - with the RENESIS I'm reasonably sure that I can bounce the needle off the rev limiter every time I drive it and the engine can still last for hundreds of thousands of miles (assuming it's always properly maintained and warmed up first, etc). What about the Honda engine? I know it's very solid, but will it really hold up to that kind of high revving abuse the way a rotary will?

Lock & Load

The honda s2000 has been out since 1999 and it has been well and truly tested ,and its engine and built quality is second to none ,the fuel comsumption figures are also better than the rx8 ,the only down side is that its only a 2 seater ,but there is no question as to the cars true sports car heritige.IF you need 4 seats go for the rx8 but the s2000 IMO will be the collectors and truesports car enthusiast preefered choice the rx8 especially the 1st years production is not tried and tested ,neither are its resale values .From the yuppies point of view HONDA is still seen as more prestigious brand name than a MAZDA even an rx8, in time maybe mazda will be seen as a up market vehicle .

Every one off us has to decide which car is for them ,and be happy with their decision ,i might try the s2000 1st and then go for the rx7 in 3 years time.

pelucidor

Get the 100,000 mile warranty from an extra $700 from Honda for peace of mind... Honda builds small piston engines better than anyone else - it will be bulletproof.

Jimmylove

Glad you liked the S2000. Had a feeling you would, based on your previous posts. Roadsters are things nobody needs, but rather WANTS. Although most people on this board would like to see you purchase an RX8, I say purchase the car that speaks to you. you'll know after 10 seconds behind the wheel.

The rifle-bolt S2000 transmission is simply incredible, and gives the driver an impression he/she's driving a precision instrument.

I have to agree about the G35 shifter. Feels like a cable linkage: numb and lifeless. What I don't understand is that owners seem to rave about the shifter, which makes me wonder if they've driven anything else.

Skyline Maniac

Haha, I drive a car with crappy transmission. So I guess the Nissan trio is out of the running for Hercules. :D Excellent~

IMHO, S2000 shifter feels better than the G35C, but the new Nissan 6MT feels better (more connected) than the BMW's I drove. (after break in anyways.... my tranny worried me when I first picked it up. It has improved vastly after break in.) The direct link no-insulation connection of the Nissan tranny takes some getting used to. Interestingly, FWD Hondas also have good transmissions, they are very smooth, even though they feel tooisolated.

The S2000 is an awesome car to drive around. I was very impressed after getting a ride in one on an AutoX track. It feels very tossable and nimble. Fun to drive, reliable, proven, fast, convertible and has an engine to die for. Sport car doesn't get much more fun than the S2000.

BMW has the name you can't deny. Interior quality and engineering are industry standard. BMW is the sport sedan/coupe benchmark for very good reasons. If you can pay up the bill, the Bimmer is definitely a top contender.

Anyhow, test drive or not I bet Herc buys the RX-8. :D