VikingDJ

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...hp?t=123644819

JRichter

It sounds feasible. What is Mazda's claims? 274hp/280lb-ft and this guy got 241.7-249-9 whp and 265.9-271.9 lb-ft.

Perhaps the actual torque could be a little higher than Mazda claims. I don't know how drivetrain loss affects torque. I don't know much about dynoing but that looks about right for drivetrain loss on the hp.

Ike

Probably not, might be a little high and he's leaving out a mod or the dyno is uncorrected. Overall I'd say it's pretty accurate since the Turbotrix dyno is a little generous.

VikingDJ

I suppose if this is real, the STI then would dyno at around 260+whp on this type of dyno bone stock. Most of the bone stock STi dyno's I've looked at have been lower then this, and even though the MS6 weighs 250lbs more then the STI, there's no way it can come close to one in an equal driver race, even from a roll. It just seems very generous to me. Thanks for your input.

Renesis_8

The crank HP should be around right as advertised most dyno shows, however this car has a lot more torque than the number on paper, not suprised if its over 300lb/ft at the crank
________
Web shows

Japan8

No matter how you look at it the STI is both lighter and has more horsepower than the MS6. Add in wider rubber and a better AWD system... it makes sense why it is significantly faster.

dmp

Every turbo dyno should be 'uncorrected'

VikingDJ

Why yes, that's stating captain obvious. However, the STi does not dyno regularly much more then these numbers on the MS6, which is why I brought up this thread. Throw 250lbs in the trunk of an STI, it will still take out a Mazdaspeed 6.

I was curious about this dyno. Imagine the Mazdaspeed 3 dyno'ing at 240whp and 265 feet of torque at the wheels. If this dyno is accurate, we are looking at a car that potentially can take out an STI from a roll., being that it's putting out as much whp, and more torque, yet weighs less. I'd appreciate some insight on this, with as much objectivity as possible.

Post Edited: I spent some time, and looked up many different dyno charts on the Mazdaspeed 6. They are not producing 240hp at the wheels 90% of the time. The torque is about right though. I guess I have come to my own conclusion that this dyno is either BS, the car was modified, or like Ike stated, this particular dyno is over-generous or not corrected on the HP. Most other dynos match the torque accurately, but the hp is about 20-25whp less on average. Thanks for your input guys.

BigOLundh

iTrader: (1)

Since when was the MS6 supposed to be competition for the STi?

I see the two as different cars for different people.

-hS

VikingDJ

No competition. I was just trying to figure out the accuracy of that dynograph that posted on this thread, and since I have owned an STI, and traded it in for a Mazdaspeed 6, it made for a good comparison dyno-wise to figure out whether this dynograph is accurate. I was just thrown back when I read that thread about how the Mazdaspeed 6 put out over 240hp to the wheels. I just looked at several of bone stock MS6 dynos, and they all show around 210-225whp max on a bone stock Mazdaspeed 6. This is the first and only dynograph I've seen that's this generous. That dyno is more along the lines of a turboback downpipe modification, not bone stock. That's probably what it is. It's modified.

Mikeluvs8

thats not bs my buddies bone stock ms6 put out 244whp and 277wtq on a dyno jet, ms6 is a sexy car.

VikingDJ

That is a damn impressive HP number. The Torque is definitely there on these cars, and I'm not questioning that. I know I am only going by a butt dyno, and comparing a large variety of dynos that have been done on this car. I can't imagine my MS6 is putting out these type of numbers on any type of dyno. I'm likely in that 220whp range, that most Speed6 owners are in. A guy I know personally that lives locally dyno'ed his 05 STI, and put out numbers below what your friend did on his MS6. Even with a 250lb weight advantage, the STI would have it's hands full from any type of roll when facing a Speed 6 with these kind of numbers. I hope if and when I trade this in for a Speed 3, I can get one that has the power it should.

I guess if certain people are producing these types of numbers, they have one pretty damn fast Speed6. What gets me is why overall the Speed 6 has yet to produce high 13s in the 1/4 mile, and the trap speed is in the 95mph range. I realize that certain types of dynographs are inconsistent, and so many factors come in when dyno'ing a car, and the car itself isn't the best out of the box, but 244whp and 277 wheel torque? I am not calling BS on this, I'm just surprised that's all. 250lbs more weight should not make the Speed 6 that much slower then an STI in a straight line, and my previous STI vs this Speed 6 I got is night and day, meaning my STI was putting out more whp. Don't misinterpret my intentions on these posts. I enjoy this Speed 6 more then my STI for commuting to work. I'm merely a guy trying to understand how this works, so I can learn and understand, as I just find it very interesting. I'd love run with your friend's Speed 6 against mine, and verify the discrepency. It does not upset me that my Speed 6 is not the beast that some other people have, since it's just a lease. It's intention is to get me to work, and it sees all highway, and a lot of traffic. It's a great car, and some people really get lucky when they buy one that dynos at these numbers. If and when Mazda gets these types of numbers on a regular basis, the Speed 3 is gonna be a very dangerous encounter for any stock EVO or STI owner, who has yet to modify.

Renesis_8

If I remember correctly, the MS6 is almost as fast if not faster than the STi from 80-120 kph, thats around 55-75mph
________
XSexyKittenX

VikingDJ

Perhaps that is, as I can't really measure that on my own, but after 75, it's lights out, at least with my cars. I hit a straight away from a roll in the same spot I always did in my STI, even before I went stage 1, and it can't touch the final speed my STI on that road. There's just a descrpency between each car made, as the whp varies, so I don't doubt that it can occur in some cases, but in my case, it's really not all that close when comparing power. Again, it doesn't bother me, I just enjoy comparing what I used to own to what I currently own, to see how it stacks up.

Japan8

Have you had the latest flash done on your MS6 yet? I've been wandering around a couple boards and there appears to be yet another flash after the one to deal with the power loss issue. Supposedly this one is both smoother and pulls harder.

There is a guy on one of the MS6 boards that is pulling great times with this MS6. Mods are minimal... as not many exist yet. The biggest one is probably the change to a custom FMIC... which people say makes an otherwise stock setup keep pulling on the top end...

VikingDJ

There have been mixed results regarding the reflash. I've read a lot of complaints on the forums saying it's worse, and half the people are telling you not to get it reflashed. Some claim the car feels more smooth and powerful overall, others feel like they got short changed, have lost power, and want their old flash back. It's a toss up really. My car may or may not have been flashed, as I purchased it shortly after the recall. When I take it in for service, I'll see whether it's been done.
Considering this car is slower then the Legacy GT (rated at 250hp), and runs low 14s, it's too easy to question dyno numbers legitimacy in the 240+ whp range. You'd still think with that kind of power this car would have tested in the 13s without too much trouble. I'd love to get a ride in one of these 240+ bone stock whp Speed 6s, so I could see for myself. To see this big beast run with EVOS and STIS would be pretty impressive. Unfortunately, right now, that's not the case, as it's not as powerful as it's rival, the Legacy GT, and apparently there's still a lot of tuning issues to be worked out with this engine. Still, it's a super machine, so no complaints here, just curiousity.

Japan8

Are we both talking about the flash AFTER the recall? There is yet another that they said JUST came out in August I think it was. Either way... won't hurt to check on it.

I don't think the difference in numbers is because of under or over statement of the power, but rather... the MS6 is significantly heavier than a Legacy GT. It also is pretty much limited to the stock width tire... everything else will rub... add springs and even with rolling your fenders it looks like everything with still rub. The last problem... I'm putting a lot of money on the intercooler. Size and location. There are some upcoming TMIC replacements, FMIC kits and even a air/liquid IC it seems. The numbers that available thus far show this to be a big bang for the buck with this car.

Kinda makes you wonder... MS3 or MS6... at the current prices the MS6 is going for about the same or less... bit different strokes, but which is more fun to drive? The reviews are looking like the MS3...

VikingDJ

Well, as far as weight goes, you are talking about 134lbs difference between the Legacy GT manual and the MS6 Sport. Add 50lbs for the GT Speed 6. Also, the Legacy GT is rated at 243hp and 241 feet of torque. The Speed 6 is 274hp and 280 feet of torque. So, 134lbs is enough to make the Legacy faster while producing over 30 less hp and 50 less feet of torque?
I suppose one can argue that the Legacy GT is underrated in power, but many times it's producing better dyno results hp wise. The torque is there for the Speed 6, but it's lacking consistency in power. This is far from unresolved.
As far as reflashes, I just got done reading about the most recent reflash, and that is the one that is getting mixed results. Many feel it downgraded their car, and that this car is still not running right, and missing the power it's supposed to have. The Speed 6 has indeed lost it's appeal, which is why it's selling for such a great price. The MS3 is only gonna make it less desirable because it's going to outperform the 6 in every aspect. For what you can get one for, you cannot really complain about the power issues, but personally I'd like to understand this better, as I'm still learning. I wanted a Legacy GT, but I was unwilling to pay more for that car, when I could get what in my opinion is a better looking MS6, for thousands less. No doubt in my mind the Legacy GT is the better overall car, however not for the price you can get a Speed 6 for. It's such an incredible value, much like the RX8 has been. I look forward to seeing Mazda get this engine off the ground, and tuned right, because the potential is definitely there. It's still a work in progress, but time will tell.

Japan8

You are right though. The weight difference between the Legacy GT and the MS6 isn't that large. On the handling front, VAG did good with the A4 platform... so much that even the nose heavy RS4 handles well and is said to not be nose-heavy. I'm not sure what mazda's issues are with the MS6... since this engine is also used in the MS3 and CX-7 it makes one wonder about issues with those cars too. Yes... as Cobb has said... the ECU is different in the MS6, but unless it's a programmatic problem or not enough hardware processing power... I don't see how that can be the cause of the issue. The only other thing I can think of is the tuning... the higher boost in the MS6 despite running the same size intercooler. When considered in conjunction with the early reports on FMIC and TMIC (AutoExe) replacements... that could be a source of some of the troubles. Only time will tell I guess.

I agree... the MS6 at it's current prices is a much better buy than the Legacy GT. Styling is a matter of personal preference (Legacy GT for me), but you are getting a lot of car for the money at the discounted MS6 prices. But then one wonders about the MS3 with it's glowing reviews. The only thing is going FWD and the lack of full leather interior... it's also more likely to get street racers attention...

I suppose if one wants a Legacy GT or A4 S-Line... but has more of a GTI/MS3 budget... that the MS6 would be at least worth a serious look.

VikingDJ

Thanks for the good information. I would have preferred a Legacy GT, not just because it has more power, but because a Cobb AP alone will put it near the STI power wise. You don't get that with the MS6, as it's a touchy and moody car that you can tell needs fine tuning. I'd imagine the MS3 will have issues, but due to it's light weight, and what it's facing competition wise, not to mention it's slightly lower hp rating, it really won't be much of an issue, and in time this car's success will create a successful way of tuning and modifying.

The MS6 will be gone from the market after 07, but discounts will remain large on this hard to sell car. It's a great machine, but can't sell for even invoice, so it makes sense why they have to offer these incentives to let them go. No regrets here. This car is absolutely fabulous from a non-enthusiast standpoint, even with it's power issues. I took advantage of the insane lease deal so I can unload this baby after 2 years/and/or putting 24k miles on it. I'll be ready to decide on a car in the summer of 2008. Heck, if this car is good to me, and they get this tuning right, I might decide to keep it, because it's really a well built car, just like all Mazdas.

BTW, here is the link on the feedback of this new reflash. From that reading, I'm gonna just live with the car as it is, and keep an eye out for more developments. They obviously still have a lot of work ahead with this engine.

http://www.mazdas247.com/forum/showt...3633337&page=3