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Just a huge hypothetical here but say if Mazda were actually able to produce a new product who's main focus were to be a sports car, what would you like to see?
I personally have waited many years for anything to come down the production line that's purpose built. Especially since there's always been this 'we won Lemans' theme everywhere with zero re-enforcement (sans the 1 time). The 90's were a great time for Mazda. The production line was vibrant and exciting imo. Fast forward today and models offered are essentially targeted towards middle aged soccer moms and somehow still shoving 'motorsports' down our throats in marketing.
I've always dreamt of piecing together my own mid-engine rotary paired with scrap Porsche parts. So let's say Mazda is able to produce 2,000 new RE-A 'style' inspired AZ1's offered at around $100k each. Limited, exclusive, exotic (as JP can be) and unique. A bold statement like this would certainly win my favor and I think possibly the only thing which could change the trajectory of the brand at this point (boring current models and needing to introduce new models to stoke genuine excitement). This effort would be a very serious drop into a very real hat that they once upon a time had a very real stake in. Yes, the price is steep but that barely gets you into sports car price territory these days. I'd be very excited to see the effort and entertain putting the money down to commission my own.
For a 100th anniversary this isn't much of a party and it's generally only the capt that goes down with the ship because I'm pretty sure all those people on the Titanic would have loved a life boat.
Please feel free to drop a line and thanks for looking!
Just a huge hypothetical here but say if Mazda were actually able to produce a new product who's main focus were to be a sports car, what would you like to see?
I'm personally preferring AT these days (no comparison in performance) and unfortunately I would never ever buy that. The 'Vision' above is not RX in any way and plain marketing fluff. All I ever see is talk, concept drawings, digital renderings, etc and not too dissimilar how fans crowded around the Furai before it's untimely demise.
Now you didn't seriously compare the 'Vision' against a fully outfitted AZ1 Amemiya car with 20b turbo did you? They're in different universes completely. Let alone 1 is a real tangible thing and the other is not.
Any Mazda designated by RX_ implies rotary experiment. There is no exception. The fact that there are people willing to accept this blasphemy demonstrates a lack of the awareness by the average Mazda consumer. Let alone the 'enthusiasts' who entertain / justify / legitimize this bs just because they get to add a new friend into the fold.
Faking the funk to the highest degree. Just like how a man who transitions to female will never bear children, ovulate or possess a uterus.
Last edited by Federighi; 11-05-2020 at 02:19 PM.
Reason: wrote some more
Ya know what I could see Mazda pulling completely left field is having the rxvision and vision coupe be twin cars like they used to do back in the day with rx3/808, etc.
rxvision would be rotary hybrid (not ideal but set in reality) and the vision coupe with the I6. similar price/power/mpg if applicable
Restyle a classic, stay close to the original design and give it all the modern bells and whistles.
RWD or AWD. MT or AT option.
Call it anything but an RX, say MazdaSpeed FD, or like the old number badges re: 727 or 929
Put whatever high performance engine Mazda engineers can come up with or source, into whatever traditional, mid-engine, or rear-engine configuration that would result in a well balanced, handling champ like the 8.
A coupe with something iconic like old style Ford GT doors, or the Mercedes Gullwing.
Not Lambos.
$100k is a pipe dream. I mean, lots of performance cars with good economies of scale can already reach that price. A base Porsche 911 is around that price range. I would double that number.
Originally Posted by Federighi
NOOO!!! The battle is already lost I see...
Any Mazda designated by RX_ implies rotary experiment. There is no exception. The fact that there are people willing to accept this blasphemy demonstrates a lack of the awareness by the average Mazda consumer. Let alone the 'enthusiasts' who entertain / justify / legitimize this bs just because they get to add a new friend into the fold.
Faking the funk to the highest degree. Just like how a man who transitions to female will never bear children, ovulate or possess a uterus.
I have no idea how Mazda can do it. Usually when car companies make something like this, sure, it's partially to showcase the technical prowess they possess, but part of it is to also pave the way for some of its techs so eventually, they make their ways to volume cars.
There is also the issue of how Mazda is going to sell it. People are willing to throw money at a P-car or a Ferrari. Not so much for a Honda or Mazda.
So realistically... Maybe something like a performance Skyactiv-X? That would be cool and can be trickled down to the volume cars, eventually. Or like Sonic said, a rotary-hybrid as that also can be trickled down. Again, everything nowadays has to have economies of scale. That's just how it is.
I think they can make a throw back car and a halo car, those don't need to be the same thing. The RX-vision (whether RX or not) sounds like the right idea - it's new, latest and greatest tech, vision of Mazda's future. An FD relight will never not be welcome, but that necessitates a rotary heart which is going to be a hard sell unless they've made some kind of breakthrough. If they do have a breakthrough, the ND chassis is very capable, give it a stretch and you're almost there.
But back on the halo car, the RX-vision has many right ideas for a production car, but probably not a halo. I'm sure if they went full LFA with it, they could find a few thousand buyers. Mazda brand should be able to carry it. I'm just not sure the concept would be memorable. If they wanted to go really crazy, maybe they can build a Skyactive V12 and a power monster chassis to compete with Hellcats. How far can you stretch a Miata? Is it crazy for Mazda to play up there? YEAH. Does it make any market sense? Nope! But if Skyactive is what we're betting the farm on, you may as well. At least it will be memorable!
I think they can make a throw back car and a halo car, those don't need to be the same thing. The RX-vision (whether RX or not) sounds like the right idea - it's new, latest and greatest tech, vision of Mazda's future. An FD relight will never not be welcome, but that necessitates a rotary heart which is going to be a hard sell unless they've made some kind of breakthrough. If they do have a breakthrough, the ND chassis is very capable, give it a stretch and you're almost there.
But back on the halo car, the RX-vision has many right ideas for a production car, but probably not a halo. I'm sure if they went full LFA with it, they could find a few thousand buyers. Mazda brand should be able to carry it. I'm just not sure the concept would be memorable. If they wanted to go really crazy, maybe they can build a Skyactive V12 and a power monster chassis to compete with Hellcats. How far can you stretch a Miata? Is it crazy for Mazda to play up there? YEAH. Does it make any market sense? Nope! But if Skyactive is what we're betting the farm on, you may as well. At least it will be memorable!
Mazda is broke AF though. They can't afford to do something that doesn't make sense.
Even Toyota is playing safe, perhaps way too safe, but they are in a far better financial situation than Mazda. I can't even see something crazy like that coming from Ford or GM.
Again, whatever they stuff into the halo car has to have some economy of scales so the technology can be applicable to the mass production cars. The only exceptions to the rule essentially only sell halo cars.
The thing is that the competition nowadays are really fierce and there are too many things Mazda has to do to catch up. MX-5's trick is to rely on lightweight and simplicity, but when you are fighting against the big boys, there are too many things Mazda doesn't have right now to be competitive if they want to tackle that battleground.
My thought would be to just do a Grand Tourer sort of deal, like the LC500. Comfortable, luxurious(which matches with the new direction Mazda claimed), good-looking(that's almost too easy for Mazda). Give it a fairly strong powertrain and call it a day.
Again, whatever they stuff into the halo car has to have some economy of scales so the technology can be applicable to the mass production cars. The only exceptions to the rule essentially only sell halo cars.
Not necessarily. A halo car is a showcase for the brand.
A Ford GT or Mustang GT350R is supposed to make people think "Ford is awesome" so even if they're shopping for an SUV they'll think an Explorer is part of that awesomeness. That's why a Porsche or Lamborghini SUV appeals.
I don't know if it would be a halo car, but I'd like the ND Miata made into an actual coupe with a non-turbo rotary. It's great at 180hp but imagine 9000rpm and 240hp.
Not necessarily. A halo car is a showcase for the brand.
A Ford GT or Mustang GT350R is supposed to make people think "Ford is awesome" so even if they're shopping for an SUV they'll think an Explorer is part of that awesomeness. That's why a Porsche or Lamborghini SUV appeals.
I don't know if it would be a halo car, but I'd like the ND Miata made into an actual coupe with a non-turbo rotary. It's great at 180hp but imagine 9000rpm and 240hp.
And the Arc Wire Transfer cylinder bore used in the Ford GT and GT350 are now being used in the Mustang GT. The technology is trickling down.
Ford is also pushing pretty hard on the Ecoboost engines. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the tech in the current 3.5T in Ford GT end up in the 3.6T in F150, which is now considered to be a higher engine option than the 5.0 Coyote.
And remember, lower economy of scale hurts the product, too. R&D teams don't get as much money to properly develop the product. GT350 Voodoo engine isn't exactly the most reliable engine in its class.
I don't think there's any need to reinvent the wheel here. All I'm talking about is reclaiming some of the character I'd associate with their roots. Light, simple and very analog is basically it. Bring the Cosmo back in a new way, who knows? Offer it as a 'cup' car for all I care but nothing like the rip-off $70k spec miata if possible. Farthest thing from that.
Imo there just isn't much real, tangible, meaningful enthusiasm that's relevant to Mazda anymore. For example, there were many very fine Lotus' available to me and I could've called it a day rather than go through all the effort to 'build' my Rx8 with zero debt involved in either scenario. I'm happy with my decision but positive I'm in a very small pot of people who're willing to do so. Vehicles of this caliber (Lotus) are generally unobtainable unless you have some sort of 'means' to do so and will be considered merely a toy. I think we can both agree that in general, those with means will not be considering purchasing a Mazda as a premium brand or even as a performance for that matter. You'll have to actually have a 'sports' car or cars to sell if you want to be seen as a motorsports brand. Nothing about it is anymore besides the marketing riding on everyone's past hopes and dreams.
I don't think there's any need to reinvent the wheel here. All I'm talking about is reclaiming some of the character I'd associate with their roots. Light, simple and very analog is basically it. Bring the Cosmo back in a new way, who knows? Offer it as a 'cup' car for all I care but nothing like the rip-off $70k spec miata if possible. Farthest thing from that.
Imo there just isn't much real, tangible, meaningful enthusiasm that's relevant to Mazda anymore. For example, there were many very fine Lotus' available to me and I could've called it a day rather than go through all the effort to 'build' my Rx8 with zero debt involved in either scenario. I'm happy with my decision but positive I'm in a very small pot of people who're willing to do so. Vehicles of this caliber (Lotus) are generally unobtainable unless you have some sort of 'means' to do so and will be considered merely a toy. I think we can both agree that in general, those with means will not be considering purchasing a Mazda as a premium brand or even as a performance for that matter. You'll have to actually have a 'sports' car or cars to sell if you want to be seen as a motorsports brand. Nothing about it is anymore besides the marketing riding on everyone's past hopes and dreams.
Welp, Lotus has struggled to keep themself alive for the longest time. They are owned by Geely now, though, so at least they are fine for the moment financially.
And even Lotus has economies of scale. Evora uses the same engine you find in a Camry V6 and Sienna, while Elise uses the same engine as a Corolla. Tuned differently and with superchargers, of course, but it's the same engines.
IMO it's fine if Mazda wants to transform into a luxury brand but they don't seem to even have a direction now. Nothing wrong with making a halo car that's a GT, or at least close to a GT in its base form, like a Corvette.
Realistically, a stretched Miata with a somewhat special engine is the most likely thing I see from Mazda, and IMO it can be done well. Otherwise, pull a Toyota and team up with someone to make a halo car.
Not necessarily. A halo car is a showcase for the brand.
A Ford GT or Mustang GT350R is supposed to make people think "Ford is awesome" so even if they're shopping for an SUV they'll think an Explorer is part of that awesomeness. That's why a Porsche or Lamborghini SUV appeals.
I don't know if it would be a halo car, but I'd like the ND Miata made into an actual coupe with a non-turbo rotary. It's great at 180hp but imagine 9000rpm and 240hp.
imagine it also with failed engines and transmissions along with every cheap, broke *ss customer trying to beat you down to the last nitpicking 2 cents worth of warranty claims ...
Team- I think you nailed it right on the head. Ha.
Unknown- I've been out of the automotive industry for a long time and I've never been a super fan of Lotus or Porsche. They are basically the archetypes for what I consider a 'sporting' vehicle could / should be. I looked at an Evora as well, very nice vehicle. Totally aware it's a Toyota engine.
Briggs is crazy small, I figure if they can turn a profit on something as niche as this then why can't Mazda. Especially when they have plant in Hiro. When I get a real garage, I hope to acquire / commission a BAC. Already ran it by the wife. But I'm still hoping Mazda comes out with something which inspires rather than degrades.
I really no do care for this channel or the 'journalists' but I included it if you're unfamiliar. These guys are super immature, it's a major turnoff-off.
Ford still owns 1/3rd if I'm not mistaken. Racing is a 'pay to play' sport and the fact that they can't afford to operate a functional team is concerning.
The silver lining here is that nothing every really goes away. People are still into rat-rods, swing music, etc. Mazda re-invents itself and there will still be plenty of old school rotary enthusiasm around, just like how Lotus still has enthusiasm. Actually will allow the opportunity for independent shops to separate their work ethic, philosophy, reputation, etc into whatever the future may hold.
Team- I think you nailed it right on the head. Ha.
Unknown- I've been out of the automotive industry for a long time and I've never been a super fan of Lotus or Porsche. They are basically the archetypes for what I consider a 'sporting' vehicle could / should be. I looked at an Evora as well, very nice vehicle. Totally aware it's a Toyota engine.
Briggs is crazy small, I figure if they can turn a profit on something as niche as this then why can't Mazda. Especially when they have plant in Hiro. When I get a real garage, I hope to acquire / commission a BAC. Already ran it by the wife. But I'm still hoping Mazda comes out with something which inspires rather than degrades.
I really no do care for this channel or the 'journalists' but I included it if you're unfamiliar. These guys are super immature, it's a major turnoff-off.
They only make one product that costs a crap ton of money for what you get. Not comparable to Mazda in any sense. Not bashing the car, but that thing definitely doesn't cost $250k to build. I would like to see the profit margin on it. It probably more than makes up for the low sales number. Again, it's either selling a lot of things with a low profit or sell a few things with a high profit.
Also, Throttle House is pretty cool IMO. And let's see you being mature around a car like that, or are you mistaking humour with immaturity?
Originally Posted by Federighi
No response? Think I finally buried this dead body. Today, Mazda is not synonymous with 'sports' in any way and I'll use one of my wife's moves (to state the obvious) because all I hear are excuses.
Ford still owns 1/3rd if I'm not mistaken. Racing is a 'pay to play' sport and the fact that they can't afford to operate a functional team is wtf. Just leave if you can't pony up the bucks. Drawing from personal experience, my childhood involved my father telling us we couldn't afford to get Xmas trees or gifts and standing in line at foods banks. I found out later this was to fuel both my parents freebase cocaine addiction. Anyways, Mazda wound't be considered 'broke' or a 'cheap brand' if their demographic weren't frugal af about everything.
The silver lining is that nothing every goes away. People are still into rat-rods, swing music, etc. Mazda tanks and there will still be plenty of rotary enthusiasm around, just like how Lotus still has enthusiasts/enthusiasm. Actually will allow the opportunity for independent shops to separate their work ethic, philosophy, reputation, etc into whatever the future may hold.
And I hope more than anything that the monstrosity of whatever they're going to market it as never sees the light of day (this hypothetical flagship vehicle you've all gathered around).
AFAIK Fix Or Repair Daily doesn't own anything nowadays. That time is long gone. Mazda has a partnership with Toyota, that seems to be it.
Again, nothing wrong with not being sporty, things can turn in a different direction, you just have to be sure about that direction. Making a luxury car that's stunning is pretty impressive as well. Again, LC500 is by no means a sports car, but it has its appeal.
Also, I am not saying Mazda is cheap as a brand. Just saying that they aren't a big player like GM, VW, or Toyota and have that kind of money to play a risky move. Even these big guys tread pretty carefully nowadays.
Mostly just another rant about the current state of Mazda and how there's no foreseeable plan for an interesting or sustainable future. And most unfortunately, it seems I've stumbled across a pocket of 'rotary enthusiasts' who (at least to me) sounds like they're more than happy to entertain a piston powered RX model. Super lame. Oh and $250k Canadian = approx $180^k usd. Worth it imo.
Around 2005 when I 'grew up' after finishing my '94 CW FD3S RZ replica build with all the bells and whistles painstakingly imported just like my se3p, I realized many things but most importantly that I hadn't been impressed with cars for a long time and lost my own enthusiasm because the 'scene' was so un-pure and immature. This isn't news and it's actually still going on with the same people (except they're 20 years older still with the same mentally). Which is why I purged nearly all my car possessions and went back to school to figure out what really matters (and it isn't anything that's material).
I'm technically the curator many instruments but most specifically of a 200 year old historic Viennese instrument which I've owned in full for many years. Vienna is incredibly special historically for many reasons and anything created there is very sought after. I get to be apart of a rich history which has held meaning for hundreds of years and also offers me the opportunity to pass on the privilege in time to another. I'd suggest extending that level of respect to Hiroshima when talking about rotary or I'd say it's best to btfo.
So other than the value which we impose upon them, cars are merely metal objects which offer nothing more than transportation or amusement. You can go to the store in a VW bug or a Ferrari, entirely up to you. As I've said many times, I'll be the first to push my petrol powered vehicles into the trash compactor when the time comes.
Mostly just another rant about the current state of Mazda and how there's no foreseeable plan for an interesting or sustainable future. And most unfortunately, it seems I've stumbled across a pocket of 'rotary enthusiasts' who (at least to me) sounds like they're more than happy to entertain a piston powered RX model. Super lame. Oh and $250k Canadian = approx $180^k usd. Worth it imo.
Around 2005 when I 'grew up' after finishing my '94 CW FD3S RZ replica build with all the bells and whistles painstakingly imported just like my se3p, I realized many things but most importantly that I hadn't been impressed with cars for a long time and lost my own enthusiasm because the 'scene' was so un-pure and immature. This isn't news and it's actually still going on with the same people (except they're 20 years older still with the same mentally). Which is why I purged nearly all my car possessions and went back to school to figure out what really matters (and it isn't anything that's material).
I'm technically the curator many instruments but most specifically of a 200 year old historic Viennese instrument which I've owned in full for many years. Vienna is incredibly special historically for many reasons and anything created there is very sought after. I get to be apart of a rich history which has held meaning for hundreds of years and also offers me the opportunity to pass on the privilege in time to another. I'd suggest extending that level of respect to Hiroshima when talking about rotary or I'd say it's best to btfo.
So other than the value which we impose upon them, cars are merely metal objects which offer nothing more than transportation or amusement. You can go to the store in a VW bug or a Ferrari, entirely up to you. As I've said many times, I'll be the first to push my petrol powered vehicles into the trash compactor when the time comes.
Car businesses are there to make money.
I would love to see another rotary, sure, but the cold hard truth is that it's very unlikely to happen. The competition is way too fierce nowadays with piston engines seeing drastic improvements. Laugh at GM Small Blocks for being truck engines and not having OHC all you want, but there is a reason people swap those all the time. Not that I like seeing rotary cars being swapped with an LS engine, but just stating a fact. And that's just one family of the many good piston engines out there.
And again, the economy of scales is the name of the game nowadays. Unless Mazda figures out a way to fit rotaries into their volume vehicles, forget about it being used in a sports car. As much as many (including me) are unhappy with the Zupr4, the decision of using BMW engines makes a lot of sense from a business point of view. Even if we somehow miraculously get a rotary sports car now, expect it to be full of problems due to the peanuts of an R&D budget.
Car companies also don't listen to people's opinions of cars on the Internet, and for good reasons. Just screaming "bUiLd Rx9" here doesn't get anyone anywhere. That's why I also try to restrain myself when complaining about cars I can't afford anyway.
Art and engineering are very different things. Engineering is just about achieving a specific set of goals and compromises in the most efficient manner. Rotary was picked due to some of the favourable characteristics it had at the time and that's why Mazda worked hard on it. It's very admirable but it's not exactly artistic to me.
This thread started with "Just a huge hypothetical here but say if Mazda were actually able to produce a new product "
And somehow it ended up in "yeah but business is hard and halos aren't profitable and meow meow economy". Party poopers :P
Also I'm not sure why their flagship product has to be rotary or an RX. The engine is dead. It was old news 10 years ago and nothing has happened since to change that. Without a breakthrough there is no future in it and consequently, nothing fresh or interesting. The best halo I can think of is what I said above: SkyactiveX high-comp compression ignition power monster that handles like a Miata and sips fuel like one unless it's at high load. That not only makes a statement, but also produces innovation that can trickle down to their future cars, not their 30 years ago cars.
This thread started with "Just a huge hypothetical here but say if Mazda were actually able to produce a new product "
And somehow it ended up in "yeah but business is hard and halos aren't profitable and meow meow economy". Party poopers :P
Also I'm not sure why their flagship product has to be rotary or an RX. The engine is dead. It was old news 10 years ago and nothing has happened since to change that. Without a breakthrough there is no future in it and consequently, nothing fresh or interesting. The best halo I can think of is what I said above: SkyactiveX high-comp compression ignition power monster that handles like a Miata and sips fuel like one unless it's at high load. That not only makes a statement, but also produces innovation that can trickle down to their future cars, not their 30 years ago cars.
You want fun? Alright, Mazda should pick up that Amati V12 plan they had.
And this is actually not a bad idea at all. The Corvette has been touting fuel economy as a selling point for a good while. The C7 was capable of 455 BHP while it can achieve 30 MPG on the highway.
Alternatively, a rotary hybrid could be it, too, ala BMW i8.
11-05-2020, 01:17 PM
