Mazda CEO officially rules out RX rebirth- again
11-19-2013, 02:42 PM
#76
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Yeah IIRC it ran an identical lap time to a an E46 M3 or something.
Edit: Just checked, it ran a 8:22, faster than an NSX by quite a bit back in 1997................... Crazy.
Edit: Just checked, it ran a 8:22, faster than an NSX by quite a bit back in 1997................... Crazy.
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 11-19-2013 at 02:45 PM.
11-19-2013, 03:55 PM
#83
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Thread Starter
Don't get too hung up on the "model" production numbers, considering the statement is referring to the engine. If you totalled up how many MZR 2.0L engines vs MZR 2.3L engines vs SA-G 2.0L engines, etc... then you are comparing apples to apples. Yes, most rotaries only have 1 model that they are in, but I expect that to change if it comes back. I would expect it in more than 1 model, possibly even as alternate engines in existing models (the 6, the 3, and the MX-5 are all viable in theory)
You do know the history of Mazda do you?, obviously not, they stopped making more than one model Rotary over 30 years ago.....this will never happen.
I guess we can say anything and be a dreamer..
Reality is it is not going to happen, there just is not a market there, is that so difficult to understand.
BTW the new CEO is exactly that, new and young, I expect him to be in his position for at least 10 years (taking on an average of past Mazda CEO's).
This is his first statement on the RE, and it certainly it is not good.
Fuel here (yesterday) when I filled my MX-5 was $1.69 a litre, that is about $7.50 a US gallon, more in Europe, and you think a RE of any current configuration is going to sell @ 25 MPG (best) ?
MMC are now almost 100% independent, the last time they almost went broke they had multiple RE models for sale (I was in Mazda Dealership), you could not give them away with the fuel crisis.
This time now Mazda are just not going to risk losing more money again on any RE, sadly..they made nothing on the RX-8.
Also remember the RENESIS was born by Mazda Japan engineers fiddling in their own time, not on the companies.
I would be first in line 'if' a new RE came to be (provided it was main power plant).
As I said there is nothing positive to suggest there ever will be...the opposite is the fact.
11-19-2013, 04:00 PM
#84
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Thread Starter
It is the CEO who puts his neck on the line, not a past CEO now Chairman Yamanouchi...it is the CEO's call.
11-19-2013, 04:15 PM
#86
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Ash, I refuse to believe that there are limitations on what human ingenuity, passion, and drive to be different will acomplish.
I don't place bets on any specific data point. I don't base my belief on any collection of challenges or market statistics or historical precedence. I base it on human nature. If there is an engine, someone is out there trying to make it faster, more efficient. This is still true of steam engines after all. In order to take an action, people need motive and opportunity. The motive exists, the opportunity isn't right now, but with a lab still researching the rotary and a company on the rebound, the opportunity very well might be around the corner.
I know all about everything stacked against a rotary return, but all it takes is one crazy guy with a dream.
I don't place bets on any specific data point. I don't base my belief on any collection of challenges or market statistics or historical precedence. I base it on human nature. If there is an engine, someone is out there trying to make it faster, more efficient. This is still true of steam engines after all. In order to take an action, people need motive and opportunity. The motive exists, the opportunity isn't right now, but with a lab still researching the rotary and a company on the rebound, the opportunity very well might be around the corner.
I know all about everything stacked against a rotary return, but all it takes is one crazy guy with a dream.
Last edited by RIWWP; 11-19-2013 at 04:24 PM.
11-19-2013, 05:11 PM
#91
Administrator
16x being shelved and a sky -r is just marketing . the sky-r is just a new name for the 16x. it's a longer stroke rotary with thinner than renny rotors 3 plugs and direct injection
11-19-2013, 05:16 PM
#93
I love rotary engines. They taught me a lot. I also love history, and it has also taught me a lot.
The rotary engine destroyed NSU financially. That's partly why VW was able to buy it up in the 60s and make it a part of what became the modern incarnation of Audi. Audi kept the Ro80 rotary sedan into production for a few years, and kept researching a new rotary. They even had Audi 100 prototypes running around in the late 70s with a new generation rotary closer in design to what Mazda was running at the time.
The rotary engine also almost destroyed Mazda. The mass market rotaries were fine until fuel economy became an issue. Then those became a disaster. Every low volume niche product they made with them cost the company a gazillion dollars (3 rotor Cosmo, 3rd gen Rx-7). Only the high volume stuff did ok/good financially (1st gen Rx-7), and they still dropped the ball on Rx-8 reliability issues.
Let this be a lesson to all those peddling "revolutionary" ideas for combustion engines. NSU licensed the rotary to about a dozen major OEMs including Toyota and GM. None of them could figure out the rotary engine for the long term. Now Mazda has called it quits because they don't want history to repeat itself, and with the state of the global economy I can't say I blame them. The longer it stays out of production, the more likely it will never come back because of the risks involved.
I'll have to pour one out for the Wankel though. It had a good run.
The rotary engine destroyed NSU financially. That's partly why VW was able to buy it up in the 60s and make it a part of what became the modern incarnation of Audi. Audi kept the Ro80 rotary sedan into production for a few years, and kept researching a new rotary. They even had Audi 100 prototypes running around in the late 70s with a new generation rotary closer in design to what Mazda was running at the time.
The rotary engine also almost destroyed Mazda. The mass market rotaries were fine until fuel economy became an issue. Then those became a disaster. Every low volume niche product they made with them cost the company a gazillion dollars (3 rotor Cosmo, 3rd gen Rx-7). Only the high volume stuff did ok/good financially (1st gen Rx-7), and they still dropped the ball on Rx-8 reliability issues.
Let this be a lesson to all those peddling "revolutionary" ideas for combustion engines. NSU licensed the rotary to about a dozen major OEMs including Toyota and GM. None of them could figure out the rotary engine for the long term. Now Mazda has called it quits because they don't want history to repeat itself, and with the state of the global economy I can't say I blame them. The longer it stays out of production, the more likely it will never come back because of the risks involved.
I'll have to pour one out for the Wankel though. It had a good run.
11-19-2013, 05:26 PM
#95
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arghx7, I don't think you actually read the article...
Specifically the point where he mentions that they are still researching and developing the rotary. Hardly "calling it quits".
Specifically the point where he mentions that they are still researching and developing the rotary. Hardly "calling it quits".
11-19-2013, 05:40 PM
#97
So yeah, it's still being researched. That means 2 guys are doing simulations and 3 guys have some mule engine in an engine dyno test cell on a shoestring budget.
11-19-2013, 05:46 PM
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No, it doesn't mean that. I agree about the risk of lengthy out of production periods, but it's not the death toll that people seem to think it is. They have a specific goal for the engine still, and while that goal isn't one that we want specifically, it still gives a direction, a purpose, and a budget.
11-19-2013, 06:10 PM
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I've been reading the news across multiple forums with a heavy heart, but I can't say I'm at all surprised. By modern standards, the rotary as we know it is a forgone novelty that simply failed to deliver on its space-age promises. Simply, it was a product of its time - a time in which there was still a future to be amazed by, and it all seemed to be right around the corner. Well, we're living in that future now, and the rotary just couldn't make the cut.
I won't speculate on what could have happened with more capital or development, because it's been speculated to death, but the rotary is essentially Sega to the piston engine's Nintendo. Betamax to its VHS. HD-DVD to their Blu-Ray. Merits notwithstanding, the rotary in its present form has reached its inevitable end-life conclusion. Think about it...it's been nearly 50 years and the rotary just couldn't make a good enough case for itself to earn widespread acceptance. To reiterate: half a goddamned century.
I wish it could have turned out differently. For the first time, I've been seriously thinking about replacing my 8 with a truck. As much as I hate that, I simply don't have room for a third vehicle and a nice truck would be more beneficial in my current situation. This has made my decision indescribably more difficult.
I won't speculate on what could have happened with more capital or development, because it's been speculated to death, but the rotary is essentially Sega to the piston engine's Nintendo. Betamax to its VHS. HD-DVD to their Blu-Ray. Merits notwithstanding, the rotary in its present form has reached its inevitable end-life conclusion. Think about it...it's been nearly 50 years and the rotary just couldn't make a good enough case for itself to earn widespread acceptance. To reiterate: half a goddamned century.
I wish it could have turned out differently. For the first time, I've been seriously thinking about replacing my 8 with a truck. As much as I hate that, I simply don't have room for a third vehicle and a nice truck would be more beneficial in my current situation. This has made my decision indescribably more difficult.
Last edited by Icky Mettle; 11-19-2013 at 06:27 PM.
11-19-2013, 06:10 PM
#100
No, it doesn't mean that. I agree about the risk of lengthy out of production periods, but it's not the death toll that people seem to think it is. They have a specific goal for the engine still, and while that goal isn't one that we want specifically, it still gives a direction, a purpose, and a budget.
Eventually the guys who are working on it will shift to other projects, leave Mazda for another company, or retire. A few more people might come on here and there, but when it's a distant enough memory Mazda will quietly pull the plug. That's how it happened at Audi.
The big boss doesn't want to be the guy who put the company in the red to satisfy a few diehards in the company and some people on the internet who can't wait to buy a rotary sports car when it's a depreciated used car. If he screws up, people lose their livelihoods. Mazda isn't "too big to fail," and the rotary engine nearly killed the company back in the 1970s. Can you really blame him? Why even do a rotary for a hybrid when you can just do a small turbo 3 cylinder?
I want the rotary to come back, but we have to face up to reality here.
