People just like to bitch. Something could be perfect and they still bitch.

Lets not forget the fact that if the 16x was release now as originally shown, it's an all aluminum engine, so it's close to 150lbs dressed (all aluminum 13b short block weights 109lbs), no more than 200lbs. So this is half the weight of your proposed V6... at least. Also, if all you're talking about is 300HP, Yamamoto of Mazda confirmed that the 16x in it's current NA form (2007) is capable of making 300HP... I don't see where your V6 scenario is valid or worthwhile.

Hmm Im not sure where you got the idea that I'm complaining about a car that doesnt exist yet, I was just saying that a rotary engine isnt an essential part of a Mazda sports car. I have loyalty to the brand, the BRZ that my wife drives is my first non-Mazda out of a history of 9 cars between us, hell in a way it was our mutual love for the Miata that brought us together. That fanaticism is what drives me to say to Mazda why not do this? If they have something in the works thats great, thats what im hoping for, and if its rotary powered thats just gravy, but by no means is it essential. 7 of my 8 Mazda's were piston powered. Rotary is cool and unique and i think its great, i dont have a problem justifying it to myself or others. But if Mazda has a problem justifying it to their financial overlords or government regulators or whatever, then I'd understand them letting it go, there are plenty of suitable engine configurations to choose from, even if they dont have as much character.




that said...truth be told I have been looking long and hard at the Lotus Evora o_O

Well, you aren't commenting on a car that exists today, so it would have to be a future car. And complaints that a future sports car might have a rotary are pretty prevalent in your posts, even if you didn't intent to come across that way.


Correct, for the MX-5 it isn't. Every other production Mazda sports car has been a rotary though, so from a culture perspective, yeah, the rotary is actually an essential part of a Mazda sports car. Doing anything else would be a significant break of tradition.

I'm not complaining that it might be a rotary at all, jeez. I'm saying it's ok if it isnt.

I'd submit that an more overarching tradition for mazda is that they just do things a little differently: the millenia was a miller cycle supercharged 2.3 V6 i mean WTF?! The 626 had an optional pressure wave supercharged diesel engine in it i mean WTF?!

These were cool and unique engines that helped define those cars place in the annals of automotive history. They had their time and faded away and were bespoke to one chassis.

Really what i liked about mazda was theio willingness to try different stuff and take those risks instead of just talking about it. and in a way every rotary owner out there carries on that same spirit. So yeah Id like it to be rotary powered, but im not going to have an absolute fit if they cant pull it off, I'm sure theyll find some way to make it unique.

...and direction shift...


All your prior posts were first about trying to put a Ford V6 that Mazda is dropping into a chassis that doesn't have a production line any more, then ignoring Mazda's new chassis and sports car work and posting about how we "seem fine that Mazda is getting out of the sports car business" despite the fact that they aren't, and we see that.

So you changed your stance yet again, and I'll just back out for now.

I think it's pretty clear to anyone with better than a room temperature IQ that context is pretty important when youre looking at these quotes.

All along my stance did not change, it was a general acceptance that if rotary development was stopping and it was not going to be used in the future (regardless of wether thats what i would like) then we need to look at realistic alternatives and not stubbornly hang on to pining for the rotary.

I changed nothing about my feelings on the matter at all. I merely was suggesting that we could implement them as alternatives as a way of keeping Mazda in the fight. I didnt know they were developing a new top tier sports car as i havent seen any hard press on the matter, only the suggestion that the ND platform could be expanded to fill that role.

I would refrain from the hostility if you want to keep this discussion active.

[moderator hat]
Be very careful about choosing to sling around veiled personally comments that can be taken as insults. You never know exactly who you are talking to on the internet. I'm not offended, but this is the second time in this thread that you have done so. ("better than a room temperature IQ", "Trust me I'm almost certain I'm a better driver than you") I suggest you choose otherwise in the future.
[/moderator hat]



Before making such suggestions, perhaps you should investigate what Mazda is actually doing (develping a scalable RWD chassis, still developing a rotary engine) rather than suggesting possibilites that can not happen due to disassembled production lines and disolved business relationships. A reader that is aware of that information doesn't see the same context that you had, and the posts become confusing or misleading, despite your intentions to the contrary.

understood, sorry I'm frustrated that so many of my perfectly valid points were taken completely out of context by various people along the way who just skimmed what i took the time to try to spell out very clearly. (Its also worth noting that your posting snippets of it only exacerbated that by removing the context i provided).

I dint know about the scalable ND chassis and STILL havent seen any hard press on it, but of course thats a better solution than resurrecting an old production line, which i wouldve suggested had i known about it.

And my early comments were under the assumption that the statement Regarding 100,000 units from the CEO essentially declared the rotary dead until further notice. It seems to me that the function of the forum is a place to share our knowledge and ideas for open discussion. If a member doesnt know something, maybe the best approach is to educate them about it and not insult their ideas(edit: im not referring to you here), or perhaps inquire about what it is theyre assuming if they suggest something you know to be preposterous based on information you have that they do not.

We've had a number of reasonable and intelligent conversations you and I, RIWWP. I've learned alot of things from you in my time on this forum and early on in my postings found myself thinking "I sure hope RIWWP chimes in here soon, i think of all people he would understand what im driving at" I appreciate that youve brought to my attention that development is progressing both for the engine and the chassis and thats great news, it is the first ive heard of it though and id love to corraborate multiple sources regarding that. And i think that of all people you have the ability to go back and look at everything i wrote, knowing what i didnt know then and see that im just a person who doesnt want to see mazda quit that market segment, theyre too good for that.

In fairness, I was taking your recommended approach, and in fairness, not everyone replying to you was.

The main proof that development continues is that about 24hrs after the article that started this thread, Mazda engineers unveiled a brand new 330cc rotary at a major auto show. Is it a primary powerplant? No. Is it proof that work on the rotary continues? Yes.

Additionally, there are several other key factors and snippets that Mazda has released over the years. Most are buried in other rumor threads so it may take some time to dig them out, and msot aren't even full articles. In fact, most full articles are 95% garbage with 5% truth.

Even then, much of what I base my opinion on (and yes, it is an opinion), is the combined result of those pieces of information dug out from all the fluff and mongering. Some of these points aren't even rotary specific, but are things that help to directly solve many of the emissions and/or performance challenges of the rotary.

For example...

• there was an article when the 16X was known to be in progress that had a quote that the 16X met 2 of the 3 goals (power, emissions, economy, and I forget which 2) and wasn't far behind on the 3rd.
• 16X details and patents indicate several advancements that directly solve 13B emissions and torque complaints (longer stroke, narrower rotors), things that would carry over to any future iteration of the engine
• then was an article years ago that had a Mazda quote that the 16X project was shelved.
• Mazda has shown evidence of work on laser ignition, which is ideally suited to the rotary
• Mazda was awarded a global trophy for a new catalytic converter technology
• Mazda figured out how to dramatically increase engine compression safely
• Then an article where a Mazda official is quoted mentioning the "Sky-R" in passing
• Mazda quotes discussing improved rotary sealing techniques
• Mazda mentions a total vehicle lineup count by 2017 that leaves one model unknown
• Mazda shows a brand new rotary design at an auto show for a range extender
• Mazda develops the ND chassis far lighter, and scalable like all their other SkyActive underpinings.

etc...

That is a brief coverage of the points that I have seen that makes me believe that Mazda has not given up on the engine.

On the flip side, I don't believe one is imminently over the horizon, because

• Mazda is busy updating all their other models, one of which requires development of the chassis that they would most likely use for any future rotary
• Mazda has had a huge financial slump until recently, which would hurt the development of side projects like the rotary tremendously
• Tightening emissions regulations globally is the only true barrier to releasing the car (price, power, and economy are reasons not to buy it, but not barriers to make it or sell it), and even if they can make it pass right now, they have to ensure it will pass for the next 8-10 years, if not longer, which is a really tall order.
• There is still no hint at auto shows of anything waiting in the wings

Aside from all of that, there is a key problem for another sports car in general in that the most powerful production consumer engine Mazda currently makes for the US is 185hp. I think the EU/JP deisel surpasses it by a bit (210?). The MX-5 is not likely to get the 185hp 2.5L gas engine, but it might, and at worse it will probably only be around 20hp less (the power of the current MX-5, which was mentioned previously by Mazda). Another sports car would have to be noticeably different in the lineup, and while it's easy to go bigger, heavier, and with a weaker engine, that would obviously not be Mazda's idea of a sports car. Bigger is possible, but the engine would need to be more powerful to suit (even at the same power-to-weight, i'm not a power monger), and if the car doesn't gain in size then it would have to go way weaker to separate itself from the MX-5, which is also not very likely.

So to me, they are known to be working on an engine that can produce 250hp+ with a whole host of improvements, they now have a chassis that the engine would work on, and they have an empty slot in the intended lineup count that would be enough different from an MX-5. Once they wrap up with their current busy updates, I have faith that someone in Mazda is going to tell people to start putting it together.

There is an article in the current MT issue saying the MX5 for the US WILL get the 2.5L, everywhere else will have a choice. Of course we will see what actually happens when it happens. Just thought you would like to hear that. I think an MX5 with 185hp and weight close to the original would be a pretty fun car!

Yeah. My MX-5 is the weight of the current one (2,490lbs) with ~270 at the crank :) (and can get to ~270 at the wheels)

I'm still holding out for a 250-300hp rotary in the ND's chassis, at ~2,400-2,600lbs.

Thankfully Mazda does not agree with you. They do think it is essential and have said it many times.

If you cannot buy it then build it!

But if I can buy it, along with a warranty and all the advancements of modern technology, I'd rather do that :)

Thanks RIWWP that was very refreshing.

And yeah pdxhak i dont think it's essential but it is nice to have. Like red hair on a girl for example: Some people are really into it but its not a requirement, for others its a necessity, maybe even an obsession.

Anyway, in light of the new information (new to me anyway) I have a bit of restored confidence in the future of mazda's lineup. Every car they currently make is pretty damn good example of their respective segments and id like to see that spread to the ~$30k sports car segment again.

Yea, not just essential, their CEO said 'rotary is the spirit of Mazda, it differs mazda brand from other sports car brands, and we will not give up on rotary development'

Why don't they just put a big electric charger and boost to 400, make it high end like nissan with their GTR, then mazda would have something to compete euro brands

^ For lots of reasons.

Not the least of which Mazda already beats everything they compete against, and are making money hand over fist doing so.

Without releasing date of rx9, my life seemed empty than normal.

Yeah, it's unfortunately that you don't even have an RX-8 to drive for now...

In the 41 years I have owned and driven numerous Mazdas (including seven rotary cars) I have witnessed Mazda weather every storm, economically and technically. While in total numbers they have sold more piston-engined cars, it has always been the rotary that made Mazda, gave it its identity and was always its heart and soul. Mazda will successfully overcome the new emissions standards, issues with gas mileage and horsepower and weight and they will produce the next rotary car of our dreams, just like they always have, every generation. And I will line up and buy that one also. You gotta have a little faith here folks. Since 1973 Mazda has never let me down as they improved and perfected their "baby" the rotary engine.

We all know that there is a place for this car in the modern world, and we all know there will be folks ready to buy and enjoy it. Mazda knows this also and now that they are having their best financial year ever thanks in large to their great skyactic cars, Mazda has the resources to go along with their heart and deliver us the next great rotary sports car. Just be a little patient, Mazda will want to get this one correct, right out of the box. They know the world is watching and waiting.

All you naysayers just wait and you will be made to see the wisdom of the faith of us true believers, and we will all be the happier for it in the end.

Since we're thinking of warm and fuzzy dreams, can I have that future rotory powered car to have an all aluminum, tri-rotor engine, with the newest skyactiv technology in it? Because 3 rotors are better than 2.

And the base price for this super Mazda can start at $1500 below the price of a fully decked out Miata/MX-5/ND, whatever.

If we're dreaming, lets dream unobtanium.

Oh, and make it look like the Furai.

What's more unobtainable than unobtanium?
Whatever it is, I want that!

BC.

That rotary engine they showed was 330cc. 3 of those is still only 990cc. :lol:

Better make it 4, one to power each wheel of the car.