Mazda CEO officially rules out RX rebirth- again
 

Today is a sad day for the RE! :(

HIROSHIMA, Japan

-- Masa-michi Kogai, the new CEO of Mazda Motor Corp., has set what looks like an impossibly high bar for reintroducing the company's rotary engine.

Sales would have to total 100,000 a year for Mazda to resurrect the technology, he said. So Mazda isn't planning a rotary revival, he said.

"No plans now," Kogai said in an interview Friday. "It has to be a viable commercial proposition. If we are going to adopt it, it has to be a product that can generate at least sales of 100,000 units a year. We have to be able to achieve a profit."

Kogai, a no-nonsense production veteran with a knack for cost crunching, took office in June after overhauling the company's manufacturing.

Among his coups: transforming Mazda's erstwhile loss-making Japan operations into a lean export machine able to post profits with tough foreign exchange rates.

The rotary engine had been a Mazda bragging point ever since the company became the first to market the technology in 1968, in its Familia Rotary Coupe/Mazda R100.

But the company killed the powerplant last year when the last RX-8 sports car rolled off the line. The engine is also known as the Wankel after the German engineer who invented it.

A rebirth has been the subject of incessant speculation -- often fueled by Mazda itself. Last year, then-President Takashi Yamanouchi dangled the idea of putting a rotary in a hybrid vehicle to generate electricity that would charge the battery.

Nothing has come of that so far.

The engine's chief hurdle is technical -- meeting today's more stringent emissions regulations. It would also mean giving valuable production capacity to a unique small-batch model.

In 2011, the RX-8's last full-year of sales in the United States, Mazda sold only 759 of the cars in its biggest market. The RX-8's peak annual sales in the United States were 23,690 units in 2004, according to the Automotive News Data Center. The rotary-powered RX-7's U.S. sales peak was 56,203 units in 1986.

At today's lean Mazda, which just booked its first annual profit in five years, the new priorities are cost performance, economies of scale and uniform manufacturing. So it's hardly receptive to what some may see as vanity projects.

Still, Kogai said Mazda hasn't completely abandoned the notion. Engineers continue to research the technology, he said, in part because the rotary engine can run flexibly on a wide variety of fuels, including gasoline, hydrogen and even kerosene.

"We are the first and only manufacturer to commercialize the rotary engine. In that respect, we have some responsibility," Kogai said. "So please allow us to continue our research."


Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...#ixzz2kz2BOxAg
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RX-8 stocks (value) has just hit a new high (where I live)....

Is it cool for people to post the same thing in multiple places around the forum now?

It is relevant to the threads ( 'RX-8 Media News' and 'Any New Rotary?' ) and I considered this very important news to those who have subscribed in those particular threads so 'they' are aware of this news...I hope this is cool enough and OK for/with you?

Does this mean my 8 now has resale value, :suitdance.

i think that this means "END" for the Rotary Sportscar bloodline.

i think that this engine could be used in an hybrid and/or with alternative fuels.

not completely over yet, but it's over for Rx "franchise".....

Nope, it means it's a piece of junk with a limited time of engine parts availability.
Perhaps in 20 years from now it will be worth 20k with low miles and in pristine conditions.

While peculiar it was still a mass production car!

I think as long as there is a demand for parts, there will be a supply available.
If there is a market, someone will be there making money.
Murica!

my feelings are hurt and I just lost a bet

Posted From RX8Club.com Android App

I reckon car manufacturers have to warrant a part supply for at least 10 years after the cessation of a certain model.
Meh, who cares... i sold my rx8 :(

Well this sucks.
Not sure how I feel entirely about this ...

fukin treehuggers and their damn emissons

I kind of feel bad for some of the new members that already paid too much for their Series 1 RX8.
I'm with bse50 this is going to further ruin the resale value.

Which ... funny enough makes me want to go out and beat the dealers up on price and get another RX8!!!!

Resale value only matters if you want to sell it.
I hope to keep mine.:)

^^^ Agreed
And maybe buy a second!

One for each season perhaps?

Winter = white
Spring = Green
Summer = Blue
Fall = Red

I believe this is appropriate here!

I like it, but black for winter, want to stand out, not be winter camo.:)

So we're back to the Miata MX-5 being the only RWD Mazda car.

Where exactly does it say the rotary is "finished" ...

Reread the snippet, and you will see the following terms many times:

"No plans now,"
hasn't completely abandoned the notion
Engineers continue to research

As with anything, take with a grain of salt. This article means nothing. From a marketing perspective it benefits Mazda to release a statement like this to reduce the number of hold-off sales due to people waiting for "the next rotary". This article did nothing but tickle the fancy of those who now want to go out and buy an rx8 for the purposes of "oh man its the last rotary EVARRRR".

As with most of the stuff posted by the OP as a "i told you so", this article serves nothing more than a PR game.

case and point. Im sure the financial advisors didnt see this one coming at all ... no no


smh

I read there were encouraging words spoken by someone from MNAO at SevenStock, but I haven't heard what they were.

Its always easier (and wiser from a financial standpoint) for companies to say "no we can't" and then surprise the masses then it is for them to say "oh we surely will!" and to fail to provide the promise and tarnish their stock.

im with paimon. plus the emissions bit bolded by Ash in the article isnt quoted from Kogai-san. it's the reporter writing from past/current info on the reason there is no current production. so the hurdles going forward are profit /production numbers and state of 16X development(whereas 16x is standing in for whatever they internally call the current in-development engine)

Get a grip ...Sadly it is finished, what part of it don't you understand, do you honestly believe Mazda are still spending time and money on a project which is not going to happen.

I want to see a RE too, but it is not going to happen IF they cant make/sell 100,000 units a year, something Mazda has not done for a very long time.

Plus for North America they have to warrant any engine (EMISSIONS) for 8 years.
The are still bleeding $$ over the Rennny in USA.

It wont sell in Europe and it wont sell in quantities in USA ONLY, and they certainly wont make one only for USA.

"No Plans now" now means finished where I come from, so where are the numbers...

Grow up Paimon and get over it...

The new CEO doesn't seem as "fun friendly" as prior CEOs.

But as I've said before, until they actually disassemble the rotary engineering lab and fire / transfer the rotary engineers, they aren't actually done with it, and something could easily be found in the future. This doesn't mean that I think it's around the corner, but until they make a definitive statement of action by disolving their rotary research completely then the hope still exists that the nut-cases can figure out a way to make it happen. It doesn't surprise me that a CEO that started in accounting would insist on figures like that, and no, I don't think they are easily attainable. But 14:1 compression ratio on pump gas wasn't supposed to be possible either, and they did it.

I'll never bet against someone at Mazda doing something that the rest of the world thinks is impossible or even impractical. It's a losing bet.

And that is the difference between you ... the consumer, and them, the engineers. You view things as "can'ts" and "wonts" ... we (engineers) see things as challenges and voids for innovations.

It isn't about growing up and getting over it ... you need to get a better understanding of how the consumer market and corporate planning, and engineering work, and how the PR of today affects the investment future of tomorrow.

What is more shameful is that you feel that you are the authority in all things Mazda my friend. Accept the fact that smart business will surely keep a tight lip on innovation, its plans, and its progress

We engineers.....OK....laugh!...dont give up your day job, OK...;)

"Shameful"...OK...you should be the one saying that hey..

Sad Panda

Neither do I, but the 'positive' directions are not going the right way for me and many others...sadly.

hrmm ...

Mazda was able to reverse itself from the direction Ford was leading it. It was able to reverse the financial plunge it found itself in several years ago.

The current direction doesn't really tell me anything but "not right now". A reversal of direction is always possible. The current guy won't always be the CEO.

I recall reading the development of the Renny was taken on by a handfull of engineers after hours on their own time . . . so I am with Paimon on this (guess we engineers think alike). They will continue to develop it and if they start turning profits for several consecutive years as it looks like they will, there will be another rotary. Having a smaller R&D budget than the big Japanese 3 means they ahve less R&D budget, it is being used right now to finish the Skyactive line of vehicles, then the next Miata. Once these have all been released and if then continue their success, we will see some MazdaSpeed versions, then if those do well there will be budget enough to develop the next rotary. I think it all really depends on how the 3, 6, 5 and 7 do in sales. If they have several profitable qrtrs and a couple profitable years, we will see one sooner.

how many Mx5's do they sell a year?

Less than 10,000 a year in the U.S.

Damn... I guess the MX5 is gone too..... by this new CEO's standard anyway. lol

The FRS/BRZ combined are less than 30k units a year. It's something like 46k units since 2012 combined FRS and BRZ.

Not the most reliable source, but here it is.
Two or three years' worth of Mazda 3 production total more cars than the whole Mx-5 production run of more than 20 years.

Indeed, even if we take into account the Alfa partnership, using the reasoning in that article (100000 units annually) the MX-5 program should be dead also. And it isn't.

Halo cars are rarely profitable. Their commercial purpose is a form of "driving advertisement", and in that sense a new RX-7 may even generate 100000 sales per year... of other Mazda models. And that's perfectly fine for Mazda.

An Rx built on a lengthened Mx-5 chassis, also, cannot be that expensive. You reuse a lot of the engineering that went into the chassis and you can use a lot of components borrowed from other models (even if the finished product looks completely different). And that keeps costs down.

Add to this the good current financial situation for Mazda and, as others have said, the enthusiasm that many inside Mazda have for the rotary.

All of this to say that I'm optimist and think that, just like paimon.soror said, it's much easier (and safer) for them to say "no" now and then come with a surprise announcement to say "yes" than it is to say "yes" and then have to come back later to say "sorry, we can't".

Andrea.

this.

yes, that 100k a year is where this looses some credibility

Don't get too hung up on the "model" production numbers, considering the statement is referring to the engine. If you totalled up how many MZR 2.0L engines vs MZR 2.3L engines vs SA-G 2.0L engines, etc... then you are comparing apples to apples. Yes, most rotaries only have 1 model that they are in, but I expect that to change if it comes back. I would expect it in more than 1 model, possibly even as alternate engines in existing models (the 6, the 3, and the MX-5 are all viable in theory)

I would love to see the rebirth of the RX2 (323r), RX3 (626r), and RX4 (929r).
Would be a smart idea, and all they would need is different PPF or motor mount configuration to pull it off. Space wouldn't be the issue. Could make them limited production, or by order only, but make it an option either way.

I bet a rotary MX5 would sell pretty damn well.

This^^^ 100K a year for a rotary? Are you kidding me? Bring back the old CEO, this guy is way too focused on profit. This isn't Honda or Toyota... This is Zoom-Zoom

I just realized this: Masamichi Kogai (the original source of that article) is the CEO of Mazda, but Takashi Yamanouchi is the Chairman. And he is very enthusiast about the rotary, as far as I know.
It looks like we still have some friends up there :)

Andrea.

I don't think I've seen such a high sales number for justification of halo car production.

The benefits of a halo car production are the stuff of marketing black magic.

I simply read this to mean that Mazda cannot do this now. That to do this now, Mazda needs to sell 100k/year. But who knows? There might come a time when Mazda can afford a loss to strengthen its identity.

It always has to do with profitability of the company, Mazda has been posting losses quarter after quarter (as most car companies have been) until recently. Once the company has posted a few qrtrs of profitability and all the mainstream models are out making money, there will time and money for further RX research and development. If putting the next one on a stretched MX-5 platform is true, then the only thing they really have to work through is the power train development which is less costly than an entire car so that is even better for us. I am sure they do not want to deal with another rotary quality issue like with the early 8's and have to issue full engine replacement and further tarnish the rotary brand. Basically, when there is money to produce a money losing halo car, they will most likely produce one.

They don't even have to lose money on them. If they did a one off production run of say 1,000 NC MX-5s with a Renesis2 installed instead of the 2.0L, they could probably have sold them at ~$45k on special order only. That price wouldn't stick if it was a 5,000+ run, there wouldn't be enough people willing to pony up the money. But I bet there is 1,000 people out there that have the means and the motivation to buy such a car. Pretty much anyone that isn't rotary paranoid in the MX-5 community that would love another 60whp with a huge powerband, and anyone in the RX-8 community that loves the engine, wants to shed 600lbs, and doesn't needs the back seats/doors.

Just an example, and there are probably emissions and crash testing implications/costs that kept that from being viable.


Small run production cars are entirely viable to be profitable, at the right price point. Just the rotary has to be more main stream for people consider it a success, and mainstream means pricing it a lot lower, and that is the challenge.

Small run production cars aren't viable if you have to use a production line to make 1000 of them when the same line could produce 3\4\5000 cars in the same time. Including downtime of course (re-program the line, retooling etc).

My point wasn't "how best to maximize profits during production run", so that statement doesn't refute my point. At the right price point, they could still turn a profit on a limited production run. Including any retooling, down time, etc...

Sure but they have to maximize profits, not just make profits.
Using an old, abandoned platform (NC\FE) to produce 1000 more cars that nobody really wants isn't the way to go when you have to come out with new models soon. Such cars would have to pass their crash tests, emission tests and whatever other beaurocratic bullshit each and every govt. comes up with.

They should have done it for an anniversary, screw the cosworth built miata!

You have the wrong context here. No sports car, much less a halo car, will ever be made to "maximize profits". Ever.

You maximize profits by low cost efficient commuter cars that the masses buy which are then loaded with cheap features that can drive the price up to double base. Any sports car will either have a profit or not, but the inherent nature of them will never let the company maximize profits from a given assembly line if the model is left as a choice.

My point was simply that they could make such a car, and they could make it at a profit. The rest of the SkyActive line is what is working on those maximized profits. Eventually it will mean that there is enough play money left for our niche.

A halo car makes a brand more visible. Think GT86 or GT-R. Unnecessary cars that made hordes of people look into a brand.
A rotary miata would only be a wishful present from Mazda to its customers... and Mazda doesn't give a flying shit about its customers, at least in europe.

^agree and hopefully they will release a rotary sports car once they have money to play