FT86 Officla Europe Release
11-28-2011, 12:40 AM
#26
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I think the car is bad ***, 9k. If Toyota can succeed where Mazda (arguably) failed with the RX8 and have a massive success with this thing, it could help swing the needle back to "true sports car" popularity again - just as the Miata did.
Understand, I do not mean the RX8 is a failure from any standpoint other than, for whatever reasons, it did not "catch on" the way the car could have. Folks didn't understand or appreciate it. I think it could be different for Toyota and Subaru, if they play their cards right with this car.
The 2nd video posted by Spin9K gives me a lot to think about...
https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/toyota-gt-86-toyota-announce-vids-w-xlation-225906/
Everybody should watch that video if youre the least bit interested in the mind-set they had designing the car. It sounds like they had their **** together, and created a perfectly balanced approach to building an affordable sports car. I like that.
Understand, I do not mean the RX8 is a failure from any standpoint other than, for whatever reasons, it did not "catch on" the way the car could have. Folks didn't understand or appreciate it. I think it could be different for Toyota and Subaru, if they play their cards right with this car.
The 2nd video posted by Spin9K gives me a lot to think about...
https://www.rx8club.com/general-automotive-49/toyota-gt-86-toyota-announce-vids-w-xlation-225906/
Everybody should watch that video if youre the least bit interested in the mind-set they had designing the car. It sounds like they had their **** together, and created a perfectly balanced approach to building an affordable sports car. I like that.
Badass? Really? The idea of this car is sort of cool but in today's market it is just lame, it's a RWD Scion TC with 200HP and no torque. The exterior is too busy and the interior is horrible. They tried to match the Genesis and failed IMO, unless this thing just handles awesome compared to the Genesis. If the RX-8 had started with the Series II Renesis I think it would have done much better. But let's see how it is actually priced and how the aftermarket embraces this thing. But either way, an NA subie engine is nothing to get excited about.
11-28-2011, 01:52 AM
#27
I'm not sure how people are pointing out the power and torque as critiques on this forum. It's not like there's a huge difference between the power to weight ratio of the RX-8 and this car. From that quick review, it sounds like it will be a decent performance car and a great platform to build off of. I would not be surprised if it takes very little modification to make it faster than an 8. I think this is a good step in terms of continuing the sports car market. It's not just a "sporty" car like scions. It definitely followed in the footsteps of the 86 designation... lightweight and lower power. It might not be perfect, but it sounds like (performance wise) it didn't stray too far from its target.
The looks are what kill it for me. It's just too much. After seeing pictures of other colors, I would say my earlier comment is correct... it looks better. I still wouldn't say I love it. I like the dark blue the most because it tames it a bit.
The looks are what kill it for me. It's just too much. After seeing pictures of other colors, I would say my earlier comment is correct... it looks better. I still wouldn't say I love it. I like the dark blue the most because it tames it a bit.
11-28-2011, 02:22 AM
#28
I'm not sure how people are pointing out the power and torque as critiques on this forum. It's not like there's a huge difference between the power to weight ratio of the RX-8 and this car. From that quick review, it sounds like it will be a decent performance car and a great platform to build off of. I would not be surprised if it takes very little modification to make it faster than an 8. I think this is a good step in terms of continuing the sports car market. It's not just a "sporty" car like scions. It definitely followed in the footsteps of the 86 designation... lightweight and lower power. It might not be perfect, but it sounds like (performance wise) it didn't stray too far from its target.
The looks are what kill it for me. It's just too much. After seeing pictures of other colors, I would say my earlier comment is correct... it looks better. I still wouldn't say I love it. I like the dark blue the most because it tames it a bit.
The looks are what kill it for me. It's just too much. After seeing pictures of other colors, I would say my earlier comment is correct... it looks better. I still wouldn't say I love it. I like the dark blue the most because it tames it a bit.
Instead of bashing the lack of power, styling, etc. Learn to appreciate the fact that one of the biggest (econobox) manufacturers put time and finance into developing a cheap RWD sports coupe; a pretty light one at that. Like how the Miata paved the way for sports cars and raodsters back in 1989, this could rejuvenate the dying cheap sports car market.
I wouldn't think twice to choose the FT-86 over a 350z or Genesis. Toyota and Subaru have done enough R&D into this car to make it a great foundation for being a true sports car. With that said, I presume it's chassis is much more refined than a Genesis and Nissan's bastardized FM platform.
I wouldn't think twice to choose the FT-86 over a 350z or Genesis. Toyota and Subaru have done enough R&D into this car to make it a great foundation for being a true sports car. With that said, I presume it's chassis is much more refined than a Genesis and Nissan's bastardized FM platform.
Thank you. After all, its "roots" are based off of the AE86, which was never a powerful car.
11-28-2011, 02:57 AM
#29
I do think a little more power would have been nice... but it wouldn't take much. And that's just me wishing it was a bit more competitive with a higher market range than intended. Considering the expected price, it's looking pretty good and I can't say I'd really expect it to be much different.
That still doesn't reconcile my feelings towards the appearances.
That still doesn't reconcile my feelings towards the appearances.
11-28-2011, 07:20 AM
#31
Paul.
11-28-2011, 08:37 AM
#32
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Some decidely strange news from Tokyo. On the FT86 forum there is a guy that was given a all expense Tokyo trip to attend the grand announcement of the GT86. He was their guest and asked lots of questions.
The strange news that these cars will be "Hand Built" and "only 1000 per year" and "no turbo, ever" have peps scratching their heads everywhere. This was asked again with emphasis on the exact same answers. Still no price whatsoever, just a vague reference to someones salary percentage in Japan did not engender anything promising either.
If Scions are GT86s or not and Subaru FRS numbers, if different, are still a mystery. Let's hope at the very least Subaru corrects the clunky center stack Toyota came up with, and in some way improves upon the 7.2 sec 0-62 spec thru gearing or engine ECU tweeks.
And if the production numbers remain in the couple thousands, well, it will simply be a non-car for enthusiasts for all intents and purposes. It's just simply not all that....
The strange news that these cars will be "Hand Built" and "only 1000 per year" and "no turbo, ever" have peps scratching their heads everywhere. This was asked again with emphasis on the exact same answers. Still no price whatsoever, just a vague reference to someones salary percentage in Japan did not engender anything promising either.
If Scions are GT86s or not and Subaru FRS numbers, if different, are still a mystery. Let's hope at the very least Subaru corrects the clunky center stack Toyota came up with, and in some way improves upon the 7.2 sec 0-62 spec thru gearing or engine ECU tweeks.
And if the production numbers remain in the couple thousands, well, it will simply be a non-car for enthusiasts for all intents and purposes. It's just simply not all that....
11-28-2011, 09:01 AM
#33
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There are two main things that have me interested in the car
A) It was built with many of the same goals that Mazda targets, including refusing the power game, and focusing the enjoyment a small light car can be.
B) It's size and weight are REALLY appealing to me
I also think that Toyota/Subaru have hit something that will appeal to THIS economy. They can sell more fun sports cars in the $20k bracket than the $30k bracket. And from several interviews of the designers previously, they designed this car with aftermarket modifications in mind. So the people that can afford to make it faster/more powerful/etc... will have the flexibility to do so. But the manufacturer isn't forcing people to fork over the full cash up front.
"Buy now, mod later" concept. There is more aftermarket support for a flat 4 than a Renesis, you have to admit. Even if that flat 4 is a newer design.
I also like how Subaru and Toyota have agreements that each can take the design of the car in their own direction once it's launched. I expect it will only take 2-3 years before they are noticeably different cars. I'm betting Toyota goes styling, "hip" dealer options, driver comforts, where Subaru will go more power and tighter. (and probably more ugly)
Spin9k, you didn't note if those questions were asked of Toyota, or Subaru, or a combined "panel." If it's not both manufacturers, then they can only speak for themselves. I'm guessing since the reference is the GT86, that it was Toyota only, and it doesn't shock me that Toyota would refuse factory FI. I'd guess Subaru would have a different opinion, and will be free to exercise it in 2014.
A) It was built with many of the same goals that Mazda targets, including refusing the power game, and focusing the enjoyment a small light car can be.
B) It's size and weight are REALLY appealing to me
I also think that Toyota/Subaru have hit something that will appeal to THIS economy. They can sell more fun sports cars in the $20k bracket than the $30k bracket. And from several interviews of the designers previously, they designed this car with aftermarket modifications in mind. So the people that can afford to make it faster/more powerful/etc... will have the flexibility to do so. But the manufacturer isn't forcing people to fork over the full cash up front.
"Buy now, mod later" concept. There is more aftermarket support for a flat 4 than a Renesis, you have to admit. Even if that flat 4 is a newer design.
I also like how Subaru and Toyota have agreements that each can take the design of the car in their own direction once it's launched. I expect it will only take 2-3 years before they are noticeably different cars. I'm betting Toyota goes styling, "hip" dealer options, driver comforts, where Subaru will go more power and tighter. (and probably more ugly)
Spin9k, you didn't note if those questions were asked of Toyota, or Subaru, or a combined "panel." If it's not both manufacturers, then they can only speak for themselves. I'm guessing since the reference is the GT86, that it was Toyota only, and it doesn't shock me that Toyota would refuse factory FI. I'd guess Subaru would have a different opinion, and will be free to exercise it in 2014.
Last edited by RIWWP; 11-28-2011 at 09:04 AM.
11-28-2011, 09:05 AM
#34
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Ok, here is his latest post from Leeky this morning (Monday)...
Hi guys. Sorry i havent posted anything new up today - i've been to Toyota MegaWeb - Which was awesome! Walked there and back though which was a big mistake... but did get lots of good holiday photos of Tokyo.
Anyway back to the car.
On Wednesday i will be sure to take many many pictures both inside, outside, underneath and under the bonnet for you. So you have a good idea of what the car is like close up.
Also i wanted to say that my translator is awesome and she didnt pass details on to me. All the details were said to me by people working for Toyota.
Just to confirm, the Toyota 86/GT86 is coming in April for all markets. I cant comment on whether or not this includes Scion/Subaru as the exact words i was given were "Toyota will release the 86 worldwide in April". To which i asked "At the same time?" and he confirmed "Yes, at the same time".
He went on to say "The car will be a very very small production. 1000 units per year. Hand made". Again, he is constantly refering to the Toyota 86/GT86, so this may or may not include cars for Scion/Subaru.
Gearbox wise, he told me it shares the platform with the "LF-A" 100%, not IS-F. BUT i will ask him about this in detail at the show in Wednesday as well as confirm the information on how many units per year and the details on "hand made".
I can tell a lot of people arent happy with this information. But like i said, i will ask again and confirm this info. But for all those who dont believe it... well sorry... i dont care... Im on holiday and im not a reporter but i will try my best to get as much information (and brochures) from the motorshow. There are also 3 videos being uploaded now as we speak, so check my photobucket page! (slow hotel internet)
Anyway back to the car.
On Wednesday i will be sure to take many many pictures both inside, outside, underneath and under the bonnet for you. So you have a good idea of what the car is like close up.
Also i wanted to say that my translator is awesome and she didnt pass details on to me. All the details were said to me by people working for Toyota.
Just to confirm, the Toyota 86/GT86 is coming in April for all markets. I cant comment on whether or not this includes Scion/Subaru as the exact words i was given were "Toyota will release the 86 worldwide in April". To which i asked "At the same time?" and he confirmed "Yes, at the same time".
He went on to say "The car will be a very very small production. 1000 units per year. Hand made". Again, he is constantly refering to the Toyota 86/GT86, so this may or may not include cars for Scion/Subaru.
Gearbox wise, he told me it shares the platform with the "LF-A" 100%, not IS-F. BUT i will ask him about this in detail at the show in Wednesday as well as confirm the information on how many units per year and the details on "hand made".
I can tell a lot of people arent happy with this information. But like i said, i will ask again and confirm this info. But for all those who dont believe it... well sorry... i dont care... Im on holiday and im not a reporter but i will try my best to get as much information (and brochures) from the motorshow. There are also 3 videos being uploaded now as we speak, so check my photobucket page! (slow hotel internet)
11-28-2011, 09:09 AM
#35
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Yeah, I'd say that helps put it in perspective.
"Toyota isn't going to make many sports cars per year"
"Toyota isn't willing to add forced induction and the warranty issues or pricing bracket"
Makes complete sense to me. Toyota is probably keeping volume down to keep it from impacting their CAFE score (or possibly something else, but it's one reason I can think of)
I'd bet that Subaru won't be nearly as restrictive in volume or changes.
"Toyota isn't going to make many sports cars per year"
"Toyota isn't willing to add forced induction and the warranty issues or pricing bracket"
Makes complete sense to me. Toyota is probably keeping volume down to keep it from impacting their CAFE score (or possibly something else, but it's one reason I can think of)
I'd bet that Subaru won't be nearly as restrictive in volume or changes.
11-28-2011, 09:12 AM
#36
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I would describe myself more as "annoyed" at how the automotive media have treated the RX8 over the years and I maintain that the RX8 will only grow into its element over the next several years as people realize the fantastic chassis it has and how the performance of the car is much greater than portrayed in mainstream automotive journalism.
The FRS/86 will no doubt prove my theory since I see all the automotive publications thus far going gaga over the car when the overall performance (on paper) is less than or equal to the RX8. Perhaps in time the buds will be off the rose as I imagine early press about the RX8 followed a similar pattern since it was off the heels of the FD that everyone loves. I didn't fall into the RX8 until 2005 so I missed all that.
11-28-2011, 10:34 AM
#37
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Car and Driver had a preproduction Subie version and they claimed 0-60 in 6 seconds, 1/4 mile in 14.7-14.9 and 210 hp/170 lbs torque. That's not bad. I read somewhere else that it makes 220 hp. Probably would be quicker if you dropped the clutch. If they shot for 0-60 in under 6 seconds (which I think they should've) they didn't miss by far. For me, I'm more interested in it's midrange. Also, almost as important. Is it tunable. Did Subaru leave some power for the tuners...how much. If a bolt on and a retune can net me another 15-25 hp at the wheels then I may take interest. One of the biggest disappointments I have with the 8 is that it's pretty maxed out from the factory.
Also of interest is Subies ratings compared with Mazdas. Mazda had to downgrade the 8s ratings twice. Does it even make 232 hp/159 lbs now? The consensus at one time on this board was that most believed the 8 was around 220 hp. is Subaru conservative? Would many drivers see better reel world ratings. it would be smart for Subaru to be conservative. If they are conservative and they leave power for the tuners that would make a lot of people happy and be in direct contrast with the 8, wherein Mazda overstated and maxxed out power.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rototype-drive
Also of interest is Subies ratings compared with Mazdas. Mazda had to downgrade the 8s ratings twice. Does it even make 232 hp/159 lbs now? The consensus at one time on this board was that most believed the 8 was around 220 hp. is Subaru conservative? Would many drivers see better reel world ratings. it would be smart for Subaru to be conservative. If they are conservative and they leave power for the tuners that would make a lot of people happy and be in direct contrast with the 8, wherein Mazda overstated and maxxed out power.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...rototype-drive
11-28-2011, 04:05 PM
#38
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but it's still ugly.
It would have to have 3x's the power, twice the handling, give blow jobs, and come packed full of nymphomaniac victoria's secret models for me to consider it.
It would have to have 3x's the power, twice the handling, give blow jobs, and come packed full of nymphomaniac victoria's secret models for me to consider it.
11-28-2011, 04:19 PM
#39
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Let me tell you, although more (and what I paid for - says so on my window sticker) HP would be welcome, the $500 refund Mazda gave us all was very satisfactory compensation.
When the number went down in 2005, it was because the SAE introduced "SAE Certified Power" with SAE J2723, nothing to do with Mazda per say. All manufactures changed their ratings procedure to accomodate the new rules.
11-28-2011, 04:38 PM
#40
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This new car:
or this 7 year old car?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/6397253695/
Or 8 year old car
http://www.flickr.com/photos/9krpmrx8/5802880026/
Last edited by 9krpmrx8; 11-28-2011 at 04:43 PM.
11-28-2011, 05:08 PM
#41
Momentum Keeps Me Going
The car you show, the production one, is so far away from (one of) the concepts it's sad.... headlights, driving lights, hood lines, fender lines, side mirrors...
In fact, the production version looks temptingly like a rental car....
In fact, the production version looks temptingly like a rental car....
Last edited by Spin9k; 11-28-2011 at 05:12 PM.
11-28-2011, 10:18 PM
#43
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Here's the production. Suburban version. http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/28/s...ntent=FaceBook
11-29-2011, 09:17 AM
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Here's the production. Suburban version. http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/28/s...ntent=FaceBook
