Japan8

"Real-wheel drive and V8 engines — those are the things that make an American car. They need to build vehicles with an American attitude that you just don’t see any more.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14835745/

CAM427R

Ford is a dead company walking. Unless they do something miraculous in the design studio, which isn't likely. I've never been a fan of Fords, have always been a GM guy. (Family has owned nothing but GMs for as long as I can remember, my RX8 is the first foray away from the norm...except for a couple Chrysler minivans way back in the day...bad idea.) I know Ford owns something around 30 percent of Mazda but I try not think about it. Mazda has the ear of the young crowd, as they're new styling and vehicle lineup is blowing their parent Ford out of the water (Not in unit numbers, but in appeal, etc.). I think the teacher needs to learn from the student now.

In two years, Ford will be owned by Toyota, mark my words. They have wanted Ford ever since the Firestone debacle sent Ford to the cellar (Not that they weren't already on the way.)

GM is showing serious resurgence of late and Ford should be very, very worried.

Speaking of GM...I'm already planning on what I'm going to do to my 2008 Camaro SS hehe...

Tirminyl

Ford just needs to stop letting their bean counters water down their cars and they know this. Their car concepts are cool but they get watered down so much when it hits production.

map

Why would Toyota ever want Ford? Their enginieering, reliability, brand perception, marketshare, factories, non-union workforce, and profitability are already all better than Ford. There is no sense in buying Ford's $billions of dead weight. I'd like to see some sources or reasoning for that one.

CAM427R

Absorb their market share. Ford full-size trucks are still the standard of the industry and outsell Toyota's greatly. Not only that, fleets buy up tons of cheap Ford cars.

Also, with Toyota taking over they would shake up the leadership, hire new engineers, new designs, and try to reinvent the Ford brand, something they could do within a couple of years of a takeover. If American-built Ford cars were up to par with Toyota's while being cheaper, you would most likely buy the Ford. Thus, Toyota would still win because if a Ford sells, they get the profit.

map

I just don't see how that senario fits into Toyota's company ethos, which is basically centered on efficiency and cutting fat. The last thing they would want to do is buy fat. Ford's cars aren't even profitable to Ford, let alone Toyota, who would have to spend billions to buy it, and more billions to dismantle and restructure it. There's no reason to believe that the cars would be cheaper either, busting those workers unions wouldn't be an easy task, and higher quality = higher costs. Toyota is best served watching Ford fail and then grabbing Ford's customers. Buying it is not worth the risk.

Japanese companies don't do much in fleet sales because those cars are all heavily discounted and hurt brand image and resale.

saturn

Ford doesn't attack any segment well besides pickups and maybe SUVs. They have no mid-range luxury car (300, Infiniti G35s). Not many people are going to buy a Focus over a Civic with the reputation Toyota has -- they need to make the Focus more snazzy. They make no sports coupe -- the Mustang is a live-axle muscle car which has to compete with the cooler looking Charger.

The only thing getting me into a Ford ever is a Supra alternative. They need to make a stylish, 2 seater sports coupe with a V6/V8 and tons of horsepower. And if it could go around a turn without exploding I'd be freakin amazed.

Clavius

Pretty much Fords um "Vision" if you even want to call it that is completly out of touch once they go beyond the Mustang and F-150 truck's. The Fusion was supposed to be the erm "hip" new Taurus and the 500 the lux. Taurus both failed in my eyes atleast. Hell I even got a Fusion as a rental once and I wouldnt recommend it, felt like I was driving in a reclining chair that was on a boat. The 500 sadly just didnt get much attention after its initial release because the Taurus was still being made! The Focus oi... with a brand image of being the "gay car" litteraly I dont see how they cant justify either canceling the car or restyling it. The Thunderbird sold well for the first 2 years if that but the problem was it was to retro for its own damn good.

I believe they need to look at well Mazda and how they revamped their image. Before the 8 and the 6 came out I would of told you that Mazda was the uppity car company that sold that miata and that 626 wanna be lex car.. now I'd tell ya "Zoom Zoom!". I've seen a few documentries on the build of the Ford Gt and the Shelby concept car slated to replace the Gt (in rumor last I read) and they do have good/great artist.. I just dont understand why they dont let them run buckwild on their other cars that just are not fairing well.

Although I'll say this I seen the new Mustang Cobra/Shebly car commercial omfg I laughed my *** off classic line at the end.. "No couldnt find a speed limit I liked."

Japan8

Saturn is on target. bascho and I got into it the other day over the upcoming Lincoln lineup. but both analysts' comments and my own observations all point to Ford not being in touch with the market. Not having a sports sedan that competes with the BMW 3 Series, Lexus IS and Infiniti G35 is stupid. That market segment has turned into a gold mine and has been for sometime now. How about a luxury sports coupe? How about a nice roadster to compete with the miata and solstice/sky? How about an actually attractive looking sub-compact... the Focus does and has always looked like ***... even the European model.

Ford needs to stop panicing and running around like a chicken with its head cut off, and get down to making interesting cars... worry less about the market studies and more about what enthusiasts want. Those cars will at least get people into the showroom...

tjbourgoyne

Remember the Ford commercial a few years ago with the Ford great grandson. His mug was bigger than the new product line.

Clavius

I second that Japan8, they tried with the 500 but it just looked like a slightly fatter Taurus with leather standard and oh my 4wheel drive. Its just annoying knowing they as a whole could do better if they realized that there is more to their sales than just the Mustang and F150's.

Renesis_8

Exactly!, and when I read it, I thought of the RX-8 and perhaps the new Mazdaspeed 3. I dont know how much Mazda makes per RX-8 sold, but one thing I know is that it should be less than average comparing to other cars in the same catagory from other companies. Hand assembling the rotary engine would take a lot outta the profit already, and not to mention its price tag isnt very high. Same as the mazdaspeed 3, it is also pretty cheap compared to other competitors.

Ford needs to learn this, and not try to squeeze out every cent of profit from cars they build according to the market studies. Their cars would turn out ugly and cheaply-built! Start from listening to the market, and I agree with you guys that a V6/V8 2 door RWD car would be the right way to go, and put some real engineering into it.
________
LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

nycgps

iTrader: (1)

They cant help it, all those over paid garbage leaders in the company suck Ford dry. Now they finally *kicked* Henry Ford's Greatest Grandson outa the CEO chair and replace it with someone *better*

This new dude seems like he know what he is doing. but as a consumer, all I can say is that, make some cars thats more interesting. instead of always go for big engines.

bascho

First off, the Five Hundred is a far better car than the Taurus....just take a drive in each and you'll immediately see that. Secondly, the Taurus high sales volume was boosted by the fleet deals Ford offered. Ford has stopped offering fleet deals at the expense of market share. This was done purposely to help correct the damage to residuals caused by fleet sales.

Secondly, the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr have been a huge success and major pride point for the company. The conquest sales figures are through the roof. In case you don't understand conquest sales, this is the % of people that have turned in a non-Ford family vehicle to buy/lease a Ford family vehicle. Remember the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr are only a year old and Ford is commited to tweaking these cars until they are perfect. After one year the engine is already being upgraded and AWD is now optional. Next year there will be a Hybrid versions of the Fusion and Milan.

Thirdly, Ford is still very strong in trucks and SUV's which are a huge part of the market. Yes, that slice of the market is shrinking....but it will always be a very large slice and very important to every manufacturer. The Explorer continues to be the best selling SUV and will for a long time to come.

Lastly, the Edge/MKX are going to be a huge success as they spared no expense in offering the latest in technology in multiple areas. Ford is trying to clear out the old product designed and made by old processes and people. The direction the company is taking is the right one and time will prove that. Market research is basically asking people what they want and Ford is listening. People want optional AWD and Ford is delivering. People want wireless connectivity and the latest of all technology and Ford is delivering. People want power and fuel economy and Ford is delivering. Ford is no longer making excuses if a new product is not competitive......they are making the changes neccessary to make that product competitive period.

zoom44

The 500 is far better car then the Taurus ever was and.....

seriously i was typing out this post and realised Bascho said it all already. so just go back and re-read his post.

bascho

Thanks zoom Sometimes I feel that I have to defend Ford because sooo many people are hard on them. Ford is made up of people like every other company folks!!!! People can change and they have around Ford.......you'll see that in the products in the next 4 years. Nothing happens over-night in this industry......but I assure you good changes have been made. The people that cannot change are being cleared out during the restructuring. The mentality around here definitely is change or die.

saturn

The Milan and Zephyr aren't Ford branded even though they might be under the Ford Motor Company umbrella. Maybe it's not a big deal, but awesome looking Lincoln's aren't helping the Ford brand -- just the company.

Maybe not a big deal, but the word "Ford" still evokes a feeling of total uninspiration (is that a word?) to me. Even their logo is ugly as all get-out. They need a fancy schmancy all chrome badge like everyone else.

Clavius

And they still make the Focus.... dont forget that ><!
Overall I see that Ford as a whole is making strides but they are spreading themselves thin, by having each brand almost be a copy of each other. GM atleast is now making great strides in my eyes atleast to have each brand be different and evoke a different emotion or appeal if you will.

Say have Ford be for the first time buyers and truck guys, still have the mustang as their flag ship car and for shyts and giggles bring back the Thunderbird as their rear wheel drive 2 door coup everyone wants minus the retro. (think I've said that already lol)

Mercury, for the middle age folk whom already owned a Ford and are upgrading since they now make more money in life. Also turn the Cougar back into a rear wheel drive car please instead of a bad Celica wanna be clone.

Lincoln, have this brand compete directly against Cadi and Lexus. Problem is I can only name one Lincoln car the Ls (its still being made right?). The Zypher is being renamed if not already if I remember correctly.

Just some thoughts.....

Phade2

The Fusion/Zypher/500 are riding the coat tails of the mazda6. Eventhough they share the same platform and drivetrain, every magazine review states that the 6 is far superior than it's cousins. Ford's on the right track with the mustang and the gt, but they got a long way to go. With all the competiton in the mid-sized sedan class it's going to be a really long time before ford catches up to the camary and the accord.

The fusion looks alright, I just hate the interior and the tail lights....the back reminds me of an old school accord.

bascho

The Mazda 6 was the first car built on the CD3 platform which was a joint venture between Ford and Mazda. Do you know how much time and money is involved in development of a platform??? Ford didn't copy the Mazda 6 because it became an instant hit.....they helped create it. The CD3 platform is already becoming the most important platform to Ford and all it's family brands. More than a dozen nameplates will be built on this platform in next 2 years.

So many of you think Ford and Mazda operate as separate companies but they do not. Sure many aspects of day-to-day business are separate.....but planning and development of product is very integrated. Mazda is controlled by Ford.....you can think they are not......but I assure you they are. It is very important to not have brands compete directly with each other for customers. Volvo cannot go upscale because that is Jaguar. Jaguar can't go further upscale because that is Aston Martin. Ford can't be the just zoom zoom fun....that's Mazda. Brand identity is extremely hard to define and not cannibalizing each others customer base is important. Many of the products compete in the same segments....but they appeal to different people within the segment.

BTW, I don't think the Fusion/Milan have very far to go to beat the Camry or Accord......and neither do many of the automotive press. As long as Ford stays connected to the customers and invests in these cars, they will be the best. Ford has never had a shortage of game changing vehicles......it's the abandonment of those vehicles that leaves everyone shaking their heads. The Taurus was a class-leading car.....why did Ford let it go for so long without change? The Lincoln LS was one of the best Lincolns ever......why didn't they make it better? The Focus was a Car & Drivers 10 best as many times as the RX8 has been.......why did Ford let it get old? These are just a few examples of many. Ford's biggest problem is complacency when they have a hit vehicle on their hands. If Ford continued to develop and perfect these cars in the way they have with the Explorer and F150.....Toyota would still be a small Japanese company.

Basically, Ford needs to adopt a 80's-90's Japanese product mentality. The Japs made their mark by building great vehicles like the Accord and Camry and then year after year they just tweaked them a little bit. Not huge changes......just small increments toward building a perfect car. BMW used to do this as well......in fact that was probably the inspiration for the Japs. Here is the problem for the Japanese and Germans......they are going away from the very thing that made them successful awarding them perception of quality. All the sudden both are making big changes in short periods of time. It's hard to control quality with so many entirely new vehicles and it's starting to show. If Toyota loses the perception of quality then they share the same fate as GM and Ford.

Perception of quality is two-edged sword. It can be your best friend or your worse enemy.......and although it tends to change slowly, it can seem like an instant to those it impacts.

Clavius

Those two bolded lines kinda scare me really and to me give me some idea's on why we havent had a MazdaSpeed Rx-8 or gains in HP usualy seen in most cars around the world. Our exterior hasnt changed only slight modifications on the inside and usualy when this occurs Hp is increased if only slightly but still its increased.

The MS6 and MS3 with the words Boscho said make some sence. There isnt a Fusion SVT (yet) and they dont make the Focus SVT anymore so they dont have any direct competition. One could agrue that the Mustang is lined up against the Rx-8 since both cars are each companies "Sports Car", and may be holding the 8 back for some ridiculous fear everyone would flock to the 8 and away from the Mustang.

Oh just remembered Mazda is making the newer A/T's come with the 6 port Rotary Engine soon if not already so that is atleast one major change I guess, though someone told me it will still have the same Hp as the older 4 ports?!?

bascho

Although some of your points are good ones.....I don't think the RX8 is being held back because of the Mustang. The Renesis is at it's limit with regards n/a hp......FI is the only way to make more power. Also, the Mustang and RX8 are very different from each other. Believe me, I've owned both and they are night and day. I am an auto enthusiast so I like both.....but for very different reasons. In reality the typical customers for each are very different people. No one that I know of here at Ford thinks the RX8 needs to be held back because it would hurt Mustang sales. Here's the reason: the RX8 is a nice Japanese sports car......the Mustang is a part of American culture.

Japan8

Exactly bascho. It really annoys me when RX-8 fanboys say something like Ford is holding the RX-8 back because of the Mustang. Yes... some enthusiasts would cross-shop the two cars, but ultimately they appeal to different people. The Mustang is an American icon muscle car. Guys in Florida and North Carolina who like to drag their cars and drop in bigger motors aren't even interested in a RX-8. Sports car guys who like to "take 'em in the twisties" and autocross aren't likely going to be interested in a Mustang.

YOu are right bascho... Ford does keep dropping the ball. Part of my issue with the upcoming Lincoln lineup. The LS was a great Lincoln for its time... if Ford kept improving the car, it could have been so much more. A shame really. What it seems like the Ford lineup is missing is a BMW and Audi competitor. Even Toyota/Lexus is trying to target this market as well as their traditional MB luxury market. A FWD plaftform with AWD just isn't going to be enough to topple the e90. And that should be one of Ford's aims.

DOMINION

I like the sond of real wheels drive v8's