Ford passes Toyota in initial quality rankings
06-06-2007, 05:27 PM
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Ford passes Toyota in initial quality rankings
Who would have thought?
Ford wins most awards in rankings
By JEFF KAROUB
DETROIT
Ford supplanted Toyota as the leader of the pack in initial quality rankings, taking the top spot in five of 19 segments in the 2007 survey by J.D. Power and Associates, released Wednesday.
Porsche again dominated the overall ranking of brands, averaging 91 problems per 100 vehicles as it had last year. That compared with a 2007 industry average of 125 problems per 100 vehicles. Last year it was 124.
Ford Motor Co. earned segment awards for the Ford Mustang, Lincoln Mark LT, Lincoln MKZ, Mercury Milan and Mazda MX-5 Miata. Mazda is 33.4 percent owned by Ford.
Toyota Motor Corp., which grabbed the top spot in 11 segments last year, captured only four this year -- the 4Runner, Sequoia, Tacoma and Lexus RX350/RX400h.
By JEFF KAROUB
DETROIT
Ford supplanted Toyota as the leader of the pack in initial quality rankings, taking the top spot in five of 19 segments in the 2007 survey by J.D. Power and Associates, released Wednesday.
Porsche again dominated the overall ranking of brands, averaging 91 problems per 100 vehicles as it had last year. That compared with a 2007 industry average of 125 problems per 100 vehicles. Last year it was 124.
Ford Motor Co. earned segment awards for the Ford Mustang, Lincoln Mark LT, Lincoln MKZ, Mercury Milan and Mazda MX-5 Miata. Mazda is 33.4 percent owned by Ford.
Toyota Motor Corp., which grabbed the top spot in 11 segments last year, captured only four this year -- the 4Runner, Sequoia, Tacoma and Lexus RX350/RX400h.
06-06-2007, 06:17 PM
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whoa, nice to see some good press for Ford.
06-06-2007, 09:38 PM
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The journalist reviews of the new Toyota products have not been too glowing about the decline in materials and build quality.
Hyundai seems to be on a roll though.
Good for Ford to get some good press and way to go Miata!
Hyundai seems to be on a roll though.
Good for Ford to get some good press and way to go Miata!
06-06-2007, 09:43 PM
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J.D. Power and Associates ratings are very very suspect, because remember they take the consumers complaints.
For example, the iDrive system on BMWs... When J.D. Powers and assoc, asked American consumers within the first 6 months of ownership many American owners rated the car defective as they didn't like the iDrive system. The consumers were the idiots that didn't read the manual or understand the system, yet the cars with it got lower ratings from J.D. Power and Associates.
J.D. Power and Associates ratings from the RX-8 for the first two years were pretty low too because consumers didn't get that they needed to check their oil every fill up (as you have to do with all rotary vehicles). Yet as soon as Mazda started supplying the DVD explaining to check it, the defect ratings change for the better.
J.D. Power and Associates mean nothing... just look at half your neighbors... would you trust then to rate your car for you??? J.D. Power and Associates does.
This paragraph says it all:
So if someone didn't like that you needed to check the oil every 1000 miles or every fill up... they would mark that as a design defect.
If someone thought the sunroof didn't open big enough... that was a design defect.
If someone didn't like Orange displays and preferred green, they would list that as a design defect.
If someone didn't like a grey car, and wanted purple instead, but the manufacture didn't make purple cars... The 2007 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study would consider that a design defect.
The only accurate reports are the ones the dealers actually submit... those show real problems... not that the consumer was too dumb to read the manual. Interesting on those reports from car dealers world wide- that Mazda is normally rated in the top 3.
For example, the iDrive system on BMWs... When J.D. Powers and assoc, asked American consumers within the first 6 months of ownership many American owners rated the car defective as they didn't like the iDrive system. The consumers were the idiots that didn't read the manual or understand the system, yet the cars with it got lower ratings from J.D. Power and Associates.
J.D. Power and Associates ratings from the RX-8 for the first two years were pretty low too because consumers didn't get that they needed to check their oil every fill up (as you have to do with all rotary vehicles). Yet as soon as Mazda started supplying the DVD explaining to check it, the defect ratings change for the better.
J.D. Power and Associates mean nothing... just look at half your neighbors... would you trust then to rate your car for you??? J.D. Power and Associates does.
This paragraph says it all:
The 2007 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study looks at both manufacturing defects and design problems in new cars as reported by their owners.
If someone thought the sunroof didn't open big enough... that was a design defect.
If someone didn't like Orange displays and preferred green, they would list that as a design defect.
If someone didn't like a grey car, and wanted purple instead, but the manufacture didn't make purple cars... The 2007 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study would consider that a design defect.
The only accurate reports are the ones the dealers actually submit... those show real problems... not that the consumer was too dumb to read the manual. Interesting on those reports from car dealers world wide- that Mazda is normally rated in the top 3.
06-07-2007, 12:13 AM
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What you're saying has some truth to it, but the problem is if JD Power & Associates rated the RX-8 as the best car ever, everyone would be telling us how great a publication it is. The BMW iDrive example was clearly an exceptional case and probably rightfully so (it really was the worst UI in the history of all time). That doesn't mean you ignore everything the publication has to say.
Some people are going to live in their world of fantasy and say the RX-8 only has problems if you don't know how to take care of it. I'm elated that you are that in love with your car and yourself, but for the average, reasonably intelligent person out there who knows how to weigh various pieces of information, JD Power & Associates is a useful source.
Some people are going to live in their world of fantasy and say the RX-8 only has problems if you don't know how to take care of it. I'm elated that you are that in love with your car and yourself, but for the average, reasonably intelligent person out there who knows how to weigh various pieces of information, JD Power & Associates is a useful source.
06-07-2007, 03:27 AM
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Ford does make some quality auto's, so does GM, etc. The stigma that US manufacturers dont make a quality product is still out there.
The only reason (as of now) I wouldnt buy another US auto is simple. Resale value. There in the toilet.
Icemark- All valid points. However Ill add that not everyoneare car nuts like we are. The average Joe looking for a new car actually believes in the credibility of J.D. Power, etc.
The only reason (as of now) I wouldnt buy another US auto is simple. Resale value. There in the toilet.
Icemark- All valid points. However Ill add that not everyoneare car nuts like we are. The average Joe looking for a new car actually believes in the credibility of J.D. Power, etc.
06-07-2007, 05:23 AM
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06-07-2007, 11:49 AM
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What you're saying has some truth to it, but the problem is if JD Power & Associates rated the RX-8 as the best car ever, everyone would be telling us how great a publication it is. The BMW iDrive example was clearly an exceptional case and probably rightfully so (it really was the worst UI in the history of all time). That doesn't mean you ignore everything the publication has to say.
Some people are going to live in their world of fantasy and say the RX-8 only has problems if you don't know how to take care of it. I'm elated that you are that in love with your car and yourself, but for the average, reasonably intelligent person out there who knows how to weigh various pieces of information, JD Power & Associates is a useful source.
How can you take any of that seriously if you only polled 1 to 2% of the owners and you don't define the data. Hell 1% of the owners on this board, probably hae had a new motor... what if they were the only ones JD power asked? How would the car rate? How would any car rate if only 2% of middle America was asked? Well just read the latest JD power report and you'll find out.
The only real information that should be posted like this, should be on actual defects... and that is what you should be wanting to read. That is what you should be wanting to know.
06-07-2007, 06:32 PM
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There is a bit of truth to this statement. Toyota has much larger expectations by it's owners. What goes up, must come down, so Toyota owners are much less forgiving, and expect a ton more out of their cars. I don't think it has anything to do with Toyota slipping. It's all psychological and subjective. Toyota still builds better cars, and their quality is superior, and that's never gonna change no matter what you read.
And more... as more and more of the manufacturing moves abroad... to the US, Canada and Mexico... you're going to see a change in quality and reliability. My sources have said that they have seen a noticeable difference between Japan built models and US built models.
06-07-2007, 07:31 PM
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And the converse is true as well... Toyota and Honda owners not complaining because they believe that Japanese automakers only make the best quality, reliable cars. So theirs much just be a "Friday" car.
And more... as more and more of the manufacturing moves abroad... to the US, Canada and Mexico... you're going to see a change in quality and reliability. My sources have said that they have seen a noticeable difference between Japan built models and US built models.
And more... as more and more of the manufacturing moves abroad... to the US, Canada and Mexico... you're going to see a change in quality and reliability. My sources have said that they have seen a noticeable difference between Japan built models and US built models.
06-07-2007, 09:34 PM
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i pwn therefore i am
see I actually thought the iDrive system to be one of the easiest UI systems to use once you read the manual... so a bunch of people that didn't... well that tells me that there are not a bunch of average, reasonably intelligent people out there, but rather a bunch of people that want a appliance.
And that is my point... you shouldn't. No one should take a source of info for face value. There is no listing of how many new Mazda owners they polled (and typically it is less than 2% across the whole board)... there is no differentiation between a defect or an customer perceived issue.
How can you take any of that seriously if you only polled 1 to 2% of the owners and you don't define the data. Hell 1% of the owners on this board, probably hae had a new motor... what if they were the only ones JD power asked? How would the car rate? How would any car rate if only 2% of middle America was asked? Well just read the latest JD power report and you'll find out.
The only real information that should be posted like this, should be on actual defects... and that is what you should be wanting to read. That is what you should be wanting to know.
And that is my point... you shouldn't. No one should take a source of info for face value. There is no listing of how many new Mazda owners they polled (and typically it is less than 2% across the whole board)... there is no differentiation between a defect or an customer perceived issue.
How can you take any of that seriously if you only polled 1 to 2% of the owners and you don't define the data. Hell 1% of the owners on this board, probably hae had a new motor... what if they were the only ones JD power asked? How would the car rate? How would any car rate if only 2% of middle America was asked? Well just read the latest JD power report and you'll find out.
The only real information that should be posted like this, should be on actual defects... and that is what you should be wanting to read. That is what you should be wanting to know.
And the iDrive system got much, much better. When it first came out you could not change the AC setting in under 20 seconds. Of course there are people that aren't capable of handling the popcorn button on a microwave, but iDrive was much too complicated at first.
06-07-2007, 09:51 PM
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J.D. Power and Associates ratings are very very suspect, because remember they take the consumers complaints.
For example, the iDrive system on BMWs... When J.D. Powers and assoc, asked American consumers within the first 6 months of ownership many American owners rated the car defective as they didn't like the iDrive system. The consumers were the idiots that didn't read the manual or understand the system, yet the cars with it got lower ratings from J.D. Power and Associates.
J.D. Power and Associates ratings from the RX-8 for the first two years were pretty low too because consumers didn't get that they needed to check their oil every fill up (as you have to do with all rotary vehicles). Yet as soon as Mazda started supplying the DVD explaining to check it, the defect ratings change for the better.
J.D. Power and Associates mean nothing... just look at half your neighbors... would you trust then to rate your car for you??? J.D. Power and Associates does.
This paragraph says it all:
So if someone didn't like that you needed to check the oil every 1000 miles or every fill up... they would mark that as a design defect.
If someone thought the sunroof didn't open big enough... that was a design defect.
If someone didn't like Orange displays and preferred green, they would list that as a design defect.
If someone didn't like a grey car, and wanted purple instead, but the manufacture didn't make purple cars... The 2007 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study would consider that a design defect.
The only accurate reports are the ones the dealers actually submit... those show real problems... not that the consumer was too dumb to read the manual. Interesting on those reports from car dealers world wide- that Mazda is normally rated in the top 3.
For example, the iDrive system on BMWs... When J.D. Powers and assoc, asked American consumers within the first 6 months of ownership many American owners rated the car defective as they didn't like the iDrive system. The consumers were the idiots that didn't read the manual or understand the system, yet the cars with it got lower ratings from J.D. Power and Associates.
J.D. Power and Associates ratings from the RX-8 for the first two years were pretty low too because consumers didn't get that they needed to check their oil every fill up (as you have to do with all rotary vehicles). Yet as soon as Mazda started supplying the DVD explaining to check it, the defect ratings change for the better.
J.D. Power and Associates mean nothing... just look at half your neighbors... would you trust then to rate your car for you??? J.D. Power and Associates does.
This paragraph says it all:
So if someone didn't like that you needed to check the oil every 1000 miles or every fill up... they would mark that as a design defect.
If someone thought the sunroof didn't open big enough... that was a design defect.
If someone didn't like Orange displays and preferred green, they would list that as a design defect.
If someone didn't like a grey car, and wanted purple instead, but the manufacture didn't make purple cars... The 2007 J.D. Power Initial Quality Study would consider that a design defect.
The only accurate reports are the ones the dealers actually submit... those show real problems... not that the consumer was too dumb to read the manual. Interesting on those reports from car dealers world wide- that Mazda is normally rated in the top 3.
I like your comments Icemark...
A motor writer here once said about a Mazda .." I don't like the chrome Mazda Wing LOGO on the Steering Wheel as I had a sun glare problem from time to time".....
If JD Power are going to mention and include the Mazda MX-5 as Fords product in ratings surveys then they should also include Volvo, Range Rover, Jaguar etc.
I still have probity issues with JDP, where car makers have to PAY to use their results in any marketing or advertising for any model.
06-07-2007, 10:57 PM
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06-08-2007, 12:50 AM
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You're right. I only go by what I see and experience, and I like Japanese cars more , and have seen them last longer and be more reliable. Doesn't mean it's right, it's just what I see and have experienced personally. That's why I ignore surveys, because they are too flawed, and too inaccurate. Even if a car I own gets rated as high reliability, I'm not gonna hold my breath because anything can happen. It still comes down to personal experience and luck. There's just no way to know, but I still think you can minimize your chance of having car troubles if you buy a Honda Or Toyota. However, it's all a gamble, and hopefully you buy a car and don't have any problems. Somewhere out there someone bought a Toyota Corolla, which has proven itself as one of the most reliable cars ever built, yet they had nothing but trouble with it, and it was a nightmare to own. Nothing is a guarantee.
06-08-2007, 05:22 PM
#23
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And the converse is true as well... Toyota and Honda owners not complaining because they believe that Japanese automakers only make the best quality, reliable cars. So theirs much just be a "Friday" car.
And more... as more and more of the manufacturing moves abroad... to the US, Canada and Mexico... you're going to see a change in quality and reliability. My sources have said that they have seen a noticeable difference between Japan built models and US built models.
And more... as more and more of the manufacturing moves abroad... to the US, Canada and Mexico... you're going to see a change in quality and reliability. My sources have said that they have seen a noticeable difference between Japan built models and US built models.
My sister has just purchased a new 07 KIA Cerato 2.0litre.
I am very impressed for the price just how far Korea have come in 10 years, the car is very Toyota Corolla to look at but has a medium car feel, fit and finish is very good, interior trim plastics are a little cheap, for a base model has a large list of features, the only show up is handeling...not quite up to Europe or Japanese (Mazda) standards..
06-08-2007, 11:15 PM
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I would be a lot more interested in seeing the total cost of repairs over 10 years. I don't care if car A has 10 flaws and car B has 1 flaw, if the 10 flaws are things like loose radio buttons and the 1 flaw is a dead transmission. The total cost of repairs could also cover things such as rental cars, tow trucks, etc.
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