brillo

With the recent bankruptcy declaration of Delphi and the potential impending bankruptcy of GM as a result, I’ve found it interesting that the media is not taking the usual liberal spin on the situation. What I mean is, I would figure you would have all these articles on how the poor, union workers are being screwed by the big corporations, the usual class warfare stuff, but amazingly, the media seems to be exposing the truth behind the absolutely crazy compensation packages of these autoworkers.

This could be really interesting as the UAW decides what to do in terms of negotiations, because there cries for help are starting to fall of deaf ears. If they lose the media/PR war, they are really hosed, because the politicians will be even less likely to come to there aid. It puts the big 3 in a much better position to dictate terms, and the UAW basically has to take it.

On another random note, I wonder if the Delphi bankruptcy judge realizes he will be setting the precedent for the future structure and organization of the entire American auto industry, no pressure there.

Now, I for one don’t think that the UAW works should be making Macdonald’s wages, but by the same token, many of these workers make more than I do and I have a college degree and 5 years of banking experience. Many of these workers make including benefits, more than $100,000 a year, whether they work or not. This is ridiculous, and is going to have to change. I’m sorry, but I don’t feel sorry for you if your going to get your wages cut from $100K plus down to $50-60K a year as a line worker.

Actually, if the big 3 can modernize their plants, which would use fewer workers, the remaining employees would prolly get more than that.

Overall, these financial troubles will be a good thing, kinda like the increase in the cost of gas. It hurts at first, but something has to be done to improve the efficiency of the U.S. auto industry, or the whole thing will die. I’m sorry for those that are hurt by the cuts and changes, but the long term benefits will make it worth it.

Maybe, before I die, I will be able to drive an American car I actually want.

BlueEyes

It'll be interesting to see if these union luddites will let that happen.

zoom44

this is just the kind of statement that just pisses me off to no end. why should you get paid more because you are in "banking". how is your job worth more? because you paid more to learn it? tough crap. maybe you got ripped off. not everyone that has a degree is competent in their job. in fact i would be willing to bet that more of those 100,000 plus a year workers are competent in their job than those degreed bankers. you dont feel sorry if their wage gets cut in half? well i think the folks at my bank make too much judging from the fees they charge. here's an idea for you- lets put your kids in a college based on what you make right now and when the bill starts rolling in cut your salary in half. now how do you feel?

BlueEyes

Dude, they're overpaid. Plain and simple. Maybe cutting salaries for existing employee's is a bit harsh, but certainly, new employees should get nothing near the levels of pay they get now. Unions ***** squeezing tactics are really getting out of control, it's time that the owners run the companies again, not the employees.

Magic8

Don't forget the plethora of retired employees and their retirement benefits. GM is still on hook for a lot of Delphi employee's retirements benefits. So in addition to the unions, they have to negotiate with the retired employees.

zoom44

cut all the salaries in half of the guys making 1 million or more a year.

Steiner

Some of these unions need to be put in check. It's ridiculous the kind of things they've extorted from employers and employees alike.

NomisR

They're overpaid, not that i would mind if i get paid what they got for their work... but it's jobs that's easily replaceable..

brillo

The folks at Gm making a $1MM or more certainly deserve to get cut back, as they certainly aren't earning their keep, don't get me started on executive compensation, thats a whole other issue to be addressed.

Zoom, I wasn’t trying to imply that those without college degrees aren’t as smart as someone with one, I for one know plenty of people with college degrees that are dumb as posts, and several without degrees that are likely smarter than I. The reality is, the job market does reward those with higher education with typically higher salaries, usually b/c the jobs are more mentally and intellectually demanding or require lots of training and education (as well as continuing education). There are of course exceptions to this, but more often than not this is the current employment paradigm we live in.

A lot of these guys literally spend their whole career installing one component all day long on an assembly line, and as a result, most people and the market don’t feel that their work should be compensated as highly as someone in a professional position (lawyer/accountant/doctor/banking/consulting/programmer/engineer etc…..). Its about your ability to value add to the economy.

Again, I’m not saying these folks should be making minimum wage, but non-union skilled labors here in Texas can make between $40K-$80K a year, which is not a bad wage. I’m not a mean person, if we could, I’d pay everyone $100K and given them an RX8, but the reality is we can’t, we live in a society dictated by supply/demand and scarcity of resources.

The irony is, sometimes I want out of this whole banking thing and just to fix cars for the rest of my life

BlueEyes

Are you in an UAW or something?
At least the guys getting paid 1 mill a year have a skill set that every able bodied individual isn't born wiht.

BlueEyes

I don't want to sound like a dick, but it's one of my pet peeves, so...
There are only 5 professions, Law, Medicine, Engineering, Clery, Teaching. In a profession, you can lose you liscence and be unable to practice any more. It might be same for accountants now, I really don't know. It pisses me off when people run around adn say "im a professional (garbage man, baby sitter, data entry clerk etc..)

zoom44

Nope I am in no union what so ever. I agree in fact that the unions have squeezed some hefty compensation out of the companies and may nee to be put in check a little. But the companies negotiated those contracts and agreed to those levels of health care and retirement etc. should the line employees now be punished for the mistakes of those at the top (you know the ones with the skill sets you talk about) there was a time in this country when the unions were the reason anyone got a decent wage in this country. Has the pendulum swung too far? Probably. And the unions should see that buy making some concessions on new hire wages they are helping all of their union members in the long run buy helping the company remain solvent. But the line employees shouldn’t be blamed for making what they do- those contacts were negotiated and accepted by the companies in good faith.

brillo

Accounts have licenses as well as advisory boards. Banking/finance has a variety of liceneses depending on what you do, and in both cases you can be barred for life from either profession as a result of your conduct.

Enron took down a few CPA's and bankers, for good reason.

BlueEyes

It's hard to make a right decision when you're nuts are laid out on a cutting bord and the union guillitine is hanging over head (no pun intended :p).

I read an article, in the economist I think, a couple years ago. Do you know where the most inefficient ports of the advanced world are (i.e G7/8 nations)? The west coast of the United States of America. That should strike everyone as odd. Why is this? because the union has the ability to cause 1 billion dollars a day damage to the US economy if they don't get their way. Their way? No automation that removes human jobs (okay if it causes new hires), more union jobs, more pay, more benifits, more more more more more. If they don't get it, guess what. You'll have hundreds of cargo ships doing circles around each other off the west coast. How long can the US really loose 1 billion dollars a day before they say "we have no choice".

I think "we have no choice" has probably become a popular phrase in board rooms of companies dealing with unions.

brillo

There is no question that true blame for this mess rests in the hands of some of the most arrogant, inept, shortsighted management going back about 8 decades. The buck stops with the company, as they should have figured out along time ago screwing your employees doesn’t pay in the long run. That said, the Unions for the last 3 decades have been just about as bad in terms arrogance and ineptitude, and as a result, have contributed greatly to this financial mess. Auto unions were very necessary about 60-80 years ago, but there time has past, and now rather than advance the causes of the worker they are aiding in the destruction of their own jobs.

I’d love to hang every CEO of GM going back to about 1950, but most are dead, and killing the ones in charge now won’t fix the problems of that the forefather created. The reality is, GM, and therefore, all those jobs (union or not) are in peril, and the only solution is going to be that 20-25% of those jobs are going to have to go away, along with cuts in compensation. Either that, or all they all lose. It’s a lesser of two evils decision, but the sooner they get it over with the better.

We haven’t even gotten into the macro economic implications of GM truly crashing and burning for the U.S. economy.

DARKMAZ8

The real question is......how many companies with unions have stayed away from bankruptcy protection.

Aoshi Shinomori

If that ever did happen, it would be a dark day in the States...and even in other parts of the world as well. It really upsets me that union workers get paid so damned much. Now, it isn't necessarily the employees fault, if given the choice between 50k and 100k for the same job, which would you choose? Unions need to be stopped and fast. Like BlueEyes said, they've got many corporations by the ***** and this is absolutely unacceptable. Eliminate them altogether and then let the right wages set themselves. It's very simple, if people apply for jobs but are offered too little money, they won't accept. If the corporation can't get enough employees by paying what they are paying, they'll have to up the ante and an equilibrium will be found. Simple high school economics. It's a shame many people didn't understand this about 60-80 years ago.

zoom44

its a shame you dont undertand the reason unions were needed 80 years ago. company A is the only employer for 50 miles. they pay what they pay and you accept that or your kids dont eat. working conditions were horrible. safety? unheard of concept. if you got hurt and couldnt work- your fault no mater what eh conditions were. try to negotiate for better pay or conditions? your a trouble maker and might just dissapear or turn up dead one night. shame your kids wont eat tomorrow. the company had all the power period. unions changed that. pendulum swung too far? maybe. but you cannont just outlaw unions.

Aoshi Shinomori

Zoom, I think you misunderstand me. I do understand why they were needed. I was not talking about unions being a shame 80 years ago, but the blokes who allowed unions to get the upper hand on them. It was a gradual thing, it didn't just happen. I definitely agree there was a time for unions, and that time has come to and end. Why can't we outlaw unions today? What would be the worst thing to happen? Now it would definitely be wrong to cut people's paychecks in half, I agree there, but to continue paying that like is ludicrous and it will be difficult for companies like GM to make profits. The wages will set themselves to a reasonable amount, it happens today in places without unions. Unions are, in my opinion, unlawful almost. They are pretty much pickpocketing major corporations. Now Zoom, there is no hostility in my words, just trying to make my opinion clear. We're still pals, right?

DARKMAZ8

When companies can not make a profit or compete because they are being squeezed for every golden egg, they have two options. Either go out of business or go to areas where unions are not as strong. This used to mean going to the mostly nonunionized Southern United States, where for the last 20 years every major automobile manufacturer has chosen to build new manufacturing plants, but now means to go overseas in search of the most competitive place to do business.

In the same vein, they have also agreed to outrageous union contracts because the bills and heartburn for them would come due on some else’s watch in the future.

And all the union iron clad contracts mean nothing if the company they work for goes out of business. Just ask the workers of steel and airline companies

brillo

Getting the thread kinda back on track here, has anyone else noticed the media bend on this story? How about those in the midwest? How is it being spun? The detroit papers seem to be rather realistic about the situation, I out to go visit the NYT's to see how they are covering it.

zoom44

of course aoshi there was no animosity intended. i agree with darkmaz- the union members need to understand that breaking the company is no good for them either. but its hard for a person making 80k a year to understand why they migth bbe asked to reduce theri pay when the execs get multi tens of millions a year. even the ones who leave in disgrace.

zoom44

i actually havent seen one piece on it here. but i havent read a paper in the last few days. nothing in sundays paper that i saw. nothing on local news about it.

Aoshi Shinomori

I haven't seen much of anything about it here either. I'm sure if it becomes more drastic, it will hit soon.

DARKMAZ8

When you are running a multi billion dollar company the stake holders have the right to pay the front runners whatever they think is fair for the job at hand.

In any union job, one person has a designated function. He cannot perform any of the duties of others. Yet, each is required to be on site, 24/7.

For example, a bulldozer pushes dirt into a pile, a loader places it into a dump truck, and he drives it to where it is dumped, and another function begins.

But, the loader driver, and the dump driver are required to wait for the dirt to be pushed by the dozer. Then, the loader guy puts it in the truck, and the dozer idles, out of the way. They both wait for the driver to return, and it begins again.

$49 an hour! I can run a loader... hmmmmmmm....