zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

Just did this yesterday and Virginia International Raceway. Got to whip Beemer M3 (400 hp v8, twin clutch paddle shift sequential 7 speed) and the flagship M6 (540 hp v10 single clutch paddle shift). Had the M6 up to 155 several times but could go no faster; running out of track and hit the limits of the active suspension to keep the wheels on the pavement instead of just skimming the high spots.

Total class act school with lead/follow type of instruction, three different track layouts, plenty of goood food and good times. Came a way with a whole new respect for the BMW marque; I had no idea they were as capable as they are Should get a DVD in a few weeks from the in car cameras that should show what a total rookie looks like manhandling world class cars around a world class course

If anyone gets the chance to do this, I highly recommend it. 8 hours of ***** out driving, food, and great instruction. Best time I've had in my life.

Krazed_Rx8

iTrader: (5)

Sounds like fun, how much was it?

renesisgenesis

cool, too bad you didn't get to heal-toe with a proper manual. Also too bad the m3 was detuned to 400 bhp.

still, any track time in any car is probly fun as hell. im jealous.

MICHGoBlue

This is 2009, losing seconds on a lap track because manual gear is more fun just doesn't cut it anymore.

I would never get a sports car without a manual gearbox, but I also don't track.

But people need to really start embracing technology that's more efficient but still retain knowledge and respect towards the good ole' slow albeit fun manual transmission.


Wish events like these would happen here in south central WI.

dshiznit1489

So how much was it?

8 Maniac

iTrader: (1)

google: bmw performance driving

Once you get there you can select which class and it says prices... I'm guessing it was the 1 day M school which is $1300.

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

Yep, $1300, and you get every cents' worth.

While a nice heel-toe shift is truly a joy to behold, it can't match the speed of the sequential twin clutch. It's like .004 second shift without lifting, damn near seamless. On the other hand, the M6 single clutch shifts about like a fully loaded Mack truck; you could definitely outshift it with a well set-up manual.

Even I could

The more I think about it, the more I think the cars were driving us as much as we were driving them. The instructors made us keep the MDM traction control engaged, which limits wheelspin (thus explaining my stupidly awesome drifting in the last radius turn before the front straight), and the probably smart reduction in the V10 output to keep me from launching myself at the top of the back straight. But, the training on how to find the go-fast line and how to improve my braking was pretty valuable, and I've certainly got the bug to go back and learn how to do it better with more 'me' and less 'machine' input.

And while I really respect the BMW marque now, I'd never go out and buy one. Too expensive for my bank account, and geez, I rarely hit over 125 on my way to 7-11 to get milk; what do I need all that extra power for? Think I'll stick with my 8, it still gets under my skin when I hear that 8K rpm exhaust note

mscamp02

iTrader: (3)

good to see after spending 1300 on driving bmw m class you still love the 8

jones75254

iTrader: (2)

Cool experience. Pricey bit for 1 day of driving but if u have the money then im quite sure its $ well spent. I would do it in a heartbeat....your next step is to whip out the wallet and look into taking a few supercars out!

M3/M6 being badass for sure, but could u imagine taking out an F-430, Lambo or even an R8...wonder what that session would cost $1300....maybe per hour

CarAndDriver

Sounds like a blast. I'm envious. Personally, I'd take one of the DSG-type transmissions. I know I'm not an expert shifter, so those would beat me in a heartbeat. Too bad they are so dang expensive. Hopefully they will come down in price.

Well for comparison. One day Skip Barber (Mazdas) is $795 and two day is $1295. Bob Bondurant , Corvette Z06 one day is $1650. These are driving classes. Both schools have other classes like racing, etc.

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

My best part of the whole day was when the lead instructor, Mike Renner, was the lead driver in our M3 group. When it was my turn to follow him, I was determined to paint his bumper, but the instructors had their traction control off and damned if he couldn't pull me on acceleration. There is a small infield course call the Patriot Course that has an exact GPS duplication of the Corkscrew at Laguna Seca. I decided to try to make up time on Mike by late braking at the top of the straight leading into the Corkscrew. I stayed on the gas way past the braking point and then stood on the ABS for all it was worth and thought for sure I was going to launch into the infield, but at the turn in point I feathered off the brake as I turned in and damned if that M3 didn't turn in like it was no big deal and I made one of my best passes down the 'screw, drifting the left hand hairpin at the bottom. Didn't catch Mike but did gain a couple car lengths. The other student in the shotgun seat either got religion or questioned his life span, I couldn't exactly hear what he said, but he did mention "God", "Jesus", and then some perverted sex act thing about his mother, don't know what that was all about

What a blast

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

Well glad you enjoyed yourself and feel you got your moneys worth, thats all that really matters. You are right that the car is doing a lot of the driving. I cant tell you how many HPDE I have been at when someone with a vette or BMW goes around the track for a few sessions with the traction control on and thinks they are hot stuff so they turn it off. Within a few laps they are spun out or in the dirt. Traction control is a great tool to help well, a tool on the street from crashing their car, but it does limit your potential on the track and cheets you out of really learning how to handle the car.

Comments on BMW's. My understanding is that with most BMW's the suspension (mechanical components) is good at best, not great. Its great for a performance sedan but compaired to a race car or a true sports car it is out dated. The electronics and traction control are state of the art but remove them and driver beware. BMW wants their buyers to believe that they have the ultimate driving experiance but the truth is that its about compromise between cost, comfort and performance. So in a way it is the ultimate driving experiance but that just does not translat to the best handling car, it means you can be comfortable driving your car fast with starbucks in the cup holder and not worry about spining out and crashing.

Kevo

Sounds like a blast!

CarAndDriver

Kevo

Cut him some slack bro...the guy obviously has an axe to grind with bimmer owners.

We are obviously all a bunch of starbucks drinking ****** who have no idea how to drive our mechanically outdated, overated shitboxes with the DSC off. LOL

Highway8

iTrader: (11)

I have no axe to grind with BMW owners, although I do come across a lot of starbucks brinking ******, but they drive all kinds of vehicles not just BMW's.

Outdated may not have been the best choice of words, what I meant was that BMW keeps using similar suspension from year to year and just tweak little things. Well atleast this is the impression I have gotten from reviews on BMW's I have read.

I never called or implied that a BMW was a shitbox, it is a very good handling car, my point was that with the DSC on you can get away with a lot of things that you cant with it off and you are only cheating yourself if you leave the DSC on.

Everytime I do a HPDE I witness atleast 1 intermediate driver spin out or go off track in their BMW, and every time it is in the 2 or third session. Corvettes do the same thing all the time too. The fact is that when you have torque it is easy to spin the car out if you have not learned the feel of the car. I have talked to several drivers after the fact and everytime the admit they had just turned the DSC off or down.

I have a good friend with a e46 M3 and he admits that anyone could get in his car and drive it fast because the DSC takes a lot of skill out of driving the car.

Jasonawojo

iTrader: (2)

I attended BMW's teen school for a summer vacation a while back, and that was a great experience. So I can only imagine the M school - I hope to do it someday. Glad you enjoyed it!

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

Highway 8 has got it right. The Beemers have and impressive street suspension, but it's active, that is, it adjusts damping based on driver settings and road speed. It is a very impressive system for a factory street car, to be sure, but it is not a race suspension, which would be so brutal at normal highway speeds as to be almost undriveable. However, at the speeds where I found the OEM suspension to have reached it limits, a good race system should just be coming into its own, keeping the tires on the pavement.

When we were driving the M6, the instructors were driving M5s and pulling away from us for two reasons: one, they had the experience, and two, they had their traction control systems turned off. I'm pretty sure the students are in part a test of the traction control abilities BMW designs into the cars, making them more forgiving of indelicate throttle applications, non-linear and non-progressive braking, and steering wheel input more appropriate to a video game than a race car. I have no illusion that my ability to get my rookie *** around that track as fast as I did was because of some latent savante as much as it was a bunch of electronic babysitting from some very impressive engineering. Now, though, I want to get one of these and learn how to do it without all the bells and whistles:

Ariel Atom

Kevo

To be fair, the only extensive experience I have had with a BMW and their DSC system is in my Z4M...and believe me, it's not even close to being as much of a "get away with anything" button as stated.

I don't drive with it on since I want to be the one in control, but on the odd occassion where I forget to turn it off it does little to nothing and only does so in EXTREME circumstances... actually it really only causes the car to drive like crap in the rare instance it tries to intervene.

Maybe this is only in the Z4M DSC incarnation or implementation? I can't say for sure, but it makes sense as the Z4M (particularly the Coupe) is possibly the most pure driver's car BMW has made in recent years. It was certainly a departure from typical BMW offerings and was well known for it's need to be man handled around the track...I can certainly vouch for that.

So perhaps my perspective is a little skewed.

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

If I left the impression that the MDM/DSC is a "get away with anything" button, I've mis-spoken somewhere. I think, though, that wheelspin limitation that keeps me from washing out the rear end of a 540hp/500lb/ft V10 is a saving grace for a rookie like me. How much, I honestly can't say. Active suspension that adjusts rebound and compression as well as preload moment to moment based on road surface, speed, and traction can be a safety net as well. The only way I'll ever tell is to have the same chance again and turn all the active systems off. I'm just saying this: to date, I've never driven a high performance car on a track; my only qualification is years of motorcycle riding and a little knowledge of a few fundamentals of road racing. And still I was able to get around a race track stupid fast. I've either got more ability that I though, or I was getting an electronic helping hand. And honestly: BMW puts total rookies in the seats of these cars and the presses the "GO FAST" button, and in our session, there were only two minor infield excursions all day. I think a lot of that credit goes to the car.

Just sayin'.

Kevo

No worries...you left no such impression zenrx8.

After a bit more digging I found that in fact the DSC as implemented in the Z4M is configured specifically to allow the car's performance characteristics to shine through with only minimal intervention.

Depending on the BMW model and badge the DSC system may be different.

epikeddie

Being that my best friend is a fleet manager over at the largest BMW center in the Western United States (Crevier BMW), I've had my fair share of experience with the BMW Performance Driving School and their M-badged cars including the E90/E92 M3, E60 M5, Z4M, X6M (this was last week since this car is brand new), X5M, and a 135i.

All of those mentioned cars are absolutely phenomenal! I'm contemplating picking up a E90 M3 within the next year as a replacement for my RX8 as well.

When people talk about race suspension, I just have to mention - how "race" do you want to go? Do you want triple adjustable shocks w/ on-board reservoirs like Motons, Penske, JRZ, Ohlins, and etc.? I doubt any of those setups would last more than a month on street surfaces.....that....or....your back would go out first.

It's silly. The M cars handle in a very neutral manner and they are no more "crazy" on the track than a RX8 in the suspension department. I think people are also mistaking that these cars have double / triple the power of a RX8. Do you approach a corner entry at the same speed with heavier weight and gobs of power? No.

The only time I thought a car was built too "race car like" was a Porsche 911 GT3. Otherwise, I think the RX8 has a street suspension and the M cars have a street suspension. Don't get ahead of yourselves guys lol.

Even the S2000 has a remote reservoir on the rear shock versus the RX8. So does that mean their suspension is more "race" than a RX8? I've owned both cars so I know they handle differently on a track, but they post similar lap times around Willow Springs - with a slight advantage tot he S2000 because of weight and power.

Razz1

I can rent a beamer and do it for less...........

zenrx8

iTrader: (4)

Well, it honestly wasn't just renting the car. It was also paying professional drivers for instruction to improve my driving skills and pay a whole day track fees. I figure $1300 is a bargain.

Kevo

$1300 is a steal...the experience is priceless let alone the quality instruction.