AWD vs RWD
08-04-2005, 10:53 AM
#52
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Originally Posted by LittleJohn
I thought the Bugatti Veyron just climed this title.. and I believe it's an AWD..
EDIT: sorry.... why are we comparing cars again?? is someone not happy with their purchase and needs to justify it??
EDIT: sorry.... why are we comparing cars again?? is someone not happy with their purchase and needs to justify it??
we compare cars because it is fun. Every time I drive my 8 I appreciate more and more. no regrets here.
08-04-2005, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Steiner
Whatever dude. I looked on the North American Porsche website. Congrats. You used to sell Porsches and then you bought a Mazda. And it is possible to compare apples to apples. The 1st generation DSM's were all offered in AWD. They obliterated their FWD counterparts in handling and grunt out of the hole. I suppose the superiority of rear wheel drive is the reason why the RWD Nissan Skyline has such a cult following outside of the US, rather than the AWD version.
I absolutely do know what I'm talking about. I've owned and driven high-powered RWD, AWD and (yes even) FWD cars. As technology improves AWD drivetrain loss will continue to decline. If it weren't for the parasitic drivetrain loss associated with the front transaxle this wouldn't even be a debate. Engineers are also improving the reliability of the platform constantly and sooner or later somebody's gonna develop an AWD platform that is either 100% front biased or 100% rear biased depending on the driving conditions. My money is on Nissan or Audi.
As far as AWD being a fad. To an extent I agree, but only as it relates to luxury cars like the Acuta RL, Infiniti G35 and that new Lexus whatever. That kind of demographic needs a bus pass - not a 350hp, 4500lb, ginormous AWD projectile with countless interior gadgets to help further distract the driver. In performance circles it's certainly not a fad. Rather it's the future IMHO.
I absolutely do know what I'm talking about. I've owned and driven high-powered RWD, AWD and (yes even) FWD cars. As technology improves AWD drivetrain loss will continue to decline. If it weren't for the parasitic drivetrain loss associated with the front transaxle this wouldn't even be a debate. Engineers are also improving the reliability of the platform constantly and sooner or later somebody's gonna develop an AWD platform that is either 100% front biased or 100% rear biased depending on the driving conditions. My money is on Nissan or Audi.
As far as AWD being a fad. To an extent I agree, but only as it relates to luxury cars like the Acuta RL, Infiniti G35 and that new Lexus whatever. That kind of demographic needs a bus pass - not a 350hp, 4500lb, ginormous AWD projectile with countless interior gadgets to help further distract the driver. In performance circles it's certainly not a fad. Rather it's the future IMHO.
Actually, I didn't sell Porsches, so no need for congratulations. I'm surprised that you resorted to mocking me for driving a Mazda, considering that this is an RX8 board. However, I still have a BMW, as well and had another one before the RX8.
If you're debating whether the GT2 or GT3 exists, then you have to go to a Porsche Club Driving School, or something. Just 2 weekends ago I was on the track with both a GT2 and GT3, as well as a standard Turbo. The Turbo was slow compared to the others.
Your comparison with the DSMs is obvious. AWD is better than FWD.
Again, I'm not saying that AWD has no advantages. It does. It increases accelerative traction. However, it's disadvantages outweigh it. The additional weight slows everything down and (usually) is detrimental to weight distribution. Also, by applying power to your steering wheels, you inherently reduce their capabilities to steer the car. I've experienced this in a Porsche Carerra4 in autocross. The front end completely washes away when you get on the gas, so you have to wait until the car is almost straight before getting on it.
08-04-2005, 11:07 AM
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That's why AWD cars are teh mad driftxzor cars!1!!5!! They need to be sideways so they don't understeer. Well, so they don't feel like they're understeering.
08-05-2005, 03:11 AM
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What a silly thread, RWD is great AWD is great. AWD that handles great if you live in a bad weather area is better than great.
You guys are all spouting off about these exotic cars that 99.9% of us will never own. Fact is the two best handling cars on the road for around 30k are AWD and the only car that trumps them for under 50k is the Elise (and probably Miata, but they're slow :p) which is about as impractical as street cars come in the US.
You guys are all spouting off about these exotic cars that 99.9% of us will never own. Fact is the two best handling cars on the road for around 30k are AWD and the only car that trumps them for under 50k is the Elise (and probably Miata, but they're slow :p) which is about as impractical as street cars come in the US.
08-05-2005, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
What a silly thread, RWD is great AWD is great. AWD that handles great if you live in a bad weather area is better than great.
You guys are all spouting off about these exotic cars that 99.9% of us will never own. Fact is the two best handling cars on the road for around 30k are AWD and the only car that trumps them for under 50k is the Elise (and probably Miata, but they're slow :p) which is about as impractical as street cars come in the US.
You guys are all spouting off about these exotic cars that 99.9% of us will never own. Fact is the two best handling cars on the road for around 30k are AWD and the only car that trumps them for under 50k is the Elise (and probably Miata, but they're slow :p) which is about as impractical as street cars come in the US.
No doubt this thread is silly. Then again, many are that way. I can only speak in saying that the S2K handles better then STI and RX8, but I won't speak for EVO vs S2K, as it's a step above the STI, and I haven't owned or driven one. Comparing STI vs RX8 in handling, I can't actually tell you, because it's simply too close to call. Like the Miata, the S2K is very impractical as a street car. The Elise takes the cake as the most impractical car you can buy for under $50k.
08-05-2005, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
What a silly thread, RWD is great AWD is great. AWD that handles great if you live in a bad weather area is better than great.
You guys are all spouting off about these exotic cars that 99.9% of us will never own. Fact is the two best handling cars on the road for around 30k are AWD and the only car that trumps them for under 50k is the Elise (and probably Miata, but they're slow :p) which is about as impractical as street cars come in the US.
You guys are all spouting off about these exotic cars that 99.9% of us will never own. Fact is the two best handling cars on the road for around 30k are AWD and the only car that trumps them for under 50k is the Elise (and probably Miata, but they're slow :p) which is about as impractical as street cars come in the US.
of course it's silly, what else do you expect from a hijack thread!
BTW RWD>AWD :p
08-05-2005, 11:12 AM
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I hope we can all agree that AWD is superior to FWD and RWD in any situation regarding traction. With that said, I can't believe that we are really arguing over which is better. Traction is a fundamental aspect of any kind of racing. If you take two cars that are identical but one car is on R compound tires and the other is not...which do you think will win around a track?
AWD is superior. Make no doubt about it. Today's more modern AWD systems are only getting better. For example the G35x is full time RWD until slip is detected. This gives it the low drivetrain loss of RWD and the traction advantages of AWD. The system will even allow you to step the rear out a bit in a corner. The EVO and STi have the ability to change the torque bias front and rear and Honda's new SH-AWD takes that one step further and can vary the torque between the left and right tires.
This arguement is like arguing which is better a DSG or manual tranny. I prefer a manual but I have no illusion that I can shift better or faster than a DSG. Sports car fans prefer RWD (mostly) because of the control and skill required but make no mistake, an AWD car...even if a bit heavier, will be faster and easier to drive around a course.
A good example is the EVO FQ-400 or regular EVO VIII and it's time relative to other exotics on Top Gear. The EVO only has 400 hp but is able to keep up with RWD exotics that have 480+hp and a far superior chasises.
http://www.topgear.com/content/tgonb...times/thestig/
AWD is superior. Make no doubt about it. Today's more modern AWD systems are only getting better. For example the G35x is full time RWD until slip is detected. This gives it the low drivetrain loss of RWD and the traction advantages of AWD. The system will even allow you to step the rear out a bit in a corner. The EVO and STi have the ability to change the torque bias front and rear and Honda's new SH-AWD takes that one step further and can vary the torque between the left and right tires.
This arguement is like arguing which is better a DSG or manual tranny. I prefer a manual but I have no illusion that I can shift better or faster than a DSG. Sports car fans prefer RWD (mostly) because of the control and skill required but make no mistake, an AWD car...even if a bit heavier, will be faster and easier to drive around a course.
A good example is the EVO FQ-400 or regular EVO VIII and it's time relative to other exotics on Top Gear. The EVO only has 400 hp but is able to keep up with RWD exotics that have 480+hp and a far superior chasises.
http://www.topgear.com/content/tgonb...times/thestig/
08-05-2005, 02:24 PM
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What would you guys think if Mazda slapped an AWD platform on the (whenever the hell it will finally get here) Mazdaspeed 8? I'd say the odds of hell freezing over are better, but with the technology sharing that Ford and Mazda are doing, and cars like the AWD Ford 500, AWD Ford Focus RS being developed in Europe, and the AWD Mazdaspeed 6...there's enough in the parts bin to at least debate the exploration of the idea.
08-05-2005, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Steiner
What would you guys think if Mazda slapped an AWD platform on the (whenever the hell it will finally get here) Mazdaspeed 8? I'd say the odds of hell freezing over are better, but with the technology sharing that Ford and Mazda are doing, and cars like the AWD Ford 500, AWD Ford Focus RS being developed in Europe, and the AWD Mazdaspeed 6...there's enough in the parts bin to at least debate the exploration of the idea.
08-05-2005, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Steiner
What would you guys think if Mazda slapped an AWD platform on the (whenever the hell it will finally get here) Mazdaspeed 8? I'd say the odds of hell freezing over are better, but with the technology sharing that Ford and Mazda are doing, and cars like the AWD Ford 500, AWD Ford Focus RS being developed in Europe, and the AWD Mazdaspeed 6...there's enough in the parts bin to at least debate the exploration of the idea.
Though if the MS8 had it, I might not have a choice. Stupid rotary addiction.
08-05-2005, 02:54 PM
#64
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FWD on the limit = Understeer
AWD on the limit = Understeer
RWD on the limit = Oversteer
-------------------------------------
Ill take my chaces and control my cars *** rather than her FACE.
AWD on the limit = Understeer
RWD on the limit = Oversteer
-------------------------------------
Ill take my chaces and control my cars *** rather than her FACE.
08-05-2005, 03:29 PM
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Rhawb-
Wow, my asinine little comment sparked an entire thread...I'm honored.
The Evo is "not exciting"...I'll just leave that idiotic comment alone. Next time, drive a car before you make assumptions about it. An Evo's full boost hits much harder than a Rex's kick...
The Eclipse may be a fat pig, but its still going to hang right with your RX8, so I don't know how you'll take that...just wait and see...
I'll agree with the statement that many Mitsu dealers are a-holes, but I've encountered much worse at Acura, Nissan, and BMW dealerships...
*Oh, RWD is a better platform for a true sports car, but AWD is obviously better for a rally car, which is what the Evo and Wrx are based off of...
Wow, my asinine little comment sparked an entire thread...I'm honored.
The Evo is "not exciting"...I'll just leave that idiotic comment alone. Next time, drive a car before you make assumptions about it. An Evo's full boost hits much harder than a Rex's kick...
The Eclipse may be a fat pig, but its still going to hang right with your RX8, so I don't know how you'll take that...just wait and see...
I'll agree with the statement that many Mitsu dealers are a-holes, but I've encountered much worse at Acura, Nissan, and BMW dealerships...
*Oh, RWD is a better platform for a true sports car, but AWD is obviously better for a rally car, which is what the Evo and Wrx are based off of...
Last edited by LNWLF; 08-05-2005 at 03:53 PM.
08-05-2005, 03:55 PM
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Well, the Evo might be fast and everything, but for $30k, I feel that my money is better spent elsewhere.
As for the Eclipse, sure it might be a quick car, but what use is owning a fat, big engined, FWD coupe? It's okay at a few things, very good at nothing. Again, money better spent elsewhere.
As for the rest, I agree.
As for the Eclipse, sure it might be a quick car, but what use is owning a fat, big engined, FWD coupe? It's okay at a few things, very good at nothing. Again, money better spent elsewhere.
As for the rest, I agree.
08-05-2005, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Rhawb
Well, the Evo might be fast and everything, but for $30k, I feel that my money is better spent elsewhere....
If you're more into leather and climate control you can get a Acura TSX, but now you've just come full circle since that car is a heavy FWD pig too.
08-05-2005, 04:52 PM
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Theoretically, AWD should be faster. But in the real world, the added weight and drivetrain losses slow it down. If the two drivetrains weighed the same amount, the system that used all four wheels to accelerate would be faster than the one that only used two. When it comes to cornering, RWD would be faster because of the lack of understeer. Now imagine an AWD system that changes how the power is distributed to go as fast as possible in every situation. They already have systems that are pretty close to doing this. Now if they could just get the weight down and minimize the drivetrain losses.... As far as which car is more fun to drive, that's up to the individual.
08-05-2005, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by LNWLF
Rhawb-
Wow, my asinine little comment sparked an entire thread...I'm honored.
The Evo is "not exciting"...I'll just leave that idiotic comment alone. Next time, drive a car before you make assumptions about it. An Evo's full boost hits much harder than a Rex's kick...
The Eclipse may be a fat pig, but its still going to hang right with your RX8, so I don't know how you'll take that...just wait and see...
I'll agree with the statement that many Mitsu dealers are a-holes, but I've encountered much worse at Acura, Nissan, and BMW dealerships...
*Oh, RWD is a better platform for a true sports car, but AWD is obviously better for a rally car, which is what the Evo and Wrx are based off of...
Wow, my asinine little comment sparked an entire thread...I'm honored.
The Evo is "not exciting"...I'll just leave that idiotic comment alone. Next time, drive a car before you make assumptions about it. An Evo's full boost hits much harder than a Rex's kick...
The Eclipse may be a fat pig, but its still going to hang right with your RX8, so I don't know how you'll take that...just wait and see...
I'll agree with the statement that many Mitsu dealers are a-holes, but I've encountered much worse at Acura, Nissan, and BMW dealerships...
*Oh, RWD is a better platform for a true sports car, but AWD is obviously better for a rally car, which is what the Evo and Wrx are based off of...
08-05-2005, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Steiner
You mean on like a home mortgage or a different kind of car? If it's the former I reluctantly agree with you, but if it's the latter I'd like to know which car you're thinking of. The Evo is one of the most balanced cars on the planet...and at $30k it's affordable...and has 4 doors, a trunk, gets 25 MPG, comes with a 10yr/100k mile warranty, and free schedules maintenance for the first 3 years.
If you're more into leather and climate control you can get a Acura TSX, but now you've just come full circle since that car is a heavy FWD pig too.
If you're more into leather and climate control you can get a Acura TSX, but now you've just come full circle since that car is a heavy FWD pig too.
08-07-2005, 03:31 AM
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I 'm only a fan of AWD because I live where there's harsh winter weather. Without that, I'd never give it a second look. I do respect those AWD enthusiasts who use it for performance, just as I do RX8 owners who put snow tires on RWD to drive in snow. With that said, I still have trouble understanding those choices.
08-07-2005, 07:26 AM
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Don't worry Steiner, I got your back.
Firstly Mazda did try the AWD once before with their AWD Mazda 323, namely the GTR (no relations to the Skyline). Unfortunately compared to the cars in its category, it was also really slow (0-100kmh in 7 or so seconds). Nissan GTiR was a 5 second car, Evos and Wrxes were practically dominating everybody else for decades.
To answer Darkmaz8's question of why the fastest car in the world is a RWD, that's just a matter of choice really by certain car companies.
The fastest Japanese car right now is an AWD (Skyline R34 GTR Nismo version).
Porsche once held the record of the fastest car in the world with their 959, an AWD (it was powered by a 450 HP engine producing a 0-60 of 3.6 seconds and top speed almost reaching 200 MPH).
An NSX-R would not eat up a Lamboghini on any track, and please do not use Best Motoring for reference as the european cars were privately owned and the drivers could not push them as much as they could compared with the Japanese cars. Also, the better drivers are always driving Hondas to even up the competition.
I hate FWD as much as I hate autos, so I'm happy with either RWD or AWD. I fine RWD fun no doubt, but I have to work a lot harder than if I was driving an AWD. My GTR is RWD most of the time, but I have the safety of the Attessa system which kicks in when the car feels that it needs more traction. That is case with several AWD cars on the market today, they are not full time all wheel drive machines, but smart cars that transfers power to either front or rear wheels depending on the circumstances. The evo would even be powered by one wheel if it has to.
"Like you said, someone with less skill can take an AWD car and look like a pro."
Or how about a pro take an AWD car and become even better? A fool could be in the seat of a Carrera GT and can still lose to an RX8. Its always about the drivers and how much they can maximise their cars' potentials.
Like Steiner said, AWD was banned from a lot of competition because they were far superior around the track. Cars like the GTRs were banned from competing against V8 cars in Australian competition because they just wiped everybody off the circuit. Same case in Japan where it won every race in its debut!
RX8 a handler? Maybe if you're compaing a minivan, but if it loses to a Honda Integra Type R (which is incidently a FWD) then what is the point of this discussion?
Firstly Mazda did try the AWD once before with their AWD Mazda 323, namely the GTR (no relations to the Skyline). Unfortunately compared to the cars in its category, it was also really slow (0-100kmh in 7 or so seconds). Nissan GTiR was a 5 second car, Evos and Wrxes were practically dominating everybody else for decades.
To answer Darkmaz8's question of why the fastest car in the world is a RWD, that's just a matter of choice really by certain car companies.
The fastest Japanese car right now is an AWD (Skyline R34 GTR Nismo version).
Porsche once held the record of the fastest car in the world with their 959, an AWD (it was powered by a 450 HP engine producing a 0-60 of 3.6 seconds and top speed almost reaching 200 MPH).
An NSX-R would not eat up a Lamboghini on any track, and please do not use Best Motoring for reference as the european cars were privately owned and the drivers could not push them as much as they could compared with the Japanese cars. Also, the better drivers are always driving Hondas to even up the competition.
I hate FWD as much as I hate autos, so I'm happy with either RWD or AWD. I fine RWD fun no doubt, but I have to work a lot harder than if I was driving an AWD. My GTR is RWD most of the time, but I have the safety of the Attessa system which kicks in when the car feels that it needs more traction. That is case with several AWD cars on the market today, they are not full time all wheel drive machines, but smart cars that transfers power to either front or rear wheels depending on the circumstances. The evo would even be powered by one wheel if it has to.
"Like you said, someone with less skill can take an AWD car and look like a pro."
Or how about a pro take an AWD car and become even better? A fool could be in the seat of a Carrera GT and can still lose to an RX8. Its always about the drivers and how much they can maximise their cars' potentials.
Like Steiner said, AWD was banned from a lot of competition because they were far superior around the track. Cars like the GTRs were banned from competing against V8 cars in Australian competition because they just wiped everybody off the circuit. Same case in Japan where it won every race in its debut!
RX8 a handler? Maybe if you're compaing a minivan, but if it loses to a Honda Integra Type R (which is incidently a FWD) then what is the point of this discussion?
08-08-2005, 09:54 AM
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I agree with Shiri a smart AWD system like ATTEZZA can combine the best of both worlds. BTW the integra type R, incidentaly a FWD not only beat the RX8, it also beat the wrx too, incidentaly an AWD :p.