AltecLansing

http://www.motoringfile.com/2004/04/...he_us#comments

geez, actually i think the BMW1 is pretty good. how's the sales of Mazda3 so far?

flatso

i think a lot of people think a hatchback is the economy version of the sedan. It's just an incorrect perception. I see more Mazda 3 hatches then sedans on the road though even Mazda forecasts more sedans being sold if I remember my Car and Driver article correctly. On another note the Mazda 6 hatch is nice I saw it at the car show.

KC_Prelude

I think hatches look stupid in general but they can be pulled off well sometimes (like say the r32 golf). We are too used to hatchback = festiva = cheap piece of crap.

AltecLansing

actually the Golf is a good example of hatch pack... obtw, Toyota's Matrix is a hatchback or SUV or wagon?

PUR NRG

Consider the source. BMW sold the 318ti hatchback in the states and did poorly compared to the 325. Forgetting the 318ti just looked plain ugly you can see why they drew that opinion.
________
BIG DICK VID

flatso

actually BMW made arguably the ugliest hatch ever designed, the Z3 Coupe, so maybe they are scared to sell another because that one.

zoom44

mazda seems to have the same mentallity and blew it in the US when it comes to the 6 hatch in my opinion. in other countries the 6 hatch and wagon went on sale at the same time as the sedan version but in the US the sedan has been out for over a year without the hatch. during the launch of the 6 they went out of their way to talk up the hatch and how much space it had and how cool the karukiri folding rear seats used in it and the wagon are and on and on. but then no hatch! they say it was because of limits in manufacturing but it was a really stupid move. i still think that once the hatch 6 is on the road it will out sell the sedan version. if bmw is scared there must be something more behind it than "we think americans dont like hatchbacks."

zthang

That's weird, I think the M Coupe is one of the sexiest cars out there.

Len

A few years ago hatchbacks almost disappeared from the marked in North America. I don't think it was because they forgot how to make them.

flatso

are we talking about the same car? This is the one I mean

bubble

The Z3 coupe is hotness. The American market is hella different than other countries. Americans perfer heavy short wide cars over slim cars. Look at Pontiacs. I don't think they would sell well in other countries.

wakeech

they try to sell it as a "cross over", but no it's a short-ended wagon (coming from a passenger of 3 family wagons, this being the third).

wakeech

they cannot offer their usual level of opulence and refinement at a price that would make the 1 Series worth it, not to mention avoid making the car a negative impact on their brand image (thus impacting their sales... you don't see an econobox Lexus, do you??).

basically, i dunno if there would be a market for it. it would be an econobox that either no one could afford (which wouldn't make profits), no one nere wants an ultra-small luxury car that's good on gas and cheap on insurance, and if they took the quality down a notch and sold something lower than their Cooper Mini it'd be bad for the brand image.

zthang

That's exactly the car I'm talking about...others may not think it looks good, and thats fine. But for me, it's gorgeous.

Lawerence

yes and no.
That is the ///M COUPE, he was talking about the ///M ROADSTER.
Pretty much same thing, except convertable.

Senseny

Hatches have traditionally sold much better in Europe than here. VW sold many more Golfs/Rabbits worldwide than Jettas, but in the US they sold more Jettas. Civics also provide a good example of this. The point made about Americans seeing hatches as "economy" and sedans as more "luxorious" is a good one, even when the car is essentially the same.

zthang

Whoops...made a mistake there, I really was talking about the M Coupe...I edited it and changed it.

RX8-TX

Dare not say those words.....

wakeech

i'm with flatso... it's really ugly.

ArvinC

...I used to participate in BMW's Drive for The Cure, which raised money for the Susan B. Koman Breast Cancer fund. They were events very similar in nature to Mazda's Rev-It-Up (I'm gonna' try my hardest at the DC event May 2nd) except you didn't win anything...just had a performance driving class and a bunch of timed laps and you could test-drive the entire BMW range all day. Anyway...

I was one of the first "public" drivers of the M-Coupe on the eastcoast. It was at the New York even, right outside the Nassau Coliseum I believe it's called. Man, that car was one WICKED ride! It was just so twitchy and direct...it really felt like it was overpowered for its chassis. In the closed course, I couldn't apply any throttle mid-corner for fear of breaking that back end loose. But on exit and down the straight, that torque never ended. Later on, we learned that the TC had been switched off by the techs because it was faulting during check-up. But BMW wanted people to drive it anyway, since it was new and they wanted to get some reactions...I know at least seven people placed orders! (My cousin, who worked for Open Road BMW in Jersey, was there as a dealership rep.) At the time, many thought it was BMW's answer to the 911.

In a way, our 8's are similar to that M-Coupe. The cars' profile and shape share a lot. It was a design that was really much more impressive and beautiful in real life than on paper. It was a lot more practical than it appeared. And it was direct and purposeful like a sports car should be.

I really liked that car and wished I could've bought one...have to think some of that had a play into why I got so enamored with the 8.

Arvin

flatso

Well I have a Z3 convertible and agree the Coupe was a powerful beast and more rigid and practical then my car but I do not think it looks anything like the 8 and I actually think it looks worse in person. It just looked goofy to me and sales of the Coupe were poor so I am thinking lots of people didn't like this shape very much either.

ArvinC

...original topic of conversation: I really think it's what some posters here have said, many Americans view hatches as a "cheap" version of that model. And they are priced that way. I remember going into a Honda dealership with my uncle back in the 80's and hearing him lament on why anyone would pay more money for the Civic Si (arguably THE pocket-rocket of that time) when they could have the 4-door Civic. Nevermind that the Si had a "hotter" engine and sportier suspension. Nope, it was all about the packaging.

When you look back on it, America really lost out on the hatchback. I remember Saabs and Citroens that were so very cool 'cause although they drove and were shaped liked a fine 4-door luxuary-sport sedan, you could open the enitre back up and fold the seats down. Man, people were holding sheets of plywood in the back of those things! Right now, I'm in love with the Mazda 6 5-door...it reminds me the most of those Saab sedan/hatchbacks of old! Great design, great looking and incredibly practical.

I also think that we're not a country who values the "savings" of a hatchback. We have lots of parking (relatively), wider roads and SUV's. In Europe and Asia, where space, infrastructure and regulations put clamps on size, hatches are an absolute neccessity.

Arvin

zthang

For once, me and Tx agree. :D

pelucidor

I had one of those Saab sedans of old (900i) - nice car with amazing seats. And a few weekends ago at the Mazda Rev-It-Up I had a chance to carefuly compare the three iterations of the Mazda 6 - the sedan, hatchback and wagon. The 5 door hatchback was by far the best looking and almost as practical as the wagon. Can the RX-8 wagon be a possibility?





Where is Windahdah when you need him to chime in...