Truss

Disclaimer: I know that the GTO vs. RX-8 issue has been debated at length. I've read the old threads and I didn't start this one to reignite the debate (or the flame wars). I simply want to know people's opinions of this news.

Pontiac has announced that the 2005 GTO will have the 400hp LS2 engine standard, as well as revised styling, dual/dual exit exhausts, and bigger brakes. I think that these changes make the GTO a very compelling choice in the marketplace (assuming price doesn't skyrocket). It also puts some distance between it and Ford's 2005 Mustang GT (300hp), but I wonder what this means for the C6 Vette. I realize the GTO is heavier and less sophisticated, but it's also around $18,000 cheaper, which is a lot.

In muscle car land, I think the GTO with these upgrades will easily hold its own against the Stang and Dodge's upoming Hemi Charger (which will probably be limited to a lame *** automatic, anyway). The fact that it's a Holden only, for me, adds to the appeal. Unfortunately, 2004 GTO sales have been abysmal. The current car is scheduled to die after 2006, to be replaced in 2007 with a car that shares a platform with Chevy's Camaro replacement. Ugh. It appears that now may be the time to purchase a truly original, compelling car before GM screws it up again.

T.

cgrx

I heart gas

Doctorr

That's not a GTO, the GTO is the new muscle car from GM!

That's the 2005 Grand-Am.....

er, oops! sorry, my mistake!
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doc

MTLbroker

Curb weight > 3900 lbs.
lateral acceleration = 0.84g
looks like a Pontiac GrandPrix
'nuff said

-8-

it still looks like a Chevy Cavalier. I don't care what the do to "revise" the styling...there is nothing pretty about Pontiacs.

Hornet

I did a little research and from what I found this really doesn't mean very much within GM. It may mean more to Ford and/or Daimler-Chrysler. The GTO as it is now has very similar power numbers to the current Vette. They both have 350hp but there is a slight difference in torque. What is probably of more concern around GM is to make the next Z06 exclusive (it's supposed to have 500hp to be more of a head to head competitor with the likes of the Viper). This decision probably is more of a financial decision than it is a decision based on competition. GM probably is doing the normal thing that car manufacturers do by sharing the engine across multiple platforms instead of trying to continue production of the 5.7l. If the Firebird and Camaro were still in production you would probably see the same or similar news.

shelleys_man_06

Uh oh . I can't wait to see what happens in a couple of years if this horsepower war continues . It feels like 1993 all over again. I can just hear Snoop Dogg's Doggystyle in the background :D BOW WOW WOW :D. The GTO fad has come and gone. I haven't seen a Goat in Houston in over three months. I hope these low-tech cars go out of business. By low-tech, I'm talking about companies like GM rushing these cars out into the American market without putting any time and/or effort into properly "engineering" them. I like the Japanese perspective. They take their time when it comes to building cars from the ground up. Stop me before the xenocentrism kicks in . Remember the Z concept from 2000, and the RX-01 from 1995? Nissan had really spent some time making a car that would stand out, especially on the ugly POS-ridden roads of the United States. Mazda had it's sights on improving on the 220 hp (flame me if I'm wrong) engine that eventually became the RENESIS since 1995. They knew the RX-7's days were numbered since its demise since that year. It feels good for both Nissan and Mazda to be back in the game . As for Chevrolet, the best thing they ever did to any sports car was kill off the Corvette in the early 80's for development of the C4. The one year abscence gave GM much time to start from scratch. I'm sure they were even planning on the C5 at the same time. I remember the CERVIII concept, which came out in the late 80's. Maybe that might help me prove my point about GM's Corvette product planning. I think the Big Three are worrying about what everyone else is doing. They're hastily putting together cars from either the parts bin or taking them from overseas to sell here, in the United States. That's not what I call product planning. Ford should've killed off the Mustang so they can further develop it. What do they do instead? They place a "vintage look" body onto a Lincoln chassis. I guess smaller, more powerful engines, more modern suspensions, and innovative design weren't on the agenda. I guess they were replaced by building more SUVs . I think these guys need to slow down. Designing cars take time, and if it takes killing off the current model for a few years and dumping tons of money into the right places, then maybe I would wait for a good American sports car. GM got lucky with its Pontiac Solstice, now let's see what is going to happen in a few years .

Truss

Not properly engineering the GTO? Where does that come from? The Monaro on which it's based has been sold in Australia for YEARS and has steadily evolved just like any other car. It is certainly properly engineered. In fact, part of the reason why the car is so heavy is because it's built like a tank. Even GTO owners wish it were lighter, but at least it is reliable and its weight doesn't hamper its performance. This may not be advanced engineering, but it is certainly "proper."

And why do you call the GTO low tech? It gets better gas mileage and makes more HP than the RX-8. It has a fully independent suspension, limited slip diff in the rear, and good brakes. What's low tech about it? The fact that it's OHV? So what? It works better than Ford's DOHC nonsense, which needs a supercharger to produce similar HP numbers.

The GTO is a different answer to the performance question, but people seriously underestimate it when they imply that it shares anything in common with Pontiacs that have come before. The Monaro nameplate has a proud performance heritage in Australia. We're lucky to be getting this car.

T.

shelleys_man_06

I had a good retort, but it'll have to wait til later today. I have a crib sheet to make . Good night!!

StealthTL

iTrader: (1)

Now let's not forget that the GTO is really a Monaro, which was a chassis that has been sold here once before, as the imported Opel they named the Cadillac Catera.......

This was the worst car ever sold in the U.S.

Don't take my word for it - Consumer Reports has the reliability figures for all to see, but even they only have the 'hardware' indictments, the daily driver could tell you the sad story of LIVING with a Catera.....

Take Jean Jennings, twenty year staffer on the 'Car & Driver' staffs' comments that "she was minding her own business on the freeway, when it became necessary to drive with one hand, using the other to hold up the headliner, which had collapsed onto the seatbacks." Her remarks that this was definitely a first for her have to be read in person....

This is just one more iteration of GM's desperation - shove the Corvette motor in a Grand Am - see if it sells!

Won't be long before we see the Viper motor in a Neon.....too late? They are probably working on it as I type.......

S

Jedith

Hey, we have a 2000 catera, and its really nice. Tho my 8 is nicer :D

TheColonel

Hold up, why do I see Grand AM and GTO? Which one are we talking about here?

Truss

We're talking about the GTO, which is not the same car (although it is the same basic chassis architecture) as the Catera. The two cars do not share a headliner.

People are rather thick with the hyperbole on this subject. The Monaro has a proud racing heritage in Australia. And unlike NASCAR, they actually race a race-prepped version of the street car. Everyone admits it's a little on the portly side, but 400hp more than makes up for the excess weight. The car is also stable at high speeds, easy to control in the corners, and is an outstanding daily driver. And, regardless of GM's mistakes with the Catera, Monaros have an outstanding reputation for reliability.

T.

PS: The Catera was the worst car ever sold in America??

Boozehound

Worst car sold in America? The catera? Now that's some funny stuff.

A nominee (and by no means does this mean this was the WORST ever): Ford Pinto. Nothing like getting rear ended at 30 or below, having your doors permanently sealed, and your gas tank bursting into flames. Great car...

Truss

Or the Cadillac Cimarron:





T.

Lawerence

You remember alot for being so young. I wish i had that kind of memmory.

Well truss already explained how these cars are actually very well engineered, so im not going to hit on that.

This is funny. If anything Nissan (infiniti) is the worst of them all...using the same VQ engine (and platform) in MOST all thier cars, even their flagship sports car.

Now mazda did take its time with the RX8 and it shows alot. I do believe they are going to use thier platform in upcoming cars as well.
But if you look at the Mazda 3, its a next generation ford focus...just different body and interior, probably stiffer springs.

Every company now is starting to (if they havent already) use platform sharing. And most all of the japanese companies already do. So its hardly "from the ground up" on most cars.

You were born in February 29, 1984, how can you remember the curve III concept, it came out in 85 or 86? lol

Like I said before every japanese company does this, so why critisize the americans for doing the exact same thing.
If anything this should make cars more reliable and easier to work on.
Let me just name off some companies that do this for you:
Honda/Acura
Toyota/Lexus
Nissan/infiniti
Mazda
Ford
the list goes on and on and on. All of these companies use the same platform/engine in multiple cars....
wrong, most engines in most cars (japanese included) are getting bigger in displacement and actually weigh less because of the materials. The GTO suspension is just as modern as any japanese car (its not the only one BTW).
They have trucks that get better gas mileage than your RX8...that is progress IMO.

I think you are very bias and it makes me sad as a car enthusiast.
America has some great sports cars.

Lets see,
cheers.

RX8_Buckeye

Well said Lawerence. A lot of unfounded bashing of the American domestics going on here.

shelleys_man_06: your comment about the new Mustang is way off base. In terms of a new vehicle program, there are very few that are larger in scale. This is an all-new platform (only about 50% of componentry is shared with DEW98, which happens to be an excellent NEW platform btw), with an all-new engine (4.6L SOHC 3V aluminum V8), being assembled in a new location. It doesn't get much more complex than this, and it was planned VERY carefully.

KC_Prelude

Knowing ford they will use this new mustang platform for 25 years like they did with the fox body so I would hope that they put a little effort into it. I mean its only their most recognizable icon in their entire history.

shelleys_man_06

Well Lawerence, you make a strong point. Am I biased? Yes. There's no doubt about it. I do have a soft spot for classic American musclecars, and of course the Corvette, but I'm not talking about those cars, I'm talking about the GTO. When I said engineered, please note that I put "quotation" marks over it, indicating it wasn't to be taken literally. The GTO/slightly modified Holden Monaro uses technology that was considered high-tech in 1997. Here, let's put this formula together:

346 CI LS1+4-Wheel Independent Suspension+LSD+Two fat chicks=GTO=1997 C5 Corvette with two fat chicks as a ballast.

I know I'm gonna be flamed here, but that's not my concern. I just don't understand why GM couldn't just design a GTO from the ground up in the first place. I remember the 2003 Houston Auto Show (rednecks and ricers everywhere ), and I asked the Pontiac sales-rep about why GM decided to use the Holden Monaro instead of designing from the ground up. He didn't have an answer. Slightly peeved, he told me to be quiet, and proceeded to shoot the breeze about how the Goat was a completely new car. True story. He mislead the people, and that's what ticked me off. In my opinion, if Pontiac wanted to sell a GTO, I would've used the Holden HSV, Australia's answer to the BNR34. Oh yeah, they differ in price and performance, and I would've used it to take away some of the Corvette sales. Corvette owners are going to hate me. I'll lick a 12V battery, because I too, am in love with the ol' Vette. I'm just saying that GM should not have used the Monaro as the basis for bringing its famed Goat back. What would have been funny is if they had used that funny truck version instead . Ha ha ha!! It's too late. GM is designing a new GTO from the ground up, so I will give them exactly 1.00 clap. Seriosuly, I think GM's strategy was to give people an idea of what it would be like to have a musclecar again (the F-body has been dead. Did anyone notice?). The point is, the Pontiac GTO (the current one) is really awful. I mean, come on Pontiac. It may have the bells and whistles of any legitimate sports car, but its sheer weight kills off most off the fun; having 350, or I guess, 400 hp isn't going to take away its M1-type weight. Weight doesn't mean everything, of course, but it affects how the car behaves. I've heard this car is pretty neutral on the track, so I'll give it some credit. However, the GTO once again epitomizes straight-line performance, instead of overall balance. It's another F-body if you ask me. Maybe the car's designers had something else in mind. I wish I knew. Well, this is the United States, land of straight lines. It's not like the GTO sales are going to affect the RX-8's in any direct way. If selling sheer, straight-line power and ungodly torque will help you sleep at night, then I'll praise you Pontiac. Please Pontiac, for the love of God, make this new Goat right . But for me, the GTO is a disappointment to the name it carries . I will defend to the death the right for you guys to say anything against me .

shelleys_man_06

It is hard to find a balance when you know you're one-sided.

BaronVonBigmeat

I don't think the GTO was really aimed at the same market as the RX-8, 350Z, etc. It's more of a luxury cruiser or something. GM's biggest mistake (IMO) is once again cranking out a car with boring, "play it safe" styling which is incrementally changed from previous models. GM trucks, the corvette, the last two generations of F-body...notice how they all look more or less the same for the last 15+ years. They need to turn their stylists loose, and put on some more aggressive bumpers ASAP if they want to revive GTO sales. No one wants to pay $33,000 for a car that looks exactly like any other Pontiac. The potential of the Holden platform is there, but the culture at a corporate goliath like GM is going to play it safe and do design-by-comittee w/ the styling I'm afraid.

As far as the Mustang goes...if it's sharing a platform with Lincoln from now on, that means it will be getting updates every 4~5 years from now on instead of every couple of decades, which is a GOOD thing. I really don't think you'll see a '05 Mustang and think, "Hmm, was that the new Lincoln?". I'm really interested in seeing the '06 Cobra though. Affordable live axle for GT and IRS for the Cobra is an interesting concept, maybe they can make it more effective on the new platform.

babylou

BMW gets props for doing just as you say GM should get spanked for. That is until BMW Banglefied the new generation 7,5 and Z.

Baller

Look you guys, even if the GTO had 450 HP it would still be a GM product......JUNK.

scorp76

There's nothing wrong with GTO's exterior (and certainly not the interior, which is the best I've ever seen on a GM car). It's conservative, yes, but that's not always a bad thing.

They could have went Nissan route, and made something hideous that screams for attention, but they played it safe and it paid off, imo.

Truss

So it's too heavy and the styling is bland. But it's very fast and has neutral handling. That doesn't sound so bad. Show me another 400hp car for under $35k.

Besides, it's not that heavy. A 911 Turbo Tiptronic has a curb weight of 3,594lbs. The GTO's is 3,770. Part of the Vette's low weight comes down to its fiberglass body, which is expensive and expensive to repair.

T.