ep3

I'm even more worried now after having found this on the official Mazda Rx-8 website...

"The RENESIS power-train will be available in two variations: the High Power specification (177kW (231PS) @8200rpm with a 9000 rpm limit) and the Standard Power unit (141kW(192PS)@7000rpm with a 7500 rpm limit) for regular driving but with superb drivability. Click here to see the Mazda RX-8 Technical Specifications."

However, ALL my OFFICIAL Mazda documents (i.e. brochures, order confirmation etc...) quote higher figures. Looking at those documents the quoted power figures read (from highest to lowest...

250hp
250ps
240hp
240ps

Something really stinks here, so, I ust spoke to mazda UK and am now fuming with anger, here's the highlights of the conversation...

Me: Hello, I've just read on Mazda's website that the high power RX8 produces 231ps or just under 230hp.
Them: That's right.
Me: But my original OFFICIAL mazda documents say 250hp.
Them: Yes, Mazda have revised the power downwards from 240ps to 231ps.

[...partial rant at this point...back on track now...]

Me: But my original documents say 250hp not 240ps or 231ps.
Them: I don't know about that, but ALL PEOPLE WHO PRE-ORDERED were sent a letter saying the power had been revised downwards.
Me: I wasn't and I haven't heard of anyone else who has.
Them: Everyone was sent a letter.
Me: Except me?
Them: Would you like me to send you one now?

[...another rant...]

Me: Can I speak to someone in technical.
Them: No, they don't speak to customers.
Me: So why have the figures been revised downwards?
Them: Mazda decided the insurance group for would be too high and decided to bring the power down so it could make group 16.
Me: What!!!!!!

[...final rant...slams receiver down...storms off...]

Ciaran.

cw007

mate, this has been known for sometime now.

Mazda are not the best at the PR stuff everyone here knows that. We have even sent them a collective letter stating that there PR is worse than Ratners Jewellers.

However the reason it was reduced had nothing to do with insurance groups (not directly) but to the euro2004 emissions.

The original documentation never stated it was 250. it was always 240. (i ordered mine back in February - back then it was 240) it was dropped to 231ps around about 6 weeks ago. The car would fail euro 4 emission standards which is the main reason they dropped it down.


I could be wrong on but thats how i interpeted the threads and discussions here.

Wing

More proof mazda is marketing this car at SEDAN buyers not sports car buyers. If the insurance is too high Sedan buyers won't consider it.

As it is now, most people don't know what this car is, don't know it has 4 doors, don't know it rides like a sedan and don't know it's affordable.

Heck, I have NEVER seen an ad for it, at least not in Canada!

morganrogers

As detailed in many many threads....

250ps - USA and Japan
240ps - Original European power. (due to emissions rulings)
231ps - Actual Europe power due to Euro4 emissions regs.

There is a feeling that you may well be able to get back the 'missing' hp at a later date with ecu changes etc...

So there you have it - we are 231ps , everyone else is 250ps.

The only actual thing you posted that is new is 'brought power down for insurance reasons'. Dont think this is the case.....

RobDickinson

This is ages old.

UK/Europe were NEVER getting the 250ps car.

We were supposed to get a 240ps car but Mazda decided to make the car comply with Euro Stage 4 emmisions, due in in 2005, rather than release a 240ps and then have to reduce it to 231ps.

So we get a 231ps car that meets emmisions in 2005. It doesnt have to meet Euro4 until 2005 though, so an ECU remap may be an option.

1 reason is so mazda can boast that the Renasis meets the worlds toughest emissions tests (as rotaries are seen to be 'dirty'). Car manufacturers are trying to be as 'green' as they can atm.

I think Australia are on Euro3 at the moment and are getting 240ps cars. So it may be possible to aquire their engine map and/or ECU and use this in 03/04 cars.

Although 9ps wont make all that much difference, its better with than without.

As usualy , everything has had disclaimers on allowing Mazda to chance spec whenever they feel like it.

ChrisW

Although let's not forget that even the 231 ps is merely a projected figure. They could always either revise it down again, or (as they seem to have done in the US) give us a car with 20 hp less and hope we don't notice.

Even the "Euro Spec" cars driven by journalists recently were pre-production cars as were the cars driven by US journalists earlier in the year - there is no way of knowing what power they were producing. So therefore no way of knowing whether the performance they report is what we will get.

Sorry to be so negative, but I'm finding it increasingly hard to trust Mazda on this issue.

ep3

Listem guys, this may be an old story to you the fact remains...

1) I pre-ordered the vehicle on the basis that it had 250hp and this was OFFICIALLY (remember that word) confirmed by ALL documents I recieved up to the point I placed that order.

2) I have a LEGALLY BINDIN CONTRACT that states CATEGORICALLY that I am to receive a vehicle with AT LEAST 240hp.

So, I all respects I could sue Mazda for false advertising, breach or contract and breach of trading standards.

It's not the fact that the car has 231ps, it's the fact they knowing lied about it's performance (they knew about this well before I placed my order...of that I have no doubt).

Ciaran.

morganrogers

No you cant.
Specs can be changed at any point blah blah etc etc....

Sorry - You have no case.

If you dont want it - dont have it. It's a tough choice, but given the demand for this car you are unlikely to get much sympathy from Mazda.

Sorry , but thought a little reality was needed.

M.

RobDickinson

So wheres this legaly binding document?

I barely have a reciept for my deposit, and mazda have disclaimers on everything.

You've not BOUGHT the car yet. The deposit is (almost)fully refundable.

And I have never seen it advertised as a 250ps car in the UK.

cw007

I concur with Morgan and co, I have never seen any advertising or docs to state that it was ever 250 ps

Everything Mazda have printed so far have disclaimers that state that specs may change without notice.

SEE website it states it on almost every page.

jimbobjoe

The european car has never been listed as 250bhp. All the documentation regarding the european model quoted 240ps (237bhp) up until a few weeks ago when they revised it down to 231ps (228 bhp). Have you checked your documentation ????

The announcement that the power had dropped to 228bhp was badly handled by Mazda as they didn't want to make a big deal about it. Perhaps they hoped we wouldn't notice. :p

Anyway 231ps is what we're getting. Probably. Nothing is officially confirmed yet.

As for the insurance issue, then as has been stated here, the power was dropped for emmissions reasons, but may have been an influencing factor when the insurance groups were assigned. Group 16 for a 200+bhp car is very very good.

If you want 250bhp then re-chip it later.

MarkW

Ciaran,

Understand your frustrations, most of us felt the same when we first got the news, and it wasnt handled brilliantly by Mazda.

However, all of the documentation and brochures they have produced include some sort of waiver printed at the back stating something to the effect of they reserve the right to change spec / price etc withiut notice, so as the guys say you dont really have a case other than to cancel and ask for your money back if you are not happy.

I think it is a bit harsh to say they lied about the performance, Im sure they intended the car to be 240ps originally, but took the view to make it meet the new Euro IV regs now, rather than having to change it in 2 years time or whenever.

Im hoping there will be a number of ways with ECU changes and or aftermarket systems that will easily enable us to get 250bhp or more out of the Renesis.

ep3

Guys,

Just checked the terms and conditions of my order document - no waiver in respect of Mazda's requirement to provide the vehilce as specificed in the order, namely 240ps.

To quote section 2.1

"By placing the order you are asking Mazda to deliver....[the vehicle]...as set out in your order"

(they're breaking this clause)

Section 6.2

"Mazda does not warrant the suitability of the vehicle..."

(but that just says I can't change if I don't like it, not that mazda have the right to change the spec)

I can find no other clause that specifically allows Mazda to change the specification with the possible exception of Force Majure (Sec 9) but this would not apply.

If anyone has a copy of the UK agreement, please point out the spoecific clause wherein a waiver exists.

Anyhow, I'm gonna cancel the order. No way do I pay £23K for a motor that I could *easily* out drag in my slightly modified Civic Type R (that's 2 years old and £5K less) . This RX8 promised the moon an delivered something you'd scrape off yer boot...shame on you Mazda.

Ciaran.

morganrogers

With respect , a civicR although quick is not really in the same league of car as an RX8 is it ?

(and I am a typeR driver , so it's not a pop).

If you want performance over all , save up and get an Evo or similar....

M.

PS - Out drag ? We are not american ! We have corners !

Stu C

As has also been said many times, the rx8 is not meant to be a drag strip car - every review so far says it drives fantastically, and on a track, not a straight, it will (in my opinion) slaughter the civic. Remember that the (official) times for the Euro RX8 are still faster than a normal civic r.

also, the comfort, the spec (waaay above the civic r) and the looks (the civic r looks OK but thats about it.)

I probably can't convince you, but you get a lot more car for the money, and the 8 will prove it on tracks and comparisons in future. And as the other guys have said, it should be EASY to chip up to HP that the Civic could only reach with major cost.

STU

Jon H

I cant imagine most people would even notice the difference between 237 and 228 bhp. Myself included. Of all the reasons to buy this car, bhp is about 10th to 15th on my list. Read the EVO test, the Golf R32 has sackfuls more bhp and torque but the balance, stability, road feel, steering, and 'seat of pants' factor beat the golf, and probably any other car within £10k either direction. OK I am going by someone else's experience I am confident this car is going to blow me away. Dont cancel!!! Well OK if you must, it might mean I get mine quicker.

JH

TybeeRX-8

Check out this thread.

http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8903

More HP!!!

MarkW

Its your call, but for the sake of 9bhp I would at least wait another 8 weeks or so when you will be able to drive a demo car at your dealer and decide for yourself.

RX8 v CTR is no comparison im my opinion. Im trading my 265bhp WRX STi for the RX8, which would slaughter the RX8 and a CTR (I know) in a straight line, but as has been said there is a lot more to the RX8 than that.

Evo, WhatCar, AutoExpress, 4Car and many others have given the 231bhp car 5 out of 5 stars and raved on about it so is it really that bad?

rael

I'm sure you will find or Mazda will point out some small print allowing them to change specs, it's a standard get-out clause. I understand though that the dealers can get you back the mssing hp to 240 once the car is imported.

If you give us so easily after presumably reading all the positive reviews then possibly you won't last the Mazda PR shambles going forward anyway.

rael

ep3

You guys are all missing the poitn really. You're all blinded by your (somewhat misguided) love of either Mazda or Rotaries.

Let me tell you, regardless of being either a Mazda or a rotary, if you're prepared to invest in a car that has an engine that they couldn't even develop (with all Ford's billions) to meet Euro 4 emissions and still give 250hp is quite pathetic for a *brand* new vehicle in this day and age.

Honda did it years ago without breaking a sweat on 2 litre engine (the s2000) and still give over 30 mgp combined. Why can't Mazda?

All Mazda's words about how much effort they've put into the development of the RENESIS falls flat on it's face when you look at...

Power: 231ps (if you're lucky - not to mention 20%+ trans loss)
Torque: 200nm (again if you're lucky)
Economy: 24mpg combined (more like 20mpg for most)

I mean it's got the economy of an NA 4 litre V8 with nowhere near the power/torque. How this engine won 3 categories in the engine of the year is beyond me...how many palms did they have to grease to get that?

Just think about this, if this wasn't a Mazda or a Rotary and you saw those figures (from the start), I think most people would have baulked.

So, drop out the rotary and put a nicely tuned alloy 2 litre 4-potter...problem solved.

Anyway, you guys are obviously converted and wont hear sense, so, I'm gonna bow out of this forum and leave you to your delusions.

Ciaran.

PS - Anyone looking to jump the queue on a pre-order for hi (haha) power version (Silver/Cloth/Met Paint) then call Peter Jarmaine of Newbury Mazda sometime after 3pm (gmt) today...you can have mine.

RobDickinson

hmm. It beat a number of well respecrd engines (BMW, honda etc) and was voted on by people who know what there talking about.

So get lost troll.

morganrogers

Aw... Shame he's dropping out. I was enjoying his reasoned discussion....

ep3

Re: So get lost troll!

Awwww, did I hurt Robs wickle feelings for wickle car
Mama kiss it better...mwah...mwah...

Grow up man, are you sure you're old enough to drive?

Ciaran.

AndyPearce

He was never going to understand it when he was comparing the figures for a NA piston engine and a rotary. Everyone knows that the rotary (even the improved RENESIS) is more thirsty than the BHP equivalent piston engine.

At the end of the day he was more concerned about the spec sheet than the performance.

I'm not a fan of either the rotary or Mazda (yet!) and I'm waiting til I actually drive the car before I pass judgement one way or the other. At the end of the day the spec sheet means nothing when it comes to how much enjoyment you can get out of a car.

RobDickinson

Your the one who , with their first post, came on here kicking and screaming, crying and winging.

Its only a car, one which NO ONE HERE has actualy bought yet. We've placed deposits for a place in a queue. Thats all.

If, when I drive the car , I feel its underpowered, or I just dont like it - I pick up my £1k and walk away. I dont loose, mazda doesnt loose, who cares?

Now get back to your pre-riced bread van typeR, if you like it so much stick with it.