morganrogers

Given that we seem to have a few more faces around these days (and some of these may have excellent rotary knowledge) I wondered if anyone had any views on this yet.

Basically - I want to know how we feel Mazda will be changing the engines behaviour in line with EuroIV emissions - and more to the point , how do we 'unlock' the missing horses if we are of a mind to ?

I see 2 hot suspects -
Either - the ECU for the engine , in which case there will be plenty of persons able to source Jap/US ECUs and the chances are that Mazda will not know the difference. Plus if something did require warranty work you could always swap them back again.

Other possibility would seem to be the exhaust/catalytic converter. I would be more surprised if this was the case as it would mean a fundamental component change during the build of the cars. I mean why not run it for all the world market ?

Just out of interest I may start a poll to see how many of us would be interested in getting the power back. At the very least it may give some performance houses the idea that there is a market out there !

sixspeed

Meeeeee! Me! Me me me me me!

I'm dying to know what the differences are, and I'm willing to bet that it's something straightforward like fuel mapping in the ECU or maybe even something real straightforward like a restriction in the intake etc.

At least, that's what I'm hoping!



-andy-

c170673

Personally, I think it will be the ECU that will have been changed and as morgan says there will be plenty of companies willing and able to provide re-mapped components for regain the "lost power"

Chris

MarkW

Me too!! I want 20bhp back, and more if its going. :D

I think ECU is the most likely, though as you say there may be improvements to be made to the exhaust/airflow.

If any aftermarket companies develop something and its not too expensive I may well go for it.

There is a 'sports exhaust' on the accessories list, but I have no info on it as to what it replaces and if it increases performance in any way.

Maybe we should start another poll as to how much you would be willing to pay for 20bhp??

Cheers
Mark

jimbobjoe

I'm quite happy to leave things well alone.

If you go for a retune then you're looking at
Some expense
Possible warranty problem
Possible shortening of component life
Increase fuel consumption
Increase insurance premiums

It's not as if you've had the car and then they've taken some HP away. Can't miss what you've never had !

But I've never modded any car I've had before. (Not that any of them have been worth bothering though).

AndyPearce

I'm caught halfway - I've never modded any of my cars (but I've been tempted) and I don't really want to risk things like insurance invalidation or warranty.

I think I'll wait to see how I like the performance as standard first and get the change made if I feel it's lacking.

Titanium Grey

I don't look at it as modding, because the car was designed to deliver this sort of power anyway.

I believe, with majority here, that it is an ECU tweak, and the only reason it's there is to meet with Euro 4 regs.

If 250 ps meets with Euro 3 (current regs) then the only problem I see is with warranty issues, as I dont see 20hp bumping it up into the next insurance group either.

bugbear

while i agree with you - especially component life - after all it's standard in most markets (in fact you might argue that europe is non-standard) - i'm sure any insurance company would take a dim view if they found out. the insurance company will have considered the performance when accessing the category - a change in the performance should at least be consider by any insuring company.

ChrisW

I would guess it would be the ECU as it would be preferable from Mazda's point of view not to have different components for the European market (especially as it is such a relatively small market). It's got a drive-by-wire throttle, electronic fuel injection and electronic control of the variable air intake system so I guess they could do anything they would want to do via the ECU.

However, I doubt you would be able to easily change the chip yourself. I don't know about the car industry specifically, but generally nowadays programmable chips tend to be fine pitch surface mount devices soldered directly onto the circuit board (this makes the assembly smaller and more robust than with the socketed chips you used to get). You reprogram them "in circuit" by connecting a programmer up to a connector on the circuit board. It would have to be done by someone who had the programming equipment and therefore you couldn't easily swap back to the previous setup.

It may also be obvious to Mazda that you have changed it. The ECU probably contains some kind of a history of the engine's operation for diagnostic purposes. If this had all been reset then they would know you had messed with it. I wouldn't touch it until after the warranty has expired.

ChrisW

In Australia they have also adopted EU emmissions standards for some reason. The current standard is Euro 3 and Euro 4 does not come into force until 2007/8 I think. Therefore the Australian spec RX-8 meets Euro 3 - however it produces 240 PS, which implies that the 250 PS Japan/US spec would not meet current UK requirements.

As far as insurance is concerned I don't think the problem is the extra 10-20 hp but the fact that it is modded. The way insurance companies see it, anyone who goes to the trouble of modifying their car for extra performance is obviously someone who drives fast and is thus an extra risk.

copperband

I too think it will be a farily simple change of part of the ECU.
As far as i know companies like Superchips still do quite a few chip upgrades which suggests that it is more a plug out the old and in with the new as they advertise it as easily reversable.
It would be interesting to know if there are any companies either in Japan or the US that have produced an aftermarket chip to uprate their 250ps, if so we could skip the middle step and go directly for one of those. I can't believe it would create a problem with the running of the car as the 2 are fundementally the same.

I am also interested in the fuel debate, is using Shell Optimax for example going to give better performance than normal 95 ron? I know it has been discussed speculatively before elsewhere on the forum but i've not seen any anecdotal comments.

Ed

jimbobjoe

Exactly !
Here they can put your insurance up for having mods that don't increase performance (body kits etc). It's the type of person that mods cars they're looking out for.
:D

ChrisW

Well I've just looked at Superchips' site and they talk about your ECU being "programmed while you wait" which implies you have to take it to them to have it done (or to have it reversed). I know you used to be able to get chips and plug them in yourself but I don't think modern cars have socketed chips that can be just plugged in and out like this (but I may be wrong).

The Ace

I hope that the "new members with rotary knowledge" comment was aimed at me :D, but anyway:

Main restricting part for rotaries was always the exhaust. Not only that, but the pre-cat (which was necessary only for US cars) is even more dangerous, as it tends to take out the main cat as well, when it gives up the ghost Since the pre-cat is NOT a requirement for european laws, its just a simple issue of making a decent downpipe. I dont think that the pre-cat makes this difference (although it can release 20HP in a FD VERY easily), but it could......

Moreover, the rest of the exhaust is also very restrictive in the RX8. Although the fuel system is much more advanced (its now return-less), emissions are still a very important issue, so......As you may know, A/F ratios are VERY important for wankel engines, so their emissions are relatively high.......

As for the ECU, its also a very simple way to increase horsepower (if the engine is "restricted" in the first place), but I'm guessing it will be a long time before someone actually offers an upgrade for the RX8 ECU. It will probably be much more easier to install a AFC or standalone and take it from there.....

rael

My dealer said that he would give me the lost horses as the restriction was only required upon import and that this would be easy and possibly free.

But then he has been talking crap for some time now.....

rael

Jon Brittan

I'd assume it's probably the ECU, and if I could have that HP back, of course I'd take it.

Stu C

I have absolutely no knowledge here, but what is the theoretical bhp limit, while still keeping an engine that is useable on a daily basis, assuming one doesnt mind the fuel costs?

eg is 260, or more bhp possible?? This includes possible mods to exhaust, air filters etc. as well as ecu

STU

Lensman

This is all looking increasingly hypothetical...

AnilS

I assume that the 250ps and 231ps are the same cars, fundementally. This should mean that the brakes, suspension, tyres, air induction, etc...... will be the same ? If so, then the 231ps car can handle the extra missing power without extra expense, other than the chip/ECU adjustment.
I too will look to replace the missing BHP but as I'm new to rotories, I'm concerned about realiability.

AnilS.

Jon Brittan

Spoke to a contact of mine at Mazda, not very well placed but he knows enough about the machines, he confirmed that the only reason the Euro spec. cars are down on power is purely because of emissions.

If that truly is the case, which is pretty much what we expected anyway, then I don't see that there would be a problem with a simple ECU change to get everything back to normal.
Maybe someone who has contacts in Japan could see if they could get one of the garages to get hold of replacement Jap-spec ECUs, you could do a great trade bringing them into this country.