DPE

iTrader: (1)

FINALLY got both cars together for a bit of a spirited drive, now that the weather finally cleared up. Just so you know what's being compared:

My car: '04 GT - 38k miles, Tokico D-spec shocks, Tein H-tech springs, Whiteline adjustable swaybars front and rear on the stiff setting, Avon M500 tires in 245/40 on OEM wheels with about 60% remaining tread at 34psi all around.

Tom's car: '04 Sport - 43k miles, Koni Sport shocks, Tein H-tech springs, Whiteline adjustable swaybars front and rear on the stiff setting, Toyo T1-R tires in 245/40 on OEM wheels with about 20% remaining tread at 34psi all around.

The point is to compare the shocks of course, and in this case the only real variable outside of shocks is tires. And that's a big one, and certainly had some influence; how much was hard to tell, but we don't think it accounted for all of the variation. Also, our alignments are very similar with zero toe front, about 2mm in in the rear, and -1.5ish degrees camber all around.

Myself, Craig (TheArchitect as some of you may know and a former RX-8 owner)and Tom took turns driving each car down a couple different twisty roads in the area. Not great roads mind you, but they serve up enough corners to get a feel for what a suspension is doing.

It was obvious to everyone that Tom's car reacted more quickly to any kind of steering input. This is somewhat a function of the tires being lower on tread and therefore less 'squirmy', but we also felt the Konis allow the car to take a set more quickly and do a better job of controlling the initial roll as you turn in. As a corollary to this, Tom has experimented with the front shocks on track and picked up speed in corners when he cranked up the fronts a bit. Where my car turned in very well, his was outstanding. And though this is starting to sound like a stream of consciousness, I also want to add that the Konis always had the edge on turn-in over the Tein Basics as well. And the two cars we compared at the time were on totally different but comparable tires.

In mid-corner, his car felt a touch more planted and confidence inspiring. Again, some of which was due to tires, but the car simply felt more direct with no wasted body motion. If you hit bumps in mid-corner, his car was a bit quicker to recover as well. Once again, consistent with the Koni advantage over Tein Basics that we felt existed back then.

In normal driving, the cars feel pretty similar over bumps. Tom's car might be a touch more harsh, but either one is plenty comfortable for the daily commute.

And here's the interesting thing: Tom's Konis were set a FULL SOFT in front and only a half turn up (about 25%) in the rear for this drive. On my car I ran the Tokicos at one turn down from FULL STIFF (about 85%). The shock tuning is so different that there's almost no overlap; The Tokicos can give you a ride that seems almost softer than OEM, up to about Konis on the softest settings. Konis go from Tokicos on firm on up to vastly firmer.

In my time with the Tokicos I've determined the bottom half of the damper adjustment range to be essentially useless unless you want a REALLY cushy ride. To put that another way, I drove down to Hallett (a road course in Oklahoma that's about a 250 mile drive) a few weeks ago and set them at about 25% stiffness. The thing felt like a boat. I turned them up for track use to about 70%. My day was cut short by personal problems that resulted in my being able to describe the Hallett bathrooms in extreme detail due to the time spent in there, but by my last of three sessions that I ran the shocks were at about 85% front and rear. And the next session I would have cranked them up to max stiff. Since being at the track, my shocks have stayed at 85% (for the drive home and since). There's simply no reason to turn them down much lower than that; it still rides quite well, and it feels quite good without beating you up.

So a conclusion? Hard to draw conclusions when that tire variable is in there and no back-to-back track time. And, we're just a few guys who like to hammer on RX8s at every opportunity; it's not like we're pro racers or even amateur racers for that matter. But, so we don't cop out completely, here's what I'd say as of right now.

Either shock is a huge upgrade over OEM. Either one will likely provide you with many years of trouble-free service, and the companies are comparable in overall quality and such. DPE has sold many, many sets of Konis and thus far have had one RX-8 shock that was 'bad'. We've sold fewer Tokicos and haven't had any problems, though I know one forum member is having bad luck with his D-spec kit. Probably just got a bad set though, and I don't THINK it's common for them to have issues. Please post here if you've had issues with either.

For those wanting to keep a stock-like ride even with aftermarket springs, the Tokicos will allow more cushiness. Yet they also can be turned up high enough to accomodate almost any aftermarket spring and do weekend track duty reasonably well. The other BIG thing is that the rears can be easily adjusted assuming you have the extension cables (which we include with our D-spec kits ). That's a big deal for those who live in areas with very bad roads where the softer settings of the Tokicos might be more useful than I find them around here. And just to be able to tweak them easily for slight changes in chassis balance is a very nice feature.

If you find yourself on track often or just want the most bang for your sporting buck, I think the Konis are the way to go. They are certainly well-proven among autox folks, and I've yet to have a customer complain about them not being 'sporty' enough. But by the same token, I haven't had anyone come back saying they're too harsh; you just have to choose your rear setting wisely unless you have a lot of time to take them out for adjustment whenever you like. Which admittedly is a negative.

For me, personally, Konis are the way to go. The car just feels slightly more buttoned down, slightly quicker to respond, and I believe that on track they'll prove to be superior. But I'm on track a lot, don't have to drive my car every day (I also have a gorgeous '88 S10, that is every bit as beautiful as you might think when you picture S10s from the '80s), and I'm a car dork that gets excited about improving driving feel even a tiny bit.

Once again, I want to reiterate that both shocks are a VAST improvement over OEM. I can't say that enough; the car just feels so much better with either one installed. And I also want to say that I don't make any more money off of either, so it's not 'that kind' of bias. We've sold a lot more Konis, but the Konis have been out a lot longer and remain more widely available at the moment. We're happy to sell either, and have full confidence in both products. All drivers agreed that they could live with either and be happy.

I think that's more than enough for one sitting, so I'll leave it at that for now. Don't expect many updates until we can get on track next Spring or if we are able to swap tires and compare back-to-back that way. Which isn't likely to happen in the upcoming dead of winter, but you never know!

brillo

good read, I've only driven a car with the Koni's so its nice to know what you think of the Dspec's.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

great write phil..

the new dspec goes on sat..

beers

DPE

iTrader: (1)

swoope - Glad to hear it; hopefully that'll get you squared away!

brillo - Hope the new rear bushings are still treating you well !

Forgot to mention, but on a completely unrelated note we had a chance to compare a Greddy exhaust with the Mazdaspeed Sport. I think the MS is a touch louder, but they ultimately sound pretty similar. The MS wins the flame contest hands down though; the Greddy gives off a few from time to time, but apparently my car looked to be on fire a couple times . Fun stuff, particularly at night. . .

And for you guys who REALLY care, I believe Tom's car (the Greddy) is on the R flash while mine is on whatever flash comes with the engine recall that causes the OMP to inject a bit more oil. Not sure how different they are other than that, if at all, but I like to make sure all the facts are out there before I start talking about flaming. . .

cavemancan

You Flamer!

That was an awsome write up DPE!! You may have made my decision for me. I should be ready to buy Konis in a month and a half maybe sooner.

Keep up the good work!

TownDrunk

Thank you for your objective observations in this comparison. Very nice write up.

alnielsen

iTrader: (4)

I thank you for the time that you put into the test. I wish you were able to do the test with the same tires on both cars, as they are so important to a cars handling characteristics. At this moment, I am leaning twoard the Tokico's. I had Koni's on my FB race car and they were just too stiff. That and the ability to adjust the rear suspention with the Tokico's.

kcrx8

I'm Tom, the owner of the RX-8 we drove back-to-back with Phil's. Just thought I'd add a few comments, although everything Phil said was right on point.

First, I'd say I have a pretty good basis to know what my car feels like on softer tires, as the night before this test it was on very soft, very squirmy snow tires. I swapped for the test, but the memory of squirmy tires with my same suspension setup was fresh. There were some differences in steering feel and confidence level that I'd attribute to the tires. What really struck me was how quickly the Konis took a set. In a quick transition, the Avons on Phil's car (Tokicos) would steer slower, but even after the tires reacted, the suspension was not quite as resolute in what it wanted to do. In my car (Konis), the front end settled and the car headed into the corner NOW. The difference really felt very much like changing my shock setting by about a turn up front.

A couple more comments on the ride: both were firmer than stock, but in a different way. The Konis transmitted every little ripple (high-speed suspension movement) more quickly, and the Tokicos soaked it up better. The Konis really let you (make you?) feel every expansion joint more. However, on slightly slower speed bumps, like pounding across truck ruts in an intersection, the Konis would have the whole car take one quick movement over the bump and then it was settled. The Tokicos would allow just a touch more suspension movement over and after the bump, but they'd kill all movement within one cycle of the springs. In other words, they were working beautifully, but just tuned to allow hair more suspension movement. IMO, this could really be useful if you're driving rough roads a lot and want a car that isn't quite so ready to hop over bumps and lose grip. Again, that's splitting hairs as both worked well, but differently.

Hope that helps some to get a better impression of them.

As for the flash - yes, mine is on R flash. Need to get that recall work scheduled sometime...

success07

Great job guys! Thank you for your imput!

This will help alot of folks.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

note to all...

got new shock on today.. amazing the difference one bad shock makes.. all is much better now..

and thanks again phil.

beers

coolstorm92

iTrader: (1)

Good write up Phil. I'm sold on the koni to go with my tein s-tech. I will be hooking up those Konis from you pretty soon. Where do you guys get your alingment in this area. I went to goodyear last time and when I took off my summer wheels recently to bolt up my winter rims/tires I noticed too much uneven wear on the inside of the tire.

dtorre

Great writeup...still loving my S-tech Koni setup from you guys...

More_Revs

Hi guys, I'm new here. Just got my 8 earlier this month. Couldn't be happier with the car.

Great write up DPE. My car is still new, but the mod bug is already biting and suspension is on the top of my list. Other than aftermarket spring/stock/bars combo, I'm also considering the MS kit. Do you have any experience on that compare to your H-Tech/D Spec/Whiteline combo? I should tell you that I'm a regular at autocross and an occational track runner, so if I do get adjustable shocks, external adjustment is almost a must for quick tuning at the autox and track.

shaunv74

DPE is there any news of getting external adjuster cables for the rear koni shocks so they don't have to come off the car? Dtorre has not being able to adjust your rear shocks been a PITA?

DPE

iTrader: (1)

First, let me address the Koni rear shock adjustability issue. There seems to be a common misconception that one could rig up some cable adjusters to adjust the rear Konis just like the Tokicos. As the Konis come from the factory, this is simply not the case. There is no external adjustment **** on the rear Konis. To adjust them one has to remove the shock from the car, compress the piston rod all the way down until it clicks into place internally, and adjust by twisting one direction or the other.

Now, there MAY be a way to get Koni to modify them (for a price, of course), so that they are in some way externally adjustable. I've seen sporadic posts about people just having to drop the shock down to adjust it rather than take apart the assembly, but I'm pretty sure they weren't running the Koni Sport (Yellows) and doing that without some kind of modification.

As for comparing suspensions, I have not had a chance to try the Mazdaspeed kit. I hear good things, though. But it will cost you notably more; for example, from prices I've seen on here (and ones I can give; we can get MS stuff in case you wanted to know ) it would cost a person roughly $1250-1350 shipped for MS springs, shocks and swaybars. For Koni or Tokico shocks with Tein or Tanabe springs and adjustable Whiteline swaybars, we could be right at $1000. And we know that's a good setup, and has shock and swaybar adjustability . Pick your parts well, and I believe we can do $945 for Tein S-tech or H-tech springs, Konis, and Whiteline fixed bars.

More_Revs, the rub on adjustable shock selection is that it's likely Konis are the superior shocks for autox, but Tokicos allow quick and easy rear adjustment. Unless you are competing at a national level I doubt it'll make a huge difference, and the ease of adjusability in the Tokicos might trump the Konis superiority for what you are doing. Seems like someone at Nationals finished in the Top 15 on Tokicos, and it was their first time at the event, so clearly they CAN work okay. And I suspect that in time you'll see Tokicos creep up a bit; they've not been out nearly as long as Konis have, and thus aren't going to be as prolific for another couple years.

DPE

iTrader: (1)

Oh, and I have one set of Konis and one set of Tokicos in-stock right now, in case anyone wanted to know .

Tokico:
http://www.dpeweb.com/ProductDetails...2&vehicleID=58


Koni shocks and package deals with Tein springs (also in-stock):
http://www.dpeweb.com/ProductsList.a...ductTypeID=107

And I have one set of Tanabe GF210 springs in stock as well.

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

That was me, and yes, I hope to creep up this year.

Interesting write up - thanks for the careful comparison.

I must say, I'm surprised that the Konis, on full soft, felt stiffer than the Tokicos at one turn back.

I've had the chance to autocross my car back to back (3 runs in each car) with one of the nationally top-placing BS RX-8s, which was/is on Konis. While autocrossing both cars with V710s & similar set-ups, neither I or the other driver felt the Koni car to have obviously faster turn-in or transitional response than my car. So you can see why I'm surprised at your comments.

Perhaps it's due to all that low-speed damping the Konis typically have. I could easily see the low-speed damping asserting itself on the street, where suspension movements and steering inputs aren't as aggressive as they are while autocrossing on R-compounds. However, while autocrossing in a slalom, for example, I'm pretty sure the shaft velocities are higher than you would see in steet use and/or street tires. The Tokicos have gobs of damping over 2 in/sec, as you can see in my dyno graph:

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=Tokico

So I don't completely agree with the comment that there is almost no overlap between these dampers. Perhaps it feels that way on the street, but it didn't feel that way to me or the other driver while autocrossing on R-compounds.

I'm not saying your conclusions are wrong - I'm sure they are very relevant for street use, and I commend you for giving an even-handed comparison. Each shock clearly has it's own "personallity" and trade-offs.

But I think if you run your car and Tom's car back to back on an autocross, particularly on R-compounds, you'll find yourself needing to turn the Konis up to get the transitional response to match to Tokicos (assuming the Tokicos are sett to full or nearlly full stiff).

Are you planning autocross and/or track comparisons?

Regards,
George

shaunv74

Thanks DPE for the education. I didn't realize the design limitations of the Konis...now I have a better understanding.

DPE

iTrader: (1)

George,

Thanks for chiming in on this one! That is perhaps more valuable input that I had to offer .

It's interesting that we got a bit different results, but not entirely surprising either given the differences in environment. I believe, as you suggest, that how the shocks feel on the street is going to be somewhat different than how they feel on the autox or track. But autox in particular, where the car is really getting thrown around. Generally speaking, public road twisties are going to be more like a road course, with smaller and smoother inputs being required. Not to mention higher-speed cornering with fewer quick transitions. That's going to make a difference in what one notices about the shocks.

And of course we still have to address our tire issue, in that we either need to be on the same ones or swap them and run the same road/track/autox back-to-back. Which should be doable this Spring, I believe. That would take away the only major variable in comparing our cars.

What will certainly happen is we will both be on track at the same time, though it may be April before it happens. But I will leave my suspension alone until then, other than adjusting shocks and swaybars on occasion. And for that matter, we may even be able to hit an autox, but I'd rather do more street and road course comparos first; that's just what we like to do . Hope to have more to report from some street comparos in the near future, but sadly there's not a lot of track days on the schedule in the next couple months . Such is winter. . .

GeorgeH

iTrader: (2)

Don't sell yourself short! After all, I only have 3 minutes in a Koni equipped car, LOL. Still, I am interested to learn more, so I'll watch this forum. I'm hoping to do some more auto-x based Koni/D-Spec comparisons myself, as there are two reasonably prepared Koni cars in my general area. The first test, which I talk about above, was hard to draw actual performance conclusions from due to some alignment differences. As I get my car more dialed in we should be able to determine if one shock has an obvious performance advantage over the other.

George

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

My limited input here--I track with Koni's (sport) (i have the tein h springs abd RB sways). been running toyo ra 1's 235/40/17's. To be honest the biggest improvement over stock that I could contribute soley to the koni's is in braking. The rear end is much more planted during those "dont brake until you see God" events. I also see a little improvement in high speed transitions but not as much as in braking. just my little input.
olddragger

DPE

iTrader: (1)

olddragger, we don't get enough of your comments around here! Always good to hear from you.

Mr. Hill, I don't know a thing about drag racing, but it would seem to me an easily-adjustable rear shock could be of some use to you for controlling how the car launches. Not sure exactly how, but shocks do have an effect in how weight transfers front to rear and you may be able to gain something there even if it's only a better feel for the sake of consistency. Plus, it doesn't sound like you're going to be one to worry about getting the last degree of performance out of the shocks on the road course. For those two reasons, it seems to me that the Tokicos would be a good bet for your application. Sounds like you need to get something anyway; by 50k those poor OEM shocks are hurting!

Just FYI, I ran out of Tokicos today but will have another set on the way very soon.

swoope

iTrader: (5)

yep,

dont you have to do a pre employment screening down here.. i will hand you the keys...

beers

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Charles-- I dont think you will find a differance in these two sticks.
imho the effect at the strip(between these 2) will be minimal if any. What they may do is help a little in controling the slight wheelhop/windup issue that remains, allowing you to be able to tune some more with the rear tires. I know your rears are hooking up good(i remember!), but with the better sticks you could possibily go with a better grip tire. Please get skinny's up front for the strip man--makes a differance as you know.
For the track--since the best mod is between the steering wheel and the seat, imho again i have to say i really like my setup. DPE offers great advice and support. The konis are good on the street and track , yes you cant adjust the rears easily --but then again as DPE advised me--i dont need too. I set them as recommended and leave them alone. The fronts only need slight adjustment for track days(easily done) and on the street they are fine. I am sure the Tokico's are good shocks but I have found the less "adjustability" the better in my case. If I can adjust it i will be tempted to do that, when the adjustment usually needed is in the driver(me)!
On a Road Race track the 8 is basically a good neutral, forgivening car. Once you have gotten to the point that you are consistant, smooth and fast on the track--then look to upgrade further. To do that you get into some pretty complex and expensive stuff. IMHO also the entry level coil over setups are not needed for the hpde type track. They are great set ups for what they are, but speaking of just for track use our car is corner weighted great from the factory.Yes you can do more fine tuning for individual tracks but you really dont need that until you become more experienced and can utilized all the car you now have. Once that level is reached you will want more than the basic coliover package.
You may want to change springs. The RB ones are really good as far as the spring rate etc is concerned but again imho they just dont drop the car enough for track use. One of our guys runs them but in following him (to observe only lol) i can see a differance in transitioning. These are all just my humble uneducated but a little experienced opions. How it helps some.
Oh by the way off subject but there is a trick in dealing with our catalytic coverter that I learned from another club member and DPE on the fuel starvation issue--when you have time --check out my thread on it. I have sent the pumps to someone very capable of finding out what the heck is going on. You would be surprised who has an interest. I have sworn to not tell.
rotor on
olddragger

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

now when you show up with wheelie bars-----!
OD
ps--by the way --you cant go wrong with dpe-they are honest.