DIY: Mazda Zoom Power Engine Cleaner (Engine Cleaning, Seaform)
10-31-2012, 05:07 PM
#677
My advice has been posted already, have you read the threads on this subject? The "decarb" process is horse **** and does nothing beneficial. The smoking people see is just Zoom Zoom cleaner or Seafoam burning, that is it.
Anyone that has torn a Renesis engine apart will tell you how difficult carbon is to remove from the engine with elbow grease, many hours, a wire brush, and solvent so there is no way in hell a trickle of cleaner is going to get rid of any of it. I know because I have seen inside of my engine that was "decarbed". Waste of money.
Anyone that has torn a Renesis engine apart will tell you how difficult carbon is to remove from the engine with elbow grease, many hours, a wire brush, and solvent so there is no way in hell a trickle of cleaner is going to get rid of any of it. I know because I have seen inside of my engine that was "decarbed". Waste of money.
WTS 1x zoom power engine cleaner
10-31-2012, 05:12 PM
#678
I've now cracked open 2 engines that were seafoamed prior to being pulled and have seen 1 that was seafomed regularly.
SEALS WERE STUCK AS ****, ROTORS WERE COVERED IN CARBON.
I guess I need to crack a few more open and show pics for you guys to get this through your thick *** skulls.
SEALS WERE STUCK AS ****, ROTORS WERE COVERED IN CARBON.
I guess I need to crack a few more open and show pics for you guys to get this through your thick *** skulls.
My advice has been posted already, have you read the threads on this subject? The "decarb" process is horse **** and does nothing beneficial. The smoking people see is just Zoom Zoom cleaner or Seafoam burning, that is it.
Anyone that has torn a Renesis engine apart will tell you how difficult carbon is to remove from the engine with elbow grease, many hours, a wire brush, and solvent so there is no way in hell a trickle of cleaner is going to get rid of any of it. I know because I have seen inside of my engine that was "decarbed". Waste of money.
Anyone that has torn a Renesis engine apart will tell you how difficult carbon is to remove from the engine with elbow grease, many hours, a wire brush, and solvent so there is no way in hell a trickle of cleaner is going to get rid of any of it. I know because I have seen inside of my engine that was "decarbed". Waste of money.
11-01-2012, 12:41 PM
#679
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My advice has been posted already, have you read the threads on this subject? The "decarb" process is horse **** and does nothing beneficial. The smoking people see is just Zoom Zoom cleaner or Seafoam burning, that is it.
Anyone that has torn a Renesis engine apart will tell you how difficult carbon is to remove from the engine with elbow grease, many hours, a wire brush, and solvent so there is no way in hell a trickle of cleaner is going to get rid of any of it. I know because I have seen inside of my engine that was "decarbed". Waste of money.
Anyone that has torn a Renesis engine apart will tell you how difficult carbon is to remove from the engine with elbow grease, many hours, a wire brush, and solvent so there is no way in hell a trickle of cleaner is going to get rid of any of it. I know because I have seen inside of my engine that was "decarbed". Waste of money.
I've had hands on experience with a few methods of cleaning carbon build up on the backside of valves for engines with direct injection. Seafoam, BK, BG, water, all of that **** did nothing. When we used GM top engine clean the **** got blasted away. This was done by letting the car sit for at the minimum of an hour saturated with the top engine clean in it.
I'm not trying to say your wrong. I'm simply stating I've seen what products do and do not work for heavily saturated engines with carbon-caked valves that misfire - by my own personal experience and validated by the same process done by my co-workers.
11-12-2012, 01:20 PM
#682
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I don't feel like digging, but what cleaner did you use?
I've had hands on experience with a few methods of cleaning carbon build up on the backside of valves for engines with direct injection. Seafoam, BK, BG, water, all of that **** did nothing. When we used GM top engine clean the **** got blasted away. This was done by letting the car sit for at the minimum of an hour saturated with the top engine clean in it.
I'm not trying to say your wrong. I'm simply stating I've seen what products do and do not work for heavily saturated engines with carbon-caked valves that misfire - by my own personal experience and validated by the same process done by my co-workers.
I've had hands on experience with a few methods of cleaning carbon build up on the backside of valves for engines with direct injection. Seafoam, BK, BG, water, all of that **** did nothing. When we used GM top engine clean the **** got blasted away. This was done by letting the car sit for at the minimum of an hour saturated with the top engine clean in it.
I'm not trying to say your wrong. I'm simply stating I've seen what products do and do not work for heavily saturated engines with carbon-caked valves that misfire - by my own personal experience and validated by the same process done by my co-workers.
As for spraying it in somewhere and letting sit, well that would work to remove the carbon from whatever is soaking in the cleaner, but then you may have large chunks of carbon come off and where will that go and could those chunks do damage. Not to mention that most of the cleaners have warnings that state not to allow aluminum to soak in them. Why that is I don't know, but the housings are aluminum. and what cleaners are corrosive?
11-13-2012, 10:51 AM
#684
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That may be true for some cleaners 9k.
I checked my bottle of GM top engine cleaner and there isn't any warnings.
It does explain that it should be used as an in fuel rail cleaner. Once spring comes we have a canister to do such so I'm going to try this. Basically you connect the cleaner to a small tank and let the engine run only on the cleaner.
If the cleaner was dangerous/harmful to the catalytic converter I highly doubt so many shops would be using this. Especially the fact that Lexus engineers reccomended the product during cleaning of heavily saturated engines. I'm sure they found the cleaner diluted any carbon into a combustible form to aid in not hurting the catalyst.
Furthermore in the procedure we changed the oil twice, and the filter so it would not linger at full effect in the oil to break it down.
And it's not only Lexus doing it. Hyundai uses a similar cleaner injected through the rail. Done on many direct injected engines. The flaw behind direct injection is a air fuel mixture is no longer blasted across the back of the valve to aid in carbon removal. Granted we are talking rotaries here but we are maintaining the same concept - carbon removal.
Look. There will be people who argue carbon cleaning is a joke and a waste of money. Many of those who do not have the repetitive hands on experience can surely be persuaded to believe so. But I have to ask in rebuttle - how do you know the content of carbon would be the same by doing or not doing the procedure.
It would take someone with a ton of R&D time/money to accurately determine if a carbon cleaning procedure was a joke or not. I find it ironic Mazda specifies such a procedure with perhaps a lackluster cleaner, but nevertheless does provide it; yet so many experienced "engineers" on here claim it to be false.
I'd like R&D.
I'd love to talk to a Mazda engineer regarding such.
Fact is I see more opinions on carbon cleaning then facts.
I've seen first hand the results, which I find beneficial with minimal if any side effect. Cracking open an engine and saying carbon cleaning didn't do anything is hardly factual.
How do you know excess carbon wasn't removed and the stuff left over has just gone too long and coked on seals/components? What about engines cleaned thoroughly and regularly every 15k? We change our plugs every 20k cause of carbon, why not "clean" the engine as well?
Simply put. To each his own.
I checked my bottle of GM top engine cleaner and there isn't any warnings.
It does explain that it should be used as an in fuel rail cleaner. Once spring comes we have a canister to do such so I'm going to try this. Basically you connect the cleaner to a small tank and let the engine run only on the cleaner.
If the cleaner was dangerous/harmful to the catalytic converter I highly doubt so many shops would be using this. Especially the fact that Lexus engineers reccomended the product during cleaning of heavily saturated engines. I'm sure they found the cleaner diluted any carbon into a combustible form to aid in not hurting the catalyst.
Furthermore in the procedure we changed the oil twice, and the filter so it would not linger at full effect in the oil to break it down.
And it's not only Lexus doing it. Hyundai uses a similar cleaner injected through the rail. Done on many direct injected engines. The flaw behind direct injection is a air fuel mixture is no longer blasted across the back of the valve to aid in carbon removal. Granted we are talking rotaries here but we are maintaining the same concept - carbon removal.
Look. There will be people who argue carbon cleaning is a joke and a waste of money. Many of those who do not have the repetitive hands on experience can surely be persuaded to believe so. But I have to ask in rebuttle - how do you know the content of carbon would be the same by doing or not doing the procedure.
It would take someone with a ton of R&D time/money to accurately determine if a carbon cleaning procedure was a joke or not. I find it ironic Mazda specifies such a procedure with perhaps a lackluster cleaner, but nevertheless does provide it; yet so many experienced "engineers" on here claim it to be false.
I'd like R&D.
I'd love to talk to a Mazda engineer regarding such.
Fact is I see more opinions on carbon cleaning then facts.
I've seen first hand the results, which I find beneficial with minimal if any side effect. Cracking open an engine and saying carbon cleaning didn't do anything is hardly factual.
How do you know excess carbon wasn't removed and the stuff left over has just gone too long and coked on seals/components? What about engines cleaned thoroughly and regularly every 15k? We change our plugs every 20k cause of carbon, why not "clean" the engine as well?
Simply put. To each his own.
Last edited by viprez586; 11-13-2012 at 10:56 AM.
11-13-2012, 11:06 AM
#685
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Yeah because we all know engineers are perfect and have all the answers right? I mean that is why the Renesis is so reliable right? And we are talking rotary, I don't give a **** what Lexus or Hyundai does. Removing carbon build up in a rotary by injecting a cleaner into the intake tract is different than doing it on a piston engine.
I know what I know. I have been involved in a couple of Renesis tear downs and I have seen the insides of my last motor that was seafoamed and Zoom Zoom cleaned, and I have seen the insides of others that have been too. I have been present for Zoom Zoom procedures being done and seafoaming and all that is happening is the cleaner is being burned, that is what the smoke is, nothing else.
Does is remove any carbon? Sure, but the amount is miniscule. And whether or not it's dangerous to the cat would depend on the specific makeup of the product used, the amount used and how often I would assume. But if TC3W premix is not good for cats then I don't see how seafoam or zoom zoom cleaner could be.
But believe what you believe but if you argument is based on what manufacturers or dealers recommend then I can't take you seriously. Engineers don't make the final decisions on what is best for for the engine, bean counters and executives do.
I know what I know. I have been involved in a couple of Renesis tear downs and I have seen the insides of my last motor that was seafoamed and Zoom Zoom cleaned, and I have seen the insides of others that have been too. I have been present for Zoom Zoom procedures being done and seafoaming and all that is happening is the cleaner is being burned, that is what the smoke is, nothing else.
Does is remove any carbon? Sure, but the amount is miniscule. And whether or not it's dangerous to the cat would depend on the specific makeup of the product used, the amount used and how often I would assume. But if TC3W premix is not good for cats then I don't see how seafoam or zoom zoom cleaner could be.
But believe what you believe but if you argument is based on what manufacturers or dealers recommend then I can't take you seriously. Engineers don't make the final decisions on what is best for for the engine, bean counters and executives do.
11-13-2012, 11:40 AM
#686
No, not to each his own...
The carbon buildup in the side seal and apex seal groves is not coming out with any liquid glitter pissing unicorn product you can find. Unless it finds a way through extremely tight (thousandths of an inch) areas, then somehow makes the carbon magically disappear.
The likely scenario involves instant vaporization and a quick trip out of the exhaust port. It will loosen up some (10-20%) of the sticky carbon found in the engine but the hardened stuff isn't going anywhere.
This is not a piston engine stop comparing it to one.
Both Team, 9k, and myself have taken apart several engines. Your logic is based on faith and guesswork. Ours is based on fact and science.
Yes I know I am being an asshat right now.
You are welcome.
The carbon buildup in the side seal and apex seal groves is not coming out with any liquid glitter pissing unicorn product you can find. Unless it finds a way through extremely tight (thousandths of an inch) areas, then somehow makes the carbon magically disappear.
The likely scenario involves instant vaporization and a quick trip out of the exhaust port. It will loosen up some (10-20%) of the sticky carbon found in the engine but the hardened stuff isn't going anywhere.
This is not a piston engine stop comparing it to one.
Both Team, 9k, and myself have taken apart several engines. Your logic is based on faith and guesswork. Ours is based on fact and science.
Yes I know I am being an asshat right now.
You are welcome.
11-13-2012, 01:23 PM
#687
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Yeah you guys get way too pissed about it.
Calm down lol. It's your car, do as you please. That's why I said: to each his own.
There's no point in arguing this, because you guys just pick apart sentences and scream bloody murder. I'm not comparing it to piston engines - I'm talking about what the product is designed to do. Please tell me how I compared it, since, I really wasn't intending to do so.
My logic isn't based on faith, it's based on real world experiences. Both of you argue is the basis of your standpoint. Cheers.
I can tell your gonna get butt hurt, so chill out.
Calm down lol. It's your car, do as you please. That's why I said: to each his own.
There's no point in arguing this, because you guys just pick apart sentences and scream bloody murder. I'm not comparing it to piston engines - I'm talking about what the product is designed to do. Please tell me how I compared it, since, I really wasn't intending to do so.
My logic isn't based on faith, it's based on real world experiences. Both of you argue is the basis of your standpoint. Cheers.
I can tell your gonna get butt hurt, so chill out.
Last edited by viprez586; 11-13-2012 at 01:25 PM.
No one is butt hurt or pissed. Use that stuff and then post of pics when your engine gets torn down and prove us wrong.
11-29-2012, 02:55 PM
#690
I've actually helped in my first disassembly of a Renesis a few weeks ago. After we got the engine apart we let the irons and rotors sit in a tub filled about 6 inches high with fuel. The fuel was actually really effective in breaking down the carbon buildup on the irons and rotors. We didnt bother soaking the housings since they are most likely unusable.
12-05-2012, 11:25 PM
#693
SARX Legend
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34k original engine tear down. It was "decarbed" twice.
https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...-miles-240782/
https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...-miles-240782/
12-06-2012, 07:17 PM
#694
34k original engine tear down. It was "decarbed" twice.
https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...-miles-240782/
https://www.rx8club.com/tech-garage-...-miles-240782/
this type of engine will get a thin layer of carbon on the rotor tub face as little as 100 miles, that's why Mazda (finally? wtf took this long) to add an extra coating to the bath tub, does it work? no idea. only time will tell.
and problem is most people soak it way too long, or the engine is not even hot enough in the first place
if u see the machine I've seen at a big shop (I mean, huge shop) and how they clean parts, u be shock how well these decarb stuff works when heated. when i go visit next time I will snap a pic, parts in, solution in, heat on, 1 hr later, **** came out like new. w00t
Last edited by nycgps; 12-06-2012 at 07:21 PM.
12-07-2012, 05:36 PM
#695
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Yeah I use to work at a shop with one of those. Using hot steam and a heavy duty degreaser. If you didn't rinse it off afterwards itd flash rust or start to corrode. Cleaned several heavily oil coked engines with it.
I even got a old oil caked 12A rotor spotless with it!
I even got a old oil caked 12A rotor spotless with it!
12-07-2012, 11:20 PM
#696
Yeah I use to work at a shop with one of those. Using hot steam and a heavy duty degreaser. If you didn't rinse it off afterwards itd flash rust or start to corrode. Cleaned several heavily oil coked engines with it.
I even got a old oil caked 12A rotor spotless with it!
I even got a old oil caked 12A rotor spotless with it!
well, most people never seen those before so u cant blame them ... what im trying to point out is those decarb stuff really does work, but only if the part is hot.
thats probably why mazda came out with this zoom zoom pdf in the first place, but most people did it wrong... it will not remove everything but at least it should help
12-14-2012, 08:30 AM
#698
This is something I've been meaning to try ever since I saw a tutorial of it on Youtube somewhere. I could imagine the steam breaking down carbon in the combustion chamber. I dont know the characteristics of seafoam when combusted (even though i've used it before) and if its actually cleaning anything.
From the video the guy/tech sprayed about an ounce of WD40 in a bottle and filled it with water. Then ran the Rx8 and connected a line to the maintenance ports (on the LIM) and revved to 3k and let the engine suck in the water from the bottle (one port at a time).
I know its commonly done among the older rotary engine cars as a decarb. Anyone try this on the 8 with any benefits or ill effects.
12-28-2012, 11:37 AM
#699
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Food for thought here.
We recently took in a 05 RX8 on trade with 67k on it. The engine was replaced second hand and some unknown shop.
Syptoms: Misfire codes, idled rough, lack of power, VERY sluggish in low RPMs and free-revving. 2nd and 3rd gear WOT pulls I barely logged 200 grams/sec. I think the actual highest I logged was 200.6
I waited for work approval and in the meantime checked the plugs. They were okay looking - if i had to guess maybe 10k on them. I cleaned them with my spark plug cleaner (mentioned here ). Then I poured 2.5oz of GM top engine clean down the LIM ports and let the car sit overnight.
Next day took it out for a drive. Slightly more responsive but nothing significant. No logs recorded.
After Christmas I repeated this procedure and again let approximately 3 - 3.5oz of GM top engine cleaner sit overnight (5pm to 8am).
Started car and let it run till the fans kicked on. I then also administered 2oz of GM top engine clean through the 12' o clock hose which runs to the oil injection system.
Pulled the fuel pump fuse, disconnected the fuel feed line and ran our MOC fuel injector/carbon cleaner through it letting the car idle the entire time. I ran approximately ~63 psi in the cannister to simulate fuel system pressure.
Cleared codes and took it for a spin.
Significantly reduced harshness in idle, free-revving and under load. Car is significantly more responsive and revs much quicker.
This time I logged 210.4 grams/sec in a WOT 3rd gear pull.
Back to the shop to change the oil. It smelled terrible as you'd expect. I also looked at the plugs again and gave them a light cleaning since the cleaners made them ever so slightly fouled(but not to the point of misfires)
So what? It gained 10 grams/second. It also runs much better with a lesser harsh idle and is slightly easier to start. The engine I suspect to have low compression since it still lack some smoothness, power, and has difficulty restarting.
I suppose I should also mention the car is completely stock.
Nevertheless the carbon cleaning does net results indefinitely.
We recently took in a 05 RX8 on trade with 67k on it. The engine was replaced second hand and some unknown shop.
Syptoms: Misfire codes, idled rough, lack of power, VERY sluggish in low RPMs and free-revving. 2nd and 3rd gear WOT pulls I barely logged 200 grams/sec. I think the actual highest I logged was 200.6
I waited for work approval and in the meantime checked the plugs. They were okay looking - if i had to guess maybe 10k on them. I cleaned them with my spark plug cleaner (mentioned here ). Then I poured 2.5oz of GM top engine clean down the LIM ports and let the car sit overnight.
Next day took it out for a drive. Slightly more responsive but nothing significant. No logs recorded.
After Christmas I repeated this procedure and again let approximately 3 - 3.5oz of GM top engine cleaner sit overnight (5pm to 8am).
Started car and let it run till the fans kicked on. I then also administered 2oz of GM top engine clean through the 12' o clock hose which runs to the oil injection system.
Pulled the fuel pump fuse, disconnected the fuel feed line and ran our MOC fuel injector/carbon cleaner through it letting the car idle the entire time. I ran approximately ~63 psi in the cannister to simulate fuel system pressure.
Cleared codes and took it for a spin.
Significantly reduced harshness in idle, free-revving and under load. Car is significantly more responsive and revs much quicker.
This time I logged 210.4 grams/sec in a WOT 3rd gear pull.
Back to the shop to change the oil. It smelled terrible as you'd expect. I also looked at the plugs again and gave them a light cleaning since the cleaners made them ever so slightly fouled(but not to the point of misfires)
So what? It gained 10 grams/second. It also runs much better with a lesser harsh idle and is slightly easier to start. The engine I suspect to have low compression since it still lack some smoothness, power, and has difficulty restarting.
I suppose I should also mention the car is completely stock.
Nevertheless the carbon cleaning does net results indefinitely.
Last edited by viprez586; 12-28-2012 at 11:42 AM. Reason: Added link to SP cleaner
01-05-2013, 07:32 AM
#700
water works wonder on rotary, but if u have cat it will cook it pretty fast.
carbon on rotor face has been a problem since 1950s, and it took mazda this long(about 2 yrs ago) to apply that coating on new rotor face to see if it helps.
decarb works if the part is hot, i mean hot, not warm, not cold, it will NOT restore your engine back to 120 psi cuz engine wears overtime and there is nothing you can do about it, but it helps a bit if done properly. many people got the wrong idea of "omg once i do this it will make my engine brand new again and good for anothet 100k!!! "
the side seal spring is an issue though, its kinda hard for the solution to get in there, and the heat plus carbon kills that hair thin seal much faster than it supposed to, when it flattens, there is nothing you can do but an overhaul/rebuild can fix ...
carbon on rotor face has been a problem since 1950s, and it took mazda this long(about 2 yrs ago) to apply that coating on new rotor face to see if it helps.
decarb works if the part is hot, i mean hot, not warm, not cold, it will NOT restore your engine back to 120 psi cuz engine wears overtime and there is nothing you can do about it, but it helps a bit if done properly. many people got the wrong idea of "omg once i do this it will make my engine brand new again and good for anothet 100k!!! "
the side seal spring is an issue though, its kinda hard for the solution to get in there, and the heat plus carbon kills that hair thin seal much faster than it supposed to, when it flattens, there is nothing you can do but an overhaul/rebuild can fix ...
Last edited by nycgps; 01-05-2013 at 07:40 AM.