Footman

iTrader: (2)

Having just Eibach lowering springs on for a month now, I have realized there is definitely some truth when it comes to suspension tuning that many people on the forum have made comments on. When one changes one part, but leaves the rest as stock, there are definitely certain levels of mismatch that is clear to show how well the OEM-setup is put together.

When an entire set of things is engineered together like so, it's hard to go wrong. I'm not saying that the Eibach was more comestic than performance. It definitely is MORE performance... the problem I'm experiencing now is that the rest of the suspension/drivetrain is not up to snuff.

Specifically, during cornering manoeuvres, the Eibach provide a flatter cornering. This flatter cornering in turn puts a different loading on the inside and outside tires to which the LSD is not tuned to grip. The result now is that I get a lot more DCS/TCS interruptions.

I have several postulates.

A) The ability now to take faster and sharper corners with the Eibach is being interpretted as "loss of control" by the DCS/TCS system. and thus it kicks in.

B) I need better tires for better grip on corners.

C) I need better matched sway bars to distribute the tire loading more appropriately.

D) I need better matched shocks to distribute the tire loading more appropriately.

E) I need a different level of slip-percertage for the LSD (not likely something changeable).

F) Some combination of the above.



What do you guys think? I am starting to see now the importance of tuning and parts-matching.

dozer

iTrader: (3)

????? im on RSRs and honestly i dont feel it kick out more i just have way less body roll

shaunv74

Have you gotten an alignment since you put your springs on? If not your camber is different now which could be causing you to slide more. I would look at alignment first.

Kafka

Well, as I've said, get the Bilestein Sprint (aftermarket aka shorter version of the shock from R3/40th anni/Shinka), get the 245 tires...and a good alignment.

Al yelled at me all day when I talked about sawy bars haha...Shocks, Tires and a good alignment should be good enough for your requirements.

More details on the DSC kicks in more scenario please??

millchan

Here is another report from Eibach w/ Stock shocks user.

Eibach, it provides similar comfort as the stock could provide, I cruise around @ limit in city and highway, I feel no different.

When do I feel different,

1. I used to run around Great Blue Heron Casino @ 130 - 150 on the road towards the Casino, my 8 would run smooth with the stock springs. But now, when I run on to that road with Eibach springs...when I hit 130 km/h, the road would make my car feel grumpy and pumping... (I need better shocks I bet)

2. When I go on holes or speed pump, as I am using the Berklin Ipod Fm transmitter, therefore if my ipod receive enough ratio of shock, my song would get interrupt. Before using the Eibach, my stereo would seldom get interrupted but now with Eibach, even tho I feel no different, but my ipod tells me, my springs are a little firmer than before, as I cross by any unpaved roads or hole, my songs would randomly get interrupted or stop playing.

3. With stock vs Eibach, when I do fast cornering, my car just fight back way lesser than before and sensitive. The Eibach could make the car corner better and sensitive in turns. Coz with the Eibach, my car put less gas to make it drift or donut.

Therefore I would say after all I have been driving this car a month+ with this spring.
This spring provides a little bit less comfort and firmer than the stock
This spring makes the car handling better but need to be more skillful to drive
This spring makes the car easy on drifting
This spring makes the car easy to lose traction while cornering by pumping the gas hard.

p.s. These are my comments only, it may not 100% accurate. (Tires, Hankook, Ventus V4 ES H105)

REV-illusions

iTrader: (3)

G) go to the track and learn how to corner at speeds properly.

Footman

iTrader: (2)

What do you want to start now Chris?

nate340

this is why i have yet to modify my car, its not like i dont have money. i've had more than a few track days and **** this car feels so good and well balanced. before i got my 8 i test drove a 350z and down a certain back road it would start to skip across the rd and the traction control would step in due to the overly hard suspension. while my 8 at the very same speed and much higher speeds stays firmly planted and it hovers over the rough roads.

as much as id hate to admit it im starting to beleive alan on what a waste of time it is to mod this car.

i do notice that the added grip of 275/35/18's thu so much fun hunting down other cars thru the corners

rotarygreg

footman, you are overthinking the living **** out of this. I slightly regret modding my suspension, but i guess i hit it just right because i had a compliment from a very experienced person about how well my car is planted. that is clearly dumb luck on my part. I have swift springs and Dspecs as well as an agency power rear sway bar on its stiffer mounting points. I didnt have time to put the front bar on before the last track day, and after driving it like it is and hearing a certain someones opinion on it i wont be installing the front bar. i wont be changing anything. Im going to spend all my time learning to drive the car instead of changing things and having to learn all over again.

sway bars will make your car feel like it handles better on the street because its flatter in the corners. thats it. So if thats what you want, then by all means do that and stop making thread after thread about this.

Footman

iTrader: (2)

I get the feeling that not only does Chris not like me, but I think Greg, you don't like me very much either.

I make a observation that I'd like to share with the community, then ask for some opinions, and I get comments like:

G) go to the track and learn how to corner at speeds properly.

and

"So if thats what you want, then by all means do that and stop making thread after thread about this. "


I am honestly offended by that last line. Your response would have been perfectly fine if you had stopped at the 2nd last sentence. Your last sentence is completely unwelcoming of me ever asking questions again.

rotarygreg

you're right footman. that did come across very bitchy. I have various reasons why im in such a crabby mood. none of them your fault. anyways, you just seem to really be over thinking this like i said. baiscally what im saying is that Al has gone over all this stuff. I beleive there was a big talk about this at the mod meeting which i know you were there for, even though it may have been a few months ago now. If you dont want to just take his word for it, then by all means by the parts and let us know the outcome but if you are talking about real handling improvements that has to be seen on the track, not on the street. Stiffer sway bars will get rid of body roll, making the car feel like it handles better weather or not it actually does. I definitly regret buying sway bars. hell, if you want a front agency power sway bar really cheap to try out I can supply.

I forgot to comment on your DSC/TC thing. I found after i installed my springs the car isnt so mild mannered. When you lose traction things happen fast. As you stiffen the car up im sure the outcome will be that the car will want to brake traction more. you lose that forgiveness that the stock setup offers even if you do improve the handling.

millchan

ooo...this should be a happy community, let's smile :-D
Footman, claim down :-D

nate340

Greg im very surprised that your car isn't very "loose" from your current set up never driven your car and doubtful i ever will but just changing the rear bar on an 8 sounds like a bad idea.

have you noticed your car isnt as neutral over the edge while sliding as it once was?

rotarygreg

nate, I havent ever driven the car quite as hard as i did at shannonville, so the before and after thing is sort of messed up. I can say how i find the car to handle now though. once i got into the track and started picking up the pace a bit i did notice that the back end feels pretty fast when you go into a turn really hot. rolling onto the gas seemed to make the car more neutral. I was never worried about spinning because of it. It always felt manageable once i stopped being a *****. the first couple of times that i felt the back going out mid corner i got worried and cooled down and came into the put. then i let chris take me for a spin. He had nothign but good things to say about the setup. He also made me embrace the oversteer. its not like its a drift car or anything, but the back end feels like it hangs out quite a bit, but is easily corrected and very manageble.

As for the difference on the street, yes, its much more tail happy. i never once spun out all winter. then we had that freek snow storm just after i installed the suspension and spun out coming out of my driveway. lol

prospectjtaz

iTrader: (1)

Well from your three options, b d and c are gonna cost you.

What tires are you gonna go with?

What sways are you gonna go with? As stiff as possible or slighty stiffer.

Are you gonna get shocks that are adjustable or the Bilstein?

With respect to Chris' comment, he hit the nail, maybe its just gonna take you time to learn the new limit of your car. I also think you shouldn't be pushing your car that hard, maybe if you lived where Nate does, not in the GTA.

For your DCS to kick in, you must be really pushing it, or doing something really wrong.

My stability kicked in today, but it makes sense, I am on a staggered set up, since I haven't put the rear springs in.

Personally I did my springs for the drop factor first.

I need more track days under my belt, need to learn how this car drives first.

It it totally worth the money to have Al take you out in your car and show you how well built this car is for the track.

Mods do help thou, of course. I let Lev/Chris Bangle take my car out yesterday for a sprin, he spent 5 to 6K last year on track days and schools, and he was fond of the 245 rubber that's on the 8 and my racing clutch.

nate340

makes sense. cant wait to go to the track with all you guys and find out who's mods really made a difference. i was frustrated at dunnville when there were 2 turbo 8's there and when ever i got behind them they pulled over and let me pass. i really felt that i was a bit faster than them around the track.

prospectjtaz

iTrader: (1)

All of us could have turbos, and you would still beat us Nate, you have too much track experience under your belt, and of course had the car in the same setup longer than us. And at a track like Shannonville, nitrous shot out of the hairpin, will only give me a slight gain, before I slow down again.

REV-illusions

iTrader: (3)

Look.. If you truely want to see how car can handle.. and more importantly.. how you can drive it to the best of your (and the car's) abilities with the current configuration, the track is the only real option. This will allow you to push the car in a safe environment where you don't have to worry about spinning out and damaging the car.. or worse.. hurting someone else.

If you're interested at all in how to setup the car, you need a good starting point (IE knowing exactly how the car reacts in all situations). Once you have that as a base, then you can make some logical choices as to what modifications will suit your needs and driving style the best. It will provide you with a place where you can benchmark your time and allow you to see if what you're doing is helping or not.

Not having the proper foundation can lead you down a very long and costly process of changing things that you may not need too, or worse, changing things to counteract the side effects of earlier modifications.

Remember, just because a product is suppose to improve this or that.. or as shaved seconds off of someone else's lap times does NOT mean that it will do the same for your driving style.

In the end.. to take a page out of your book, I'm just being blunt. No disrespect intended just trying to suggest a valid starting point.

PS: If I didn't like you I wouldn't even bother replying to your posts.

nvx

rev illusions is a pro driver dont mess with him

shazy

REV, you are absolutely correct. Especially when you said that : just because a product is suppose to improve this or that.. or as shaved seconds off of someone else's lap times does NOT mean that it will do the same for your driving style.

It's like the saying goes, you always want to change the world, except for yourself.

Neo

All you guys are modding parts, and you still want DSC to behave the same??
Why are you even worried about DSC? Turn that **** off and learn to drive!!!

Seriously, the thing I hate the most about modern cars is all the electronics. DSC this, TSC that, ATC, etc etc.

When I first drove the Miata you can feel the weight difference from any other car you drive. Immediately you can tell the compromises it had to go through. You can tell the demograph they had in mind was alot more on the cushy side than some die hard enthusiasts.
The DSC/TCS interrupts almost immediately if you take a corner a bit fast. The car rolls like a **** with the stock sways. Not to mention the stock ride height!

When I jump between the FD and any other car, the compromises you have to tolerate become extreme!

So immediately I had some things changed. The sway bars made a phenominal improvement on the car! The rest were merely cosmetic.
Now, the car doesn't roll like a ****. It stays fairly planted and I can enter and exit corners with more confidence. The car sticks really nicely.
Keep in mind I turn off DSC the minute I start the car. It's one of those "pre-flight" things one does. My right hand turns the igntion, simotaniously my left is turning DSC off.
In the Miata DSC is a real PITA. The car is meant to be tossed around, and they tuned the DSC too aggressively.

Now the only thing I feel that limits me from entering and exiting faster are the springs. Everyone knows the Miata (for whatever reason) is raised higher than it should be. The Mazdaspeed springs brings the car back down to a height where it should be.
Once that's done, the car is complete. I won't notice too much difference jumping between Miata and FD. All except for the power that is. But the Miata has plenty of power for a daily driver. The FD will remain a "sunny" day car or a weekend car. That thing can get anyone into trouble quickly!

Footman,

The car is considered "faster" now that you've changed the center of gravity. What you must learn now is to drive the car without DSC on. Once you start to push a car to the limits, having the electronics in play is more lethal than you might think. Learn to turn it off everytime you start the car. Then you'll realize what the car is really doing. You'll start to explore your limits as much as the cars.

REV-illusions

iTrader: (3)

haha.. not even remotely true. I've just enough experience to know that mod's dont mean **** unless you truely understand the limits of your own car and yourself.

Chris_Bangle

iTrader: (2)

Jay,

I appreciate the kind words. In retrospect I probably spend closer to 3000 on schools / driving event rather then 5000. This was my first full season of learning and I barely scratched the surface. If you add the gas/brakes/fluids/accommodations, etc then it should be closer to 4500.

The 245 tires offer allot in terms of grip but I personally prefer the 225s as they give more feedback and allow to play around with the car more. Your clutch should be good on the track.

In terms of changing just the springs - I think this is not the way to go as the stock shock would be inadequate (if you goal is performance). I would go with relatively aggressive bars - RB, moderate springs - RB and Koni shocks (set close to full soft at the back). Add an alignment and a set of R comps and not much will be quicker through the corner at Mosport.

It terms of DCS - I can see no reason for this thing on our cars even in the winter - disabling mine comes as a second nature after 4 years with the rx8.

J03K1LLARX8

iTrader: (1)

lots of hostility for a simple question.

nvx

you should fix your sarcasm meter... it isn't quite working


your first reply was completely uncalled for... added zero value and probably the douche-iest reply i've seen here yet

this place would suck hard if every reply here was similar

your excuse of saying that you're just blunt doesn't work either -- try again.