DSC,,,,,,,on or off ??
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DSC,,,,,,,on or off ??
A month after buying my RX8 I finally received the owners manual,,,,wow,,,and of course like anything else that is " made in Japan " you tend to get an overdose of information.
Like when we used to buy a transistor radio, it always came with a manual, the first twenty pages were showing you how to turn the bloody thing on !! Anyway back to my 8's owners manual, the number of pages just dealing with the advanced key system left me shaken and bewildered, so on this DSC system, when ( if ever ) would you want to disengage, is there an advantage to having it on / off, just curious,,,,,thanks.
Like when we used to buy a transistor radio, it always came with a manual, the first twenty pages were showing you how to turn the bloody thing on !! Anyway back to my 8's owners manual, the number of pages just dealing with the advanced key system left me shaken and bewildered, so on this DSC system, when ( if ever ) would you want to disengage, is there an advantage to having it on / off, just curious,,,,,thanks.
That sounds a little biased. :P
It's helpful to turn it off when you're trying to get moving on a slippery surface. If it's on, the computer will keep cutting power and you won't get anywhere. Have it off for any situation where you actually want the wheels to slip.
It's helpful to turn it off when you're trying to get moving on a slippery surface. If it's on, the computer will keep cutting power and you won't get anywhere. Have it off for any situation where you actually want the wheels to slip.
As aforementioned, in Winter driving there are situations where it's helpful to have it off. For track/autoX it can be helpful off as well. Any other time it's best to leave it on and let the computer protect us from ourselves (same philosophy for ABS brakes, which we can't disengage). 
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I'm not a fan of shielding the driver from what the car is doing, but the RX-8 is fairly twitchy, etc. in slippery conditions. I have to say that I am a fan of this car's stability/traction control in slippery conditions. It keeps the car from sliding around as much and helps control uncontrollable wheel spin in certain situations. Manufacturers often indicate that you may wish to turn it off if you're stuck in the snow and require a little wheelspin to free the car.
In higher grip conditions the stability/traction control actually reduces the capability of the car. Paradoxically, the ability of a decent drive to to avoid an accident, etc. is actually diminished. Not to mention it reduces the potential for fun.
You'll notice with it on in the that you can't use the throttle to rotate the car very much and the traction control is pretty aggressive about limiting even minor loss of traction.
In higher grip conditions the stability/traction control actually reduces the capability of the car. Paradoxically, the ability of a decent drive to to avoid an accident, etc. is actually diminished. Not to mention it reduces the potential for fun.
You'll notice with it on in the that you can't use the throttle to rotate the car very much and the traction control is pretty aggressive about limiting even minor loss of traction.
Last edited by Snrub; Feb 17, 2010 at 11:13 AM.
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The car is new to you leave it on till you have a way better feel for the car, then play with it. Mine is on 99% of the time. If it was about 10-20% less aggressive/responsive, you would never want to turn it off. The reason it comes on is because it thinks you are out of control, which is never a bad case when you are. I never turned mine off in the winter and I never got stuck or spun around sideways which is what I was going for.
Leave it on safe bet!
Enjoy the car!
Leave it on safe bet!
Enjoy the car!
Spinning Dorito Junkie
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+1 maskedferret
I actually ended up leaving the DSC on during HPDEs. I find if you are smooth, the car lets you get away with as much as you should be doing during an HPDE before it intervenes. If it kicks in, you were probably doing something you shouldn't have been. (Plus, I don't go 10/10s during an HPDE with the RX8, that's what the RX7 is for.)
During an autocross, with the much faster transitions, I found it confused the heck out of the DSC, so off it went.
I actually ended up leaving the DSC on during HPDEs. I find if you are smooth, the car lets you get away with as much as you should be doing during an HPDE before it intervenes. If it kicks in, you were probably doing something you shouldn't have been. (Plus, I don't go 10/10s during an HPDE with the RX8, that's what the RX7 is for.)
During an autocross, with the much faster transitions, I found it confused the heck out of the DSC, so off it went.
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+1 maskedferret
I actually ended up leaving the DSC on during HPDEs. I find if you are smooth, the car lets you get away with as much as you should be doing during an HPDE before it intervenes. If it kicks in, you were probably doing something you shouldn't have been. (Plus, I don't go 10/10s during an HPDE with the RX8, that's what the RX7 is for.)
During an autocross, with the much faster transitions, I found it confused the heck out of the DSC, so off it went.
I actually ended up leaving the DSC on during HPDEs. I find if you are smooth, the car lets you get away with as much as you should be doing during an HPDE before it intervenes. If it kicks in, you were probably doing something you shouldn't have been. (Plus, I don't go 10/10s during an HPDE with the RX8, that's what the RX7 is for.)
During an autocross, with the much faster transitions, I found it confused the heck out of the DSC, so off it went.
I've known 3 cases of crashes that could have been saved by DSC. One totalled the car due to a mal-function DSC; one crashesd the car in togue style run (Probably with it OFF); one went off track in HPDE with a bruised ego(DSC OFF who need DSC when you own on 1st time @ track right lol). I was lucky to be the last case.
In normal condition, keep it on since you probably not the top 5% of drivers that can make use of the advatange of true DSC off on a public road.
In raining / slippery condition, having it on save you from unexpected crashes. Its only when you have difficulty getting traction to move then you should tempeorary disengage it to let the spinning helps you get moving...
Take a look at the following video and see how the Rx8 spin with DSC off @ 2:55/4:40 against on @ 1:57
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In HPDE condition, if you're a newbie, leave the fcking thing on. As previous posters mentioned, if it flashes on you that means you fcked up something and not driving smoothly, which is what you should improve on.
Take a look at this video below.
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At 0:56 for the famous Tusbuka laptime it is about 1.2 second difference between DSC on and DSC full off driven by a professional race car driver. Do you really care about that much difference on public roads?
Even for HPDE, it smore to protect you from your own stupidity (It did for me in Mosport both with race tires and without race tires).
I have not participate in Autocross competition (its a competition...I guess that 1.2sec counts!!!) so I won't comment.
In a nutshell,
If you want to go around with the computer in control to protect you from your own stupidity, leave DSC on.
If you want to pretend that you are the next Lewis Hamilton, turn it off and remember to post in FS forums for salvageable parts after you crash.
Last edited by Kafka; Feb 17, 2010 at 04:25 PM.
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On the street leave it on but if you go to the track turn it off, otherwise your not learning anything. I drive a base model so I don't have it and I drive an RX-7 in the summer which never had traction control and I don't have any need for it but other less experienced or distracted drivers will benefit to have it on.
thewird
thewird
Last edited by thewird; Feb 17, 2010 at 08:42 PM.
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Well if theres one place you can turn it off its probably the track.
I did and I spun out. I am not as well funded as some people on the forum here, I have only one car. So I will take my risk appetite and adjust accordingly.
You learn a lot even with it on. I dunno what you're talking about, but even my driving instructors have it on and its not only 1 instructor. even semi-pro level. They drive much faster than me in my own car but never triggered the Rx8 DSC...I admit I am a noob on track, but when a driving instructor commented that the limit of the Rx8 DSC is high and he kept it on while chasing and overtaking a full caged mazdaspeed rx8 race car in Mosport big track, I think I am ok with it on for that additional safety.
Oh well, maybe the 1.2 sec difference is the time you looking to kill - for Rx8 at least. Maybe your Rx7 is different. But based on my noob experience I will probably keep it on for awhile even at the track until I am more comfortable with the car...
Have you tried the Rx8 with DSC on the track yet? Whats your plan with your Rx8 beater this summer? Very excited to see what you will do with the lesser Rx8...it can be a track + beater car right?:P
I did and I spun out. I am not as well funded as some people on the forum here, I have only one car. So I will take my risk appetite and adjust accordingly.
You learn a lot even with it on. I dunno what you're talking about, but even my driving instructors have it on and its not only 1 instructor. even semi-pro level. They drive much faster than me in my own car but never triggered the Rx8 DSC...I admit I am a noob on track, but when a driving instructor commented that the limit of the Rx8 DSC is high and he kept it on while chasing and overtaking a full caged mazdaspeed rx8 race car in Mosport big track, I think I am ok with it on for that additional safety.
Oh well, maybe the 1.2 sec difference is the time you looking to kill - for Rx8 at least. Maybe your Rx7 is different. But based on my noob experience I will probably keep it on for awhile even at the track until I am more comfortable with the car...
Have you tried the Rx8 with DSC on the track yet? Whats your plan with your Rx8 beater this summer? Very excited to see what you will do with the lesser Rx8...it can be a track + beater car right?:P
Last edited by Kafka; Feb 17, 2010 at 08:54 PM.
My first few autocrosses I was not even turning it off all the way (just one poke), but then one time there was a very nasty right left transition after some trail braking and I felt a little tugging and I realized it was still on...I then figured out how to turn it off all the way by holding it down for several seconds. 
On the street it is always on unless I am trying to get going in deep snow. If I ever make it to the track, this thread has convinced me to keep it on at least until I am as proficient as McDreamy.
On the street it is always on unless I am trying to get going in deep snow. If I ever make it to the track, this thread has convinced me to keep it on at least until I am as proficient as McDreamy.
Last edited by boffam; Feb 17, 2010 at 09:18 PM.
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When instructors drive your car, they aren't driving it at the limit. They don't want to go over the limit and risk anything on a car that isn't theirs when its not needed to show you the general lines at speed. They are driving "correctly" and smoothly so the DSC has no business intervening. The fact that you spun out when you turned off the DSC, showed you that you were doing something wrong and relying on the DSC to correct it for you. Did you not take that corner with more care the next time around?
1.2 seconds may not sound like a lot of time but on a track like Tsukuba where the fast cars are in the 0:50's, those 1.2 seconds are actually a huge deal. On bigger tracks, that the time would be even more. On a track like Shannonville, that might 2.5 seconds or more even since there is a lot more corners.
But like I said, there is no reason to turn it off on the street unless your stuck or in very slippery conditions. Turning it off in slippery conditions requires you to know what your doing though.
On a side note, the OEM RX-8 tires suck in the wet/slippery conditions. It's a low treadwear dry performance tire. The first day I drove my RX-8, I put it sideways twice and I wasn't even driving aggressive, it was just a little wet. The car handles quite well and going sideways isn't new to me so it was quite undramatic but I didn't expect it to be that bad. I have quality snow tires on it now (blizzak lm-60) and its a completely driving experience. The car grips in any condition and its no longer tail happy when its wet. I quite enjoy doing the 2nd gear snow drifts around corners and the car stabilizing back as soon as I want it to. Being able to steer the car completely with the throttle.
thewird
1.2 seconds may not sound like a lot of time but on a track like Tsukuba where the fast cars are in the 0:50's, those 1.2 seconds are actually a huge deal. On bigger tracks, that the time would be even more. On a track like Shannonville, that might 2.5 seconds or more even since there is a lot more corners.
But like I said, there is no reason to turn it off on the street unless your stuck or in very slippery conditions. Turning it off in slippery conditions requires you to know what your doing though.
On a side note, the OEM RX-8 tires suck in the wet/slippery conditions. It's a low treadwear dry performance tire. The first day I drove my RX-8, I put it sideways twice and I wasn't even driving aggressive, it was just a little wet. The car handles quite well and going sideways isn't new to me so it was quite undramatic but I didn't expect it to be that bad. I have quality snow tires on it now (blizzak lm-60) and its a completely driving experience. The car grips in any condition and its no longer tail happy when its wet. I quite enjoy doing the 2nd gear snow drifts around corners and the car stabilizing back as soon as I want it to. Being able to steer the car completely with the throttle.
thewird
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In the dry I normally shut off the stability/traction control immediately after turning the car on. I find there are a couple of corners I like to take where the stability control will come on at 8/10ths or so. It always freaks me out when I forget to turn it off, take a usual corner and the stability control trys to reign it in.
I can't imagine autoX with stability control on, you need to rotate the car and there are times where it's faster to slide the car.
I think stability control engagement depends somewhat on the radius of the corner. In some tighter corners you need to use more throttle to rotate the car, whereas on a faster corner you only need a little bit of throttle to plant the rear. In other words I can see how it could have less impact than one might imagine on some road courses.
Launching with the traction control in grippy situations sucks. It's setup not so much to help you gain optimal traction, but to stop the behavior from occurring.
I read a great quote in a C&D a while ago. It was from a Michelin behavioural tire engineer. He said something to the effect of given the choice between pulling 0.4gs and hitting a tree, most people pick the tree. If this wasn't true I think the stability/traction control could be calibrated such that it was a true enhancement in all conditions.
I can't imagine autoX with stability control on, you need to rotate the car and there are times where it's faster to slide the car.
I think stability control engagement depends somewhat on the radius of the corner. In some tighter corners you need to use more throttle to rotate the car, whereas on a faster corner you only need a little bit of throttle to plant the rear. In other words I can see how it could have less impact than one might imagine on some road courses.
Launching with the traction control in grippy situations sucks. It's setup not so much to help you gain optimal traction, but to stop the behavior from occurring.
I read a great quote in a C&D a while ago. It was from a Michelin behavioural tire engineer. He said something to the effect of given the choice between pulling 0.4gs and hitting a tree, most people pick the tree. If this wasn't true I think the stability/traction control could be calibrated such that it was a true enhancement in all conditions.
Last edited by Snrub; Feb 18, 2010 at 08:12 AM.
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Well first off, HPDE is not timed and you're not in a race. You still learn to improve your skills with DSC on. You can improve your driving skills within the limit. DSC on just lower that limit a bit. I am not up to the level where DSC is pulling my leg.
Hence, logically, I prefer I made a mistake and learn from it with minimum consequences. For a newbie like me, I prefer to see the DSC comes on in one corner and realize "you fcked up boy" than to have DSC off and see my car spun towards the barrier.
Did you not take that corner with more care the next time around? Yes. The difference with DSC on is that I survived it with less drama than fish tail -> spun off.
Second, I wish I can haz your skills...how many years you spend on tracking and learning to master the Rx7?
Finally, its your car. Enjoy it the way you like according to your comfortablility.
Snrub: "...pulling 0.4gs and hitting a tree, most people pick the tree. If this wasn't true I think the stability/traction control could be calibrated such that it was a true enhancement in all conditions. "
I will hit the tree too since I don't now how heavy it is to pull 0.4g...hitting a tree with my first is not that hard and does not hurt that much lol
Watch this video. I bet 99% of the population drive SLOWER with the computer off in that car!
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When instructors drive your car, they aren't driving it at the limit. They don't want to go over the limit and risk anything on a car that isn't theirs when its not needed to show you the general lines at speed. They are driving "correctly" and smoothly so the DSC has no business intervening. The fact that you spun out when you turned off the DSC, showed you that you were doing something wrong and relying on the DSC to correct it for you. Did you not take that corner with more care the next time around?
1.2 seconds may not sound like a lot of time but on a track like Tsukuba where the fast cars are in the 0:50's, those 1.2 seconds are actually a huge deal. On bigger tracks, that the time would be even more. On a track like Shannonville, that might 2.5 seconds or more even since there is a lot more corners.
But like I said, there is no reason to turn it off on the street unless your stuck or in very slippery conditions. Turning it off in slippery conditions requires you to know what your doing though.
On a side note, the OEM RX-8 tires suck in the wet/slippery conditions. It's a low treadwear dry performance tire. The first day I drove my RX-8, I put it sideways twice and I wasn't even driving aggressive, it was just a little wet. The car handles quite well and going sideways isn't new to me so it was quite undramatic but I didn't expect it to be that bad. I have quality snow tires on it now (blizzak lm-60) and its a completely driving experience. The car grips in any condition and its no longer tail happy when its wet. I quite enjoy doing the 2nd gear snow drifts around corners and the car stabilizing back as soon as I want it to. Being able to steer the car completely with the throttle.
thewird
1.2 seconds may not sound like a lot of time but on a track like Tsukuba where the fast cars are in the 0:50's, those 1.2 seconds are actually a huge deal. On bigger tracks, that the time would be even more. On a track like Shannonville, that might 2.5 seconds or more even since there is a lot more corners.
But like I said, there is no reason to turn it off on the street unless your stuck or in very slippery conditions. Turning it off in slippery conditions requires you to know what your doing though.
On a side note, the OEM RX-8 tires suck in the wet/slippery conditions. It's a low treadwear dry performance tire. The first day I drove my RX-8, I put it sideways twice and I wasn't even driving aggressive, it was just a little wet. The car handles quite well and going sideways isn't new to me so it was quite undramatic but I didn't expect it to be that bad. I have quality snow tires on it now (blizzak lm-60) and its a completely driving experience. The car grips in any condition and its no longer tail happy when its wet. I quite enjoy doing the 2nd gear snow drifts around corners and the car stabilizing back as soon as I want it to. Being able to steer the car completely with the throttle.
thewird
Well first off, HPDE is not timed and you're not in a race. You still learn to improve your skills with DSC on. You can improve your driving skills within the limit. DSC on just lower that limit a bit. I am not up to the level where DSC is pulling my leg.
Hence, logically, I prefer I made a mistake and learn from it with minimum consequences. For a newbie like me, I prefer to see the DSC comes on in one corner and realize "you fcked up boy" than to have DSC off and see my car spun towards the barrier.
Did you not take that corner with more care the next time around? Yes. The difference with DSC on is that I survived it with less drama than fish tail -> spun off.
Second, I wish I can haz your skills...how many years you spend on tracking and learning to master the Rx7?
Finally, its your car. Enjoy it the way you like according to your comfortablility.
Snrub: "...pulling 0.4gs and hitting a tree, most people pick the tree. If this wasn't true I think the stability/traction control could be calibrated such that it was a true enhancement in all conditions. "
I will hit the tree too since I don't now how heavy it is to pull 0.4g...hitting a tree with my first is not that hard and does not hurt that much lol
Watch this video. I bet 99% of the population drive SLOWER with the computer off in that car!
[EMBED]<!--2f5f54e874579451638cb07fe1ed3ea7--><object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/T-trtyK8xTs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="AllowsSriptAccess" value="never"></param><!--2f5f54e874579451638cb07fe1ed3ea7--><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/T-trtyK8xTs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" AllowScriptAccess="never" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/EMBED]
OFF 100% of the time (summer, winter and track). I can see a good system being useful on a higher hp car. Don't know why you would need it on a car like the rx8.
RWD, a nimble chassis and a proper LSD (not the ***** on those ultimate posing machines) = FUN
Kafka please don't confuse the system on a 458 with the one on our car
RWD, a nimble chassis and a proper LSD (not the ***** on those ultimate posing machines) = FUN
Kafka please don't confuse the system on a 458 with the one on our car
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The Ferrari traction control is nothing compared to the RX-8's DSC. It was designed with going fast on a track in mind and has various modes with how much control you want to give to it. Ferrari has their own test track which they test and optimize every car on. The time difference between race mode and traction control off (driven by a professional driver) on a Ferrari would be very small.
Also, I LOL'd when he said he had to short-shift to keep the tires from slipping when he turned everything off. The accelerator pedal exists for a reason, otherwise it would just be a button that did full throttle.
Also, I can't exactly say I have mastered the RX-7 lol. I know there is a lot more to go and every track day I learn something new whether I realize what it is or not. I've been tracking for over 2 years now and have over 30 track days under my belt. Next up is actual racing, maybe this year I'll get my racing license.... My RX-7 doesn't have traction control, its pulling somewhere between 400 and 500 HP at the wheels, I go faster then A LOT of fully stripped race cars, the car has never once had an accident.
thewird
Also, I LOL'd when he said he had to short-shift to keep the tires from slipping when he turned everything off. The accelerator pedal exists for a reason, otherwise it would just be a button that did full throttle.
Also, I can't exactly say I have mastered the RX-7 lol. I know there is a lot more to go and every track day I learn something new whether I realize what it is or not. I've been tracking for over 2 years now and have over 30 track days under my belt
. Next up is actual racing, maybe this year I'll get my racing license.... My RX-7 doesn't have traction control, its pulling somewhere between 400 and 500 HP at the wheels, I go faster then A LOT of fully stripped race cars, the car has never once had an accident.thewird
Last edited by thewird; Feb 18, 2010 at 02:53 PM.
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Trust me Kafka, you've pulled .4Gs.
Track driving is very difficult. It takes real skill to be good at it and I'm not (and it's been forever!). However, if the stability control is holding me back on my drive to work, I'm pretty sure it's going to hold you back after your first lapping day or so. It coming on doesn't necessarily mean you messed up.
Track driving is very difficult. It takes real skill to be good at it and I'm not (and it's been forever!). However, if the stability control is holding me back on my drive to work, I'm pretty sure it's going to hold you back after your first lapping day or so. It coming on doesn't necessarily mean you messed up.
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You're probably right chris_bangle, the rx8 is a very forgiving RWD car. However its my first so I gotta be more careful. I have crashing experience in FWD and I don't want to have crashing experience in RWD lolz (I did have one on track albeit its under controlled environment)
Are you gonna enter regional race with the Rx7 wird???? that will be so fooking cool. We need a reason to go this season after Al's gave up on his bitch....oops I mean Christine...
Oh yeah..the F458 system owns! Somehow I like it much better than the old-skool F355-360-430...its almost like a sci-fi car to me. If it got KERS then I can see it being the pace car in "Cyber Formula FX" lol
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Snrub, the DSC lightning up when you are out of a corner power shifting doesn't count :P Join us to the track this summer man!
I am glad we have a wonderful conversation here with this topic
btw, nice found of factory fighter race ... and woot the 4.77 geared mazdaspeed rx8 slower than the OEM rx8 wtfbbq?
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Are you gonna enter regional race with the Rx7 wird???? that will be so fooking cool. We need a reason to go this season after Al's gave up on his bitch....oops I mean Christine...
Oh yeah..the F458 system owns! Somehow I like it much better than the old-skool F355-360-430...its almost like a sci-fi car to me. If it got KERS then I can see it being the pace car in "Cyber Formula FX" lol
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Snrub, the DSC lightning up when you are out of a corner power shifting doesn't count :P Join us to the track this summer man!
I am glad we have a wonderful conversation here with this topic
btw, nice found of factory fighter race ... and woot the 4.77 geared mazdaspeed rx8 slower than the OEM rx8 wtfbbq?
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Last edited by Kafka; Feb 18, 2010 at 03:32 PM.
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One time I had to panic stop on the 404 SB near Don Mills south where all the banked curves are, going from 100 km/h to 40 in the blink of an eye. When you're boxed in on all sides and have no run-off, you'll be glad your DSC is working correctly.
Last edited by climacus; Feb 18, 2010 at 07:00 PM.
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thewird
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I miss tracking badly. Unfortunately I need to wait a couple more years until the car has less value and I have more money. I'm going to stick to AutoX this year and try to go more often. Shockingly, I actually did well at one last year. http://www.wosca.com/Event_Results/S...-2-Results.htm (note the time relative to the multi-time provincial/regional champ on a tight course and 280 vs. 140 tires. It was also a very tight course)
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