CEL thrown: P0300, P2097, P0172
01-31-2008, 12:54 PM
#76
Victoria, Michael, Paul, Russ, are all on first name basis now with me at Scarborough Mazda. Yes that's my car sitting there. That day they changed the ignition coils.
I am only asking everyone to try it to hold the revs between 7000 - 9000, whether you can do for even more than 15 seconds with no stuttering, CEL blinking, and just pure smoothness...
Then let me know whether you have an MS CAI or not. Thanks everyone.
I am only asking everyone to try it to hold the revs between 7000 - 9000, whether you can do for even more than 15 seconds with no stuttering, CEL blinking, and just pure smoothness...
Then let me know whether you have an MS CAI or not. Thanks everyone.
01-31-2008, 05:00 PM
#78
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My car has the SAME issue ONLY when it's raining out... and I was guessing that's the water getting into the filter~
When it's dry it'd never have a problem getting/ staying in that RPM range with a CEL
When it's dry it'd never have a problem getting/ staying in that RPM range with a CEL
01-31-2008, 10:05 PM
#81
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i have the K&N drop in filter, i dont have any cell's at high rpm even when held for extended periods of time. i've had the coolant light come on once before thu. im assuming i just need to add some coolant.
02-01-2008, 05:00 AM
#82
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The question is, does this occur under load (open loop) or no load (closed loop) conditions or even part load. You said there is no problem when you floor it to redline. The problem seems to occur under part load (moderate throttle to redline). Try reving moderately to redline in neutral, 1st, 2nd to 4th. Does this happen in neutral and all gears?
Last edited by HEVNSNT; 02-01-2008 at 05:09 AM.
02-01-2008, 07:55 AM
#83
Update
It's back in the dealer yesterday. This time, I got the master mechanic to ride with me and I showed him my symptoms. The car is still in the shop right now; preliminary, he suspects it's a bad CAT because the problem only occurs between 6000 - redline. He explains that if the cat is clogged, there will be a lot of back pressure and thus the engine isn't able to breathe right since the exhaust gases are backing up into the combustion chamber.
At WOT, the force of pumping is sufficient enough to overcome the current blockage; hence at light to medium throttle I am getting extreme sputtering in that range because a moderate throttle isn't generating enough force to expel the exhaust.
Because the engine detects knocking from the exhaust gases backing up into the intake/combustion of the next cycles in the rotary engine it isn't able to properly ignite because the mixture is contaminated, it throws a P0300 code. The unburnt fuel is further dumped into the Cat causing the P2097 Catalyst fuel trim - system too rich, which is also tied to P0172 system too rich.
This is the preliminary analysis.
Recap:
1) Spark plugs replaced
2) MAF sensor cleaned
3) Ignition coils replaced
4) verified that MS CAI filter is clean and dry (sock is clean)
5) verified that all vacuum hoses from MS CAI are not loose
6) idle is good, RPM range from 0 - 5000 is usable smoothly.
7) mechanic has tested the stock plug wires for leaks and deterioration and they checked out okay; so they were not replaced.
At WOT, the force of pumping is sufficient enough to overcome the current blockage; hence at light to medium throttle I am getting extreme sputtering in that range because a moderate throttle isn't generating enough force to expel the exhaust.
Because the engine detects knocking from the exhaust gases backing up into the intake/combustion of the next cycles in the rotary engine it isn't able to properly ignite because the mixture is contaminated, it throws a P0300 code. The unburnt fuel is further dumped into the Cat causing the P2097 Catalyst fuel trim - system too rich, which is also tied to P0172 system too rich.
This is the preliminary analysis.
Recap:
1) Spark plugs replaced
2) MAF sensor cleaned
3) Ignition coils replaced
4) verified that MS CAI filter is clean and dry (sock is clean)
5) verified that all vacuum hoses from MS CAI are not loose
6) idle is good, RPM range from 0 - 5000 is usable smoothly.
7) mechanic has tested the stock plug wires for leaks and deterioration and they checked out okay; so they were not replaced.
02-01-2008, 08:33 AM
#84
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sucks if its your cat....they are 1400+ from the dealer...but at 31/2 months you mat be covered??? I just sold my stock one a while back.........but if you do have to replace it it give you a really good excuse to but an aftermarket one.
02-01-2008, 08:37 AM
#85
If it is the CAT, it has to be covered by warranty. At 3.5 months, I'm not even out of the complimentary 12 month free-adjustment period yet!!! let alone the 3 year - 80,000 bumper to bumper.... YET LET ALONE the 120,000 emissions component warranty!!! ahahahahahaha
Actually if it's any part failing now.. it should be 100% warranty covered.
Actually if it's any part failing now.. it should be 100% warranty covered.
Last edited by Footman; 02-01-2008 at 10:43 AM.
02-01-2008, 12:24 PM
#86
Update
Dealer called to tell me that the CAT is tested fine.
They said the MS CAI is not designed for cold weather and this happens only in winter when it's cold.
My options now are to:
A) Keep the MS CAI and drive below 5000rpm until weather is warmer, thus every winter, I cannot drive it above 5000rpm.
B) Put the stock intake back on should fix the problem.
This is my all year round car. What do you guys think? I have to use this car to get to work, I have no other car to use.
They said the MS CAI is not designed for cold weather and this happens only in winter when it's cold.
My options now are to:
A) Keep the MS CAI and drive below 5000rpm until weather is warmer, thus every winter, I cannot drive it above 5000rpm.
B) Put the stock intake back on should fix the problem.
This is my all year round car. What do you guys think? I have to use this car to get to work, I have no other car to use.
02-01-2008, 12:42 PM
#88
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I think your dealer is just trying duck out of finding out what the problem really is with your car by blaming the performance add on. I have a 2007 RX-8 that I got last february. I had the mazdaspeed CAI installed in april since they didn't have those performance packages in yet. I still drive my car in the winter and there is no stuttering or CEL flashing in the 6000-9000 rpm range. I can drive in that range anywhere from very low throttle to very high throttle (and everything in between). I've only tried it in 1st and 2nd gear, but the car does drive fine. I have some very small sputtering in first around 8000 rpm with low throttle but when I moved up to moderate throttle it went away.
It can't be or shouldn't be the CAI. If it's not doing it for me it shouldn't be happening to you. I dunno what to say but it may be related to something else.
Oh and just to make it even more relavant, I also live in Scarborough (Markham and Lawrence) so weather conditions are IDENTICAL to where you are. Hope that helps. Any more questions let me know.
P.S. My car has 15,400 Km
It can't be or shouldn't be the CAI. If it's not doing it for me it shouldn't be happening to you. I dunno what to say but it may be related to something else.
Oh and just to make it even more relavant, I also live in Scarborough (Markham and Lawrence) so weather conditions are IDENTICAL to where you are. Hope that helps. Any more questions let me know.
P.S. My car has 15,400 Km
Last edited by AmKorp; 02-01-2008 at 12:44 PM.
02-01-2008, 12:56 PM
#89
Well,
What I'm going to do is change the stock one back in, and have the mechanic test drive it with me right there once its done to verify that's the issue.
I asked if they've done a compression test, and they said they didn't because no problems were found relating to it. I asked can they do it, and they said no.
If after the stock intake is back on, and it still does that... man I don't know what could be wrong
Recap:
a) Spark plugs changed
b) Ignition coils changed
c) Plug wires tested OK
d) CAT tested OK
e) MAF cleaned
f) MS CAI air filter verified to be clean and free of water/ice on sock
g) MS CAI blamed for problem due to extreme cold weather and is not good for engine
What I'm going to do is change the stock one back in, and have the mechanic test drive it with me right there once its done to verify that's the issue.
I asked if they've done a compression test, and they said they didn't because no problems were found relating to it. I asked can they do it, and they said no.
If after the stock intake is back on, and it still does that... man I don't know what could be wrong
Recap:
a) Spark plugs changed
b) Ignition coils changed
c) Plug wires tested OK
d) CAT tested OK
e) MAF cleaned
f) MS CAI air filter verified to be clean and free of water/ice on sock
g) MS CAI blamed for problem due to extreme cold weather and is not good for engine
02-01-2008, 01:23 PM
#90
Amkorp, does it have to do with the fact you have the MS Dual can exhaust and I don't? Would the MS dual can exhaust match the breathability at the back end of your engine to your MS CAI in the front because I only have the CAI, but stock exhaust.
02-01-2008, 01:55 PM
#91
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Hmm, that's a good question. Your dealer first stated that the issue was in your CAT and then in your CAI. Both those items are well before the exhaust piping.
But then they also said your CAT was ok. So it may be related to exhaust restriction. However, that would be a design flaw on Mazda's part, seeing as they were going to sell this car in our climate as well as offer the CAI to us, I really don't think they were expecting all owners to buy a dual can mazdaspeed exhaust as well, that's just stupid. You shouldn't be having this problem even with the stock exhaust.
But like you've mentioned, you'll know for sure after installing the stock airbox.
I've got a questions for you, when you hit the rpm range that is giving you problems, are the RPMs bouncing up and down or do the RPMs stay constant but you lose power?
But then they also said your CAT was ok. So it may be related to exhaust restriction. However, that would be a design flaw on Mazda's part, seeing as they were going to sell this car in our climate as well as offer the CAI to us, I really don't think they were expecting all owners to buy a dual can mazdaspeed exhaust as well, that's just stupid. You shouldn't be having this problem even with the stock exhaust.
But like you've mentioned, you'll know for sure after installing the stock airbox.
I've got a questions for you, when you hit the rpm range that is giving you problems, are the RPMs bouncing up and down or do the RPMs stay constant but you lose power?
02-01-2008, 02:08 PM
#92
the RPMs bounce up and down.. you hear a chopping sound, like something fluttering...
again, this is between 6000 - redline at light - medium throttle. The ONLY remedy while you're in that zone is to give it more gas, in which it will jump to the next "maintainable rpm" at that throttle position.. (i.e. stuttering at 6400rpm.. suddenly jolt it with more pressure and hold the higher throttle, then it will go to 7500rpm, and then stutter there.
However you can FLOOR it anywhere between those RPMs, and it will go straight to redline *somewhat smoothly* and the you shift.
As long as you aren't holding the throttle around 6000 - redline, you will not get a blinking CEL. It only happens if you try to hold it in that range, not even for 5 seconds, and it will stutter and CEL flashes.
again, this is between 6000 - redline at light - medium throttle. The ONLY remedy while you're in that zone is to give it more gas, in which it will jump to the next "maintainable rpm" at that throttle position.. (i.e. stuttering at 6400rpm.. suddenly jolt it with more pressure and hold the higher throttle, then it will go to 7500rpm, and then stutter there.
However you can FLOOR it anywhere between those RPMs, and it will go straight to redline *somewhat smoothly* and the you shift.
As long as you aren't holding the throttle around 6000 - redline, you will not get a blinking CEL. It only happens if you try to hold it in that range, not even for 5 seconds, and it will stutter and CEL flashes.
02-01-2008, 03:58 PM
#93
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I don't think it's the cat. Even if the cat was clogged, it didn't clogg itself, some other problem would have caused it to clogg. And because your car is practically new I doubt it's a clogged cat.
Under light throttle/cruise conditions, the car is in closed loop condition. Fuel enrichment is fine tuned according to O2 sensor readings.
Under moderate/wide open throttle conditions, the car is in open loop condition. Fuel enrichment is predefined (preprogrammed) based on mapping of the throttle position and MAF readings.
Is the problem occuring in closed loop (light throttle) or open loop (heavy throttle)?
Under light throttle/cruise conditions, the car is in closed loop condition. Fuel enrichment is fine tuned according to O2 sensor readings.
Under moderate/wide open throttle conditions, the car is in open loop condition. Fuel enrichment is predefined (preprogrammed) based on mapping of the throttle position and MAF readings.
Is the problem occuring in closed loop (light throttle) or open loop (heavy throttle)?
02-01-2008, 08:51 PM
#95
I am The One!
I think the computer is the one not feeding enough fuel into the car with light/medium throttle.
As you mentioned, if you give it more fuel it'll go up and move into the next mappable range.
I honestly have no idea why you would be running the car at such high revs and maintaining it at that level???
How often do you do this? Do you actually drive around town always in the upper range???
Most of the time people shift between 4000-5000rpm, sometimes earlier.
Rarely do people hold the throttle very lightly in the 6000-9000rpm range. Most of the time they have the throttle pinned to the floor and the computer is dumping as much fuel as it can into the car.
These suckers serge in light throttle with normal weather conditions.
So you can imagine what it's going to do when the weather dips below 0C.
If you want to keep the CAI on the car, then you'll have to learn not to drive lightly in the 6000-9000rpm range. Or you can simply install the stock air intake and be done with it. Possibly swap out the element with a K&N or something like that.
I think exposing the intake directly to the elements is a bad idea if you're going to be running the car all year long.
It's great during the spring/summer/fall months. But winter comes around and now you have slush and ice hitting the intake. Regardless of it being protected or not.
Since this is your year-round vehicle, I would install the stock air intake box and switch out the element.
I'm sure there'll be buyers for the CAI.
As you mentioned, if you give it more fuel it'll go up and move into the next mappable range.
I honestly have no idea why you would be running the car at such high revs and maintaining it at that level???
How often do you do this? Do you actually drive around town always in the upper range???
Most of the time people shift between 4000-5000rpm, sometimes earlier.
Rarely do people hold the throttle very lightly in the 6000-9000rpm range. Most of the time they have the throttle pinned to the floor and the computer is dumping as much fuel as it can into the car.
These suckers serge in light throttle with normal weather conditions.
So you can imagine what it's going to do when the weather dips below 0C.
If you want to keep the CAI on the car, then you'll have to learn not to drive lightly in the 6000-9000rpm range. Or you can simply install the stock air intake and be done with it. Possibly swap out the element with a K&N or something like that.
I think exposing the intake directly to the elements is a bad idea if you're going to be running the car all year long.
It's great during the spring/summer/fall months. But winter comes around and now you have slush and ice hitting the intake. Regardless of it being protected or not.
Since this is your year-round vehicle, I would install the stock air intake box and switch out the element.
I'm sure there'll be buyers for the CAI.
02-02-2008, 01:03 PM
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I think your dealer is just trying duck out of finding out what the problem really is with your car by blaming the performance add on. I have a 2007 RX-8 that I got last february. I had the mazdaspeed CAI installed in april since they didn't have those performance packages in yet. I still drive my car in the winter and there is no stuttering or CEL flashing in the 6000-9000 rpm range. I can drive in that range anywhere from very low throttle to very high throttle (and everything in between). I've only tried it in 1st and 2nd gear, but the car does drive fine. I have some very small sputtering in first around 8000 rpm with low throttle but when I moved up to moderate throttle it went away.
It can't be or shouldn't be the CAI. If it's not doing it for me it shouldn't be happening to you. I dunno what to say but it may be related to something else.
Oh and just to make it even more relavant, I also live in Scarborough (Markham and Lawrence) so weather conditions are IDENTICAL to where you are. Hope that helps. Any more questions let me know.
P.S. My car has 15,400 Km
It can't be or shouldn't be the CAI. If it's not doing it for me it shouldn't be happening to you. I dunno what to say but it may be related to something else.
Oh and just to make it even more relavant, I also live in Scarborough (Markham and Lawrence) so weather conditions are IDENTICAL to where you are. Hope that helps. Any more questions let me know.
P.S. My car has 15,400 Km
02-02-2008, 01:07 PM
#98
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the RPMs bounce up and down.. you hear a chopping sound, like something fluttering...
again, this is between 6000 - redline at light - medium throttle. The ONLY remedy while you're in that zone is to give it more gas, in which it will jump to the next "maintainable rpm" at that throttle position.. (i.e. stuttering at 6400rpm.. suddenly jolt it with more pressure and hold the higher throttle, then it will go to 7500rpm, and then stutter there.
However you can FLOOR it anywhere between those RPMs, and it will go straight to redline *somewhat smoothly* and the you shift.
As long as you aren't holding the throttle around 6000 - redline, you will not get a blinking CEL. It only happens if you try to hold it in that range, not even for 5 seconds, and it will stutter and CEL flashes.
again, this is between 6000 - redline at light - medium throttle. The ONLY remedy while you're in that zone is to give it more gas, in which it will jump to the next "maintainable rpm" at that throttle position.. (i.e. stuttering at 6400rpm.. suddenly jolt it with more pressure and hold the higher throttle, then it will go to 7500rpm, and then stutter there.
However you can FLOOR it anywhere between those RPMs, and it will go straight to redline *somewhat smoothly* and the you shift.
As long as you aren't holding the throttle around 6000 - redline, you will not get a blinking CEL. It only happens if you try to hold it in that range, not even for 5 seconds, and it will stutter and CEL flashes.
All the moisture that is coming in through the intake to the engine just can't be that good. That's also why after a few years of making cold-air-intakes AEM started making those AIR BYPASS VALVES to prevent water and moisture getting into the engine...
just my 2 cent
02-02-2008, 01:15 PM
#99
everyone just wait for me on Monday.. I just dropped off the stock intake and VFAD components with dealer. They said they do not have time to install it on Saturday, so they will install on Monday. I will pick up on Monday night and test drive with them to verify that indeed stock intake fixes the problem.
Also note.. weather forecast says monday is raining with 3 deg C temps.
Also note.. weather forecast says monday is raining with 3 deg C temps.
Last edited by Footman; 02-02-2008 at 01:28 PM.
