This is not good news for RX7 ???
07-07-2004, 06:05 PM
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This is not good news for RX7 ???
Found article in car news, how will this effect the upcoming RX7???
Summer's a bummer for 2-seaters as sales of roadsters, especially Z4, fall
By DIANA T. KURYLKO | Automotive News
NEW YORK -- Summer's here, and the time is right for buying little two-seat convertibles.
Except for one problem: The bottom has dropped out of America's small roadster market. And the newest open-top twin-seater - BMW's Z4 - may have a much deeper problem than other cars in the segment.
Analysts say buyers are rejecting the Z4's razor-edged looks, causing sales to plummet much earlier in its life cycle than the Z3 it replaced.
The entire niche is in trouble. Roadster sales are down 21.1 percent in the first half of 2004 compared with the year-ago period. In June, the peak of the convertible-buying season, sales were off 20.1 percent from the June 2003 figure.
Some industry experts say that's because the economy has not been robust, and cars such as the Z4, Mercedes-Benz SLK and Porsche Boxster are more sensitive to economic conditions than larger and more expensive convertibles.
Also, with the exception of the Z4, the cars in the segment are old. The SLK and Boxster are in their final model year of sales. The Audi TT, Honda S2000 and Mazda Miata all have been on the market since the 1990s.
"The roadster segment could have had its day," says Steve Saxty, a partner in Powerbrand Associates, a New York consulting firm. "There is a discrete amount of money to buy a $30,000 to $40,000 vehicle. There are alternate options like an SUV or a Mini Cooper if there is nothing attractive in the segment."
The Z4, introduced in 2002, is the surprise loser. Sales of the BMW model have plunged 25.4 percent in the first six months of this year to 7,359 vehicles, and that's with hefty dealer cash on the hood. BMW is offering $3,500 for the 2.5-liter model and $4,500 for the 3.0 version.
The big incentives are surprising considering the Z4's age, says Jeff Schuster, executive director of global forecasting for J.D. Power and Associates in Troy, Mich.
"That is a substantial incentive even in today's world," says Schuster. "I would imagine they did not anticipate the falloff in sales to happen this soon."
Sales of BMW's Z3 roadster ran at about 20,000 units annually during the third, fourth and fifth years of its life cycle, from 1997 to 1999. The Z4 surpassed 20,000 sales last year but began to decline early in its second year.
Saxty says the Z4 should have pulled up the small convertible category, not the other way around. "The Z4 should have stimulated interest to the point that you see a major uplift in that segment," he says. "It should have brought people into that segment."
Analysts put most of the blame for the Z4's early slide on the car's styling.
"It is definitely related to the style direction taken with the product," Schuster says of the sales downturn. "They went out on a limb with the design, and it has an impact on the faster falloff of sales compared to what the Z3 did."
Saxty says BMW may have erred by making the Z4 slightly more expensive than Z3. But he says design is important in the segment. "It is a fashion statement to buy such a product," he says. "The Z4 has controversy and in that segment people do not want to buy into controversy."
Says George Peterson, president of AutoPacific, a consulting firm in Tustin, Calif.: "The Z4 is not particularly pretty. The interior is relatively spartan. The people who bought it initially were able to overlook that, but the vehicle is no longer a fad or fashion, and people have a hard time with it."
Fritz Hitchcock, owner of South Bay BMW in Hermosa Beach, Calif., doesn't think styling is the issue.
"The price point may have something to with it," says Hitchcock, one of the country's top 30 BMW dealers. "They took an aggressive price point on it just like the 5 series. It is substantially more expensive. That may affect sales. It may not be everyone's first car and for a second or third car it may be little pricey."
The Z4 2.5i starts at $34,295, including destination. The 3.0i has a sticker price of $41,595. Before it was phased out, the Z3 2.5 liter was priced at $31,945 and the Z3 3.0i has a sticker price of $38,345.
Hitchcock says there is "not a lot of awareness of the product. They have a big product line and there is not that much public awareness of the product."
Ed Robinson, executive vice president for operations at BMW of North America, also says the Z4's design is not a problem. He says sales are down because the overall roadster segment is off.
And he noted that the car's sales rate was better in June than in May. While the segment was off 20.1 percent during June, the Z4's year-to-year decline was just 4.7 percent.
"This tells me there is a cyclical variation that takes place," says Robinson.
But analysts say incentives are keeping Z4 sales afloat. Although BMW rarely offers large spiffs, the Z4 incentives began last winter, when the vehicle was just over a year old.
BMW put a $1,200 dealer cash incentive on the 2.5i and $2,000 on the 3.0i.
The incentive was increased in May to $3,500 for the 2.5-liter model and $4,500 for the 3.0 version.
Robinson says BMW will continue to offer incentives. He says there is intense competition in the segment as Mercedes-Benz and Porsche run out their models.
"It is still the summer and a good opportunity in the market," he says. "We will maintain an active position in July."
Cheers
Michael
Summer's a bummer for 2-seaters as sales of roadsters, especially Z4, fall
By DIANA T. KURYLKO | Automotive News
NEW YORK -- Summer's here, and the time is right for buying little two-seat convertibles.
Except for one problem: The bottom has dropped out of America's small roadster market. And the newest open-top twin-seater - BMW's Z4 - may have a much deeper problem than other cars in the segment.
Analysts say buyers are rejecting the Z4's razor-edged looks, causing sales to plummet much earlier in its life cycle than the Z3 it replaced.
The entire niche is in trouble. Roadster sales are down 21.1 percent in the first half of 2004 compared with the year-ago period. In June, the peak of the convertible-buying season, sales were off 20.1 percent from the June 2003 figure.
Some industry experts say that's because the economy has not been robust, and cars such as the Z4, Mercedes-Benz SLK and Porsche Boxster are more sensitive to economic conditions than larger and more expensive convertibles.
Also, with the exception of the Z4, the cars in the segment are old. The SLK and Boxster are in their final model year of sales. The Audi TT, Honda S2000 and Mazda Miata all have been on the market since the 1990s.
"The roadster segment could have had its day," says Steve Saxty, a partner in Powerbrand Associates, a New York consulting firm. "There is a discrete amount of money to buy a $30,000 to $40,000 vehicle. There are alternate options like an SUV or a Mini Cooper if there is nothing attractive in the segment."
The Z4, introduced in 2002, is the surprise loser. Sales of the BMW model have plunged 25.4 percent in the first six months of this year to 7,359 vehicles, and that's with hefty dealer cash on the hood. BMW is offering $3,500 for the 2.5-liter model and $4,500 for the 3.0 version.
The big incentives are surprising considering the Z4's age, says Jeff Schuster, executive director of global forecasting for J.D. Power and Associates in Troy, Mich.
"That is a substantial incentive even in today's world," says Schuster. "I would imagine they did not anticipate the falloff in sales to happen this soon."
Sales of BMW's Z3 roadster ran at about 20,000 units annually during the third, fourth and fifth years of its life cycle, from 1997 to 1999. The Z4 surpassed 20,000 sales last year but began to decline early in its second year.
Saxty says the Z4 should have pulled up the small convertible category, not the other way around. "The Z4 should have stimulated interest to the point that you see a major uplift in that segment," he says. "It should have brought people into that segment."
Analysts put most of the blame for the Z4's early slide on the car's styling.
"It is definitely related to the style direction taken with the product," Schuster says of the sales downturn. "They went out on a limb with the design, and it has an impact on the faster falloff of sales compared to what the Z3 did."
Saxty says BMW may have erred by making the Z4 slightly more expensive than Z3. But he says design is important in the segment. "It is a fashion statement to buy such a product," he says. "The Z4 has controversy and in that segment people do not want to buy into controversy."
Says George Peterson, president of AutoPacific, a consulting firm in Tustin, Calif.: "The Z4 is not particularly pretty. The interior is relatively spartan. The people who bought it initially were able to overlook that, but the vehicle is no longer a fad or fashion, and people have a hard time with it."
Fritz Hitchcock, owner of South Bay BMW in Hermosa Beach, Calif., doesn't think styling is the issue.
"The price point may have something to with it," says Hitchcock, one of the country's top 30 BMW dealers. "They took an aggressive price point on it just like the 5 series. It is substantially more expensive. That may affect sales. It may not be everyone's first car and for a second or third car it may be little pricey."
The Z4 2.5i starts at $34,295, including destination. The 3.0i has a sticker price of $41,595. Before it was phased out, the Z3 2.5 liter was priced at $31,945 and the Z3 3.0i has a sticker price of $38,345.
Hitchcock says there is "not a lot of awareness of the product. They have a big product line and there is not that much public awareness of the product."
Ed Robinson, executive vice president for operations at BMW of North America, also says the Z4's design is not a problem. He says sales are down because the overall roadster segment is off.
And he noted that the car's sales rate was better in June than in May. While the segment was off 20.1 percent during June, the Z4's year-to-year decline was just 4.7 percent.
"This tells me there is a cyclical variation that takes place," says Robinson.
But analysts say incentives are keeping Z4 sales afloat. Although BMW rarely offers large spiffs, the Z4 incentives began last winter, when the vehicle was just over a year old.
BMW put a $1,200 dealer cash incentive on the 2.5i and $2,000 on the 3.0i.
The incentive was increased in May to $3,500 for the 2.5-liter model and $4,500 for the 3.0 version.
Robinson says BMW will continue to offer incentives. He says there is intense competition in the segment as Mercedes-Benz and Porsche run out their models.
"It is still the summer and a good opportunity in the market," he says. "We will maintain an active position in July."
Cheers
Michael
Last edited by Lock & Load; 07-07-2004 at 06:09 PM.
07-07-2004, 07:20 PM
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Michael,
convertible market = 90% posers 10% enthusiasts
rx-7 market = 25% posers 75% enthusiasts. Completely different markets.
Just look at the sales % of auto RX-8's as opposed to auto 350Z convertibles.
convertible market = 90% posers 10% enthusiasts
rx-7 market = 25% posers 75% enthusiasts. Completely different markets.
Just look at the sales % of auto RX-8's as opposed to auto 350Z convertibles.
07-07-2004, 08:18 PM
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One point to keep in mind is that the auto version of the RX-8 has less hp than the 6MT. In contrast, the 350Z's auto does not take a hit in hp thus making it relatively more comparable with the manual gearbox version.
07-07-2004, 08:40 PM
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Except the poser element don't really care about power. Witness the 1.8 Z3, any MG-F etc etc.
I'd still lay money that the auto vs manual % would be a damn site worse in the 350Z vert as opposed to the coupe.
I'd still lay money that the auto vs manual % would be a damn site worse in the 350Z vert as opposed to the coupe.
07-08-2004, 03:23 AM
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rpm-pwr
I agree with most of your remarks , however a slow down in sales in American sportcars be it AUTOMATIC OR MANUALS CONVERTIBLE OR 2 SEATER COUPES will not help the case for a RX7 .
Most car manufacturers keep an eye on the US market , a slowing down in sales by 20% may indicate a weakening in the economy , less spare money for the weekend toys for the boys .
cheers
michael
I agree with most of your remarks , however a slow down in sales in American sportcars be it AUTOMATIC OR MANUALS CONVERTIBLE OR 2 SEATER COUPES will not help the case for a RX7 .
Most car manufacturers keep an eye on the US market , a slowing down in sales by 20% may indicate a weakening in the economy , less spare money for the weekend toys for the boys .
cheers
michael
07-08-2004, 05:07 AM
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There will NEVER be another RX7. That is not the way Mazda or Ford is looking. The RX-8 exists as an icon car for the rest of the Mazda range. RX-8 styling notes are played out on the 6 and the 3, and that brings the punters into the showroom. The message is - you can have something of the RX-8 on a car which costs less. Open sports car enthusiasts will have to make do with the replacement for the Miata.
Mazda is not in the business of pleasing a few enthusiasts - they tried that and nearly went broke. Most RX-8 buyers are like me - boring farts who want a cool car.
If you take a broader look across the Ford brands, you can see a significant trend towards better cars all over, with a very careful approach to filling all profitable niches. The RX-7 is not a profitable niche.
Mazda is not in the business of pleasing a few enthusiasts - they tried that and nearly went broke. Most RX-8 buyers are like me - boring farts who want a cool car.
If you take a broader look across the Ford brands, you can see a significant trend towards better cars all over, with a very careful approach to filling all profitable niches. The RX-7 is not a profitable niche.
07-08-2004, 05:17 AM
#8
If they bring back the RX-7, when will they bring back the RX-5, RX-4, RX-3 etc. etc??
They wont. History shows they go forward, not backwards.
There wont be another RX-7 IMHO. I reckon they are making more profits out of RX-8's the world over than they ever did on the 7's (with all due respect to the RX-7).
Cheers,
Hymee.
They wont. History shows they go forward, not backwards.
There wont be another RX-7 IMHO. I reckon they are making more profits out of RX-8's the world over than they ever did on the 7's (with all due respect to the RX-7).
Cheers,
Hymee.
07-08-2004, 06:40 PM
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Michael, you're right if the business case looks shaky they won't do it. But thankfully, there are still a couple of factors that keep it a possibility:
* Halo car. Hymee, for the same reason they build the RX-8 even though the profits are so small and the warranty risks are much higher compared to 2,3 & 6.
* Recognition. Manufacturers kill to get the same kind of recognition the RX-7 name has. Mazda understand this and have said a number of times they intend to revive it. They could have killed off the name in '86 and again in 92 but they knew better.
* Because they can. You have to understand that there always have been passionate people at Mazda. The FD never made sense, the Yamaguchi book says it - they built it because they could. When the RX-7 engineers transferred across to the RX-8 team in (2002?) stories came out about plenty of arguments, sometimes even physical fights broke out as the RX-7 engineers pushed for more and more performance.
At the very least you can expect that there are people inside Mazda pushing for a more powerful rotary even if it has to be in the RX-8.
* Halo car. Hymee, for the same reason they build the RX-8 even though the profits are so small and the warranty risks are much higher compared to 2,3 & 6.
* Recognition. Manufacturers kill to get the same kind of recognition the RX-7 name has. Mazda understand this and have said a number of times they intend to revive it. They could have killed off the name in '86 and again in 92 but they knew better.
* Because they can. You have to understand that there always have been passionate people at Mazda. The FD never made sense, the Yamaguchi book says it - they built it because they could. When the RX-7 engineers transferred across to the RX-8 team in (2002?) stories came out about plenty of arguments, sometimes even physical fights broke out as the RX-7 engineers pushed for more and more performance.
At the very least you can expect that there are people inside Mazda pushing for a more powerful rotary even if it has to be in the RX-8.
07-15-2004, 12:28 AM
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Well at the last Mazda3 Press Launch I was at we had one thing confirmed to us for 2005.
The Mazda6 MPS (206kW 4WD 6-Speed)
I was having a talk to them about my thoughts reguarding the ressurection of two models.
The RX-7 which is hinted to be starting concept at the earlist 2006.
The RX-3....... They were very vague about this concept but did like the idea of a cheap rotary based on a platform similar to the Mazda3.
But the truth is nobody really knows.
My guess would be a RX-7 around 2007.
Maybe a RX-3 but I doubt it.
The Mazda6 MPS (206kW 4WD 6-Speed)
I was having a talk to them about my thoughts reguarding the ressurection of two models.
The RX-7 which is hinted to be starting concept at the earlist 2006.
The RX-3....... They were very vague about this concept but did like the idea of a cheap rotary based on a platform similar to the Mazda3.
But the truth is nobody really knows.
My guess would be a RX-7 around 2007.
Maybe a RX-3 but I doubt it.
07-15-2004, 07:48 PM
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Small rotary-powered cars will not happen. The reason is fuel economy. Regardless of Muslim terrorism, petrol prices will continue to trend up. In Europe, diesels now comprise 50% of new car sales, and many of them are Golf-sized. It will be interesting to see how many of the new BMW 1-series will be sold as diesel in Europe. Japanese manufacturers will have to start offering high-powered diesel alternatives to maintain a toehold in Europe. Once this happens, the groundswell for diesel will grow, and once the USA catches the bug, watch out.
I'm having a small bet with myself that the RX-8 is probably the last rotary that Mazda will build. Here's another prediction: Mazda will offer a diesel-powered 3 within 2 years.
I'm having a small bet with myself that the RX-8 is probably the last rotary that Mazda will build. Here's another prediction: Mazda will offer a diesel-powered 3 within 2 years.
07-15-2004, 08:10 PM
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I was wrong in my prediction: The diesel Mazda 3 is already in Europe, and at 56.5 miles per Pommy gallon (or 5L/100km), the economy has to look good. Check this URL:
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/ro...6/story_1.html
BTW, a handy unit conversion site:
http://www.tdiclub.com/misc/conversions.html
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/ro...6/story_1.html
BTW, a handy unit conversion site:
http://www.tdiclub.com/misc/conversions.html
07-15-2004, 11:26 PM
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Labrat
Nostradamus :p has nothing on you when it comes to rotary predictions , you may be correct because everyone in Europe is going diesel , AS PETROL PRICES ARE BECOMING PROHIVITIVE.
CHEERS
MICHAEL
Nostradamus :p has nothing on you when it comes to rotary predictions , you may be correct because everyone in Europe is going diesel , AS PETROL PRICES ARE BECOMING PROHIVITIVE.
CHEERS
MICHAEL
07-16-2004, 12:48 AM
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Dunno about all this. 
Diesel is becoming popular, yes. But that hasn't stopped Europe's finest car makers from pushing out turbo 4's and V6's, and V8's, V10's and V12's. 
Sure, these may well be a minority of the market, but they identify on-going market space for the rotary, which I hope Mazda continues to pursue. Certainly, I saw the release of the 8 very much as evidence, to paraphrase Mark Twain, that reports of the rotary's death were somewhat premature :p
Diesel is becoming popular, yes. But that hasn't stopped Europe's finest car makers from pushing out turbo 4's and V6's, and V8's, V10's and V12's. Sure, these may well be a minority of the market, but they identify on-going market space for the rotary, which I hope Mazda continues to pursue. Certainly, I saw the release of the 8 very much as evidence, to paraphrase Mark Twain, that reports of the rotary's death were somewhat premature :p
07-16-2004, 01:00 AM
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I agree that in the prestige segment that petrol will probably dominate until they've squeezed the last drop of petrol out of the last sod of peat (that's after they've used up all the oil, gas, oil shale, black and brown coal). People who've got that sort of money don't think how much it'll take to fill the tank.
Mazda's future depends on how Ford decide to position the brand; after all, they have Jaguar and Volvo in that sort of prestigy segment. Certainly, the RX-8 is the icon model for Mazda, but a more expensive rotary like the old RX-7? Probably not.
IMO, the small>medium segment in which the Mazda 3 and 6 dwell will be fought out on the basis of fuel economy as well as all the other things. I reckon that in a few years if you want to play in that game, unless you can get 5L/100km, you won't be in the hunt
Mazda's future depends on how Ford decide to position the brand; after all, they have Jaguar and Volvo in that sort of prestigy segment. Certainly, the RX-8 is the icon model for Mazda, but a more expensive rotary like the old RX-7? Probably not.
IMO, the small>medium segment in which the Mazda 3 and 6 dwell will be fought out on the basis of fuel economy as well as all the other things. I reckon that in a few years if you want to play in that game, unless you can get 5L/100km, you won't be in the hunt
07-16-2004, 01:14 AM
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I violently agree with you :D There is still a lot of scope for the rotary in what we might call the 'icon' segments. It is [I]possible[U] this could extend to a 2 seat RX-7 style, but the logic of Mazda's models suggests that a replacement for the MX-5 -- another icon -- might be well-served by the rotary engine, offering good performance and light weight without complex turbo-charging.
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