Motor Magazine PCOTY
03-11-2004, 06:06 PM
#26
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Originally posted by dbb
Hi Michael,
I think at least a couple of times in various Motor magazine tests of the RX8, it has been mentioned that the DSC still lurks in the background applying brakes etc. on the limit, even with the button switched off.
In the PCOTY issue, it is said , and I quote "the DSC (even deactivated) rams on the brakes if there's too much yaw". Now this would surely affect lap times? Well, if you hold the button down for 7 or 8 seconds, a light appears on the dash indicating DSC is FULLY off. In this scenario, there would be no ramming of brakes and the car would do better lap times.
If you look at the TopGear video of the RX8 from the UK, you can see the car performing powerslides without any indication of DSC being active - and in the same video the car was lapping the same times as an M3. Given the M3 is quite a bit quicker, this certainly shows the car handles better than anything this side of a Lotus Elise.
Hi Michael,
I think at least a couple of times in various Motor magazine tests of the RX8, it has been mentioned that the DSC still lurks in the background applying brakes etc. on the limit, even with the button switched off.
In the PCOTY issue, it is said , and I quote "the DSC (even deactivated) rams on the brakes if there's too much yaw". Now this would surely affect lap times? Well, if you hold the button down for 7 or 8 seconds, a light appears on the dash indicating DSC is FULLY off. In this scenario, there would be no ramming of brakes and the car would do better lap times.
If you look at the TopGear video of the RX8 from the UK, you can see the car performing powerslides without any indication of DSC being active - and in the same video the car was lapping the same times as an M3. Given the M3 is quite a bit quicker, this certainly shows the car handles better than anything this side of a Lotus Elise.
It is 1 sec per lap in a race track with DSC partially off vs totally off, in a good driver of course.
Anyway, I love Michael's command coz he brothers to do so meaning that he cares about cars.
An another thing is any debate is a healthy one even with some sort of firework
03-11-2004, 06:12 PM
#27
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Originally posted by AMG
The lotus elise and the porsche boxster (i think) are made and sold without spare tyres.
The lotus elise and the porsche boxster (i think) are made and sold without spare tyres.
I restrain myself commenting on car with (not enough) knowledge about them in front of michael taylor.
03-11-2004, 06:30 PM
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1 second off the lap times puts it up one position, nudging out the Audi S4.
Still down a couple hundred thousand dollars and 7 seconds off the M3 CSL and the Lambo (and the GT3, if is was in the group I suppose)
Still down a couple hundred thousand dollars and 7 seconds off the M3 CSL and the Lambo (and the GT3, if is was in the group I suppose)
03-11-2004, 06:41 PM
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the "ramming on brakes" business is a Cam comment and he's a race driver, so he's not very bright. once we worded him up on it, he was cool. when you see the pcoty dvd and spot the smokey sideways burnout in the RX-8, you might assume we turned it off altogether.
the yaw issue is more to do with having fun than track speed. for most people, anyway.
the yaw issue is more to do with having fun than track speed. for most people, anyway.
03-11-2004, 06:58 PM
#30
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ahhh... now michael is sucking us in to buy the DVD... very wise businessman!
Cameron is a good racer, I wish he could elaborate more... you only have 100+ page on the magazine don't you.
Cameron is a good racer, I wish he could elaborate more... you only have 100+ page on the magazine don't you.
03-11-2004, 07:01 PM
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Michael, I think some of us here cringed when reading about the DSC being left on for BFYB and thought the same had happened here. But it may have been Cameron who wrote that for BFYB too
BTW I personally thought it was a great read. I dont have it with me, but at one stage you mention a car (the Alfa?) being "one of the few cars including the ... RX-8 not to crack 15seconds for 400m" surely you meant Z4?
PS That 16b photo is a pretty suprising scoop - is it real?
BTW I personally thought it was a great read. I dont have it with me, but at one stage you mention a car (the Alfa?) being "one of the few cars including the ... RX-8 not to crack 15seconds for 400m" surely you meant Z4?
PS That 16b photo is a pretty suprising scoop - is it real?
03-11-2004, 07:11 PM
#32
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Anyway, thanks for taking the time to visit the forum Michael.
I suppose you always get people bashing your rankings because their favourite car didn't rank well.
When people like LB (10/20) and DM (12/20) list performance down so low, which has them ranking the Rx8 lower than the Porche Toorak Tractor (18/20 for LB???) , the Volvo S60, the Astra SRI Turbo (?!), the Suby GT etc, you have to wonder if they are on drugs.
Oh, and a "fun" factor rating would be cool too. The RX8 would be more fun to drive than a Audi Station Wagon.
I suppose you always get people bashing your rankings because their favourite car didn't rank well.
When people like LB (10/20) and DM (12/20) list performance down so low, which has them ranking the Rx8 lower than the Porche Toorak Tractor (18/20 for LB???) , the Volvo S60, the Astra SRI Turbo (?!), the Suby GT etc, you have to wonder if they are on drugs.
Oh, and a "fun" factor rating would be cool too. The RX8 would be more fun to drive than a Audi Station Wagon.
03-11-2004, 09:44 PM
#33
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Porsche Boxster
Takahashi dude, Porsche Boxsters do come with spares, in the front boot. It's not a full spare, but a space saver spare. Z4 on the other hand comes with run flat tyres so no spares whatsoever, just like the Mini.
03-12-2004, 01:51 AM
#34
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Michael taylor .
I have spent time in both the Nissan 350 Z and the Mazda RX8 , AND I AM NOT A SO CALLED RACING DRIVER car expert , but i know which car i can live with on a day to day basis .
i will be making a 5000km trip from Goldcoast to Sydney Melbourne and back , and i know which car i want to drive .
There was no men tion of the 350Z S engine , being old tecknology as well as its chassy etc .
Theres more to a car than TORQUE ,
CHEERS
MICHAEL
I have spent time in both the Nissan 350 Z and the Mazda RX8 , AND I AM NOT A SO CALLED RACING DRIVER car expert , but i know which car i can live with on a day to day basis .
i will be making a 5000km trip from Goldcoast to Sydney Melbourne and back , and i know which car i want to drive .
There was no men tion of the 350Z S engine , being old tecknology as well as its chassy etc .
Theres more to a car than TORQUE ,
CHEERS
MICHAEL
03-12-2004, 02:43 AM
#35
trust me..this wont hurt
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when i used to do some spirited driving through the hills in my little mx5 it was amazing how many HSV's would zoom past on the straight roads only to be reeled in and overtaken when the twisties began. It was funny watching them come close to breaking traction around the corners whilst the mx5 was quite relaxed.
Just goes to show that power is not the be all and end all of performance.
Just remebered in drivers briefs before any mixed entry racing event it was always pointed out to watch out for the cars that outperformed in brakes and cornering as these cars usually had the faster lap times when compared to powerful cars with lesser braking and cornering abilities.
Just goes to show that power is not the be all and end all of performance.
Just remebered in drivers briefs before any mixed entry racing event it was always pointed out to watch out for the cars that outperformed in brakes and cornering as these cars usually had the faster lap times when compared to powerful cars with lesser braking and cornering abilities.
03-12-2004, 04:26 AM
#36
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Despite this being a some-what futile debate (this is the RX-8 forum after-all....), I'll throw in my 2cents....
I went for a fang to Wisemans Ferry (on the Hawksbury River for those not from Sydney) last week. My mate in his 350z came along too and we swapped 'rides' for a while. On anything but a smooth racetrack, the Zed's stiff suspension and heavy steering is a real handful and there is no way it could keep up with the '8 through the twisties. There just isn't the same level of control. Driving the Zed, I felt like I was about to skip off the road at every bump and pot-hole.
While the top third of the rpm band may be where the '8 "makes it's money", the difference is that it will happily sit there all day. You don't get the same level of faith in the engine doing that in any other car.
But we are all biased anyway, which isn't a bad thing!
I went for a fang to Wisemans Ferry (on the Hawksbury River for those not from Sydney) last week. My mate in his 350z came along too and we swapped 'rides' for a while. On anything but a smooth racetrack, the Zed's stiff suspension and heavy steering is a real handful and there is no way it could keep up with the '8 through the twisties. There just isn't the same level of control. Driving the Zed, I felt like I was about to skip off the road at every bump and pot-hole.
While the top third of the rpm band may be where the '8 "makes it's money", the difference is that it will happily sit there all day. You don't get the same level of faith in the engine doing that in any other car.
But we are all biased anyway, which isn't a bad thing!
03-12-2004, 06:20 PM
#37
Originally posted by michael taylor
Hi guys,
...The reason the RX-8 didn't do better was down to the engine, ...and the only reason the mention of a turbo four pot engine was thrown up, was that it doesn't have any torque and it absolutely has to be in the right gear to get proper performance out of it.
cheers
Hi guys,
...The reason the RX-8 didn't do better was down to the engine, ...and the only reason the mention of a turbo four pot engine was thrown up, was that it doesn't have any torque and it absolutely has to be in the right gear to get proper performance out of it.
cheers
while I don't disagree with the lack of torque comment I find the car very good round town it's one of the high points using the Rx-8 as a day to day car. I can drive it happily at 2-3k rpm and yes it is slow if driven this way but the car is very well balanced and the car transforms it's self in to a quick car (maybe not the fastest) then reved.in the end I reckon magazine reviews/comparisons aren't the judge the drive is. reviews/comparisons have a focus or criteria that isn't nessisarily yours. eg WRX's get good reviews, but one drive and I knew the WRX wasn't for me! same with other cars yet one drive of a rx-8 and I was hooked the right blend of speed practicality and fun
Originally posted by Wildcard
Despite this being a some-what futile debate (this is the RX-8 forum after-all....), I'll throw in my 2cents....
I went for a fang to Wisemans Ferry (on the Hawksbury River for those not from Sydney) last week. My mate in his 350z came along too and we swapped 'rides' for a while. On anything but a smooth racetrack, the Zed's stiff suspension and heavy steering is a real handful and there is no way it could keep up with the '8 through the twisties. There just isn't the same level of control. Driving the Zed, I felt like I was about to skip off the road at every bump and pot-hole.
While the top third of the rpm band may be where the '8 "makes it's money", the difference is that it will happily sit there all day. You don't get the same level of faith in the engine doing that in any other car.
But we are all biased anyway, which isn't a bad thing!
Despite this being a some-what futile debate (this is the RX-8 forum after-all....), I'll throw in my 2cents....
I went for a fang to Wisemans Ferry (on the Hawksbury River for those not from Sydney) last week. My mate in his 350z came along too and we swapped 'rides' for a while. On anything but a smooth racetrack, the Zed's stiff suspension and heavy steering is a real handful and there is no way it could keep up with the '8 through the twisties. There just isn't the same level of control. Driving the Zed, I felt like I was about to skip off the road at every bump and pot-hole.
While the top third of the rpm band may be where the '8 "makes it's money", the difference is that it will happily sit there all day. You don't get the same level of faith in the engine doing that in any other car.
But we are all biased anyway, which isn't a bad thing!
still I don't share your comments about the rx8's rough road ability. I reckon that the 8 is just scary on a rough back road with it's tram-tracking. if the Z is worse I'm glad I didn't get one of those!
03-12-2004, 06:54 PM
#38
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well i suppose the name tells isn't it Performance car of the year.
Maybe they just Looking at the Power, torque and Handling. But ignoring the Price tag.
Maybe they just Looking at the Power, torque and Handling. But ignoring the Price tag.
03-14-2004, 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by dbb
When people like LB (10/20) and DM (12/20) list performance down so low
When people like LB (10/20) and DM (12/20) list performance down so low
1. Performance is "based on the results at Avalon (speed, acceleration) and Winton (circuit times)".
2. LB = Lucky Bastard. He apparantly found that the Astra SRI (18pts) was just as fast as the Lambo (18pts) and light years ahead of the RX-8(10pts).
3. From this we can assume that Lambo drivers all over the country are terrified of pulling up next to Astras, Cayennes and Volvos.
-pete
03-14-2004, 03:57 PM
#40
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You can certainly take LB out of the equation... but everyone of us want to that LB?!
I wonder what that LB drives... a old Holden Commandore S? I bet it is an ute too!!
I wonder what that LB drives... a old Holden Commandore S? I bet it is an ute too!!
03-14-2004, 04:36 PM
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Guys
we don't compare cars directly with each other in any criteria., they are compared back to the criteria, always bearing in mind performance relative to its intended function, dynamics relative etc...
that's why some cars got higher performance scores than their raw numbers suggest they deserved.
mt
we don't compare cars directly with each other in any criteria., they are compared back to the criteria, always bearing in mind performance relative to its intended function, dynamics relative etc...
that's why some cars got higher performance scores than their raw numbers suggest they deserved.
mt
03-14-2004, 04:39 PM
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Surely it is a subjective thing though? Otherwise why would one judge differ widely from another? LB didn't "like" the RX8, judging from the low scores.
If the criteria were clearly understood, then every judge would have consistent marking (at least within 1 or 2 points of each other).
If the criteria were clearly understood, then every judge would have consistent marking (at least within 1 or 2 points of each other).
03-14-2004, 04:49 PM
#44
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What a coinsidence a double page add for the convertible 350Z rigth in the middle of the PCOTY results .
Luckily i only buy this crappy magazine once a year .(once to many times i think )
motor is equivalent to :
Luckily i only buy this crappy magazine once a year .(once to many times i think )
motor is equivalent to :
03-14-2004, 05:11 PM
#45
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Guys you have to remember what this magazine is all about... Big name brands and who has the bigger advertising contracts.
I stopped buying this magazine a year ago now even before i had my 8 and even though it has many valid points and some good articles its seems the plugs that get thrown in whenever they can are sometimes not welcome.
You have to understand that advertising is where most of the money is made not the few dollars we spend on just the printing cost to buy the magazine.
Anyway this is my two cents worth.
Regards
Phillip
I stopped buying this magazine a year ago now even before i had my 8 and even though it has many valid points and some good articles its seems the plugs that get thrown in whenever they can are sometimes not welcome.
You have to understand that advertising is where most of the money is made not the few dollars we spend on just the printing cost to buy the magazine.
Anyway this is my two cents worth.
Regards
Phillip
03-14-2004, 05:29 PM
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now where have i heard that before? the result you wanted isn't there, the people who were there were obviously wrong, and it's all because of the advertising dollar.
well, lamborghini didn't advertise and they won. Porsche never advertise and they've won five times.
bmw advertise twice a year and they've won it twice.
MOTOR's most loyal advertiser, year in and year out, is Ford. It has never won, nor looked like winning.
That argument is spurious, easily disproven by available facts and verging on libel.
well, lamborghini didn't advertise and they won. Porsche never advertise and they've won five times.
bmw advertise twice a year and they've won it twice.
MOTOR's most loyal advertiser, year in and year out, is Ford. It has never won, nor looked like winning.
That argument is spurious, easily disproven by available facts and verging on libel.
03-14-2004, 05:43 PM
#47
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Hi Michael,
I don't agree with the advertising $$$ thing. I don't believe it had anything to do with the results. And I know it must seem like we are a bunch of sore losers. It is agreed universally the 8 is no Porsche GT3 or M3 CSL or Ferrari Enzo etc.
But it is a fun car to drive, delivering superb handling and a super smooth engine which beats most things through the twisties.
It is just that the consistency of the judges results seems to be very subjective, rather than objective. Otherwise, how could we get a spread of results for performance of 14 to 10? 10/20 for performance is simply wrong. The car is better than that.
Dynamics? 17 to 14. Another spread. The chassis is (even in your mag) promoted as the 8's biggest strength, yet it got rated similar to the Astra. The Astra would go flying off a cliff if it tried to follow me through the Adelaide hills.
Thanks again for taking the time to browse our forum.
I don't agree with the advertising $$$ thing. I don't believe it had anything to do with the results. And I know it must seem like we are a bunch of sore losers. It is agreed universally the 8 is no Porsche GT3 or M3 CSL or Ferrari Enzo etc.
But it is a fun car to drive, delivering superb handling and a super smooth engine which beats most things through the twisties.
It is just that the consistency of the judges results seems to be very subjective, rather than objective. Otherwise, how could we get a spread of results for performance of 14 to 10? 10/20 for performance is simply wrong. The car is better than that.
Dynamics? 17 to 14. Another spread. The chassis is (even in your mag) promoted as the 8's biggest strength, yet it got rated similar to the Astra. The Astra would go flying off a cliff if it tried to follow me through the Adelaide hills.
Thanks again for taking the time to browse our forum.
03-14-2004, 05:55 PM
#48
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Well, as I mentioned earlier, I don't like the mag at all and find this type of comparo pretty meaningless for those of us that live in the real world.
But I dips me lid to the editor for having the guts to come in here and defend his position!
Tim
But I dips me lid to the editor for having the guts to come in here and defend his position!
Tim
03-14-2004, 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by michael taylor
Guys
we don't compare cars directly with each other in any criteria...
Guys
we don't compare cars directly with each other in any criteria...
It was only intended for a laugh :p The fact that you kept Paul Cockburn out of the voting is proof enough for me that you were trying to be fair
Guys, regardless of how upset some of you are that the RX-8 didnt take a clean sweep of every available award on the planet, there's no need to get nasty. The RX-8 didnt deserve PCOTY - it's just not designed out-and-out performance. It deserved to be run without DSC, sure, but that it lost in track times it gained in abnormally quick 400m on 0-100km/h times.
If the MOTOR's photoshopping is right (engine #35,877 is a prototype engine number?) there's a big banger rotary in the works for those who really need more.
-pete
03-14-2004, 06:24 PM
#50
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Michael,
To settle some of the controversy why not do a comparo with say
RX8
Z4
350z
WRX STI
Monaro
S2000
The above comparo to include performance testing, track time and some real world stuff.
I do not think that the 8 would neccesarily win against this opposition but maybe a more tightly grouped selection of cars like this would enable their relative strengths and weaknesses to be better assessed.
Steve
PS My money says the Z4 would get beaten by the 8.
To settle some of the controversy why not do a comparo with say
RX8
Z4
350z
WRX STI
Monaro
S2000
The above comparo to include performance testing, track time and some real world stuff.
I do not think that the 8 would neccesarily win against this opposition but maybe a more tightly grouped selection of cars like this would enable their relative strengths and weaknesses to be better assessed.
Steve
PS My money says the Z4 would get beaten by the 8.