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I bought my 05 with Hawk HP+ already installed. I have the same pads on my Miatas and like them and found they squeal just a bit now and then. Unlike the Miatas, the RX squealed constantly and obnoxiously loudly. I felt like every time I cruised up to a stoplight or stop sign in my quiet neighborhood, my car was screaming "Hey everybody, look at the idiot who's driving me!"
I didn't do anything special, just followed the standard advice, but it has worked so far, now they squeal even less loudly than the Miatas, I can barely hear them, and they do it only about once every 10 stops.
The rotors were really scored, so I had them resurfaced. Cost only $10 each at a machine shop, so shop around because I was quoted as much as $25 each at an auto parts store.
I checked to make sure the calipers were lubed properly, which they were.
The pads had no shims. I don't know if the pads came without them, or if the previous owner chose to go without them, but nonetheless I put some of that pinkish - orange stuff from CRC on them, Disc Brake Quiet. It's supposed to be for non-shimmed brakes.
I also noticed the the clips for the front calipers were installed randomly. I had to go online and find a diagram to show me where they went, but I reinstalled those properly. It's an easy mistake to make, but it seems like it would affect performance, or at least noise if they aren't installed right.
BTW, the pads themselves looked nearly new, so I didn't change those.
I also followed Hawks bedding instructions carefully, though I did gradually increase the speeds to higher than they recommended. Seems to have worked out fine.
So that's it. Very simple and inexpensive job that made a big difference. Funny thing is that it doesn't really stop better, even with the scored rotors it would stop like it hit a brick wall, and it still does. :D
Sure they are. The whole point of them is to be dual purpose pads. Here's a quote from Hawk -
• Designed to get you to and from the track without requiring a brake change
• Low to mid temp range
• Smooth and predictable torque
I've had them on both my Miatas for years and have had no problem with them. They stop really well on the street at low temps, just as well as the stock pads.
They are just a bit noisy and a touch dusty, but I don't care about that.
Hawk's marketing statements and reality are known to be far enough apart, that one can mail a postcard from statements to reality, showing how sunny it is supposed to be in the dead of an Alaskan winter.
HP+ pads do come with shims, BTW.
Glad your common fixes are working for you so far.
My experience with HP+ was far too much initial bite for track work, plus insane noise that sounded like a school bus had an alien love child with a fog horn. There was no making them work for me.
Hawk's marketing statements and reality are known to be far enough apart, that one can mail a postcard from statements to reality, showing how sunny it is supposed to be in the dead of an Alaskan winter.
HP+ pads do come with shims, BTW.
Glad your common fixes are working for you so far.
My experience with HP+ was far too much initial bite for track work, plus insane noise that sounded like a school bus had an alien love child with a fog horn. There was no making them work for me.
Love it "Hawk's marketing statements and reality are known to be far enough apart, that one can mail a postcard from statements to reality, showing how sunny it is supposed to be in the dead of an Alaskan winter."
You must get 'em someplace special. Or maybe I'm buying the wrong HP+ pads. I buy a couple sets a year and the ones I get don't come with shims.
Despite Hawk's marketing, they are not street pads. Well, maybe the worst street pads ever. No, now that I think of it, that would be Hawk Blues. (Yes, I've run them on the street on my RX-7 race car when it had a plate.)
I've had a better experience running DTC60s on the street between race days. Even in freezing temperatures, they're fine. HP+s are too much of a compromise -- not civilised on streets, not resilient enough on track.
You must get 'em someplace special. Or maybe I'm buying the wrong HP+ pads. I buy a couple sets a year and the ones I get don't come with shims.
I don't know for sure if they include shims. I stopped using them several years ago, so I am working off old memory here. Still, I have a lot of Hawk shims in my brake parts bin, and they had to come from somewhere. Maybe they used to include them, but don't any more?
Originally Posted by Loki
I've had a better experience running DTC60s on the street between race days. Even in freezing temperatures, they're fine. HP+s are too much of a compromise -- not civilised on streets, not resilient enough on track.
I think HP+ may be a good autocross pad. They are way too obnoxious on the street after being heated to track temps to be usable, but maybe not getting them that hot is the key. On the track, I found them to have way too much initial bite, followed by non-linear torque. Pad fade would start around lap 5 or 6. I liked DTC-30s better, but initial bite is still too great with those pads, and rotor wear is brutal.
I don't know for sure if they include shims. I stopped using them several years ago, so I am working off old memory here. Still, I have a lot of Hawk shims in my brake parts bin, and they had to come from somewhere. Maybe they used to include them, but don't any more?
I've been buying HP+ since 2009 and they've never had shims. Maybe you were buying HPS? Doesn't matter, really, but for sure they don't come with shims now.
I think HP+ may be a good autocross pad. They are way too obnoxious on the street after being heated to track temps to be usable, but maybe not getting them that hot is the key. On the track, I found them to have way too much initial bite, followed by non-linear torque. Pad fade would start around lap 5 or 6.
You and a couple other guys have repeated this more than once, but it's just not my experience. I've never gotten them to fade, and I'm not slow. I've run all three tracks at Summit, two configurations of VIR, and new Dominion, so I've had a moderate variety of long and short, fast and slow tracks. (Blackhawk Farms would be the place to really test them. But a track too far for me.) I've not experienced "non-linear torque", they do what my big toe tells them to do.
Initial bite? The more, the better to get maximum weight transfer and maximum braking! That said, I did learn how to drive fast and race on Hawk Blues in a 2500 lb RX-7, so my perception of "too much" initial bite may be way higher than most driver's. That combination would nearly pop my eyes out of their sockets.
I'm still going to give Carbotech pads an honest try next Summer. And I'm still going to try to make you buy them from me if they suck.
(Blackhawk Farms would be the place to really test them. But a track too far for me.)
Blackhawk Farms. That's where I learned what trailing throttle oversteer was. Did my first track day ever there, in my new-to-me 2002 WRX bugeye wagon.
During my second session, I found myself doing a very mild 4 wheel drift through turn 3, a long, fast-ish, sweeping right hander. I figured I should slow down a bit, so I did what seemed like the sensible thing at the time and took my foot off the gas. Instantly found myself sliding towards the infield as the car did a slow motion 180. Car was going sideways, leading with the driver's side once I got onto the grass, and the tires on that side dug themselves deep into the soft, damp earth as the car came to an abrupt stop. Felt like the passenger side of the car lifted a couple of feet, nearly causing the car to roll, and it scared the crap out of the instructor riding with me.
I went back there a couple of months later to spectate at a vintage race, and the marks from my tires were still there. Oops, sorry about that, Mr. Groundskeeper.
Blackhawk Farms is a great track. Very rustic, very pretty scenery, really nice friendly feeling place to spend a summer day playing with cars. Before I got into doing track days myself, I used to go to the aforementioned vintage races there every year, just to watch and look at the cars. Much smaller than the big events at Road America or Laguna Seca, but enough cars to be interesting. I was one of very few spectators, I'd just give them my $10, drive in and park next to someone's race car, and hang out, always had a great time around all those beautiful old cars and knowledgeable people.
Felt like the passenger side of the car lifted a couple of feet, nearly causing the car to roll, and it scared the crap out of the instructor riding with me.
He should have been scared because it was his fault you got in trouble!
Glad you learned that lesson without bending metal or getting bloody...
Blackhawk Farms is a great track.
It has a reputation for being very hard on brakes. Great for testing different compounds.
I've been buying HP+ since 2009 and they've never had shims. Maybe you were buying HPS? Doesn't matter, really, but for sure they don't come with shims now.
You and a couple other guys have repeated this more than once, but it's just not my experience. I've never gotten them to fade, and I'm not slow. I've run all three tracks at Summit, two configurations of VIR, and new Dominion, so I've had a moderate variety of long and short, fast and slow tracks. (Blackhawk Farms would be the place to really test them. But a track too far for me.) I've not experienced "non-linear torque", they do what my big toe tells them to do.
Initial bite? The more, the better to get maximum weight transfer and maximum braking! That said, I did learn how to drive fast and race on Hawk Blues in a 2500 lb RX-7, so my perception of "too much" initial bite may be way higher than most driver's. That combination would nearly pop my eyes out of their sockets.
I'm still going to give Carbotech pads an honest try next Summer. And I'm still going to try to make you buy them from me if they suck.
Nope. Not HPS. I've had only one set of those and traded them on, as I found them to be a solution looking for a problem. I might have kept the shims, though. I have had several sets of Street/Race, which Hawk told me are just rebranded DTC-30s. That might be where all these Hawk shims came from.
How much initial bite is appropriate is a function of track condition, tire choice, alignment settings, driver preference, etc.
I brake hard and deep, but I apply gradual pressure to keep things smooth and manage the weight transfer. I did not find HP+ to respond well to that. In my situation, those pads would send me into ABS with only the slightest pressure applied to the pedal. From there, torque would decrease with more pedal pressure, then increase again dramatically with a little more pressure during heel-toe. Because of that, I would tend to over-slow on nearly every downshift. To drive well with HP+ required me to execute a dance with the brake pedal at every turn, and that is not something I want to do--especially with all the other compromises those pads present.
As for fade, all I can say is, they faded on me frequently on hot days. The main issue there, is they did not fade gradually and give me warning. They would just fall off a cliff when they got too hot and scare me half to death as I would fly into a corner with no brakes. They would come back once I cooled them down. Hated that about them.
The differences between your experience and mine with HP+ is fascinating. Wish we were closer so we could swap rides at the track. Our cars and/or our techniques must be completely different.
The way you describe ABS-inducing initial bite (too much rear brake?), followed by decreasing torque, then increasing dramatically makes me think something is wrong, or at least very, very different, with your brakes. I've never experienced anything like that with any pads on any vehicle.
Brake fade can be funexciting educational. I've been on VIR full with an FD RX-7 with street pads. They lasted almost two laps before turning to dog snot. I stayed out for the full session, just practicing brake and momentum management. Useful skills to improve.
I did get RX-8 brake fade once, first time I had it on the track (Summit main) with factory stock pads. They would come back quickly with a little nursing.
There is nothing wrong with my brakes. Do keep in mind that RX-8s have electronic proportioning, and the S2 algorithms might be different than S1 algorightms. With the ECU trying to keep me out of ABS and me trying to threshold brake (using pads with tons of initial bite), things can get unpredictable quickly.
The differences between your experience and mine with HP+ is fascinating.
Apparently there are a lot of variables that determine what pads will work well with particular car. Weight, rotors, speeds, driving style, tires, abs or not, track layout, etc.
The HP+ are the only high performance pads I've ever tried, so I can only compare them to stock or generic auto parts store pads. They were definitely a big improvement in my Miatas over those on track.
I've done dozens and dozens of autocrosses in my Miatas with them and a quite a few track days, and have no complaints. They work well cold, they work well hot. No grabbiness, no fade. I like them on the street, autocrossing and on the track. Neither Miata has abs, I have no idea if I'd like the HP+ as well with abs.
I don't know if I'll like them as much on the RX, but so far I've got no complaints. As a matter of fact, on my very first autocross run in the car, at the first element where I had to brake hard, I was surprised and amazed at how good the brakes were, and that was with the scored rotors.
I'm posting this not because I want to be right, but just to describe my experience with them. I think if someone is shopping around for pads it's a good thing to hear about different people's experiences. The reason I bought them in the first place is they seemed intended to fill my needs for a street/track pad and I heard more good than bad about them.
Iirc, when I first bought them a few years ago, Hawk marketed them as a dual purpose pad, but now they are marketing them as a race pad. That's how they're advertised on the Tire Rack site. I think that perhaps Steve's comment about Hawk's marketing statements might have been not just amusing, but accurate.
What pads do people recommend for good linear torque with predictable brake fade if it occurs?
I am running some EBC bluestuff pads on my rx7 FD and they have a ton of initial bite, so much that I can't control between locking up the brakes vrs. non-lock up. I want something with less initial bite and much better modulation/feel. I have been searching for a while for the right brake pad. The person before me bought Duralast C-max ceramic pads and they have a lot less initial bite and I think good modulation, just need more seat time and aggressive driving in the car before I can really evaluate these pads and see what I don't like about them. I seem to value less bite, good pedal feel to control braking at the limit. I don't like brake pads that are very difficult to feel between lock up and not locking up. Perhaps I just have a heavy braking foot?
FD RX-7 brakes are not nearly as good as the RX-8's, and it's a faster car. I don't think XP10's are going to have the headroom needed if they fade on an RX-8. Assuming the driver is fast.
Lookatme, what is your application and experience? Track novice? Autocross pro? professional racer? Are you braking with your toes or the ball of your foot? Bluestuff are dedicated track pads, and your description suggests you may not be going fast enough to need them. This is also probably the wrong place to ask about pads for the FD, you really ought to ask on rx7club forum. A decade ago I used to run an FD with a pack of other guys with FDs. We all ran Hawk Blues front, blacks in the rear and found them to be just right, if dusty as the desert.
Hawk DTC60 for me (but I haven't tried Carbotech). They do all the things well enough and don't need a separate set of track rotors. I'm not at a point where I'm going to win races on braking finesse.
I'm with wanklebolt - running Hawk pads and love the strong bite. Started with HPS, then HP+, now HT-10s. Have NT01 tires so grip is very good, achieving eye-popping deceleration without ABS intervention. Early on, I did overheat and fade the HPS and HP+ pads, but then I installed some front cooling ducts and never thought about it again. Stock rotors & calipers. My local tracks work the brakes pretty hard: Laguna Seca, Thunderhill, Sonoma Raceway (California).
Regarding the OP, I agree you can run HP+ on the street if you can tolerate some noise and more dust. But when I "de-track" my car (soften the shocks, reinstall the catalytic converter) I also swap in my street pads...I don't want to wear down my precious $$$ track pads on the street!
FD RX-7 brakes are not nearly as good as the RX-8's, and it's a faster car. I don't think XP10's are going to have the headroom needed if they fade on an RX-8. Assuming the driver is fast.
Lookatme, what is your application and experience? Track novice? Autocross pro? professional racer? Are you braking with your toes or the ball of your foot? Bluestuff are dedicated track pads, and your description suggests you may not be going fast enough to need them. This is also probably the wrong place to ask about pads for the FD, you really ought to ask on rx7club forum. A decade ago I used to run an FD with a pack of other guys with FDs. We all ran Hawk Blues front, blacks in the rear and found them to be just right, if dusty as the desert.
LOL! Didn't we all just agree, what pads to use depends on a lot of parameters?
If XP10 / XP8 won't get it for him, XP12 / XP10 definitely will. If he wants to run Carbotech pads, he should call them and ask Mike Jr for a recommendation. He gets it right more often than not.
I have tried the 12 /10 combination, and they are great, but I find 10 / 8 to give me more control and therefore faster downshifts with heel/toe.
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 12-24-2016 at 10:23 AM.
OP here. Here's a follow up. I've put on only about 1000 miles on the car since I quieted the brakes, and they are back to being really noisy. I did do one track day, and they were fine there, but the noise on the street is just not acceptable. I don't know why my Miatas are fine, but the RX isn't with the same pads. I wonder if Hawk changed the compound but kept the name, because the Miata pads are several years old, and I think the RX pads are much newer, installed by the previous owner.
They might be rotor-sensitive. I have had several people at the track tell me my experience with them did not match theirs, just like wankelbolt above. I think they were all Miata people, though. Could it have to do with the weight of the car?
I dunno. I'm still happily rocking Carbotechs on my RX-8 and my Miata.
Sounds about right, OP. I don't have an explanation, but I could get the HP+s to quiet down for brief periods. After a track day or a couple of weeks of daily they would start to howl again.
Sounds about right, OP. I don't have an explanation, but I could get the HP+s to quiet down for brief periods. After a track day or a couple of weeks of daily they would start to howl again.
As for that that part, I totally agree. I could clean, burnish, and re-grease the pads, and they would quiet down decently until they got hot again. It is a lot of work to do between track days, so I just switched pads.
12-17-2016, 07:57 PM
