Rotaries Run Hot?
#1
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New York, Northern NYC Burbs
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rotaries Run Hot?
I keep reading about that rotary engines run hot. Does anyone know what the normal operating temparature for an RX8? Unfortunately you can't tell by the tmeperature gauge that has no numbers.
#3
Originally Posted by salituro64
I keep reading about that rotary engines run hot. Does anyone know what the normal operating temparature for an RX8? Unfortunately you can't tell by the tmeperature gauge that has no numbers.
#4
Mmmmm... Rotary Donut
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL (NW Chicago Burbs)
Posts: 2,376
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Looking at the shop manual, the thermostat fully opens at ~200F, and oil pressure is repeatedly defined as being measured at 212F... so I would guesstimate the normal operating temp is between 200F and 220F.
The exhaust/cat temps that Jason mentioned above are definitely hotter than normal (piston) engine cars. Normal warmed-up cat temps at idle are supposed to be around 1000F, and I've see the 1700F+ readings with my canscan during hard runs.
The exhaust/cat temps that Jason mentioned above are definitely hotter than normal (piston) engine cars. Normal warmed-up cat temps at idle are supposed to be around 1000F, and I've see the 1700F+ readings with my canscan during hard runs.
#6
Registered
212 for oil temperature is dangerously high for a rotary. Under no circumstances have you ever wanted oil temps over 200 degrees F. I can't believe that this would be different for the Renesis. Optimally you don't want the coolant over this either.
#7
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New York, Northern NYC Burbs
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So at 200 degrees, the rotarty engine (not the CAT) itself does not run much hotter compared to a normal piston egine. Don't normal piston engines run at around 190?
#8
Mmmmm... Rotary Donut
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lake in the Hills, IL (NW Chicago Burbs)
Posts: 2,376
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Originally Posted by rotarygod
212 for oil temperature is dangerously high for a rotary. Under no circumstances have you ever wanted oil temps over 200 degrees F. I can't believe that this would be different for the Renesis. Optimally you don't want the coolant over this either.
#9
I am not a rotarygod or anything, but I thought that the rotary engine does run hot, which is the reason for having oil coolers.
It might not operate hot because of it's radiators and oil coolers, but they are the cure for the symptoms.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as that is only a conclusion I drew from thinking about it. I have no idea about the safe operating oil temperature or anything like that. And the above hypothesis probably has nothing to do with the original question. I'm just musing aloud.
I know twin turbo rx-7's ran extremely hot because of turbochargers and catalytic converter proximity required for meeting emissions, and was one of their serious shortfalls, and that the automatic transmission model only had one oil cooler, which further exacerbated the problem. (well, that and plastic radiators, and a vacuum hose spaghetti mess with a short lifespan due to excessive engine bay heat). Ya all should be grateful the rx-8 didn't inherit the rx-7 laundry list of problems .
It might not operate hot because of it's radiators and oil coolers, but they are the cure for the symptoms.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as that is only a conclusion I drew from thinking about it. I have no idea about the safe operating oil temperature or anything like that. And the above hypothesis probably has nothing to do with the original question. I'm just musing aloud.
I know twin turbo rx-7's ran extremely hot because of turbochargers and catalytic converter proximity required for meeting emissions, and was one of their serious shortfalls, and that the automatic transmission model only had one oil cooler, which further exacerbated the problem. (well, that and plastic radiators, and a vacuum hose spaghetti mess with a short lifespan due to excessive engine bay heat). Ya all should be grateful the rx-8 didn't inherit the rx-7 laundry list of problems .
Last edited by dragula53; 12-02-2004 at 10:54 AM.
#10
Ahead of its time
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dragula53
.. the rotary engine does run hot, which is the reason for having oil coolers....
The effect of having two extremely hot rotors cooled only by engine oil causes heat soaking of the housings and endplates. As coolant runs thru the housings and endplates it must remove the "excess" heat in the heat soaked engine parts. Water temps increase as well which make a larger radiator necessary.
Also, remember Work = Heat. Noone can argue that the rotors aren't working their little hearts out for us!
So the moral to the story. Make sure you have adequate oil levels and that you change the oil OFTEN. Oil is atomized thru venturi ports so they are very, very small. Clog them with dirt and you WILL be replacing the engine.
Last edited by valpac; 12-02-2004 at 11:37 PM.
#11
Originally Posted by valpac
Oil in a piston engine does pretty much single duty, lubrication. In a rotary, the oil does double duty, lubrication AND cooling. Since water has no way to reach the rotars, they are cooled as oils is sprayed thru venturi ports in the eccentric shaft. Engine oil retains heat more than coolant and therfore not as efficient at cooling the engine. Oil temps increase which make oil coolers necessary.
The effect of having two extremely hot rotars cooled only by engine oil causes heat soaking of the housings and endplates. As coolant runs thru the housings and endplates it must remove the "excess" heat in the heat soaked engine parts. Water temps increase as well which make a larger radiator necessary.
Also, remember Work = Heat. Noone can argue that the rotars aren't working their little hearts out for us!
So the moral to the story. Make sure you have adequate oil levels and that you change the oil OFTEN. Oil is atomized thru venturi ports so they are very, very small. Clog them with dirt and you WILL be replacing the engine.
The effect of having two extremely hot rotars cooled only by engine oil causes heat soaking of the housings and endplates. As coolant runs thru the housings and endplates it must remove the "excess" heat in the heat soaked engine parts. Water temps increase as well which make a larger radiator necessary.
Also, remember Work = Heat. Noone can argue that the rotars aren't working their little hearts out for us!
So the moral to the story. Make sure you have adequate oil levels and that you change the oil OFTEN. Oil is atomized thru venturi ports so they are very, very small. Clog them with dirt and you WILL be replacing the engine.
I was under the impression that combustion chamber shape was what caused heat soak. Something along the lines of more surface area for heat to be absorbed. And then the oil running through an already heat soaked engine gets hot, so needs to be cooled. Oil gets injected into the side housings and other places, because it has to lubricate, and is just the way it is for a rotary to be lubricated. I'm not really certain I am correct, but this is the way I understood it. I welcome the opportunity to be educated, so anybody can feel free to refute any of the above statements.
#12
Ahead of its time
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yw, dragula.
yes, the heat soak comes from "uncooled" rotars flying aroung the rotar housing. The oil is sprayed inside the hollow rotors (opposite of combustion surfaces) just to keep them from melt down. They pretty much stay very hot all the time. No way around that really.
I asked a friend (raced RX-7's SCCA) why can't coolant be injected into the rotors instead of oil. He said the only way water is effective is in large volumes. You can't have large quantities of water sloshing around inside the rotors (balance would be all messed up). Plus water would steam, seep past the side and corners seals right into the combustion chambers. Not good. If oil gets around the side seals into the combustion chamber, no big deal as it's there already. That explains why more oil is consumed when the car is driven hard. Oil is mixed with gas via the sump (continuously and varies w/ RPM's) and some "thin" oil bypasses the seals as well. Another reason to have "fresh" oil in the engine.
Oil is SO important to the health and longevity of the rotary engine. If I could afford it, I'd replace it every 1000 miles. I'm on a less than 3000 mile schedule anyway, so I'm not gonna sweat it too much.
yes, the heat soak comes from "uncooled" rotars flying aroung the rotar housing. The oil is sprayed inside the hollow rotors (opposite of combustion surfaces) just to keep them from melt down. They pretty much stay very hot all the time. No way around that really.
I asked a friend (raced RX-7's SCCA) why can't coolant be injected into the rotors instead of oil. He said the only way water is effective is in large volumes. You can't have large quantities of water sloshing around inside the rotors (balance would be all messed up). Plus water would steam, seep past the side and corners seals right into the combustion chambers. Not good. If oil gets around the side seals into the combustion chamber, no big deal as it's there already. That explains why more oil is consumed when the car is driven hard. Oil is mixed with gas via the sump (continuously and varies w/ RPM's) and some "thin" oil bypasses the seals as well. Another reason to have "fresh" oil in the engine.
Oil is SO important to the health and longevity of the rotary engine. If I could afford it, I'd replace it every 1000 miles. I'm on a less than 3000 mile schedule anyway, so I'm not gonna sweat it too much.
Last edited by valpac; 12-02-2004 at 11:38 PM.
#14
Registered
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: New York, Northern NYC Burbs
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Based on all this information, thanks a lot, I am going to stay with dino oil rather than risk synthetic. Oil seems to be a siignificant part of the equation in the proper function of the rotary. Thanks again for eveyone's input. Very informative.
#15
Ahead of its time
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by dragula53
appreciate the info.
http://www.monito.com/wankel/rce.html
#16
Kaiten Kenbu Rokuren
Originally Posted by truemagellen
9000Rpms you do the math :D
#17
Registered
Originally Posted by valpac
Oil is mixed with gas via the sump (continuously and varies w/ RPM's) and some "thin" oil bypasses the seals as well. Another reason to have "fresh" oil in the engine.
I understand the phenomena that causes this in piston engines--I think--but the rotary is obviously a much different animal as far as cooling/lubrication goes.
Thanks!
#18
Ahead of its time
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Go48
...how oil moves from the sump through the engine and back to the sump? My oil has a faint strange smell that smacks of gas, which I gather is not too unusual, but I would just like to better understand how the gas gets into the oil in a rotary engine.
The gas smell is likely coming from seepage past the various seals. On the side of the rotor there are side seals (sealing combustion/exhaust), corner seals (round seals that make the side seals continuous along the perimeter of the rotor), and oil o-ring and oil scraper. The scraper kinda acts like an oil squeegee on the side housing. As I said before, oil is in this area to cool the rotor and lubricates the eccentric bearing. This oil recycles through the engine.
If oil gets by the scraper and o-ring (inevitable) and gas gets by the side/corner seals (also inevitable) than the oil is gonna get contaminated with gas , hence the smell.
Oil and gas are always in very close proximity with each other. Look at the attached picture, the distance between the scraper and side seal midway between the apexes is small. Some mixing is going to occur. Its normal.
Last edited by valpac; 12-02-2004 at 11:35 PM.
#19
Absolute Rotary Madness
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Thessaloniki, Greece
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
valpac:
your information is absolutely amazing and valuable. Thanks.
Please bare with me, I'd like to ask you something that made me wonder the last few days:
I known racer here in my country has an RX8 for a couple of months now, he has modded the hell out of it, and when he gave me a ride (although the car has only 15000km) I found out it is VERY fast, compared to stock.
We talked for a while, he said that all the car's fluids are changed, because he pushes it to the limit all the time. What caught my attention, is that he uses RACING OIL, full synthentic. To be more specific MOTUL racing oil 5w-30. He also said he keeps changing it every 2000km (its pricy, but he can afford it).
What do you think about the 'full synthetic' part, the brand and the freuqency he's changing it?
Furthermore, an aftermarket radiator (like the MS one), will it help the rotary engine with the heat problems?
Thanks
p.s. Sorry if this post is irrelevant to the topic. If thread starter wants me to delete it, I will.
your information is absolutely amazing and valuable. Thanks.
Please bare with me, I'd like to ask you something that made me wonder the last few days:
I known racer here in my country has an RX8 for a couple of months now, he has modded the hell out of it, and when he gave me a ride (although the car has only 15000km) I found out it is VERY fast, compared to stock.
We talked for a while, he said that all the car's fluids are changed, because he pushes it to the limit all the time. What caught my attention, is that he uses RACING OIL, full synthentic. To be more specific MOTUL racing oil 5w-30. He also said he keeps changing it every 2000km (its pricy, but he can afford it).
What do you think about the 'full synthetic' part, the brand and the freuqency he's changing it?
Furthermore, an aftermarket radiator (like the MS one), will it help the rotary engine with the heat problems?
Thanks
p.s. Sorry if this post is irrelevant to the topic. If thread starter wants me to delete it, I will.
#20
Registered
Originally Posted by valpac
<<SNIPPED>>
Oil and gas are always in very close proximity with each other. Look at the attached picture, the distance between the scraper and side seal midway between the apexes is small. Some mixing is going to occur. Its normal.
#21
FREE ADVICE!
One of the warnings I did receive from a rotary mechanic I know, was if you've been running your car on a hot day for an extended period of time, do NOT park it on the grass. It will set you lawn on fire. In fact, there was a thread in here a while back of someone who parked theirs in their garage over arag, and it caught fire, causing considerable smoke damage.
#22
Ahead of its time
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RotorManiac
...
he uses RACING OIL, full synthentic. .... he keeps changing it every 2000km
he uses RACING OIL, full synthentic. .... he keeps changing it every 2000km
Frequency of oil changes is more important than type of oil used. Change it as often as you can afford, EVERY 3000 miles, religiously. Or less.
#23
Ahead of its time
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: GA
Posts: 1,508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As an aside. When rotary engines were first introduced in this country, they got a real bad rap. And here's why.
Most people were used to piston engines. They don't use oil by design and new engines usually never burn oil. So new Rotary car owners were either never told that rotaries use oil or didnt believe it if they were told. Consequently, they just drove 'em. And what happens is catastrophic.
When oil is gone, the rotors over heat. Since the rotor housing is aluminum and the side housings are cast iron, they behave differently when heated to the extreme. The rotor housing would warp, water would get past the O-rings and contact the scalding rotor, cracking them. Water now mixes with oil (very bad). If the car runs at all, it runs very badly until all the water exits the car in the form of white smoke (mosquito truck effect).
Check your oil often.
Most people were used to piston engines. They don't use oil by design and new engines usually never burn oil. So new Rotary car owners were either never told that rotaries use oil or didnt believe it if they were told. Consequently, they just drove 'em. And what happens is catastrophic.
When oil is gone, the rotors over heat. Since the rotor housing is aluminum and the side housings are cast iron, they behave differently when heated to the extreme. The rotor housing would warp, water would get past the O-rings and contact the scalding rotor, cracking them. Water now mixes with oil (very bad). If the car runs at all, it runs very badly until all the water exits the car in the form of white smoke (mosquito truck effect).
Check your oil often.
#24
Registered
Originally Posted by Razpewton
One of the warnings I did receive from a rotary mechanic I know, was if you've been running your car on a hot day for an extended period of time, do NOT park it on the grass. It will set you lawn on fire. In fact, there was a thread in here a while back of someone who parked theirs in their garage over arag, and it caught fire, causing considerable smoke damage.
#25
mostly harmless
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Greater Vancouver Area, BC
Posts: 3,440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by valpac
I asked a friend (raced RX-7's SCCA) why can't coolant be injected into the rotors instead of oil. He said the only way water is effective is in large volumes. You can't have large quantities of water sloshing around inside the rotors (balance would be all messed up). Plus water would steam, seep past the side and corners seals right into the combustion chambers. Not good. If oil gets around the side seals into the combustion chamber, no big deal as it's there already. That explains why more oil is consumed when the car is driven hard. Oil is mixed with gas via the sump (continuously and varies w/ RPM's) and some "thin" oil bypasses the seals as well. Another reason to have "fresh" oil in the engine.
anyways, whatever the case, you can't do it.
with modern detergants, dirt contamination isn't such a deal as it used to be with the molecules suspended so don't everyone start freaking out and changing at intervals smaller than the manufacturer's recommended (which are already as close as they think the maintence service market will bear).