Claudio RX-7

Well, its finally here! Along with the new Sprint RE, which now has provisions for the RX-8 Renesis trigger (which will find its way soon to the Sport units)!!

Lots of incredible features! Plenty of tuning capabilities! With ECU Manager no job is impossible! With adjustable resolution for all tables, custom sensor inputs, a very wide variety of output and input control options, Haltech Platinum Sport/Sprint ECUs offer the most bang for the buck when it comes to tuning your engine right!

To download the latest version of software please visit the Haltech website:

Download ECU Manager 1.07.2 here!

Please review the new feature updates and fixes, although most of them are for the Platinum Pro Plug in ECUs, the Sprint RE will be the new kid on the block for rotary tuning.

Some points to be aware off, the wiring harness for the Sprint RE (and Sprint 500) come as long flying lead, but, with no fuses or relays, they are better suited for piggyback/parallel style installations using an extension/jumper harness to tie them into the factory systems. If you are looking to do a full stand alone system, then we suggest the Sport 1000/2000 systems which will have the fuses and relays added to them.

In the future we may have a full harness option for the sprints, and i am currently working on transforming E6X flying lead long harnesses into a sprint long flying lead harness, i will post pics as soon as its done.

A little bit of info on the new Sprint RE, its Haltech's new entry level package system, its a simplified Sport 1000, it consist of 4 ignition outputs and 4 injector outputs, its only capable of running high impedance injectors, but Haltech offers a resistor box that can be used when necessary. The unit has dedicated outputs for Fan and fuel pump, a dedicated input for aux. rev limit (2step), 2 generic duty outputs that could be used to control 2 of the solenoids needed to operated the intake manifold aux. butterflies, wideband O2 control using the dedicated O2 sensor input, onboard 22psi map sensor, or an external can be used, 16x16 adjustable resolution, etc.. It is a basic system, but will give you control over the ignition and fuel.

If anybody has any questions please feel free to contact your local Haltech dealer, or the Haltech US office directly!

Thanks and enjoy!

Salamanth

This would be great, but we have 6 injectors

rotarenvy

however it should work with series two engines that don't have a good affordable ecu yet?
you can also delete 2 injectors on the series 1 six port.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Claudio...

What setup does that map represent...stock injectors...with the sec and P2's wired to fire together?

Or something else?

When is the Sport 1000 going to support the RX-8 trigger.....the RE is a cool unit..but hasn't got enough aux's for my system to work

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Yeah, the Sport/Sprint is not gonna have enough channels to be really useful on the RX-8.
It will essentially work like the Int-X as a pseudo-pigyback, only (I would assume) with significantly improved stability.

It might be an option for the second-gen RX-8, but it will still have the same streetcar issues as the other piggy-backs (low-speed/idle granularity, no control for DBW, APV and MOP and CELs all over the place).

I'd definitely consider it for an entry-level race-only setup, though.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Just their retort for the MoTeC M2R, but not enough features for an RX-8, not even in parallel use IMO

Claudio RX-7

Hey guys, Yes! All valid points, the Sprint is as i stated, "entry level system" and the feature list is very short, using the resistor box you can use it to control all 6 injectors, pairing up 4 as sequentials, or, and i have yet to test this, use the 2 aux. outputs set to Generic duty RPM vs Load (with the resistor box too) to control the other 2 in a rudimentary fashion.

Right now i can tell you guys that RX-8 support with the Sport units is comming, and they CAN! handle the OMP, and the added solenoids. The only thing we cant control at the moment is the aux. ports. I realize that the Sprint isnt really fitted with enough outputs, but this will just be the first solution from Haltech, which i know in the end will be adequate.

What i would like to know is what would be the volume of deman for a full standalone (or ECU replacement) option for the 8. The bare bones question would be, how many units would we sell if we had something fully capable of running the whole car?

If someone is willing to meet Haltech halfway, then there's always a possibility.

In the mean time, im sure you are all in agreement when i say that the Sprint RE ecu, being a 922 dollar (retail cost) would there be a decent starting point.

Also, in retrospect, the Sport units can be installed in the RX-8 using either S3/S4 Haltech sensors, or the FD crank trigger, then you'd have enough inputs and outputs to go around to control pretty much everything but the Aux. Intake ports valves.

Thanks for all the feedback, keep it coming.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

At $500 - $700, you could expect to sell about 300 units over the next 3 years or so.

Claudio RX-7

What stand alone that does all that needs to be done on the 8 could possibly cost that little? Its impossible to get that kind of functionality from an ECU reliably, and have it cost that low.

Having said that, how far along is the ECU reflashing come? I am pretty out of the loop on what you can do. Does OpenECU.org have something? Or does COBB let you tweak the entire thing to get the results you need?

How much does the InterceptorX cost? AEM FIC? Motec M2R? eManage Ultimate (complete)? COBB tuner suite?

Also, another thing i can think about is, do we want a stand alone ECU that can do ALL that the stock ECU does, including CAN data, dash control, etc., or do we just need something to control the engine and its accessories only? You have to remember, if you want everything you gotta pay for it, DBW, all the ports and actuators to control, the aux. intake ports, the OMP, all that takes firstly some serious development budget, not to mention the liability costs that go into any kind of ECU that has DBW control, which is the main reason some manufacturers label their ECUs as "For Off Road Use Only!", technically an ECU that controls the DBW needs to be covered in some form of liability that the aftermarket just does not do. The OEMs do it, cause A. they have the budget, and B. they have to so their cars can be used on public roads. Hey, look at toyota, how a little thing like a bad pedal assembly kills a great car company slowly.

But thats not important, if we can let the stock ECU handle all the things we really dont wanna control, AC, DBW, CAN network, dash/gauges, cruise control, traction control, ect., and just take control of the engine completely wouldnt that be worth something?

From what ive read, and please correct me if im wrong MazdaManiac, the Cobb reflash improves the OMP, right? and removes a few limiters and cuts you dont want? If we had that + an ECU that can control the injection correctly, the ignition properly, the aux. intake ports, and all the other butterflies and actuators, wouldnt that be worth investing a grand or 2?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Unfortunately, that is the price-point you would have to hit to be competitive.
The Sprint has, essentially, the same functionality as the GReddy e-Manage.

The Cobb does absolutely everything (modifies all the OEM fueling and spark tables, controls the throttle and MOP mapping, alters the S-DAIS, fans, idle, closed AND open loop transitions and can manipulate all the sensors and the CEL), is plug-n-play and is only $495.

Int-X is gone, FIC and M2R are no more useful on the RX-8 than the Sprint RE, e-Manage Ultimate is about $450 on the street and the Cobb AccessTUNER RACE software is free.

What you would need is a truly universal PCM like the AEM 30-1900U with a P-n-P harness for around $1k to be truly competitive.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I have an E8 on mine....but there are software functionality problems I'm not too happy with.

Would love to have DBW support and the ability to run the APV as well

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Don't think "everything" is totally truthful..it does most things....very well.....but it doesn't allow full fuel control.....and at some point the MAF is going to need to be rescaled ....not sure at this point how that's going to go. It is already finicky

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

It doesn't? Coulda fooled me. Which part doesn't it control?

So, rescale it. An oval pipe section with the minor diameter = OE (3.375") and the major diameter at 4" will flow 30% more air and leave the MAF scaling in-place. Re-scale the injectors to match and you are off to the races.

That is for a different thread, though.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

How about the way the PCM stages the injectors...and the relationships between injector sizes that the PCM needs to allow the injector sizing to work with it....

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

And? Is there a problem with that?
It's perfectly linear and allows for an open-ended quantity of fuel.
As long as the ratio from one bank to the next (something that is true for ALL engine management systems if they are properly set-up, which they aren't half the time), you could have 10,000cc of fuel if you wanted it and delivery would be a completely linear ramp from idle to maximum duty cycle.

So far, the only people that have had difficulty with that staging are the people that don't get how it actually works.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

Well...you definitely know more about that than me,,,all I have seen are the problems...not the solutions...so I guess that explains it

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Really, the argument could be made that the Haltec, Motec, Bosch, Microtech and AEM systems are actually "fixed" in that the injector staging is preset.
The OEM PCM adapts the staging based on demand.

I'd be interested to hear what "problems" this has actually caused other than frustration on the part of some who simply want to change things so they can say they changed them.

bse50

What do you think about the HKS fcon vpro as another alternative? Given that real stand alones are expensive and useless on a street-car...

Claudio RX-7

This is a very good point, the staging point is fixed in pretty much all of these systems, do you have any info to post on how the stock ECU does it? Now, you also have to remember, the stock ECU IS, for lack of a better description, the most advanced system there could ever be, thanks to the millions of dollars poured into it by the manufacturer. The problem with the OEM ECU reflashing that i can see is only how it can be a little tricky and uncomfortable to do since you have to read, log, program, read log program log again, etc., and you do have to be really patient with mods as well as tuning. The other point is the MAF and injector scaling you spoke about, as you said, to keep the stock ECU in check, and this is in fact a work around, you need to maintain the diameters, flow characteristics and match the injectors so that the math in the ECU works. The problems people have when they go with a stand alone or any other system is that they try to simply go with the upgrade route and compare mods to other applications, when in fact your point is a very good one, keep it proportional and it will work great, but there are limits none the less.

The other thing that really gets my panties in a bunch is cost, realistically you do have to admit that the numbers you mention on the emanage, aem, or other things like that are "street" value prices of used goods that are in fact so ridiculously devalued that you cant compare them to anything, especially to a new product that would be launched by a company that has spent a lot on it to get it right (not talking about the sprint specifically).

Yes, it would be great if any ECU existed that did everything and cost 1000 bucks, but that is not reality. Im sure there will eventually be either a software reflash option that will let you do PLENTY for very little money, but when you want to go beyond the scope of what the stock ECU will handle , then a stand alone will let you do enough of what needs to be done. I guess in retroscpect, how much modding is being done to the stock engine, how much does it actually hold without swapping in an older motor to justify something other than the reflash options, especially when putting in a turbo?

In the mean time, im sure we all agree that having options is still a good thing.

Oh, and i honestly would not compare the eManage to the sprint, the eMan is a piggyback modifying crank and maf signals, the Sprint is a full stand alone, limted yes, but a stand alone none the less.

Hey! I hope this does not turn into a violent debate, we're all colleagues here, trying to find solutions for the common tuneability ailement. :D

Claudio RX-7

Dannobre, I will agree that the E8 software platform is somewhat of a pain to use sometimes, but the functionality in the ECU is there and the hardware works. If you would like to upgrade your ECU to an Sport (if you are using a custom trigger which i would suppose you are) that would not be a problem, you can sell your ECU and purchase a Sport box and it connects right up to your E8 harness, the pinout is nearly identical, with only one exception, the trigger input wires, but if you're using a Hall sensor then its not going to be any problems.

Depending on your E8's age/version, you would either have or not the auxiliary inputs and outputs that were later included to match more of the E11's, but the wires werent on the harness you had to add them later. With the Sport those features are there so all you would need would be a few extra pins to include them.

These outputs/input are:

- Aux. Out2 (on the E8, you only had Aux. Out1) which are now called DPO17 and 18.
- Timed 1 and 2 (only timed 3 was on the E8) which are now called DPI's 1, 2 and 3.

Aux out 1 and 2 (DPO17 and DPO18) were the other optional injector outputs that can be set as "Extra Injectors" in the software and when the staging point is met they will switch on together with the secondaries, OR!, a nice little trick is to wire their power wire to a relay, and have an output trigger the relay based on load, rpm, throttle, or any setpoint you want to actually have the tertiary injection stage. This can actually also be done on the E8, if your hardware does not have the added output you can always configure the voltage option in the software for that output to 5A and connect up to 2 low imp. injectors to Aux. Out 1.

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

Not at all. I think its a great discussion.

I've discussed it elsewhere, but the turn-on points are governed by load. All 3 injectors are, essentially in a "pool" that can be called on as required.
There seem to be some hard-coded minimums where the injectors will NOT come on, but every time I think I'm certain of where that point must be, I am able to get the S and P2 to come one earlier.
So, fuel delivery volume is directly tied to load, which is a calculation based on mass airflow (which is absolute) and engine Ve, referenced to RPM, throttle position, barometric pressure and ambient temperature.

True.

Well, that should be true about ANY engine management tuning. That is one of the complaints I have about many of the "solutions" - they are intentionally coarse as to cover ham-fisted tuning.

Not really true.
You could replace the MAF with anything you wanted (as long as it made 5 volts).
The problem is - and this goes directly to price - is that most people just aren't interested. The vast majority out there simply aren't going for that level of power or control.
The number of RX-8s sold has diminshed by half every year since it's introduction. Of that number, only a fraction of the owners will modify their vehicles and only a fraction of a fraction will demand more from their EMS than what the OE PCM can deliver.

No, the prices I mentioned are for BRAND NEW units, not used. Cost is gonna make or break you and the average Joe thinks anything over $300 is robbery. lol That is what you are up against.
So, when a solution like the AccessPORT is available for $495 and the e-Manage (no matter what you think of it) is less than $600, it is going to be a hard sell for a device that is essentially the same functionality as the Interceptor-X for $1000.
The vast majority of the users want the car to drive like stock until they get on it.

Everything? That would be the OE PCM and all the flashing options which are less than $1000.
Now, if you want a Swiss Army knife for a PCM, that exists as well, but no, it's not $1000. Its ten times that in the form of the Bosch ECU.

Like what? What needs to be done that can't by the PCM? Control nitrous? Run two-step?

My main contention with any new product will be the retention of the OE drivability and function.
Right now, NONE of the external options do this.

When I do finally convert the RX-8 to LS2, I will use a stand-alone EMS to control the engine, but I will still retain the factory PCM (and flash it accordingly) to keep the appearance of emissions compliance and maintain the creature comforts like ABS, TCS/DSC and the cluster and immobilizer.

Claudio RX-7

Yeah MM, im with you all the way, the stock PCM is by far the best choice, if it can be tweaked to allow for max performance as well, i am all for using the OEM ecu when i have total control of it.

The driveability aspects of the tune will always depend on the abilities of the guy behind the keyboard, and of course if the owner is willing to go the extra mile and get it tuned right, but as we all know most will just want the car NOW! ASAP! driving perfect, better than stock, making better power.

So you're slapping a V8 motor on it? What EMS will you use? I would think you'd stick with a stock GM ecu seeing as you can do wonders with HP Tuners or EFI Live. :D

Also, on the MAF deletion option, you know how that works, its a very long process of datalogging and setting it up so that first you get the same results as stock, then you modify, right? Very tedious.

Anyway, im hopeful we'll eventually have a great option as standalones go, and we'll be able to do what we want. But id love to see the software used to tune the stock ECU, do you have that somewhere i could look at, along with a stock file?

MazdaManiac

iTrader: (3)

I haven't thought about which ECU to use in that conversion yet, but Haltech is a possibility.
I don't want to bother with the GM harness since the Mazda harness will still be mostly there.
Its gonna be a weird hybrid!

I'm not knocking the Sprint RE - I know its gonna be a highly competent product.
I just don't think there is enough market out there to really put too much effort into it until there are more budget-conscious, purpose-built racing RX-8s out there.

carbonRX8

iTrader: (1)

Kinda off topic, but RE: injector staging:

If one needs to keep the P1:SEC injector ratios close to the stock ratio, and one upgrades the secondaries and P2s to 650cc/min, does this mean that one CANNOT use the original reds in the P1 position??? Or, rather, would it just be that you have to work around with scaling the injectors, but that it would work eventually???







And Jeef... I know you are playing hard to get....

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

The only big problem with the software are the "bugs" with things that should work....that I find very problematic. There are work arounds for all of them I think..but not being able to properly calibrate sensors, and problems with the throttle pumps and a few other things are annoying.



Thanks for the info..... I am weighing my options at this time.....trying to remain on the program so to speak........Hoping that the new software will soon have features that support that