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There is no redesign, the S2 RX-8's have the same issue.
Yes, having a working sensor is a good idea for noobs but not everyone needs it. I have a custom coolant reservoir, I have never missed the sensor. But I am very in tune with my car and coolant temp is always displayed on the LCD screen VIA the Goodbox.
I have two coolant reservoirs with visual sights. The one on the left is engine coolant (Evans waterless coolant), the one on the right is turbo coolant (Prestone 50/50).
I have read many times that when the needle on the gauge starts moving to the hot side, the engine is already overheating, and that can damage the engine quickly.
I've read people disputing it, but I would always choose to err on the side of caution.
If I had personal experience with it, then I might think differently.
You can say I'm overreacting, but I think telling new members to not worry about disabling a warning light is irresponsible.
If even one person did it and then ruined their engine because they didn't notice it until it was too late, that's one too many.
I'm not saying people don't believe that but it surely doesn't mean it's true and mazsurfer is just a normal Joe with an opinion. But the gauge does what it is intended to use, there is a reason for these types of less specific gauges and there is a reason new Mazdas don't have a coolant gauge at all. That reason is idiot owners.
As for the part numbers, well part numbers change for a lot of reasons and that does not indicate a design change. There are quite a few parts that have been directly compared and appear identical but have different part numbers just because they are from different year RX-8's. I know this because the R3 I have was a complete car and I have pulled and compared many parts. The PPF for example, was listed in the changes thread as being different and it was identical and weighed the same as my S1 PPF. Teamrx8 also identified a few suspension parts bought new from Mazda for a S2 RX-8 that were identical to the parts he pulled off his 2005.
But for arguments sake, I will pull the reservoir from the R3 and compare it to the coolant reservoir that was bought new from Mazda with the sensor in it and used for about 6 months before I installed the custom setup. I will take some pics comparing both to show you they are identical.
I'm not saying people don't believe that but it surely doesn't mean it's true and mazsurfer is just a normal Joe with an opinion. But the gauge does what it is intended to use, there is a reason for these types of less specific gauges and there is a reason new Mazdas don't have a coolant gauge at all. That reason is idiot owners.
As for the part numbers, well part numbers change for a lot of reasons and that does not indicate a design change. There are quite a few parts that have been directly compared and appear identical but have different part numbers just because they are from different year RX-8's. I know this because the R3 I have was a complete car and I have pulled and compared many parts. The PPF for example, was listed in the changes thread as being different and it was identical and weighed the same as my S1 PPF. Teamrx8 also identified a few suspension parts bought new from Mazda for a S2 RX-8 that were identical to the parts he pulled off his 2005.
But for arguments sake, I will pull the reservoir from the R3 and compare it to the coolant reservoir that was bought new from Mazda with the sensor in it and used for about 6 months before I installed the custom setup. I will take some pics comparing both to show you they are identical.
They are all the same now.
I thought the question was if they had ever been revised.
They could look identical, but use different materials for the float or tank itself.
As far as Mazsurfer's post, he's not the only one who has said that.
If I'm not mistaken, RIWWP has stated the temp gauge is not sufficient, and overheating is already occurring when it starts moving.
I have often said it's difficult to sift through all the opinions on this forum.
How does one know who to believe?
bmfrotary's?
He claims to be a world class auto tech.
I am basing a large part of my opinion on my experiences.
Hoses burst, radiators get punctured.
If I develop a leak with a functional coolant level light, I am confident I would notice it before I notice the temp gauge creeping up, especially if I was in rush hour traffic on the highway.
I'm also confident that if I started losing coolant, the light would come on before the engine started overheating.
I'm not trying to get in a whizzing match with anyone, I'm trying to offer good advice to new members, and I will say that fixing the problem is better than trying to cover it up.
No one will ever convince me otherwise.
Overheating a rotary is much more serious than a piston engine.
A head job is a lot cheaper than a rotary rebuild.
That reservoir was never revised. As I said, a part number change doesn't mean much. If it was revised then the S2 guys would likely not be having the same issues and they are on the higher mileage cars and they were sold in far less numbers. But my opinion is based on removing several of them and examining them not off of what I read here.
I can only go by what I have worked on and dealt with personally on RX-8's in a very harsh rotary environment over the past 10 years. A lot of people have opinions but a lot of those opinions are not based off of experience they are based off of parroted information that they learned here, so you have a lot of people saying a lot of the same things. Some is true, some is not, and a lot of it is unproven and largely uneducated opinion. This is why you see new coils, new plugs, new cat, new fuel pump, or new starter suggested as a fix for every RX-8 engine issue posted up. It's always a guess fest based on what they read in every other thread. That is not everyone, but mostly.
As I said, a lot of people have overheated many times and not blown engines and overheating is overheating, piston or rotary overheating is bad. But how long you overheated is what is important. And if you blow a radiator hose or break a belt at 9000RPM mid corner like I did many years ago when I was stock and overheated instantly (temp gauge pegged, engine was fine after), you are going to know and it isn't going to be the light that saves you. Leaks develop slowly or instantly from my experience.
But if you need a light then I guess that is cool. But I still check my oil level, tire pressure, and coolant level regularly, I don't wait for a light. It's called and idiot light for a reason.
And this is just my opinion, and we all have to decide what opinions to take seriously and what opinions to dismiss immediately. I have a handful of people I take advice from, that is it. And even then I don't always take their advice,
I, too, have monitored coolant temps vigorously, and right until I met up with other RX-8 owners, I've always believed that the coolant temp needle moving = new engine. I've seen a few RX-8s overheat. Some have even hit the max of the stock temp gauge. But they still drive fine! I know of a few guys in my area that drive DAILY with coolant temps in the 224-228F range, and they're fine! Here I am, freaking out when my cars coolant temp gets over 215F It all started from the new owners thread, where RIWWP said that anything above 220F is bad for our engines. Not just him, a lot of others said that! I was so paranoid, I even started a thread about how inadequate the stock cooling system is to keep the car below 220F in hot weather. But then 9krpm chimed in and said the whole 220F story was from his builder and that it's not entirely true.
So, with that said, and seeing plenty of people overheating and driving fine, even after hitting the max of the scale, AND some folks driving daily in the 226F range, I guess it's not a dummy gauge after all It does what it's intended to do, and that is alert drivers when the engine is getting too hot.
I'm still not 100% convinced. But since there are so many survivors, I'll have to buy it
And 9k, so true about the plugs coils, wires and cat. Too many people post that on this club. We need to understand that it's not ALWAYS plugs coils and wires. Well said!
I, too, have monitored coolant temps vigorously, and right until I met up with other RX-8 owners, I've always believed that the coolant temp needle moving = new engine. I've seen a few RX-8s overheat. Some have even hit the max of the stock temp gauge. But they still drive fine! I know of a few guys in my area that drive DAILY with coolant temps in the 224-228F range, and they're fine! Here I am, freaking out when my cars coolant temp gets over 215F It all started from the new owners thread, where RIWWP said that anything above 220F is bad for our engines. Not just him, a lot of others said that! I was so paranoid, I even started a thread about how inadequate the stock cooling system is to keep the car below 220F in hot weather. But then 9krpm chimed in and said the whole 220F story was from his builder and that it's not entirely true.
So, with that said, and seeing plenty of people overheating and driving fine, even after hitting the max of the scale, AND some folks driving daily in the 226F range, I guess it's not a dummy gauge after all It does what it's intended to do, and that is alert drivers when the engine is getting too hot.
I'm still not 100% convinced. But since there are so many survivors, I'll have to buy it
And 9k, so true about the plugs coils, wires and cat. Too many people post that on this club. We need to understand that it's not ALWAYS plugs coils and wires. Well said!
Rob @ Pineapple Racing built my last engine and what he told me about all 13B's was that SUSTAINED temps above 220F will cause coolant seal failure. He said he builds a lot of 13B powered dune buggies for a race series and he said that is the break point for the stock coolant seals. But the key is that he says it is sustained temps, not the occasional trip to north of 220F.
My engine has Pineapple Racing heavy duty coolant seals and although it doesn't mean much since I run Evans waterless coolant, I have gone above 230F many times on this engine but even when pressing it under boost I never get to the point where the factory coolant temp gauge moves.
But like I said, if you read thru the competition section, you will see that the race guys go way beyond that fairly often and that is even with significant cooling mods.
Rob @ Pineapple Racing built my last engine and what he told me about all 13B's was that sustained temps above 220F will cause coolant seal failure. He said he builds a lot of 13B powered dune buggies for a race series and he said that is the break point for the stock coolant seals. But the key is that he says it is sustained temps, not the occasional trip to north of 220F.
My engine has Pineapple Racing heavy duty coolant seals and although it doesn't mean much since I run Evans waterless coolant, I have gone above 230F many times on this engine but even when pressing it under boost I never get to the point where the factory coolant temp gauge moves.
But like I said, if you read thru the competition section, you will see that the race guys go way beyond that fairly often and that is even with significant cooling mods.
Yep that's exactly what you said in my thread Rob from pineapple racing. A guy over here is ALWAYS in the 226F range, and his car is still fine. I guess we'll find out of his car gets screwed.
We need to spread the word that it's ok to go over 220F, and that the temp needle moving doesn't always mean blown coolant seal. Too many people (including me) think that 220F is dangerous.
OK. I will try to state my point as clearly as I can.
Let's say the overheating problem is exaggerated.
Set that aside.
I am saying it isn't right to advise new members to unplug their coolant warning light instead of fixing it.
Why?
My rationale is that a new member listens to that advice and disconnects the warning light.
Said new member develops a leak while driving and loses coolant.
I say that as the level drops, the warning light would come on before overheating even starts.
Does anyone know absolutely that it wouldn't?
I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and am not willing to risk my engine by trying it.
If anyone wants to prove me wrong, I say the next time you change your coolant, leave the engine running while it's draining and see which occurs first.
I believe that many of us, myself included, and especially newer owners, do not watch the temperature gauge constantly except for extremely hot days, and when stuck in traffic.
I believe that if coolant leaks out with a defeated warning light and the engine begins to overheat, the driver may not notice until the overheating becomes obvious by steam coming out from under the hood, or some other more serious symptom manifests itself.
Would anyone disagree that a rotary engine overheating to this degree would sustain serious damage?
I firmly believe that the warning light
is much more noticeable while driving than seeing the temperature gauge needle move.
For this reasoning alone, I say it is irresponsible to tell new members that it's OK to unplug the coolant level warning light.
I would hate to be the one who told a new member that, and have him be the one out of 1000 that would have to get their engine rebuilt for thousands of dollars, instead of spending $125 to fix it correctly.
I can't explain it any simpler, and no matter what anyone says, I will never agree that it is acceptable to disable a warning light, especially to a new owner.
You are assuming all new members are idiots and in addition, a lot of information given to new members is questionable so it's up to them to educate themselves. Just because they buy an RX-8 doesn't mean they are vehicle ignorant. It's up to them to determine what they think is risky or not. IIRC the FD had a buzzer as well as a low coolant light. Maybe people should add a buzzer too.
As for the tanks themselves, well in this bulletin it states the design of the float was modified. The S1 tank and the S2 tank I have here look identical so I will dig into them and see if I can tell exactly if anything was changed. But again the S2 guys have the same issue so it doesn't appear the design change made a difference.
9k, it does seem like most of them are, or at the very least uninformed.
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
[...]As for the tanks themselves, well in this bulletin it states the design of the float was modified. The S1 tank and the S2 tank I have here look identical so I will dig into them and see if I can tell exactly if anything was changed. But again the S2 guys have the same issue so it doesn't appear the design change made a difference.
They changed the design so that the tank and sensor are separable. If your float/tank went bad in the early models, you had to replace the sensor as well. In the later version you can remove the sensor from the tank with a screw driver and pop it in the bottom of the new tank.
You are assuming all new members are idiots and in addition, a lot of information given to new members is questionable so it's up to them to educate themselves. Just because they buy an RX-8 doesn't mean they are vehicle ignorant. It's up to them to determine what they think is risky or not. IIRC the FD had a buzzer as well as a low coolant light. Maybe people should add a buzzer too.
As for the tanks themselves, well in this bulletin it states the design of the float was modified. The S1 tank and the S2 tank I have here look identical so I will dig into them and see if I can tell exactly if anything was changed. But again the S2 guys have the same issue so it doesn't appear the design change made a difference.
9k, it does seem like most of them are, or at the very least uninformed.
They changed the design so that the tank and sensor are separable. If your float/tank went bad in the early models, you had to replace the sensor as well. In the later version you can remove the sensor from the tank with a screw driver and pop it in the bottom of the new tank.
I mean I guess that would suck if the sensor went bad, but it's usually the float in the tank that degrades over time. Replacing only the tank on my 08 solved my coolant light issue and I popped the old sensor out of the first tank and put it in the new one. Seemed pretty simple, although looked really fragile, just some wires and a glass tube looking thing.
OK. I will try to state my point as clearly as I can.
Let's say the overheating problem is exaggerated.
Set that aside.
I am saying it isn't right to advise new members to unplug their coolant warning light instead of fixing it.
Why?
My rationale is that a new member listens to that advice and disconnects the warning light.
Said new member develops a leak while driving and loses coolant.
I say that as the level drops, the warning light would come on before overheating even starts.
Does anyone know absolutely that it wouldn't?
I haven't seen any proof to the contrary, and am not willing to risk my engine by trying it.
If anyone wants to prove me wrong, I say the next time you change your coolant, leave the engine running while it's draining and see which occurs first.
I believe that many of us, myself included, and especially newer owners, do not watch the temperature gauge constantly except for extremely hot days, and when stuck in traffic.
I believe that if coolant leaks out with a defeated warning light and the engine begins to overheat, the driver may not notice until the overheating becomes obvious by steam coming out from under the hood, or some other more serious symptom manifests itself.
Would anyone disagree that a rotary engine overheating to this degree would sustain serious damage?
I firmly believe that the warning light
is much more noticeable while driving than seeing the temperature gauge needle move.
For this reasoning alone, I say it is irresponsible to tell new members that it's OK to unplug the coolant level warning light.
I would hate to be the one who told a new member that, and have him be the one out of 1000 that would have to get their engine rebuilt for thousands of dollars, instead of spending $125 to fix it correctly.
I can't explain it any simpler, and no matter what anyone says, I will never agree that it is acceptable to disable a warning light, especially to a new owner.
I agree 100%.
I've always hated idiot lights, but that has nothing to do with this conversation. Idiot lights are called that because irresponsible drivers neglected to pay attention to their gauges. So auto manufacturers started to replace gauges with red lights that come on once preset parameters were crossed. I would love to have functional temp, oil pressure and ammeter gauges in my car. I'm an involved driver and I keep an eye on my gauges if my car has them.
That said, an idiot light (coupled with a real, working gauge) makes perfect sense for water temperature. Even if I glance at my functional temp gauge regularly, I might not notice the rise in temperature from a sudden loss of coolant (let's say a flying rock compromises your cooling system) for a few minutes or more. The idiot light alerts me right away, so that I can pull over and investigate.
So yes, if your RX-8 coolant light isn't working, get it fixed.
I said it is irresponsible to approve unplugging the coolant level warning light to new members.
0_o
At least 3 people (including you) basically said it's no big deal if you watch your *temperature gauge* (edit) which obviously it seems, is assumed that EVERYONE does religiously.
I and LH seem to be the voice in the wilderness on this.
I've always hated idiot lights, but that has nothing to do with this conversation. Idiot lights are called that because irresponsible drivers neglected to pay attention to their gauges. So auto manufacturers started to replace gauges with red lights that come on once preset parameters were crossed. I would love to have functional temp, oil pressure and ammeter gauges in my car. I'm an involved driver and i keep an eye on my gauges if my car has them.
That said, an idiot light (coupled with a real, working gauge) makes perfect sense for water temperature. Even if i glance at my functional temp gauge regularly, i might not notice the rise in temperature from a sudden loss of coolant (let's say a flying rock compromises your cooling system) for a few minutes or more. The idiot light alerts me right away, so that i can pull over and investigate.
So yes, if your rx-8 coolant light isn't working, get it fixed.
I said it is irresponsible to approve unplugging the coolant level warning light to new members.
0_o
At least 3 people (including you) basically said it's no big deal if you watch your coolant light, which obviously it seems, is assumed that EVERYONE does religiously.
I and LH seem to be the voice in the wilderness on this.
Oh. Well that is just your opinion. One could argue that recommending the installation of a catless midpipe is even more irresponsible but that is recommended to new owners all the time.
If people drive around without paying attention to their coolant gauges then I don't what to tell you, they are idiots and that is why they need idiot lights. You don't rely on the low oil level light to come on to tell you that you need oil do you?
I'm with Cajun on this. End of the day, while people are responsible for their own things, and it's their fault if it goes wrong, we (the more experience folke whom people trust when they ask questions) have to hold ourselves to a higher standard.
There are legitimate reasons why catless midpipes are recommended to noobies, and they have everything to do with saving those noobies from dead engines. Same for idiot lights.
Follow advice at your own peril, sure, but to me, the advice can't be careless, we're not helping anybody like that.
Well we can agree to disagree. If we are being responsible here and holding ourselves to a higher standard, then really there is no legitimate reason to recommend a catless midpipe over a catted one. And that is just one example of common recommendations to new owners that are really not responsible. We can't have it both ways.
You don't rely on the low oil level light to come on to tell you that you need oil do you?
No, but unlike with my cooling system, no rock will ever bounce up and compromise my oil system while driving. I will never experience a sudden loss of oil on the road. Same can't be said for coolant. If it were impossible to suddenly loose coolant while driving, I wouldn't need/want a coolant warning light. Unfortunately, it is possible, and has happened to me.
Odd that you seem incapable of seeing the distinction. Oh well, so be it.
11-30-2015, 05:39 PM
It does what it's intended to do, and that is alert drivers when the engine is getting too hot. 
