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Old 07-12-2006, 08:40 AM   #1
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The myth of the DSC OFF switch

In many posts I came across that to de-activate dynamic stability control and traction control you have to press and hold the DSC switch for about 7 seconds. Then the DSC OFF light illuminates along with the car with the curvy lines as well.

All that this procedure does is tells the system of a possible problem with the switch (since the switch was designed to be a momentary switch) thus turing both the DSC and TCS systems off.

In reality, as the owner manual explains, by pressing the DSC OFF switch (without holding it) will turn off DSC/TCS and DSC OFF light will illuminate.
The only time the car with the curvy lines illuminates (flashing) is 1) when the system is being activated (DSC/TCS operating when needed), 2) flashing when you turn the key to on position or 3) solid on when there is a malfunction.

The function that stays on regardless of DSC/TCS is brake LSD.

Please, any feedback would be appresiated.

PS> NOTE that when you press the DSC OFF switch, the DSC OFF indicator illuminates.. Then, you can drive to the limits and the car with the curvy lines indicator will never illuminate indicating the the DSC/TCS system is OFF.

Owner's manual states:

This indicator light stays on for a few
seconds when the ignition switch is turned
to the ON position.
It also comes on when the DSC OFF
switch is pressed and TCS/DSC is
switched off.
If the light stays on when the TCS/DSC is
not switched off, take your vehicle to an
Authorized Mazda Dealer. The dynamic
stability control may have a malfunction.

It also says:

If the DSC OFF switch is pressed
and held for a second or more, the
TCS/DSC system may become
inoperative due to the system
detecting switch trouble. If the TCS/
DSC system becomes inoperative,
the TCS/DSC and the DSC OFF
indicator lights illuminate
simultaneously. In this case, turn off
the engine and restart it to restore the
TCS/DSC.
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Old 07-12-2006, 08:54 AM   #2
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Maybe it’s just me but what is the point of this thread? DSC / TC cannot be permanently disabled

You just restated what we already know.
Push DSC button once = > DSC off till you cycle the ignition on/off again.
Hold DSC button 7+ seconds => DSC AND TC is off until the next ignition on/off cycle.

If your claiming that the TC is in fact on and the curvy lines light is on because it thinks there is a problem with the switch I invite you to do a 5,000 RPM clutch drop with the TC ‘off’ and with the DSC/TC on.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:00 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expo1
Maybe it’s just me but what is the point of this thread? DSC / TC cannot be permanently disabled

You just restated what we already know.
Push DSC button once = > DSC off till you cycle the ignition on/off again.
Hold DSC button 7+ seconds => DSC AND TC is off until the next ignition on/off cycle.

If your claiming that the TC is in fact on and the curvy lines light is on because it thinks there is a problem with the switch I invite you to do a 5,000 RPM clutch drop with the TC ‘off’ and with the DSC/TC on.
No. That is not what I stated.

Push DSC button once -> DSC and TC off until you push the button again or until the next ignition cycle.
Hold DSC button 7+ seconds -> It does the same thing as pushing DSC button once but in this case the DSC and TC is turned off not by a button push request, but by a fault code interpreting a faulty switch. Therefore, the TC light illuminates solid to indicate a malfunction.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puch96
Hold DSC button 7+ seconds -> It does the same thing as pushing DSC button once but in this case the DSC and TC is turned off not by a button push request, but by a fault code interpreting a faulty switch. Therefore, the TC light illuminates solid to indicate a malfunction.
You aren't telling us anything we don't know. Because of the 7-second hold, the 'computer' thinks there is a problem with the switch and shuts off both DSC and TCS.
Both are off until the car is re-started.

Yes. We know that.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:46 AM   #5
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Expo....

You are probably right, but one of your sentences is not - "Push DSC button once = > DSC off till you cycle the ignition on/off again."

If you tap once the light comes on, tap again = back on, no need to cycle ignition.


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Old 07-12-2006, 09:49 AM   #6
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Here's why you hold the button... Page 5-24 in the '04 Manual, Right column...

Quote:
Leaving the TCS/DSC on will provide the best stability. When the TCS/DSC is off, the TCS/DSC does not activate but the brake LSD function remains.
When you just press the button once, the brake LSD function (brakes still activate to steady the car somewhat) STILL HAPPENS. So technically, the TCS/DSC is off. Technically.

When you press and hold the button until you see the TCS/DSC light illuminate (car with squiggly lines) it shuts off the brake LSD so there's no intrusion at all in sprited driving.

Hopefully, that clears up your confusion.

--kC
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Last edited by Imp; 07-12-2006 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 07-12-2006, 09:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp
Here's why you hold the button... Page 5-24 in the '04 Manual, Right column...



When you just press the button once, the brake LSD function (brakes still activate to steady the car somewhat) STILL HAPPENS. So technically, the TCS/DSC is off. Technically.

When you press and hold the button until you see the TCS/DSC light illuminate (car with squiggly lines) it shuts off the brake LSD so there's no intrusion at all in sprited driving.

Hopefully, that clears up your confusion.

--kC
How can you conclude that by pressing and holding the button it shuts off the brake LSD system?
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:04 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puch96
How can you conclude that by pressing and holding the button it shuts off the brake LSD system?
1) Real world driving in a competition environment with the button in any of the three positions. a) ON, b) Off with just DSC Light Illuminated and c) off with both TCS/DSC Lights illuminated. Drastic differences between the three.

2) With just the button pushed once, there is still intrusion from the system as it applies brakes (at a lesser amount) according to the manual. Notice it doesn't say the "system" is disabled, just 2 functions of the system. (TCS/DSC). I have experienced the brake LSD function with only the DSC OFF indicator illuminated.

From the manual:
Quote:
It also comes on when the DSC OFF switch is pressed and TCS/DSC is switched off.
Notice the distinct lack of the use of the word "system" in that phrase.

3) The manual even goes on to state that it deactivates the entire "system" when you push and hold the button for more than 7 seconds.

Quote:
If the TCS/DSC system becomes inoperative, the TCS/DSC and the DSC OFF indicator lights illuminate simultaneously.
Use of the term "System" includes the 3rd function of the TCS/DSC ... brake LSD.

Hope that helps.

--kC

Last edited by Imp; 07-12-2006 at 10:07 AM.
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:07 AM   #9
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Thanks... I'll look closer at the manual... I'm not sure if my 05 owners manual might be a little different...
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:28 AM   #10
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what it says from your own post

If the DSC OFF switch is pressed
and held for a second or more, the
TCS/DSC system may become
inoperative due to the system
detecting switch trouble.

if you tap the button the DSC is turned off sort of. its more like asleep. it can still intervene if it feels like it. and traction control is still active. it can be turned back on by tapping the button a second time.

if you hold it for 7-8 seconds and the dash indicator becomes illuminated then it is telling you the whole system, Traction control and Dynamic Stability Control, is inoperative and will stay that way until the next ignition cycle.

If the dash indicator becomes illuminated when you have not held the button its telling you the system has become inoperative. one of the reasons this could happen is a short in that button giving a constant signal
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:00 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom44
what it says from your own post

If the DSC OFF switch is pressed
and held for a second or more, the
TCS/DSC system may become
inoperative due to the system
detecting switch trouble.

if you tap the button the DSC is turned off sort of. its more like asleep. it can still intervene if it feels like it. and traction control is still active. it can be turned back on by tapping the button a second time.
How can you tell that the traction control is still active. The manual states that DSC and TCS will turn off when you push the button.

Also, when you push the button to turn the system off, the system should not intervene if it feels like it because it is off.
Like I stated before... no matter which way you turn the system off (pushing the button or holding the button), both DSC and TCS will turn off. It is just a matter of how the system interprets the request. (button press vs. switch fault)
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:11 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puch96
How can you tell that the traction control is still active. The manual states that DSC and TCS will turn off when you push the button.

Also, when you push the button to turn the system off, the system should not intervene if it feels like it because it is off.
Like I stated before... no matter which way you turn the system off (pushing the button or holding the button), both DSC and TCS will turn off. It is just a matter of how the system interprets the request. (button press vs. switch fault)
You go ahead and keep believing that. I explained it very thoroughly above. the brake-lsd is a function of traction control, one element of it.

In order to totally disable all aspects of traction control, you have to push, and hold, the DSC button. Just turning off DSC so where only one light is illuminated, does not totally disable the SYSTEM.

I would believe that its worded the way it is in the manual is because you have people that would say "The manual said I can do this!" They want to discourage the total disabling of the TCS system. This is why it's till partially active with the button press.. it keeps the sue happy at bay. If you totally disable the whole system, it's "do so at your own risk, we told you not to, and we told you what would happen".

Go into your DSC/TCS enabled vehicle. Press the button once. Turn the wheel a little bit, rev to around 6k rpm, drop the clutch.... what happens? Yeah.

Now, do it again, but this time, hold the button down until the Car/squiggly lines appears then do the above.

You will notice two different outcomes. Better yet... go park on some beach sand and then try to get out.

--kC

Last edited by Imp; 07-12-2006 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp
You go ahead and keep believing that. I explained it very thoroughly above. the brake-lsd is a function of traction control, one element of it.

In order to totally disable all aspects of traction control, you have to push, and hold, the DSC button. Just turning off DSC so where only one light is illuminated, does not totally disable the SYSTEM.

I would believe that its worded the way it is in the manual is because you have people that would say "The manual said I can do this!" They want to discourage the total disabling of the TCS system. This is why it's till partially active with the button press.. it keeps the sue happy at bay. If you totally disable the whole system, it's "do so at your own risk, we told you not to, and we told you what would happen".

Go into your DSC/TCS enabled vehicle. Press the button once. Turn the wheel a little bit, rev to around 6k rpm, drop the clutch.... what happens? Yeah.

Now, do it again, but this time, hold the button down until the Car/squiggly lines appears then do the above.

You will notice two different outcomes. Better yet... go park on some beach sand and then try to get out.

--kC
You probably mean EBD (Electronic Brake-force Distribution which adjusts the braking force to each wheel independently). This is not linked to traction control.. It's part of ABS. LSD is limitid slip differential which have nothing to do with the breaking system nor traction control) It's just the mechanics and sensors of the differential.

Well... in any event... I think this thread should have never been started and it will just keep going in circles without getting anywhere.

Please note that I'm not trying to argue here.... I'm just trying to clarify certain things that are not stated in the owners manual and that people "think" is going on but not really showing me any prove other than (personal experience).

I'll just keep trying all different scenarious of DSC/TCS and see what best suit my needs....
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:37 AM   #14
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its going in circles because you wont believe the people with the personal experience.
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Imp
You go ahead and keep believing that. I explained it very thoroughly above. the brake-lsd is a function of traction control, one element of it.

In order to totally disable all aspects of traction control, you have to push, and hold, the DSC button. Just turning off DSC so where only one light is illuminated, does not totally disable the SYSTEM.

I would believe that its worded the way it is in the manual is because you have people that would say "The manual said I can do this!" They want to discourage the total disabling of the TCS system. This is why it's till partially active with the button press.. it keeps the sue happy at bay. If you totally disable the whole system, it's "do so at your own risk, we told you not to, and we told you what would happen".

Go into your DSC/TCS enabled vehicle. Press the button once. Turn the wheel a little bit, rev to around 6k rpm, drop the clutch.... what happens? Yeah.

Now, do it again, but this time, hold the button down until the Car/squiggly lines appears then do the above.

You will notice two different outcomes. Better yet... go park on some beach sand and then try to get out.

--kC

I think you nailed it - this guy wants to believe what he does; he doesn't seem to be teachable.

(shrug).

I have first-hand evidence as to the difference between 'dsc off' and '7-second hold'. I've also seen video evidence, too.
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:46 AM   #16
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maybe there's some confusion about what each system does.

abs: controls deceleration (duh!)
traction control: controls forward acceleration only (think of abs, but in reverse)
dynamic stability control: controls lateral acceleration (yaw)
limited slip differential: distributes and regulates the amount of torque applied to each wheel, though i don't know who this is controlled by the system. anyone?
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:53 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan13b
This isn't accurate.
If you simply press the button once the DSC is definitely still there, there's no question about the fact that it's not totally gone.
Well... this is what the manual says...

I rest my case until proven otherwise...
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Old 07-12-2006, 11:57 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puch96
Well... this is what the manual says...

I rest my case until proven otherwise...
You rest your case? Excellent.

Then...by Preponderance of Evidence, I find in favour of Everybody but YOU in this thread.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:09 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puch96
Well... this is what the manual says...

I rest my case until proven otherwise...
f what the manual says. why cant you just go try what these ppl are telling you is fact? LIke someone stated, they are not going to tell you how to disable something that can come back on mazda or any car company. If you do not belive these ppl, go try it so you can prove them wrong. but i can tell you this , you will not be able to. im not being a ***** to you so please do not take it taht i am. im just saying is, if you have not tried for your self to see if it is accurate. then you have no argument to bring to the table to prove others are wrong.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:14 PM   #20
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well, from my experience (contrary to forum opinion) I did donuts in the snow with the DSC button in the 1 touch off position... no TCS and no DSC even came on -shrug-
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:18 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0tor
well, from my experience (contrary to forum opinion) I did donuts in the snow with the DSC button in the 1 touch off position... no TCS and no DSC even came on -shrug-

With DSC OFF lighted my car will do all kinds of burnouts and donuts. Until a point. At that point (whatever the computer decides) the car starts behaving again.

I REALLY need to find that video I mentioned...
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:19 PM   #22
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"...in the snow" sum's it up.
Now thats a good way to test the DSC... (sigh..)

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Old 07-12-2006, 12:30 PM   #23
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I dont have DSC or RunDMC. I go drift now
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:44 PM   #24
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Let me clear up some misconceptions about the systems you guys are discussing. There is no difference between "brake-assisted LSD" and "traction control".....why? Because traction control is brake assisted LSD. Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) IS TRACTION CONTROL. However, traction control is not DSC. It's like explaining the square and the rectangle. A square is a rectangle......but a rectangle is not a square. DSC encapsulates any computer aide to correct loss of traction/control. The loss of traction is based on inputs from the steering position sensors, wheel speed sensors and yaw sensors (body roll). The system corrects for loss of traction/control with outputs to the braking system and the engine controls.

I have an RX8 and always 'quick depress' the DSC button on dry pavement driving. I am able to lose traction anytime I want which means the DSC is not operating as a complete system. I have not taken the car to the limits of losing contact with the road, so I am not sure if the system will interfere at the point of roll-over detection.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bascho
Let me clear up some misconceptions about the systems you guys are discussing. There is no difference between "brake-assisted LSD" and "traction control".....why? Because traction control is brake assisted LSD. Dynamic Stability Control (DSC) IS TRACTION CONTROL. However, traction control is not DSC. It's like explaining the square and the rectangle. A square is a rectangle......but a rectangle is not a square. DSC encapsulates any computer aide to correct loss of traction/control. The loss of traction is based on inputs from the steering position sensors, wheel speed sensors and yaw sensors (body roll). The system corrects for loss of traction/control with outputs to the braking system and the engine controls.

I have an RX8 and always 'quick depress' the DSC button on dry pavement driving. I am able to lose traction anytime I want which means the DSC is not operating as a complete system. I have not taken the car to the limits of losing contact with the road, so I am not sure if the system will interfere at the point of roll-over detection.
Hey thanks for clearing that up. Makes sence.

Dont want to know on the second part of your post about the roll-over part lol. But someone did roll there car I did not think to ask them if the system tryed to pervent that.
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:54 PM
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