Rotator

This will most likely cause a flame war - but here goes.
I am a Canadian spending my first summer (non white) Christmas in Aus. I have a 2004 Velocity Red 8 that is stock outside of wheels and a sub in my ski passthrough.

Over the last couple weeks I have been visiting family over Christmas in Quensland - Gold Coast (Surfer's) and South Australia (Adelaide).
In all the places I have been there have been some really great driving roads that have been spoiled by what I feel is unnecessary speed enforcement - aka tax grab.
Speed traps are everywhere - especially in South Australia with unattended speed cameras.

Over a two week period I would guess that we covered around 1500km or so - mostly on smaller two lane roads.

I did come across some delimited roads in NSW that were a glimmer of hope for any enthusiast.

What I found for the most part were a driving population so in fear of the reprecussions of speeding, or other traffic violations, that they travel at or below the posted limits. They accelerate so slow for fear of making a tire squeel it is just damn frustrating. Makes you wonder why anyone would have the Holden 6L V8 when it is pretty much useless.

Back in Canada - where the limits are 100kph for the divided highways, and 80kph for the 2 lane undivided highways it is not uncommon to travel at 125, and 100 respectively without fear of tax collection.

It must be very frustrating as an enthusiast to know that your local 2 lane blacktop could have a radar trap around any bend - especially when they have the limit set for 5kph above posted.

Being here just a short time has exposed me to a huge "Speed Kills" campaign by the media.

Speed doesn't kill - crashing into trees kills. Inexperience and lack of car control kills. Speed doesn't kill - this has been proven with numerous studies on the topic.
Judging by the numerous road side memorials - I'd say Australia drivers have a competency or drink driving (drive through bottle shops that sell singles are AWESOME) issues.
With some good local cheap V8 muscle and relatively cheap japanese imports like the skyline, FD's, Supras, etc. around it has to be frustrating.

My city - Toronto, did roll out speed cameras only to be taken out by the courts, and the next provincial government due to public pressure.

I hope that as a group you can get together to fight speed cameras that are in places for revenue reasons rather than safety reasons (School Zones, Residential Areas, Etc.).

I also understand there are some pretty strict rules on modifications as well.

Don't be a sheep - fight the man, otherwise the only responsible fun you will have is on a track.

In closing - a highway is built to allow vehicles to travel from point A to point B as fast and as safe as possible. 110kph is not fast for modern cars. In the UK people drive at a speed they feel most comfortable with and that sits around 140-160kph.

It is just so sad that with so many great roads to drive - the only way to enjoy them is to have a spotter drive ahead to clear the way.
I have driven all over Canada, USA, and most of Europe - and would rank some of the roads I travelled on during my visit in AUS as some of the best anywhere.
Not so good at 40kph though.

Saw one black RX8 while in Surfer's that had the plates HOLDON - nice lines through the traffic circles.

Been typing too long - my BEvERage is getting warm.

I welcome all responses. (Ignore the spelling errors - too lazy to run the message through a checker)

auzoom

Rotator, Not sure if you got the Victoria but we have the worst of all states with a zero tolerance to speed. The only "tolerance" is that in the radar/camera itself, generally speaking +/-3kmh.

I am with you in most respects however I feel that enforcement should be based on appropriatness of the drivers actions. In dry weather, a squirt up to 125kmh on a 100kmh road is in my eyes fine to overtake and get a safe distance past a car that is doing 98kmh, however if its a torrential downpour this is insane and dangerous to not only yourself but everyone else around.

Problem is that in this day and age where everyone is a budding lawyer, its to costly to implement a judgement based system.

Cheers

Andrew

takahashi

Generally, we think that speeding is not advised.

We, as enthusiasts of our lovely 8, will have to make sure and aware of public safety and the presence of other driver whose sole aim is to get to A to B. To fit in, we just have to obey the law, and make sure our journey is as "safe" as the politicians suggest it to be. Remember, they don't drive and probably have more demerit points than most of us.

If you want to unleash your speedy genes, go to a track day and driver training course. And join us in the lovely heavy policed state of Victoria. It is legal, as fun and certainly safer on the public road. Remember the other people, you may not hit a tree, but you will hit them.

Let's think of the 20 people who will get kill this Xmas season.

Be safe guys.

See you in all the speedy track days of OzRenesis.

Taka

ILIV48

I use to be one of those who would go for a blast up into the mountains with a group of old friends every Saturday night. Nearly every week one of the younger more foolish guys would loose control and go off the road hitting something more often than not. I found the problem was out on the public roads you just never know what is around the next corner (a car thats run wide, fallen tree, dead animal, damp patch etc).

Since beginning doing track days my attitude has changed. I know drive a fair bit slower than I used to on the roads and when I feel the need to really enjoy my car I book myself into a track/driver training day. I find this far more enjoyable and safe and it also allows me to really play with my car with speeds that would just be stupid out on the public roads.

I still believe that most the camera's are there to make money and if they were serious about accidents then there would truly be a much bigger emphasis on driver training but that would cost too much $$$ and with camera's they can claim they are doing something while still making money out of it!

yellowrx8inoz

^^ what he said

I'm convinced that the treating of the symptoms, not the cause, is the endemic problem here.

Every time I've done any road safety research (it's part of my job) I've found that the solutions the authorities want most are the 'end-of-pipe' things like barriers, signs, cameras, speed limits etc. for the lowest common denominator (usually characterised by the drunk, untrained, young, male motorist in a too-powerful car with bald tyres and shot suspension).

In Victoria at least, very little is ever done to change driver training, nor introduce annual roadworthy and emissions testing of cars, which is a crime by omission on the part of the Government. These are unpopular things, of course, and would particularly disadvantage country areas; coincidentally where both the worst crashes happen and where many marginal seats exist that can sway the balance of power!

Here endeth the lesson... hope it's not too political for the forum...

flomulgator

I'm not an Aussie but got bored and read this. Makes me feel that things aren't that bad in the USA after all. I hear urbanized parts of England have the same problem, w/ even false cameras and hidden ones.

If I may add....speed RARELY kills anyone. It usually goes like this: They were speeding AND (drunk, undertrained, bald tires, too fast for adverse conditions, poor suspension, etc. etc. etc. etc.). Speed tickets are the easiest money makers in the world, even if a person has to hand you the ticket rather than a machine. Its just so easy to convince the public that it is for "their safety"

Although it sounds different with "camera fear" ask yourself this: What other law that governs society is broken by 90%+ of its citizens yet still enforced strongly? Does a law actually make sense then when everyone's a criminal? Worst of all, studies have found that people actually drive slower and more safely when they are not influenced by an expected limit.

And for anyone who still believes that "Speed Kills", I dare you to go look up Germany or Italy's accident/fatality rate and compare it against your own, or my country's.

Sorry, I get all fired up over this topic. I think we already have a serious problem in America and I don't want it to decend to the hell you guys have to live with. My condolences to your neutered 8's.

Gomez

Welcome to Sunny (speed **** government run) Australia, Mr Canuk.

Did that wiring harness finally solve your DTC problems??

Rotator

Just an observation - but I notice tons of roadside memorials on straight sections of 2 lane blacktop. What is the reason for that? Usually impatient people stuck behind someone driving excessively slow for the conditions.
So in this sense - slow drivers kill. Chew on that for a while.
I would be curious to find where your country ranks in fatalities/100k people since the cameras have come in place - if it has improved the rankings.
I think the real problem with most collisions is the lack of proper driver training and awareness of the level of concentration that the task requires.

Gr8M8

Your reasoning doesn't make sense - if we have a problem with driving competency or alcohol, getting rid of the speed cameras isn't going to help.

Rotor Convert

Hey Rotator,

Welcome to Oz. I'm in Adelaide where we have cameras out in the open, stealth cameras and mobile ones.....and yes we have to be careful.

Just the other day two guys were killed not far from my home in a good old ozzie V8.....going too fast...no seatbelts and now no lives. They made an error in driving and the car did the rest and the Norfolk Island pine they hit tells the tale.

My husband has a sticker in his shed it reads.....

BAN LOW PERFORMANCE DRIVERS
NOT HIGH PERFORMANCE CARS

I have to agree with this. It's not speed that kills it's the boob behind the wheel who can't control a car. NT is still fatality free......no limit...does this equal no deaths?

The issue starts with how our kids are taught to drive. Then it just gets worse till they kill themselves.

We end up going quick on a circuit like the others......or on the backroads to Melbourne...if you do go there....go via Naracoorte - Hamilton road.....it's a lovely drive.....not well known....not well travelled but some lovely 8 lovin' roads out that way....
Enjoy your visit.

Gomez

Hey, most right thinking persons agree with you. Speed doesn't kill. Untrained, inexperienced drivers kill. I'd much prefer every Australian state government make advanced driver training a pre-requisite to the issue of a drivers licence.

If they were fair dinkum about reducing the road toll, that's what they'd do. They aren't though, it's all about consolidated revenue.

BTW, I hate those stupid white crosses at roadside crash sites. Why are they there?? They're there because some poor bastard didn't do any advanced driver training, that's why they're there. They are a reminder that someone didn't have the skills to avoid crashing their car. They are there because some fool decided to drive whilst tired. They are there because some dick swerved to avoid a rabbit instead of running over it. They are there because some poor bastard became a victim of someone else who did one of the above. They are there because some nineteen year old chick didn't know the difference between a tyre pressure gauge and a dipstick.

Have a happy festive season. Drive safe....kill rabbits.

auzoom

No but keeping them isnt helping, only raising revenue. And that revenue is not being used to help the problem either.

I can see the Add campaigns now

Rotor Convert

I have to agree with you 100% Gomez.

What's the log book test all about? Pass a test and sit with an instructor and be good...don;t learn about understeer or oversteer or aquaplaning and then out you go. We have seen more stupid inconsiderate and down right dangerous driving in the last few days to last us a life time...makes me wish I had a Volvo just to get through the festive season!!!

Z88M

Go where the performance motorbikes go - they always find the best public roads to drive on where ever you live.

Rotor Convert

Yes in Adelaide that would be the Gorge Road, lots of them die there too.

Gomez

....in Melbourne, the Black Spur.....ditto.

timbervolt

I don't disagree with anything said here.

Driver attitude is the most important thing. It's like guns - guns don't kill people, people kill people.

I lived and drove in the UK for 3 years and absolutely loved it there. The English are very courteous and this is shown in their driving habits too. In the city, with narrow two lane roads, people will let you into the traffic from either direction because the traffic is generally heavy and everyone understands this. The drivers are taught that you should always be in the left-most lane unless overtaking. In Vic, this only applies if you are on a >80kph road. The English obeys their law, us Victorians generally don't - ie. 3 cars on a 3 laned freeway doin' the "Freeway Wall". They also have a rule of not overtaking on the left. This could only work if they actually stick to the keep left rule, which they do. There's no way Victoria can do this because we generally don't keep left. Maybe this is why we can overtake from both sides. However, it seems changing lanes is difficult for some. I was tailgated on the left lane through an 80kph work zone on the freeway. It was at night and the freeway was pretty much empty. I decided to see what the guy would do if I stayed at 80 when the limit was raised to 100kph again. He continued to tail me for 5km. He even flashed his headlights at me! The other 2 lanes were clear of traffic at this time. WFT? I continued at 80 until my exit and of course he picked up his speed after.

Another principle that the English adhere to is the "keep the traffic moving" principle. On freeways, they are taught to change lanes when approaching an on-ramp so that the drivers joining can get on. It's beautiful to watch this happen. I see many who don't really help joiners get on by changing their speed. (I also see joiners who don't match their speed with the freeway either)

And what is with this me me me attitude. Why is it there are drivers who feel compelled to cut me off just to be able to get to the traffic lights that 5 seconds before me. This reduces my stopping distance and I have to ask more of my brakes.

I don't profess to be the best driver in the world. I make mistakes from time to time, but what is it about some drivers who I do this in front of, feel the need to express their superiority complex and overtake me (I'm already doing the speed limit), again to reach the red traffic lights just that few seconds before me.

It seems a lot of people are impatient.

The one thing I don't think is taught enough, besides good driver attitude, is to look for motorcyclists. Being one myself, my awareness of the road is heightened when on my bike. I know I am vulnerable and that if it is not me who asks too much of my bike killing me, it will be others around me who don't "see" me even if I am right in front of them. I know of a driving/riding instructor who teaches his students to look for bikes. The efforts of a few is at least better than none. In an ideal world, all drivers will have been a motorcyclists for a year before driving. Then everyone knows what being a motorcyclist is all about. As you know you are vulnerable, you become acutely aware of your surroundings looking for thing and drivers that can kill you. When you drive a cage, you can still exercise this skill and see a lot more of the road.

Here's a question: If speed kills, how is it that Germany can have an autobahn and not think that a speed unlimited road is unsafe?

Aaah! Nice to let off some steam.

Rotor Convert

in answer to your question there are too many low performance drivers driving high performance cars in oz......

Gomez

There's a good idea, TV......force every driver onto a motorcycle for their first year on the road. Second year in a bloody big truck, just so they can enjoy the experience of having some ***** pull into their braking space at the lights.

Yes....I've held a car, bike and truck licence for over twenty years (shifty old ***** that I am). I've experienced all the road joy others have had to offer .

xxup

I don't know where all the road funding money is going in NSW.. We are in the state now - spending more time in the air than on the crappy roads... More bounce in a NSW road than Tigger.. Bounced all the way down George street on our way to the so called Princess Highway... (We call them a divided road up in QLD - Highways have 100KPH minimum...) Crawled down the Coast to Bateman's Bay.... Took 5 hours!!!!!!!!!!!! There's Volvos everywhere down here... Arrrgggssshhhhh..... Paid $1.33 for Unleaded 95 too... We will be in Victoria tomorrow after we see some really old aeroplanes fly - have you got those fires under control yet!

DMRH

Most Aussie are brainwashed into thinking "speed kills". OMG we are doing 20 over the limit, we are about to die sort of attitude.

Its only when you have travelled the world & driven the roads to see what the other countries are like that gives you the insight into what is really happening here in Oz.

I agree 100% with Rotator. Or almost every other tourist that drives here.

Australian roads are for revenue collection.
Australian drivers (mostly) live in fear of a speed trap around the next bend.
Australian drivers have been "conditioned" over many years to think this way which is why they dont feel its a problem.
Australian drivers now think the problem is actually the other person that wants to drive faster on the open road (******** factor excepted) & not them.

Thats why I will always have an (undetectable) radar detector + Laser detector/jammer set up in my cars.

Those that feel the same way the Gov wants you to feel should get out more & see the rest of the world.

REgards

timbo

Not much more to add to this, other than to say that even our best roads are, unfortunately, badly designed or -- even worse -- badly built. I, too, have lived o/s and came back to feel totally part of a police state. Then I also observed the pretty poor quality of even our toll roads.

As taka & Ilive48 say, there needs to be a way for people to get it out of their system, and to learn proper car handling, which does NOT involve public roads. Unfortunatley, such learning is frowned upon relative to the policing approach, as evidence by the P plate kill rate

Rotor Convert

Yes that's a great idea, also may I add to the list. They should have to tow a horse float with 2 horses in it through traffic. I have had horses injured because of other drivers ignorance to the fine art of travelling horses.....if they fail all these they should be relegated to a push bike for the rest of their days!

Rotator

Gomez - Wiring Harness Fixed my MIL
Rotor Convert - Drove the GORGE road today - nice - (no bike splats seen) all to myself. In a super fast KIA. Craziest users of the road - Cyclists!! You would have to be NUTS to pedal a bike with those ZERO clearance shoulders and blind turns. Saw a RED 8 as well on the B10. Went to the National Motor Museum in Birdwood - some nice cars and bikes there. [Canadian Sarcasm ON] Took some videos while on my cell phone eating a donut and drinking a coffee - I even drove on the right side of the road to see if the bike drivers were awake. [/Canadian Sarcasm OFF]
XXUP - Come to Canada and experience frost heaves. You get a 1-2m dip in the road that tests the bump stops of your car. Really fun @ 160!
Timbervolt - Wasn't it Richard Pryor that said make bullets $1000 each - then people would think twice about shooting someone? Possibly that is the reasoning the speed ***** are using for speeding?

Motorcycle license before car license? There is a great idea.

How about this idea? Remove the steering wheel airbag and replace it with a steel spike that shoots out in the event of an at fault frontal impact. Do you think this will change driving habits?

I think the biggest problem is the lack of respect most people have for the amount of carnage 3500lbs worth of plastic and steel hurdling down an asphalt surface on 4 contact patches the size of the average palm can exert.

A simple excercise is to push a car on a level surface to about walking speed. Then try to stop it quickly. You soon realise the amount of kinetic energy that this amount of mass has.

As for good roads vs bad roads. Really in the eye of the beholder.
The gorge road for instance - trees and rock faces are mere cm's from the road. Is this safe? Sure - unless you decide to go off the road.
Totally unsafe for cyclists or pedestrians. But the signage is quite clear.
Go to France - and there are blind turns and single lane sections that are unmarked.
Travel B roads in the UK and same thing - 70-90kph with 3m hedges on both sides of a road that could be taken for a bicycle path.

The topic really is about speed enforcement and the impact on serious collisions.
I'm all for speed enforcement in the correct context. I just hate the tax grab.
Where does the collected revenue go?? Driver education? Where does the revenue on gas tax go? Better Roads??

Happy motoring.

Gomez

Nah mate, as I said earlier....all the money goes into consolidated revenue. One big pot that the various governments dip into to try and buy our votes come election day.....