What with all the noise about 248 (original) vs. 238 (revised) vs 207 (estimated actual) hp, what do y'all think about the RX-8 in B-Stock? Suddenly it doesn't look as good on paper compared to the S2000. More weight, longer wheelbase, softer springs, less horsepower.

I wonder if the SEB with reconsider placing the RX-8 in B-Stock and move it to another class.

Originally posted by PUR NRG
I wonder if the SEB with reconsider placing the RX-8 in B-Stock and move it to another class. After speaking with a local club member who is on the SEB, I believe that is quite likely.

If it's anything like our local crew, it's not gonna happen.

Instead, we can all run the same numbers and make up classes. Then let the organizers talk about their cars for an hour and the realized that the run group is waiting.

Hope they move it!

There will always be the chance of adjustment, and it will always come too late for those of us who feel disadvantaged, or too soon for the winners. Class changes happen after a season of performance data is in, sprinkled with a liberal dose of bench racing among the powers that be (yet another reason to get involved in SCCA administration).

I started my Miata's autocross career in the '89 season in CSP with just a wheel-tire change, a good alignment, a little added lightness, and about 600 miles on the clock. Already there were some in positions of influence who felt that the poor thing should move to a slower class, and the fact that I never finished lower than second likely damped enthusiasm for a move.

The 8 carries some baggage that may well hinder its chances at nationals glory, but I predict that first season regional results will keep it right where it is for a while.

{{{{

If you look at some of the other threads, you'll find that the guys in the Houston Region SCCA Tim Pryor), in BS, are beating other folks...S2000, Boxster, etc., while running Hoosier 'Track" tires, not autox tires. With this happening now, I don't see SCCA re-classifying the 8.

Hmmm, I was put in AS, I thought BS was where it is supposed to go????????


Just stick it in ES, it's not very fast, and the stock tires are hella slippery (good drift tires)

Originally posted by TybeeRX-8
If you look at some of the other threads, you'll find that the guys in the Houston Region SCCA Tim Pryor), in BS, are beating other folks...S2000, Boxster, etc., while running Hoosier 'Track" tires, not autox tires. With this happening now, I don't see SCCA re-classifying the 8.

I don't think the 8 will be going anywhere but the S2K might... However that's been a rumor for a while now and I don't really know what class it would be a better fit in...

Each class has a car that has the edge over the other for the most part, and it will always be that way. The only way to eliminate that is to have only the same cars compete against one another. It would just be too difficult to have parody for the kind of money it costs to autox and with the amount of people that compete in it. There are already classes that only get 1 or 2 entries at an event even in the more active regions.

Ike

How is autox expensive?

I really don't care bout the class... autox is kinda fun, outside of working.

There's already a lot of regional events showing up all over the US where they are LIKE autox, but you don't have to work, get more runs, and pay about the same.

Sure they are non-sanctioned, and you can't go for points, but still more fun for the same amount of $$$!!!

Originally posted by syntrix
How is autox expensive?

I really don't care bout the class... autox is kinda fun, outside of working.

There's already a lot of regional events showing up all over the US where they are LIKE autox, but you don't have to work, get more runs, and pay about the same.

Sure they are non-sanctioned, and you can't go for points, but still more fun for the same amount of $$$!!!

It's not expensive, which was part of my point as to why they will never have better parody like more heavily sanctioned forms of racing. Keep it cheap and somewhat simple is what autox is all about.

Ike

Another piece of info:

2004 S2000 (now w/ 2.2L engines) are dynoing 15-25 hp more to the wheels than 2L s2000's (-2003)

BUT susp. is a tad softer., lets see if they get reclassed or not.

Originally posted by Sneakyracer
Another piece of info:

2004 S2000 (now w/ 2.2L engines) are dynoing 15-25 hp more to the wheels than 2L s2000's (-2003)

BUT susp. is a tad softer., lets see if they get reclassed or not.

Suspension is a tad softer but most seem to think it handles better.

Some have tried to get the RX-8 into STX since it has 4 doors/seats/seat belts, but SCCA says it is a sports car and BS is where it goes. There has been some discussion about putting the S2000 into BSP (street prepared), but I haven't heard that was done as yet. The new S2000 has the same hp, but more torque and a lower redline. The suspension was tweaked to cure its terminal oversteer that the uninitiated couldn't handle. I'm sure that in proper hands, it will still be a car to beat in whatever class it is assigned.

Unfortunately, the rule makers for SCCA are also COMPETING.

I've heard so many stories of very stupid rules for cars, and people mentioning the ruling body makes the rules so they personally have a better chance of winning.

Anyone else hear stuff like this at autox events?

(noob alert)

I've been following this issue closely since I compete with you guys ('95 M3) and fight the S2000s as well. I personally don't think we have a chance against them except on a regional level (which means nothing :) )

Here is a basic rundown of the competitors in BStock, rankings are my own opinions and observations.

1. Honda S2000 - Rules both tight and wide-open courses. 2650-2700lb in race trim. 240bhp. Excellent front camber curve throughout suspension bump due to double wishbone front suspension. Can fit a 225 Hoosier. Narrow with good visibility.

2. Nissan 350Z - Torquey but portly. 3200-3300lb in race trim. Benefit is that it is available with some seriously wide wheels from the factory (Track package), and can fit some really wide rubber. Strut front suspension has a poor camber curve.

3. BMW Z4 - Torquey and light (under 3000lb in race trim). Disadvantage of not having a limited slip diff. Can be as fast as a 350Z if you install a big front swaybar and light wheels. Poor front camber curve due to strut suspension. No provision for camber adjustment up front.

4. BMW M3 E36 - Poor front camber curve and no adjustment. Torquey and relatively light, only 100lb heavier than a Z4. Benefit of having a factory LSD. Can fit a 245 hoosier on stock wheels. With a big front sway bar, they can be plenty fast, but are still a "has been" when compared to the new iron.

Where does the RX-8 fit? Dunno, haven't seen one run yet, but from what I've heard it does belong in BStock. What does NOT belong is the S2000. It's over 200lb lighter than its closest competitor and has a far superior front suspension design. By the spec sheet, yeah, it's a BS car but it really should be duking it out with the STis and EVOs and C4's in A Stock. I have a hunch it would still win.

I'd be interested to hear any of your thoughts.

Any of you guys DC area local? If so look for the yellow M3 at the SCCA events. I'd love to chat with some of you!

John V
1995 M3 - RD front sway bar, 235/40 V700s, Koni yellows
ex-1987 RX-7 Turbo II - street ported home-rebuilt GTX 13B, Volvo FMIC, Custom T04 HI-FI, etc etc... :(

Ok, move the FD to A stock, move the s2000 to A stock. Lets have the RX dominate again (which it will).

Keep the Rx-8 in B stock, it will suprise ya.

I've said it before I'll say it again... the RX-8 is going to do well in BS, but the S2K will still be king. With equal drivers it's just too well sorted for autox. However, I don't see a better fit for it besides BS. The RX-7 seems to be in the same situation, it's not the best car in SS but move it to AS and it's the best car... I'm not as sure about that last statement though because the 2 FDs that regularly run in my division are awful, and they've been at it for a while, they regularly get beat by 3 or 4 S2Ks sometimes up to 7 or 8 in BS better their time depending on the day and how many S2Ks show up.

Yeah, BS is where it belongs. Rarely does the SCCA class a new car in a class where it will come out and dominate. Instead, they prefer to throw it in over its head a bit and see how it swims.

I think the 8 will swim fine. Maybe not at the head of the class, but not far off.

It'll be fun to watch.

the 2004 S2000 has been placed in A stock, btw.

Really? Do you have a link so I can confirm this? I've seen mention of this in Fasttrack but didn't think it was anything official.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
Really? Do you have a link so I can confirm this? I've seen mention of this in Fasttrack but didn't think it was anything official.

check the S2000 special interest (racing) forum. at www.s2ki.com. There is a thread about the s2000, thats where I read it. I'm rehashing what I read with out any confirmation. They were talking like its a done deal...so I assume they have factual info.

You might want to search on http://www.sccaforums.com or post a few topics about it if nothing shows up.

Originally posted by IkeWRX
Really? Do you have a link so I can confirm this? I've seen mention of this in Fasttrack but didn't think it was anything official. If it's in Fasttrack, it is official.

Of course the day I post this, the latest Sportscar comes and I read that the new S2000 is in AS to "preserve the existing competition" in BS. Uh... what competition? Also, the petition from members that the '00-'03 S2000 be moved to AS was in there, looks like it will happen 1/1/05.

Doubtful that the FD will be moved to AS. The class is too tight as it is right now, and the FD would dominate the current hot car (C4 'vette) just like it did when it came out.

Wow, lots of Wisconsin folks. I autocrossed Milwaukee region SCCA for a few years before I moved. 1996-2000. (waving madly). A local guy just bought an RX-8. Hopefully he will offer some good competition. Looking forward to nationals next year!

I guess the C4 folks would get pissy and be cry babies if the FD moved to AS? I think the S2000 is going to eat the C4 alive.

the C4 should goto B stock, the FD and the C5 should goto A stock. The C5 and FD are a good match and neither are competitive in SS.

So there's going to be a S2k "split" just like the 1.6-liter and 1.8-liter Miatas?

Was the outcry that big from the current S2k owners ("unfair!") to keep the 2004 out or what?

Ah, that's why I love F125... the technology and rules are, get this, STABLE! It's nice to be out of the "class wars" in the stock classes. :)

BTW -- I was in Boston from 97-99. I autocrossed a black Fiero in Milwaukee in 96 (won a lot, even against Bob "BMW" Clark), then a silver Ford Contour in 99 and 2000. (yuck) I finally got the kart last year, and it's the most fun I've ever had on 4 wheels.

I like zerobanger's proposal better than the others. That makes too much sense to be adopted. :D

I raced a Taurus SHO in GS for the '00 season. So I think I have you beat on racing uncompetetive cars! :)

Actually with the S2000 the current outcry is "unfair!" that it's being put in AS. They're convinced it's uncompetetive. I'm convinced the '00-'03 car would dominate AS, but everyone underestimates how quick the EVO / STi are going to be once they're developed a little bit. AS is going to get quicker. I think with ALL the S2000s in there, both AS and BS will be interesting.

Then of course the C6 corvette and Elise are going to come out and require another restructuring of classes.

I personally couldn't care about being nationally competetive, so I'm not going to be car hopping. As such the class structure changing doesn't affect me too much.



Originally posted by racerdave
So there's going to be a S2k "split" just like the 1.6-liter and 1.8-liter Miatas?

BTW -- I was in Boston from 97-99. I autocrossed a black Fiero in Milwaukee in 96 (won a lot, even against Bob "BMW" Clark), then a silver Ford Contour in 99 and 2000. (yuck) I finally got the kart last year, and it's the most fun I've ever had on 4 wheels.

Originally posted by SoloII///M
I'm convinced the '00-'03 car would dominate AS, but everyone underestimates how quick the EVO / STi are going to be once they're developed a little bit.Interestingly, if the S2000's had been in AS last year, they would have taken 2nd through 4th in AS at Nationals, splitting the first two Vettes.

I found it in Fastrack where it was confirmed that the 04 will be in AS, also found this little snipet which you RX_8 guys should find interesting...


"The SAC has requested member feedback
regarding the following proposal:
Effective 1/1/2005, move the Honda
S2000 ('00-'03) and Porsche Boxster ('97+)
to AS (ref. 03-791). Comment: This proposal
accompanies classing of the 2004
Honda S2000 (see Tech Bulletin below).
The SAC feels that the new S2000 should
represent an improvement over the current
car. The differential between BS and AS
now is relatively small and the '04 S2000
should be competitive in AS. This move
protects current participation in BS and
provides growth opportunity for AS. It also
provides a method for longer term ('05)
classing strategy to be possible if supported
by member comment. "

Heh, cool!

I was put in AS the first time I ran my stock RX8!

Originally posted by SoloII///M
A local guy just bought an RX-8. Hopefully he will offer some good competition.

Uh, you mean me? :D Thanks for the potential compliment. Hopefully, I won't need too much of an adjustment period coming from the 325xiT monster truck. ;)

Haha, hello Clyde, I'm sure you will do fine. Though I have managed a couple tweaks to my car in the off season, still chasing the dream I guess :)

I'm registered for the season series. See you at the test and tune?

Originally posted by SoloII///M
Haha, hello Clyde, I'm sure you will do fine. Though I have managed a couple tweaks to my car in the off season, still chasing the dream I guess :)

I'm registered for the season series. See you at the test and tune?

I'm not sure if I'll make the test & tune on Mar 28 with my wife being due on the 30th. Hopefully, someone (p car club?) will put on an event before that.

I figure that you have as good a shot in BS as anyone, regardless of car.

Thanks for the compliment, but Greg Obadia is pretty good, so is Vic Madrid. With those guys driving S2000s it's going to be pretty hard to win. Hell, Greg was running times to beat every single SM car last season! Impressive.

When are you ordering your slicks? :D

The scary thing is that Greg doesn't even really know what he's doing yet. He can just drive. I thought that Vic was selling his S2K and moving out of BS. He recently bought a kart...

I heard that Hoosier was supposed to be starting a production run of the A3S04s in 245/35-18 this week or next. I haven't tried to get pricing info yet. Still, I may run the first couple events on the street tires to learn the car. The last NCC event where I borrowed the E46 M3 was the only one I did with RWD. Everything else I drove last year was AWD. I don't want to tear up a perfectly good set of hohos while I'm getting the driver sorted. :D