I mentioned this in the regional forum but I thought I would post it here as well.

A/C condensers are droppin' like flies here in Houston. The problem is all the rocks that get kicked up into the RX-8's front grill are punching holes in the condensers. It doesn't take hardly any hole size to create a leak that will ruin your condenser.

I stopped driving I-45 because all of the rocks among other things. Well sure enough, I drove it last Friday to get to a party during what I call high speed rush-hour (Traffic at 7PM is dense and fast) and I caught a rock.

The replacement was $800 parts/labor/tax. I thought about maybe getting it fixed some other way but I avoided the hassle and just bit the bullet and got the thing replaced. My dealer is only a medium sized dealer. If he's replacing 1 per week, that could easily mean that Mazda in general is replacing tens of thousands of these per year and while I consider this a design flaw it isn't replaced under warranty.

I have already ordered the Racing Beat screens: http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm . My dealer recommended them to me. (I already knew about them, but I thought simply staying off the busy highways would avoid the problem so I wouldn't need the screens.)

-Mr. Wigggles

I mentioned this in the regional forum but I thought I would post it here as well.

A/C condensers are droppin' like flies here in Houston. The problem is all the rocks that get kicked up into the RX-8's front grill are punching holes in the condensers. It doesn't take hardly any hole size to create a leak that will ruin your condenser.

I stopped driving I-45 because all of the rocks among other things. Well sure enough, I drove it last Friday to get to a party during what I call high speed rush-hour (Traffic at 7PM is dense and fast) and I caught a rock.

The replacement was $800 parts/labor/tax. I thought about maybe getting it fixed some other way but I avoided the hassle and just bit the bullet and got the thing replaced. My dealer is only a medium sized dealer. If he's replacing 1 per week, that could easily mean that Mazda in general is replacing tens of thousands of these per year and while I consider this a design flaw it isn't replaced under warranty.

I have already ordered the Racing Beat screens: http://www.racingbeat.com/FRmazda4.htm . My dealer recommended them to me. (I already knew about them, but I thought simply staying off the busy highways would avoid the problem so I wouldn't need the screens.)

-Mr. Wigggles
RB Screens are great.
I had them on my 04 and now on my 06.
The grid pattern is just the right size to deflect bees and have even caught pea sized
pebbles that I later had to pry out with a jewelers screwdriver.
The have saved me $1,600, a good investment for less then 50 bucks.

I really need to get my Hymee screens put on. This is the second thread like this I've read tonight.

Man this makes you think :confused: is it really a design flaw or a plan for lots of :bling:

I really need to get off my butt and make one of those screens for my car...

brillo had the same thing happen last year in Houston. Drove on the freeway, had a rock hit the condenser and put a hole in it. He too had to pay for a new one. Yes he has screens now!

I consider it a design flaw in the front bumper causing the issue. Mazda said it's not a flaw, but in the end, they didn't fight the claim in court.


You must now be on their crap list.

Good Luck.

RB screens the way to go! :beer05:

Do the screens that come on the 05's work at all?

I've got the oil screens, but have been meaning to do the AC screen for a while. I should stop being lazy and just do it.

They're tiny, they only cover about the bottom 40%

Covering up the bottom 40% might be all that is needed. With the aerodynamics of the car, it could be very difficult for a rock to hit the upper portion.

-Mr. Wigggles

Design fault or Design intention, the openings in the stock front bumper provide a VERY nice and much needed air flow (for radiator, A/C and oil coolers).

So y'all should stop crying like little babies and fork out the 80$ needed to buy the screens from RB or Hymee, or go to your local friendly carshop and let them make you the same screens for about 40$ :)

It's a pity that some of us have to learn the hard way about little "quirks" like those...live and learn...;)

Happened to me too...

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?p=1377845&posted=1#post1377845

theres a differents between "design fault" and "wants happy customer"

In this case, is more like the latter.

Design fault means when they design something , and its not working as its intented to be.

Theres nothing wrong with the A/C condenser design, it gets good airflow and stuff.

Just like World Trade Center, it was designed to withstand wind, earthquake, and lots of people. Its NOT designed to withstand missiles and airplane hit(No offence to 9/11 people, I live in New York City too)

If your 8 got hit by a truck and you died, can your families sue Mazda for "design fault" ?

So its NOT design fault. Thats how I see it.

Get urself a Screen and stop whinning.

I'm with Ryan13b on this one - when we make a design change in our product here at work, we fix all the old ones if needed. We do not go out and make a recall, we just repair it for free if the old part has failed, even when it is out of warranty. So, Mazda should just replace the condensors and add the small screen as a good will gesture.

Well then I guess I will start sueing everybody that I know.

they add a screen yes, for late 2005 models , from my point of view, is mostly a "want customers to be happy" thing.

Just like what I've said, can I or 9/11 victims starts sueing the Japanese guy who designed the World Trade Center for not being able to withstand Plane Crash ? (or his son/daughter, since he passed away long time ago) Theres nothing wrong with the original design, they can re-use the old design to rebuild, but that way no one wants to work up there anymore, so this time they're going to do a new design. See the point? nothing wrong with the original design, but to make customers happy, they have to make something new.

I dont know, everybody has their own point of view I guess.

different point of view, what can I say ?

Oh well, I have RB screens for almost a year Im still happy.

theres a differents between "design fault" and "wants happy customer"

In this case, is more like the latter.

Design fault means when they design something , and its not working as its intented to be.

Theres nothing wrong with the A/C condenser design, it gets good airflow and stuff.

And frequently damaged by rocks, which could easily be avoided. That they made the '05 DESIGN CHANGE cinches it -- the original has a design flaw which they eventually recognized.

And your analogy with the WTC is crazy.

A better one would have been Ford and the pinto.
They knew that if they didn't put a fuel tank sealer inside the tank it could explode. They didn't because they wanted to save money.

Any reasonable automotive engineer knew this *could* be a problem. They were liable when it did.

Any automotive engineer can see Mazda's design *could* be a problem. Now that it is a problem, they're liable.

Maybe non-exploding fuel tanks are a "make the customer happy" kind of thing. Sort of like un-punctured AC condensers. :hahano:

find the hole and put jb weld or any metal epoxy on it. It works

If it wasn't a design flaw, why did they make the production change?

I think the average owner would be horrified if they knew how many parts undergo revisions, manufacturer changes, and complete replacement on a yearly or bi-yearly basis.

For example...here's a little known fact as an example. The rear stud's on the Mazda 6 underwent a part change nearly every single model year....

It usually takes forums almost an entire year to figure out all the little things that get changed with each model year. On the surface, there is usually only minor changes, but when you start digging deeper, all sorts of crazy stuff can change.

I started the thread and I want to add my two cents on whether the '04 condenser sans screens was a "design flaw" or whether the '05 with condenser screen was a "design improvement"

The answer is both the former and the later are true. As highway speeds slowly increase each year in the US, road debris has become an increasing problem. Anti-lock brakes, air bags, and stability control all help avoid or reduce the damage mainly from vehicle to vehicle accidents, they don't do much to prevent road debris damage especially from the smallest of debris.

Mazda should have recognized this (and they eventually did), but does that make them liable for all debris damage incurred from them not having condenser screens? No.

1. They didn't put the debris on the road, somebody else dropped it.

2. They didn't design the road. In my case means I-45 in Houston which often doesn't have shoulders and thus lacks a place for debris to eventually settle.

3. They didn't force me to drive on the road that I did. What level of debris is the RX-8 supposed to endure?

There are no standards for debris tolerance for road worthy vehicles; the NHTSA doesn't spec one and neither does any other international government agency to my knowledge. Thus there aren't any expressed warranties to the abilities of RX-8 to withstand road debris. Maybe rocks and thus this condenser issue aren't a problem at all in Japan or other parts of the world.

I guess what I am leading up to is the notion that because they fixed "the problem" for '05 the damage to the '04 is now their fault. This logic might play out in court, but is quite lacking in solid reasoning. Let's take other examples of debris damage and I think you'll see what I mean.

It is pretty well understood (or at least speculated) that modern water-based car paints are thinner and less chip resistance that previous solvent based versions. Thus the amount of damage to the paint in the front of the vehicle is quite extensive from debris. Now does that make all paint (and headlight) damage Mazda's fault? Most people would say "no"; if you want to preserve your paint, you should get a normal or clear bra for the front of your car. Ok, what if Mazda themselves added a clear bra in '07? Now, would Mazda be responsible for paint damage to all previous years? They "fixed the problem" so it must have been a "design flaw" for the previous years.

Before anyone says paint and headlights are just cosmetic problems and not the same thing, bear in mind that a rock to the condenser doesn't leave you stranded just uncomfortable and out of a chunk of dough. If you want to protect your paint, get a bra. If you want to protect your condenser, get debris screens.

This post sounds like I'm a lawyer for Mazda and I'm not. Heck I'm the one who had to shell out $800; it would be in my best finacial interests to make Mazda out to be the bad guy. However, I don't see how you say that the problem is 100% their fault. If helps people sleep at night, painting Mazda as the villian then so be it, but deep down I think most people don't see this as 100% Mazda's problem.

-Mr. Wigggles

I've had to straighten out condenser fins on all my cars from road debris hitting them over time. I've just been lucky enough to not had anything get punctured. Maybe the RX-8 condenser is thinner than on other cars. I seriously doubt that it gets hit any more than some other cars.

Add me too the list also. What I want to do is change the condenser myself and just let the shop to the purge / recharge. While looking around the net for a replacement I came across two types Parallel Flow Type and "regular" I assume. Is one better than the other? My other question is about removing the condenser. The shop manual states you need to drain the engine coolant, that step doesn't seem to make sense. Can someone confirm this?

Thanks

Haven't posted in probably over a year, but I would like to pipe in with this one. This morning I took my 04 in to get the A/C checked out and sure enough, same problem. Something had impacted the condenser, and lost the charge. About the same quote (770-something). I also went ahead and told them to fix it. It was over 100F here today, and only going to get hotter, so I need to get this fixed. Can't really take the time to devise a way to fix it myself cheaper. I would like to develope a list of people who've had this problem, and see how big of a trend this is. Might at least get Mazda to release a TSB about it that may get us the repair for free.

I had my ac/condenser replaced for the same reason. It was because of that that I did some web searching and found this forum. I like this forum, very informative! But it would have been better if Mazda did a TSB or have dealers notify RX8 owners about the issue. I would have liked to pay for preventative maintenance rather than the more costly repair work.

BTW - my repairs cost me $750 and I did get the Hymee screens afterwards.

I tried to get my dealer to install aftermarket screens and they absolutly refused. You would think that if I paid for them they would compromise and install them. Nope. Mine refuses to install an aftermarket part, even when it could prevent a potential problem.

Well then I guess I will start sueing everybody that I know.

they add a screen yes, for late 2005 models , from my point of view, is mostly a "want customers to be happy" thing.

Just like what I've said, can I or 9/11 victims starts sueing the Japanese guy who designed the World Trade Center for not being able to withstand Plane Crash ? (or his son/daughter, since he passed away long time ago) Theres nothing wrong with the original design, they can re-use the old design to rebuild, but that way no one wants to work up there anymore, so this time they're going to do a new design. See the point? nothing wrong with the original design, but to make customers happy, they have to make something new.

I dont know, everybody has their own point of view I guess.

actualy the WTC was designed to withstand a plane crash into the building, as well as fire........but nobody thought of a plane crash AND fire....so the fire insulation was knocked off the support structure with the force of the crash and then the fire was able to melt the unprotected steel.

JUST a plane crash would have been ok
JUST a fire would have been ok

but the crash and the fire was too much.

I tried to get my dealer to install aftermarket screens and they absolutly refused. You would think that if I paid for them they would compromise and install them. Nope. Mine refuses to install an aftermarket part, even when it could prevent a potential problem.
Ayone know if the '05 Mazda Screens will bolt onto a pre-'05 car? I am going to meet try to meet with the service manager about this issue, and am thinking that as a backup request, i would like to have the screens put on my car. Seems a small favor for the $750 they are making off of me for the repair. (Yes, I know they aren't actually maknig $750 proffit, I'm just venting)

Ayone know if the '05 Mazda Screens will bolt onto a pre-'05 car? I am going to meet try to meet with the service manager about this issue, and am thinking that as a backup request, i would like to have the screens put on my car. Seems a small favor for the $750 they are making off of me for the repair. (Yes, I know they aren't actually maknig $750 proffit, I'm just venting)


They certainly will bolt on.

I dont think I ever expected the Mazda service Dept to ever be reasonable and work with me on the screen issue. I am not that butt-hurt because when I got the car I said to myself "those things look really vulnerable to rocks", and I bought the car anyways!

I ordered my car before every really seeing one, so little things like that went unnoticed. I should have protected it... I even put Stonegard on the car to protect the paint from rocks... just didn't think about the condenser.

Well, it'ss good to know that I am not alone. I requested my dealer to inspect my AC during my last oil change. Sure enough, a rock or something had punctured something up front. They replaced it under warranty, which was cool. But now, after reading this....I had better check on these screens.

Well then I guess I will start sueing everybody that I know.

they add a screen yes, for late 2005 models , from my point of view, is mostly a "want customers to be happy" thing.

Just like what I've said, can I or 9/11 victims starts sueing the Japanese guy who designed the World Trade Center for not being able to withstand Plane Crash ? (or his son/daughter, since he passed away long time ago) Theres nothing wrong with the original design, they can re-use the old design to rebuild, but that way no one wants to work up there anymore, so this time they're going to do a new design. See the point? nothing wrong with the original design, but to make customers happy, they have to make something new.

I dont know, everybody has their own point of view I guess.


if I remember right the trade towers where designed to be able to take the impact of a plane.

I started the thread and I want to add my two cents on whether the '04 condenser sans screens was a "design flaw" or whether the '05 with condenser screen was a "design improvement"

The answer is both the former and the later are true. As highway speeds slowly increase each year in the US, road debris has become an increasing problem. Anti-lock brakes, air bags, and stability control all help avoid or reduce the damage mainly from vehicle to vehicle accidents, they don't do much to prevent road debris damage especially from the smallest of debris.

Mazda should have recognized this (and they eventually did), but does that make them liable for all debris damage incurred from them not having condenser screens? No.

1. They didn't put the debris on the road, somebody else dropped it.

2. They didn't design the road. In my case means I-45 in Houston which often doesn't have shoulders and thus lacks a place for debris to eventually settle.

3. They didn't force me to drive on the road that I did. What level of debris is the RX-8 supposed to endure?

There are no standards for debris tolerance for road worthy vehicles; the NHTSA doesn't spec one and neither does any other international government agency to my knowledge. Thus there aren't any expressed warranties to the abilities of RX-8 to withstand road debris. Maybe rocks and thus this condenser issue aren't a problem at all in Japan or other parts of the world.

I guess what I am leading up to is the notion that because they fixed "the problem" for '05 the damage to the '04 is now their fault. This logic might play out in court, but is quite lacking in solid reasoning. Let's take other examples of debris damage and I think you'll see what I mean.

It is pretty well understood (or at least speculated) that modern water-based car paints are thinner and less chip resistance that previous solvent based versions. Thus the amount of damage to the paint in the front of the vehicle is quite extensive from debris. Now does that make all paint (and headlight) damage Mazda's fault? Most people would say "no"; if you want to preserve your paint, you should get a normal or clear bra for the front of your car. Ok, what if Mazda themselves added a clear bra in '07? Now, would Mazda be responsible for paint damage to all previous years? They "fixed the problem" so it must have been a "design flaw" for the previous years.

Before anyone says paint and headlights are just cosmetic problems and not the same thing, bear in mind that a rock to the condenser doesn't leave you stranded just uncomfortable and out of a chunk of dough. If you want to protect your paint, get a bra. If you want to protect your condenser, get debris screens.

This post sounds like I'm a lawyer for Mazda and I'm not. Heck I'm the one who had to shell out $800; it would be in my best finacial interests to make Mazda out to be the bad guy. However, I don't see how you say that the problem is 100% their fault. If helps people sleep at night, painting Mazda as the villian then so be it, but deep down I think most people don't see this as 100% Mazda's problem.

-Mr. Wigggles


so if mazda decided to put the headlights only 4 inches from the ground (if that could pass law lets say) and I keep chiping my headlights with rocks it's not the fault of mazda? granted you know headlights get chipped it's part of life. but if you put them only 4 inches off the ground you know you chances of getting a chipped/broken headlight are going to be greatly enhanced. and even more so being many other headlights on many other cars would be doing just fine.

or what if they put the air filter right behind the front wheel just above the ground. mazda has no controll of water on a road so they aren't liable from it are they?

the design that mazda used from what I'm picknig up sounds like a issue of bad design. sure they don't controll the rocks on the road but they can control how things are covered and protected to prevent issues like this. and if they knew there would be a problem by not fixing or perventing the problem sounds negligent.

Well then I guess I will start sueing everybody that I know.

they add a screen yes, for late 2005 models , from my point of view, is mostly a "want customers to be happy" thing.

Just like what I've said, can I or 9/11 victims starts sueing the Japanese guy who designed the World Trade Center for not being able to withstand Plane Crash ? (or his son/daughter, since he passed away long time ago) Theres nothing wrong with the original design, they can re-use the old design to rebuild, but that way no one wants to work up there anymore, so this time they're going to do a new design. See the point? nothing wrong with the original design, but to make customers happy, they have to make something new.

I dont know, everybody has their own point of view I guess.Your argument doesn't hold water my friend. If they are retrofitting cars that is to "make the customer happy". For example when the hp numbers were changed by Mazda after the Port Campaign on the original cars shipped they offered a free buy back of every car sold up to that point including all finance charges. That is to make customers happy. Putting screens on a new car where the customer doesn't know about an issue isn't to make them happy it's specifically to prevent a known issue from happening. That's a design change because of a design flaw. The flaw is that the placement of the condenser makes it susseptable to road debris kicked up by other vehicles. Hence Rayn was able to win in court. They aren't going to fight him because they would lose and if they did they would have to retrofit all of our cars for those of us who purchased them before late '05. Mazda isn't accepting responsibility for that reason alone. Screens are the inexpensive solution and if Mazda had to pay out on too many condensers/labor/risk serious customer dissatisfaction then they would take care of it. Ryan did the right thing.

As for you being sue happy... I don't think that has anything to do with getting reimbursed in this situation. Go RYAN!!!:rock:

well simply from reading all yall's posts some fear grew inside of me of having to pay that kinda price when i could just invest it now... so i bought dem screens and an air ram... and some HID fog's.... a big project to take off the nose....

Keef,
The comment about the big project taking off the nose. Is this a statement or a question? I've been wanting to get the screens as well but am afraid of taking off the nose. Everyone here says I'm worrying needlessly. What was your experience.

Mike

The firts time is always the most difficult, but once you figure out how to do it, it only takes about 15 minuets.

They certainly will bolt on.


I have an 05'. They already have an ac screen?

I have an 05'. They already have an ac screen?
You will have to take a look, if it does it will look like THIS (http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/pdf/06-02.pdf)

By the way it's been about 3 weeks since I put on an aftermarket condenser (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=92826) and the A/C works fine. You can fix this yourself for about $400.

From previous posts I thought it was standard equipment on 05' or newer models but I do not have this screen. I will have to get the racing beats. Expo1 did you get the oil cooler screens as well. Thanks.

Yes I got the oil cooler screens but will do them at another time. You do not need to remove the bumper to take out the AC condenser. You do to install the oil screens, I will do that in two weeks when I will have more time.

ok cool.