I just had a positive premonition today that the RX8 is going to be around for at least one more generation. This is the first positive gut feeling I've had about the survivability of the rotary, and yes I am psychic.

There's so much activity across the Mazda lineup. Mazda is doing better than it ever has. It is similar to Nissan's thing the last 4 years. Even though Nissan's new car model explosion has eased a little the last year or two, Nissan maintains its momentum and is still reaping the benefits. Mazda's is on a smaller scale but its activity buzz is in the here and now TODAY.

The feeling I get is Mazda and Nissan are more closely connected than any other company. Toyota's hybrid success isn't immediately relevant to Mazda's health. Honda's new Civic doesn't really POSITIVELY affect anything current at Mazda since the Kabura isn't here yet (and the effect on the Mazda 3 can only be negative). Nissan's momentum, in my gut opinion, transfers and equates to Mazda's momentum. And here's my logic:

The crazy success of the 350Z and G35 (and to some extent the BMW 3-series) transfers to at least continuation for the RX8 and rotary engine, if not equal success. What I'm saying is the success of Mazda's other cars is evidence of the indirect influence on the other Mazda models of the RX8 as a Mazda icon (along with the Miata; What other car company has TWO icons working simultaneously TODAY?) even if the RX8 or rotary is unlikely to ever sell in great quantities. However, the causal direction seems to be RX8 "acting on" the rest of the Mazda lineup. Still, the RX8 has to at least sell at a minimum level to insure the rotary's continuation, which means there must be a force or factor that "acts on" the RX8. I believe this necessary force comes in great part from the 350Z and G35. In fact, I would argue that the 350Z/G35 combo drives the viability of the entire segment and benefits every car company that has a car in the segment (including Mitsubishi, Lotus, Porsche, and cars that are yet-to-be like a Supra replacement and Honda S2000 and/or NSX replacement). An amazing new G35 coupe is about to come out, which I think everyone would agree will sell like crazy, and instead of worrying that it will kill the RX8 sales, I now believe its existence will insure that the RX8 continues to sell at a minimum level, which also means the rotary will continue.

I think you logic is screwy. The RX-8 would most likely sell much better if the 350Z/G35 did not exist. Also the sales of the G35 and 350Z have remained strong and pretty steady, RX-8 sales are nosediving as the months pass.

I had no idea that the RX8 was a nice car until I went to the L.A. auto show. I was looking at Boxsters, 2000s, TTs and others. Try to find info on the RX8 or
stories in magazines, they are very few and far between. I think that the marketing department at Mazda sucks. :shocking:

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you to some extent. Market forces equate to social forces and they can be complex, multi-dimensional, and indirect.

My discourse involves at least two lines of relationships. You attack only one of those lines, without commenting on the overall parallel between Nissan's massive rebound and success focusing on goodlooking cars that are fun to drive and reasonably priced and Mazda's recent rebound/success. Even with this latter, larger relationship, you can't use simple logic to deduce that if Nissan did not have its upswing, then Mazda's recent success would have been even far greater. These are not computer algorithms; these are social forces.

I am not saying my gut feeling will come out true- that the rotary will absolutely survive at least one more generation. I'm saying that what you say and what I say are not mutually exclusive. Both lines of "logic" have been empirically observed many times in history across more things than just automobiles. In fact, both forces have been empirically observed working simultaneously within a single company within one industry.

Many years ago, Nissan got a head start on Infiniti over Toyota's Lexus. The media buzz on the start of Infiniti came before Lexus. However, Lexus ramped things up like only Toyota can and Lexus dealerships were selling cars months before Infiniti was ready. Lexus immediately outshined Infiniti but the concept of luxury Japanese cars was here to stay. Each company was motivated by the other company; they were each other's driving force. Infiniti did not go out of business, even though things were really bad for several years. Each company pushed the other and here we are today (I even thought Infiniti would never recover). Who ever thought China would be the most powerful nation in the world in the first half of the 21 century (actually I predicted this back in the late 80's when I had never heard of the idea from any source)? If market forces were so simple, Infiniti and/or Lexus would have started up many years ago but instead they let Acura take the risk. What I'm saying is things were very unpredictable and that is why they didn't start when Honda decided to start Acura. Both benefited from Acura's prior existence. The 3 companies created and maintained a revolutionary concept that may not have survived with one company alone. Note that right now is about the only time that all 3 luxury Japanese brands are thriving simultaneously. Before the present, the 3-way (at least 3-way) symbiotic relationship allowed a weaker cog at any given time to (1) not destroy that cog permanently and (2) not destroy the whole market concept/segment permanently. Isn't this similar to investment portfolio diversification?

I see the same thing with big SUV's and the social phenomenon of the Hummer. I believe the Hummer is the primary source, the icon (but not the only one of course) that has driven this market even in the face of skyrocketing gas prices. Sales of big SUV's became stale for a time up to the present, but it is clearly temporary. Virtually all the car companies are coming out with newer, bigger trucks and SUV's. It's not about immediate or constant success. It's about keeping a market in existence over a long period of time, even in the face of ups and downs. What is the force that drives that entire market in the face of ups and downs? That's the question. It's not about one cog dominating over all others. Or one cog getting dominated. Our considerations and analyses need to be much wider than the conventional.

So without the 350Z/G35, then the RX8 would have sold even better than about 2000 units/month during the first year? Quite probably. But it also could have dropped sooner and sent the rotary back into oblivion sooner. Back in the 90's, none of the icons (RX7, 300ZX, Supra) were strong enough to counter negative market forces. It's not about the RX8 could have done better. It's about having an icon that is a socio-cultural phenomenon- called the 350Z/G35- that is so powerful that it can counteract negative market forces, and together in a symbiotic relationship with its kissing cousins from the competition (RX8, Evo, WRX STI) sustain a market segment during inevitable ups and downs over the long run.

For some reason, I can't edit my posts.

So let me add here that it's really about the sustainability of the overall market segment. The RX8 is not strong enough to sustain itself or the market all by itself in the face of negative market forces. That extraordinary market force does exist, though, and it's called the 350Z/G35. It is the backbone of and the key piece to the continued existence and long-term health of this market segment as a whole. The RX8 is down right now but it still has a chance to continue to the next step of its existence, thanks to the 350Z/G35 doing so well. Without their existence, the RX8 may have done better early on but it probably would have dropped out of existence sooner.

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uhhh

im confused...

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uhhh

im confused...

Do you know what Zeitgeist or "the right thing at the right time" means?

don't worry man im just messing with you, its just those posts take a little soaking in to get 100% and i partially agree with you in that without competitors the rx8 would sell much better initially, but over the long run it would die out quicker not having support from other cars to keep the market segment going.

Do you know what Zeitgeist or "the right thing at the right time" means?

I do and, and I think the RX-8 was neither of those. It's a great car but the average consumer doesn't understand it, with it's strange engine, lower hp, worse gas mileage than many competitors. If Mazda really wanted to make a dent in this segment they should have gone another direction.

I do and, and I think the RX-8 was neither of those. It's a great car but the average consumer doesn't understand it, with it's strange engine, lower hp, worse gas mileage than many competitors. If Mazda really wanted to make a dent in this segment they should have gone another direction.

Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time are the same thing. The RX8 is neither. I didn't say it was.

Zeitgeist applies to the 350Z/G35. The RX8 has a chance to piggyback on the success of those cars. Without those cars, the RX8 and rotary was dead a year ago. It may still end up dead but, with the advent of the new awesome G35 that will come out in a year, the RX8 at least has a chance to make it to the next generation.

i dont know if the new gtr(if thats what you're talking about) will carry on rx8 sales, but i think there's enough sales of the rx8 to keep the project going for mazda.

Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time are the same thing. The RX8 is neither. I didn't say it was.

Zeitgeist applies to the 350Z/G35. The RX8 has a chance to piggyback on the success of those cars. Without those cars, the RX8 and rotary was dead a year ago. It may still end up dead but, with the advent of the new awesome G35 that will come out in a year, the RX8 at least has a chance to make it to the next generation.

When I say neither of those I mean not the right thing, nor the right time. I'm saying that because there are too many other cars to steal sales away from the RX-8 that on paper look more impressive to the average consumer. The RX-8 isn't lasting longer because of cars like the Z and G35, it's dropping 40ish% in sales compared to last year because of those cars and other sporty cars in a similar price range.

i dont know if the new gtr(if thats what you're talking about) will carry on rx8 sales, but i think there's enough sales of the rx8 to keep the project going for mazda.

He's talking about the redesign of the G35.

Mazda doesn't need the RX8 to make a dent by itself. Mazda is simply using it as an icon for the betterment of its other cars, like the Mazda 3 and 6 and MPS 3 and 6. It has already worked. Remember, the Mazda 6 was dead for its entire first year. It started to gain traction only with the advent of the RX8. In fact, the RX8 might also boost Miata sales. Some people have been worrying about the Miata taking attention away from the RX8 and rotary. But that's exactly what Mazda needs and wants. It was never about the RX8.

Mazda isn't worried about the RX8 or the rotary being a success in sales. It is being used on purpose by Mazda to generate attention on Mazda's other models. It is WE the rotary enthusiasts who want the RX8 to succeed so that the rotary may continue. I am arguing what should be a great relief to rotary enthusiasts, that the RX8 does not necessarily have to succeed in itself for the rotary to continue; it merely has to succeed in generating attention onto Mazda's other cars and as long as it sells at a bare minimal level, whatever that is. Its chances of staying at or above that bare minimal level is increased with the continued success of the 350Z/G35.

Right now, if we focus only on the RX8 sales itself, things appear bleak. However, if I am even partly right, rotary enthusiasts have at least some reasons to breathe as sigh of relief. If we can just make it to the next generation, anything can happen at that time.

When I say neither of those I mean not the right thing, nor the right time. I'm saying that because there are too many other cars to steal sales away from the RX-8 that on paper look more impressive to the average consumer. The RX-8 isn't lasting longer because of cars like the Z and G35, it's dropping 40ish% in sales compared to last year because of those cars and other sporty cars in a similar price range.

As I say in the previous post, this is not as critical as you might think. (1) What is critical is that the RX8 generates attention onto Mazda's other cars, which it definitely has, regardless of its steep drop in sales. There is however a new nuance, and that is the new Miata. The RX8 segwayed nicely into the new Miata, and the question might be if the Miata has the iconic power to energize the rest of the lineup on its own without the help of the RX8. It's sort of like Godzilla needed the help of that fricking floppy-eared ridiculous monkey monster to beat the Mecha-Godzilla, who was on the verge of knocking Godzilla out until that poor floppy-eared, long-tailed disaster was getting sliced and diced but took some attention off of Godzilla, which allowed Godzilla to take a breather and make a recovery. I will bet that Mazda is currently analyzing this, and my prediction is that Mazda has decided or will decide shortly that it can't take the chance. The Miata and RX8 need each other. It's sort of like the concept of lost leader. (2) Of peripheral importance is that the RX8 minimize losses, break even, or sell at a minimal acceptable level (whatever that may be, I don't know). Mazda doesn't need the RX8 to be a sales success; it merely needs it to stay in the public's awareness. The 350Z/G35 insures that all the cars in the segment (Evo, WRX STI, RX8) stay in the public's awareness. As long as that continues, somewhat independently of its own sales, the RX8 will successfully accomplish its goal as far as Mazda is concerned, which is to generate attention onto Mazda's other cars. In addition, as long as Mazda's overall success continues, then OUR (rotary enthusiasts) goal might also be accomplished- the continuation of the rotary for at least one more generation.

an anecdotal evidence: a family friend of ours came to my house for a visit, they saw my RX-8, was fascinated by its looks (they have no idea what's underneith the hood), so we started talking about it, and the dad asked the general questions about any car (price/reliability/PRACTICALITY), and mentioned that he wants to get a car to replace his son's beater Mitsu Mirage.

They ended up buying a titanium Mazda3 5 door for him.

I think, if they haven't seen my 8 sitting in my garage, they would have NEVER even looked at the Mazda lineup, and found the little gem that is the Mazda3

I don't think the RX-8 refelcts so positively on Mazda. The car is regularly critisized on other cars forums, the rotary engine is bashed, the horsepower debacle it laughed about as is the gas mileage. I don't agree with the bashing, but in enthusiast communities other than this one the RX-8 isn't spoken of very highly. The RX-8 is not a halo car, Mazda never wanted it to be a halo car. It was built with the intention of being a sales success and money maker with hopes of selling around 30k units per year in the US. They have fallen well short and sales continue to plummet.

That being said, I hope you're correct and there is one more generation. I'd love to see Mazda extract more horsepower out of the Renesis and maybe address some of the issues with the car. If they don't go forward with it I hope they take the RX-8 (or similar package) and put a refined version of the MS6 engine with proper cooling in it.

Good point. Seems like Mazda is pushing development of the MZR what with that racing series car. Maybe the future of Mazda sports cars lies in a lightweight high HP 4-banger. That would be awesome.

How are they able to get 300 HP out of the MZR without FI? Is that pretty normal for NA racing engines of that displacement?

an anecdotal evidence: a family friend of ours came to my house for a visit, they saw my RX-8, was fascinated by its looks (they have no idea what's underneith the hood), so we started talking about it, and the dad asked the general questions about any car (price/reliability/PRACTICALITY), and mentioned that he wants to get a car to replace his son's beater Mitsu Mirage.

They ended up buying a titanium Mazda3 5 door for him.

I think, if they haven't seen my 8 sitting in my garage, they would have NEVER even looked at the Mazda lineup, and found the little gem that is the Mazda3

Exactly, yes yes yes. Most average buyers have no idea what the rotary is or all the negative crap about reliability, oil, HP, mpg. They see a ton of RX8's on the lot and they look cool, suggesting Mazda is a cool company that is happening and on the cutting edge in exterior design. Then they buy a 6, 3, or Miata.

Good point. Seems like Mazda is pushing development of the MZR what with that racing series car. Maybe the future of Mazda sports cars lies in a lightweight high HP 4-banger. That would be awesome.

How are they able to get 300 HP out of the MZR without FI? Is that pretty normal for NA racing engines of that displacement?

the only similarity between the production MZR and the Cosworth-built 2.3L MZR for the Champ Car Altantic series is the block, everything else is probably upgraded for racing use :rock:

Can we get that fricking engine for the RX8? That is my dream. Can someone buy that engine and swap it into their 8?

Can you see a Miata or Kabura-like car with that engine in the near future. My god.

those cars are probably also tuned to run on racing gas.... street 93 gas would probably blow it up lol

those cars are probably also tuned to run on racing gas.... street 93 gas would probably blow it up lol

Blowing up an engine would not deter a rotary enthusiast.

Cooder i think you make some valid points, imo its just a simple case of supply vs demand...

Nissan saw that Honda's s2000 had the entire japanese sports car segment to it self and decided to join the compeition because theres demand that justifies that move... Mazda did the same thing. At the end of the day Nissan had the strongest product from a business standpoint, its not necessarily the best car, but its the car that attracted the most buyers.

And due to the success of the Z, Mazda have little reason to exit the market just because it hadnt done well this generation. The only reason why a company would leave a market segment is if the entire segment is not profitable or oversaturated. When this happens, sales in the entire segment crashes. This is however clearly not the case, since 350z and g35 is enjoying strong sales and demand. --- the demand is there.

So Mazda has no reason to leave the market, and in fact Mazda have strong incentive to design a "stronger" product next gen that can compete better and grab a bigger share of the market. ---- again the underlying key point is that the demand for sub 30k rwd japanese sports car is there. When theres demand, there will ultimately be competition, this is why Chevy and Dodge are busy making retro muscle cars after seeing Mustang's success. so chances are we will see a next gen RX.

Cooder i think you make some valid points, imo its just a simple case of supply vs demand...

Nissan saw that Honda's s2000 had the entire japanese sports car segment to it self and decided to join the compeition because theres demand that justifies that move... Mazda did the same thing. At the end of the day Nissan had the strongest product from a business standpoint, its not necessarily the best car, but its the car that attracted the most buyers.

And due to the success of the Z, Mazda have little reason to exit the market just because it hadnt done well this generation. The only reason why a company would leave a market segment is if the entire segment is not profitable or oversaturated. When this happens, sales in the entire segment crashes. This is however clearly not the case, since 350z and g35 is enjoying strong sales and demand. --- the demand is there.

So Mazda has no reason to leave the market, and in fact Mazda have strong incentive to design a "stronger" product next gen that can compete better and grab a bigger share of the market. ---- again the underlying key point is that the demand for sub 30k rwd japanese sports car is there. When theres demand, there will ultimately be competition, this is why Chevy and Dodge are busy making retro muscle cars after seeing Mustang's success. so chances are we will see a next gen RX.

I agree completely.

Cooder i think you make some valid points, imo its just a simple case of supply vs demand...

Nissan saw that Honda's s2000 had the entire japanese sports car segment to it self and decided to join the compeition because theres demand that justifies that move... Mazda did the same thing. At the end of the day Nissan had the strongest product from a business standpoint, its not necessarily the best car, but its the car that attracted the most buyers.

And due to the success of the Z, Mazda have little reason to exit the market just because it hadnt done well this generation. The only reason why a company would leave a market segment is if the entire segment is not profitable or oversaturated. When this happens, sales in the entire segment crashes. This is however clearly not the case, since 350z and g35 is enjoying strong sales and demand. --- the demand is there.

So Mazda has no reason to leave the market, and in fact Mazda have strong incentive to design a "stronger" product next gen that can compete better and grab a bigger share of the market. ---- again the underlying key point is that the demand for sub 30k rwd japanese sports car is there. When theres demand, there will ultimately be competition, this is why Chevy and Dodge are busy making retro muscle cars after seeing Mustang's success. so chances are we will see a next gen RX.


Good job simplifying his argument :icon_tup:

I agree too. If you also factor in how Mazda is able to amortize the costs of the RX-8 platform with the MX-5 and possibly a Kabura-based car... it only makes this argument strong. Lastly adding in the fact that more RX-8's have been sold than FD's... even if sales are on the decline... it's still doing decently. Declining sales... well the car IS due for a facelift (and we all wish more power)... most cars do see a decline in sales as the design gets old...

A facelift RX-8 and a next gen RX-8 are on the books as of the present. In a year the next gen may not... in a year the world may end. Let's deal with "what is" and not "what if" here...

The RX-8 is in no danger of going away any time soon. It's sales are also not doing bad. I don't know how many times certain people need to be blatantly schooled over and over again on this fact.

The RX-8 is in no danger of going away any time soon. It's sales are also not doing bad. I don't know how many times certain people need to be blatantly schooled over and over again on this fact.

I wouldn't have to point it out so often if you didn't insist that sales weren't poor. :) Compared to an FD they don't look so bad as you've pointed out, but sales are far short of Mazda/Ford goals and are declining rapidly. The RX-8 should be selling really well considering all the great press and awards, it's just not the case.

I don't think the RX-8 refelcts so positively on Mazda. The car is regularly critisized on other cars forums, the rotary engine is bashed, the horsepower debacle it laughed about as is the gas mileage. I don't agree with the bashing, but in enthusiast communities other than this one the RX-8 isn't spoken of very highly.

The RX-8 is not a halo car, Mazda never wanted it to be a halo car. It was built with the intention of being a sales success and money maker with hopes of selling around 30k units per year in the US. They have fallen well short and sales continue to plummet.



I think the rx8 does reflect postively on Mazda. Its won many awards, engine of the year awards, 10 best, and other comparos. It gets bashed by street racers on forums which I could care less about in terms of generating what constitutes 'respect' in the automotive world.

I know you don't agree with the bashing, which is cool, but my point is simply "enthusiast communties" doesn't equal "credible communities". So its hard to say that because of 'enthusiast' communtities the rx8 isn't a postive reflection on Mazda, because in the 'professional communty'- being journalists, it has garned praise and generally respected.

I think Mazda's main goal in building the 8 was keeping a rotary yet learning from what halted sales of the FD. It wasn't desinged to be a Taurus to just generate sales- they just did their best to keep a balance, and appeal to people who want that balance. :Peace:

I think the rx8 does reflect postively on Mazda. Its won many awards, engine of the year awards, 10 best, and other comparos. It gets bashed by street racers on forums which I could care less about in terms of generating what constitutes 'respect' in the automotive world.

I know you don't agree with the bashing, which is cool, but my point is simply "enthusiast communties" doesn't equal "credible communities". So its hard to say that because of 'enthusiast' communtities the rx8 isn't a postive reflection on Mazda, because in the 'professional communty'- being journalists, it has garned praise and generally respected.

I think Mazda's main goal in building the 8 was keeping a rotary yet learning from what halted sales of the FD. It wasn't desinged to be a Taurus to just generate sales- they just did their best to keep a balance, and appeal to people who want that balance. :Peace:
:werd: well said! I agree completly!
but seriously guys go to ANY car forum.. you know whats gonna happen? cars are gonna get bashed! no matter what car you own, someone is going to think theirs' is better! when the SRT-4 guys come to our site we bash them because they're ugly and FWD, we go over there they bash us because we're slower and overpriced...... whatever........ :suspect:

What the fizzle!? I can't edit mah post! ohh well.... I've already forgot what I was gonna add anyway .... :squint:

The RX-8 was absolutely the right car at the right time.

For me.

As far as sales, I am steadfast in my belief that they could have sold a lot more cars if the marketting wasn't so abysmal/non-existent. The overwhelming majority of people don't even know the car exists, and the next largest group only know that it's a car that hugs you. It was almost by pure luck that I happened to stumble upon the 8 myself.

BTW, Nissan ads are either bad or nonexistent and they've still managed to skyrocket. But I agree, not every company can take advantage of that.

Mazda is not the biggest richest car company. Even with limited ads, Mazda as a whole seems to be growing. When I compare Nissan's and Mazda's recent recovery from the graveyard, I see shortcuts and trickery with Nissan but little of that with Mazda (as a whole). The new Nissan products are goodlooking, fun to drive, but flawed in many areas of engineering and materials. The flaws were not incidental; they were strategically planned and placed. When your business plan involves how to sell flawed products, you must rely on deception and manipulation of perception, and Nissan accomplished that masterfully. Execution was well done and Nissan reaped the profits.

In contrast, I see Mazda doing things more slowly and in the old-fashioned way, the right way, focusing on each aspect of engineering a step at a time. Five or six years ago, Mazda decided to focus on handling and zoom zoom. Everything was about perfect platform design and chassis balance. That was the first step. This concept has now permeated every single model in Mazda's lineup. The second step seemed to be push the envelope with exterior and interior design elements. Mazda is now a leader in this area and we see all kinds of cars, including Mercedes, copying the RX8 front fenders and suicide doors. The Miata, MPS 6, and CX7 continue this concept of leadership in design. However, the weak link at Mazda has always been the powerplants in terms of HP and mileage. Mileage is not the primary thing in most Americans' minds and Mazda has always been in the middle of the pack there with its piston engines, which is fine. But HP is more and more in the public's awareness and Mazdas have always been in the lower range. Mazda's spiel has been fun to drive is about chassis balance and you don't want to hurt that. But now I sense Mazda is going for more HP. This is the third step. I see a plan to spread FI throughout the lineup and to develop the MZR 4-banger for high outpout and put that engine center stage. The turbocharged last generation Miata was the beginning that has continued into the MPS 6, MPS 3, and CX7. I wonder if pushing the MZR in NA form is on the mind of Mazda with the new racing series using a 300 HP NA MZR. I predict next up will be to develop a high output V6 in both NA and FI form to go head to head with the best 6's that Nissan, Honda, and Toyota have to offer. I think Mazda realizes that Nissan, Honda, Toyota and even Mitsubishi and Subaru were leaving it behind in the HP war and that the HP war is here to stay for a while.

Doing things the right way might be slower and step by step but might also mean smarter and better long term health. Full concept marketing must first be full concept engineering. In this sense, I think Mazda has done it better than Nissan.

agreed.

Mazda is building up slowly but surely. 3 years ago, u hardly see any Mazda cars on the road. You can see a Protege or a Millennina once in a while but very unlikely ...

Now, I can see lots of 3 and 6 running around.

Is this a success? My Opinion : Yes

We just gotta wait another 3 yrs or so , then we'll see whats the result.

I think if Mazda pulled the RX-8, it would be a little too reactionary.

Well, if Mazda did that, it would be paranoid and stupid. Mazda is neither. But not everyone is like that. Give it just a little more time, and I think there will be many jealous factions out there. Mazda is doing things out there on its own and with no jealousy, fear, or distraction. It's focused on its work and understands it has no place for complacency, idleness, or idolatry, which can only bring yourself down. You can only respect that.

BTW, Nissan ads are either bad or nonexistent and they've still managed to skyrocket. But I agree, not every company can take advantage of that.

Mazda is not the biggest richest car company. Even with limited ads, Mazda as a whole seems to be growing. When I compare Nissan's and Mazda's recent recovery from the graveyard, I see shortcuts and trickery with Nissan but little of that with Mazda (as a whole). The new Nissan products are goodlooking, fun to drive, but flawed in many areas of engineering and materials. The flaws were not incidental; they were strategically planned and placed. When your business plan involves how to sell flawed products, you must rely on deception and manipulation of perception, and Nissan accomplished that masterfully. Execution was well done and Nissan reaped the profits.

In contrast, I see Mazda doing things more slowly and in the old-fashioned way, the right way, focusing on each aspect of engineering a step at a time. Five or six years ago, Mazda decided to focus on handling and zoom zoom. Everything was about perfect platform design and chassis balance. That was the first step. This concept has now permeated every single model in Mazda's lineup. The second step seemed to be push the envelope with exterior and interior design elements. Mazda is now a leader in this area and we see all kinds of cars, including Mercedes, copying the RX8 front fenders and suicide doors. The Miata, MPS 6, and CX7 continue this concept of leadership in design. However, the weak link at Mazda has always been the powerplants in terms of HP and mileage. Mileage is not the primary thing in most Americans' minds and Mazda has always been in the middle of the pack there with its piston engines, which is fine. But HP is more and more in the public's awareness and Mazdas have always been in the lower range. Mazda's spiel has been fun to drive is about chassis balance and you don't want to hurt that. But now I sense Mazda is going for more HP. This is the third step. I see a plan to spread FI throughout the lineup and to develop the MZR 4-banger for high outpout and put that engine center stage. The turbocharged last generation Miata was the beginning that has continued into the MPS 6, MPS 3, and CX7. I wonder if pushing the MZR in NA form is on the mind of Mazda with the new racing series using a 300 HP NA MZR. I predict next up will be to develop a high output V6 in both NA and FI form to go head to head with the best 6's that Nissan, Honda, and Toyota have to offer. I think Mazda realizes that Nissan, Honda, Toyota and even Mitsubishi and Subaru were leaving it behind in the HP war and that the HP war is here to stay for a while.

Doing things the right way might be slower and step by step but might also mean smarter and better long term health. Full concept marketing must first be full concept engineering. In this sense, I think Mazda has done it better than Nissan.

Nissan has had some of the best ad campaigns of any car manufacturer the last decade. A huge part of their success was in large part the ad campaign for the Maxima, with songs like Ton' Diner, The Crystal Method, and Clubed to Death, Though they would have been better had this one stayed on TV longer :) http://media.putfile.com/Nissan-Boobs

After reading your second paragraph I shall bid you adieu.... Wow, just wow...

As you know, the current Maxima isn't doing so well. Neither is the Murano, although there were some initial ads and it appears they're trying to get attention back onto the Murano right now. All this doesn't matter because Nissan has several other cars selling well and producing a lot of profit for it. Similarly, it doesn't make sense for Mazda to spend too much of its limited ad money on the RX8. It's also unnecessary since other models are bringing in profit.

You must also be aware of Nissan's direct and indirect admission of the shortcuts it took, which is now biting it in the ass a little. The direct admission is only semi-direct where Nissan has acknowledged that when you put out that many new models in such a short period of time without enough high level engineers to go around, you are bound to face a mountain of recalls and warranty service, which is what they're facing right now. Nissan will be ok for three reasons. First, their profits are huge. Second, they responded very quickly, for example, fixing the interiors of the Altima and G35 (indirect admissions) and quickly making the G35 sedan more like the coupe in exterior and HP. That's pretty damn smart. Third, they are moving fast forward with even more new cars and next generations, in which fixes are sure to be embedded.

Mazda's plan has been to go step by step. Nissan's business plan was to get a ton of goodlooking cars out and obscure the flaws and worry about fixing them later. A lesser company with fewer resources, less energy, a conventional business plan, and a conventional leadership (like GM and Ford) would have failed. Nissan is trying to fix the flaws quickly and then move forward. Keep in mind that the idea of putting products out even with flaws is the backbone philosophy of 99.9999999% of businesses in the history of the world. Get it out to market NOW, not later. Who hasn't heard the arrogant statement "I can sell anything"? That is actually a philosophy that is instilled in virtually every red-blooded businessman, that the true test of how worthy a businessman you are is if you can sell any product, even the shittiest product. Mazda has had some issues as well, notably in the renesis and MPS 6, but both these cars are not for high volume sales. Nissan's issues are across the board but they are still relatively anonymous and Nissan is addressing them quickly and moving forward.

That commercial is hilarious.

I didn't see the commercial. Do you think it's going to help the Maxima sell better?

Nissan has had some of the best ad campaigns of any car manufacturer the last decade. A huge part of their success was in large part the ad campaign for the Maxima, with songs like Ton' Diner, The Crystal Method, and Clubed to Death, Though they would have been better had this one stayed on TV longer :) http://media.putfile.com/Nissan-Boobs

After reading your second paragraph I shall bid you adieu.... Wow, just wow...

Nissan has in fact had some of the worst ad campaigns in the history of ads. When I was a kid, they had the Nissan "family" ad campaign with the dad and the cute little girl Erin. Industry "pundits" now conclude that the problem was the ads had nothing to do with the cars.

Just before the recent Nissan rebirth, they were trying to sell that really really crappy small pickup truck. The ad had the truck doing a slide in a puddle of water, camera was close up, showing an amazing amount of cowl flex, which is NOT a good thing! The whole damn front and side of the truck was flexing. Meanwhile, the background music was rock n roll singing "The best there ever was..." That was the funniest, most pathetic, and most arrogant car ad I had ever seen. The pickup truck went nowhere, of course. But it wasn't about the truck, right? It was about portraying Nissan as a hot, fun, and happening car company. Do you think that ad succeeded with that? Hell no.

About the same time was another similarly arrogant and pathetic ad for another Nissan car, I forgot which one. It had another classic rock song that was wrongly selected for the ad and really really annoying. That string of ads portraying Nissan as a rock and roll company were absolutely terrible and did nothing for the company.

Shortly after all that BS came the current era and spate of Nissan "CPR" cars and the "Shift_#####" ads, which I think were very effective by focusing on a new thinking and philosophy that is outside the box. But come on, Maxima ads doing wonders for Nissan as a whole?

Your talking about old commercials when they were struggling. What part of in "the last decade" do you not understand?

Nissan has won 7 Effies (The Grammy equal for the commercial world) since the year 2000, Mazda has never won one. These are awards moreso for effectiveness rather than entertainment value. The Maxima campaigns did not save Nissan but that ad campaign helped send them in the right direction. They stopped doing cutesy ads that were entertaining and started showcasing the cars first and formost, usually with an infectious song and some aggressive driving. After the Maxima commercials, the Xterra ads come to mind, the launch of the 350Z,the launch of the Altima, the latest 350Z campaign is the same old Nissan formula and it works, it's a great commercial.

Meanwhile Mazda has a freaking car hugging its owner, if I owned an RX-8 I'd want to puke every time I saw that commercial. The whole zoom zoom campaign is terribly annoying and if anything makes me not want to buy a Mazda car, at least they got rid of that obnoxious kid.

Last decade means since 1995 or so. Sounds like you mean last 5 years. The ads since 2000 have nothing to do with infectious classic rock songs.

That string of classic rock ads were within the last 10 years and they were terrible. They did nothing for Nissan and they were before the current Nissan resurgence. The ridiculous Nissan Frontier ad that I mentioned earlier actually won a 2002 Effie, so yes you are right when you say the Effie's are just like the Grammy's, which the artists take with a grain of salt. Seventy percent of the score comes from creative and media. Visually it was interesting but the truck sucked, sold like the worst crap, maybe sales went up after the commercial which meant it still sold like crap, had a hilariously misplaced rock soundtrack that sang "the best there ever was," and had no impact at all on Nissan as a whole.

We don't need to compare Mazda ads to Nissan ads. That's beside the point. In fact the Effie Award winners back to 1994 can hardly be said to have a significant effect on sales. Last year's award for the Nissan G35 all wheel drive launch? Only 30% of the score comes from "proof of results." What proof and how do you prove it? They going to count up internet "impressions"? They don't have the resources to verify everything and the companies themselves present their own data. Come on. It's a fun award that can't be taken too seriously. BTW, I count 6 awards since 2000, not 7.

Last decade means since 1995 or so. Sounds like you mean last 5 years. The ads since 2000 have nothing to do with infectious classic rock songs.

That string of classic rock ads were within the last 10 years and they were terrible. They did nothing for Nissan and they were before the current Nissan resurgence.

I'm fully aware of what the last decade means, if I had a great meal yesterday and said it's one of the greatest meals I've had in the last decade would you argue with me that it can't be so just because I had some awful meals in 1997?
And no, I don't mean the last 5 years, Nissan had some greats ads in the mid 90s as well, they just didn't help sales much. The "Toys" commercial from '96 was picked by Rolling Stone and Time magazine as commercial of the year.

Point out once where I said infectious classic rock song. I'm talking about songs such as Clubed to Death by Rob Dougan (?), Tom's Diner by Suzanne Vega, Blur's Song 2, Breeder's Cannonball, Lenny Kravitz Fly Away, Morrisey How Soon is now, Morphine, Kinky's Mas, Air's Surfing on a Rocket, Thwe Vines' Ride, The Chemical Brothers, Modest Mouse, Lit, and many many more. Not a single one of them classic rock. Except for two commercials I can't recall much classic rock, even prior to 2000, one was Stevie Ray Vaughn Voodoo Chile and The Who Won't get Fooled again in one of those Maxima commercials that helped change the direction of Nissan, both occured in or after the year 2000 and were very successful ad Campaigns. I believe the slogan for the Maxima was, Cars Like It: 0.

The Maxima ads helped change the direction of Nissan? No way. If so, then I guess a lot of thriving car companies like Honda and Toyota need to worry because they didn't win too many Effies in the last 5 years.

It's about the new Nissan products getting the public excited and the fact that just before, things were real bad. If you have exciting products coming out and the commercials happen to coincide, then of course they're going to correlate with increased sales. But to make a causal conclusion? I don't think so.

Mazda also went from down to up, even with very few ads. Honda and Toyota have been strong for years and their ads won few Effies. Taken together, it's about quality products and exciting products creating sales. When the products are exciting, even bad ads will help, although they will not win an Effie, with 70% of the score from creative and media. Although Nissan's ads of the last 5 years may have been judged creative, it would be much harder to establish and extremely unlikely regardless that they are responsible for increased sales. Of course, I'm not talking about Nissan's current "Shift_####" ads, which I think are good. I'm talking about those terrible rock ads (yes, the Frontier ad won an Effie in 2002, but it is still absolutely terrible. It won because of the nature of the criteria) just before the current Nissan upswing and new models.

BTW, Nissan ads are either bad or nonexistent and they've still managed to skyrocket. But I agree, not every company can take advantage of that.


This is what I was refuting, this has nothing to do with Honda and Toyota. You can admit you were wrong now.

The Maxima ads helped change the direction of Nissan? No way. If so, then I guess a lot of thriving car companies like Honda and Toyota need to worry because they didn't win too many Effies in the last 5 years.

It's about the new Nissan products getting the public excited and the fact that just before, things were real bad. If you have exciting products coming out and the commercials happen to coincide, then of course they're going to correlate with increased sales. But to make a causal conclusion? I don't think so.

Mazda also went from down to up, even with very few ads. Honda and Toyota have been strong for years and their ads won few Effies. Taken together, it's about quality products and exciting products creating sales. When the products are exciting, even bad ads will help, although they will not win an Effie, with 70% of the score from creative and media. Although Nissan's ads of the last 5 years may have been judged creative, it would be much harder to establish and extremely unlikely regardless that they are responsible for increased sales. Of course, I'm not talking about Nissan's current "Shift_####" ads, which I think are good. I'm talking about those terrible rock ads (yes, the Frontier ad won an Effie in 2002, but it is still absolutely terrible. It won because of the nature of the criteria) just before the current Nissan upswing and new models.

Your first paragraph, much like your original argument, is so fallacy ladden I won't even bother...

Your second paragraph... point out once where I say anything to the contrary iof what you say there. In fact I even said a great ad campaign won't do you any good if you don't have a good product to go along with it.

You're hung up on the whole effie thing, let it go.

This is what I was refuting, this has nothing to do with Honda and Toyota. You can admit you were wrong now.

(1) I sensed this in you. You are so focused on challenging people that you only see what you want, even with other peoples' words. Yes, many of the Nissan ads are bad, regardless of what Effie says. Ads for many of their cars are nonexistent. Of course, they have so many cars and they choose where they want to spend their ad money. What I said stands. No wavering, no backtracking.


(2) You did not fully absorb my initial post and you quickly attack my logic as "screwy" in your first post. You didn't consider my larger argument and erroneously overfocus on a direct connection between 350Z/G35 and RX8 sales. You assume it is all or nothing, that multiple forces that seem in opposition can't work simultaneously. And of course you are wrong. Many subsequent posters support my position. I am confident you now realize my logic was not "screwy" but you never posted a follow-up conceding anything. That isn't your style.

(3) You actually did not understand when I said Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time, I was referring to the 350Z/G35. You directed your retort at the RX8 being neither, indicating you missed the point. Even your after the fact backtracking and misdirection attempts didn't fool me. You jumped the gun again and misunderstood again but instead of fessing up to it, you cover yourself up even more. This is your way. Instead of humiliating you further, I just let it go, evidence of which is when I posted "good point...." This thread topic is the best damn topic that's come up in some time and I don't want to ruin it because of some ego challenge. Let's focus on the topic, man.

(4) You keep pushing the 40% decline in RX8 sales without realizing that it has very little to do with and very little against my original hypothesis. It is as if you are on your own track and just can't even attempt to broaden your perspective. Even I said up front that our statements are not mutually exclusive.

(5) You backtrack again with the blabber about the ads when you say "last 10 years" covers everything you said. Haha!. Come on, man, when are you ever going to play it straight? If you knew exactly what you were talking about you would have said "last 5 years." The ads in the mid-90's were good? Ha ha, yeah right.

(6) You can admit you were wrong now. If you won't, I expect others soon will do it for you, just as they did earlier in the thread without addressing you directly (by supporting what I said). There is something rigid and extreme about your personality.

I thought that cowl flex line sounded familiar. Did you write that yourself?

No I got it from you, remember?

Hahaha....nice.

That's the last time I do you a favor then. :balls:

(1) I sensed this in you. You are so focused on challenging people that you only see what you want, even with other peoples' words. Yes, many of the Nissan ads are bad, regardless of what Effie says. Ads for many of their cars are nonexistent. Of course, they have so many cars and they choose where they want to spend their ad money. What I said stands. No wavering, no backtracking.


(2) You did not fully absorb my initial post and you quickly attack my logic as "screwy" in your first post. You didn't consider my larger argument and erroneously overfocus on a direct connection between 350Z/G35 and RX8 sales. You assume it is all or nothing, that multiple forces that seem in opposition can't work simultaneously. And of course you are wrong. Many subsequent posters support my position. I am confident you now realize my logic was not "screwy" but you never posted a follow-up conceding anything. That isn't your style.

(3) You actually did not understand when I said Zeitgeist and the right thing at the right time, I was referring to the 350Z/G35. You directed your retort at the RX8 being neither, indicating you missed the point. Even your after the fact backtracking and misdirection attempts didn't fool me. You jumped the gun again and misunderstood again but instead of fessing up to it, you cover yourself up even more. This is your way. Instead of humiliating you further, I just let it go, evidence of which is when I posted "good point...." This thread topic is the best damn topic that's come up in some time and I don't want to ruin it because of some ego challenge. Let's focus on the topic, man.

(4) You keep pushing the 40% decline in RX8 sales without realizing that it has very little to do with and very little against my original hypothesis. It is as if you are on your own track and just can't even attempt to broaden your perspective. Even I said up front that our statements are not mutually exclusive.

(5) You backtrack again with the blabber about the ads when you say "last 10 years" covers everything you said. Haha!. Come on, man, when are you ever going to play it straight? If you knew exactly what you were talking about you would have said "last 5 years." The ads in the mid-90's were good? Ha ha, yeah right.

(6) You can admit you were wrong now. If you won't, I expect others soon will do it for you, just as they did earlier in the thread without addressing you directly (by supporting what I said). There is something rigid and extreme about your personality.

1.) Great, what you said is still dead wrong. Nissan's ads are memorable, quite prevelant, and award winning. NOT "bad" nor "nonexistent".

2.) I quickly attack your logic because it's flawed. Your whole first argument is a non causa pro causa. The exitence of the 350Z and G35 will have no bearing on whether the RX-8 will make it to another generation. Sales and profitability have everything to do with that. Heads of Mazda have stated many times that the RX-8 is not a halo car and is meant to make money for the company. Lastly, lets not pretend you're just learning my style, you knew what you were up against all along, as did I. Precisely why I have not gone into great depth with refuting your posts, I am fully aware that I am dealing with a psycho, whatever forum name you've chosen this month

3.) I may have misunderstood which car you were refering to, but you don't even know what zeitgeist really refers to. You came across as a kid that just learned a big new word in a college class. I let that go... Zeitgeist is literally "spirit of the times" and is properly used to descripe literature and works of art as well as the feeling of a general era. "Zeitgeist is a German word. Zeit meaning "time" and Geist meaning "ghost," Zeitgeist means the spirit of the age or times. The trend of thought and counter-thought specific to a certain temporo-spatial environs".

This isn't the best topic that has come up in a long time, it's a misguided rant from someone that has displayed strong bias and wayward thinking many times in the past.

4.) See number 2, the part about the halo car and non causa pro causa

5.) The Toys ad was quite good as I pointed out, and it won awards to prove it, that was 1996. Regardless,I say the new VW commercials are one of the best ad campaigns of the decade, simply because the decade goes back 10 years does not make my statement any less true simply because VW had some bad ads in that 10 year span.

6.) Sorry bud, not happening. Like I've said in the past, you'll be banned soon anyhow and it won't matter, then I get to play my little game of figuring which new screen name you have. Why do you insist on continueing to come back to a place that clearly doesn't want you? A place where in the past you've done little but try to stir up[ trouble and fling insults? Do you realize how insane that makes you look?

Just quickly scan your other posts in other threads. Everyone can tell you're not quite right in the head. You are unable to focus on the issue, which may be multifaceted. You focus on one line of thinking, yours. This is you. You have been like this for a long time. You just can't stop it. Thus, in real life, it's been harmful to your relationships.

I know exactly what Zeitgeist means. And you know that I know. You still don't understand that many forces can work simultaneously. You really don't get it or you really don't want to get it. Now that's rigid. Because I have already mentioned that what I said has been observed empirically many times in the industry and other industries. The thinking, the consideration is sound. However, it is not guaranteed that the RX8 will behave that way. It is clear that the 350Z/G35 drives the market segment. And that insures Mazda will keep attention and resources on the market segment, whether it's the RX8 or another sports car. Regardless of its sales, the RX8 has already accomplished its job by bringing attention to the other Mazda models. It is absolutely insane that even with prior empirical historical evidence, you would call my thinking flawed. My thinking comes from empirical fact. Whether or not the RX8 goes down that path remains to be seen and will have no bearing on the validity of what I have said.

man cant we all just get along? enough with these walls of text already.

That's that guy for you, Cooder.

So it's not pretend time anymore, where you pretend to be figuring me out while I remain clueless as to who you are? If you know knew exactly what zeitgeist is you wouldn't have improperly used it in the first place. You're reeling, earlier in this thread you believed the G35s "existence will insure that the RX8 continues to sell at a minimum level, which also means the rotary will continue" now it's "whether it's the RX-8 or another sports car".

You're again falling into the trap of the non causa pro causa, the RX-8 hasn't brought attention to other Mazda models, the fact that those other cars are good cars have brought their own attention. The Mazda 3 would sell just as well as it does if the RX-8 never existed. Stating your thinking comes from empirical fact does not make it cogent, show me these facts. All you have are whims and hypotheses, oh wait, you don't even have that, all you have is a simple belief that you've over thought in your twisted head.

It's simple, if the RX-8 makes money it continues on, if it loses too much money Mazda moves on.

I'm done with this, I've been here done this with you before and it's pointless debating a madman. Have fun in your little world and stay clear of me, I've had to deal with your shit for too long under your various forum names and I'm tired of it.

man cant we all just get along? enough with these walls of text already.

Do you realize who Cooder is Playdoh?

Reactionary for teh win!!11!!01!!
?

wtfm8?

LOL

http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?p=770841&postcount=27

You truly are absorbed with yourself. Your problem isn't just with me. It's all over in your other threads where I'm completely absent. You have a jealousy problem that centers on attention.

Instead of reading zeitgeist from a book, you need to fully understand it. To fully understand it, you have to show you can incorporate it flexibly, not rigidly according to a dictionary definition or google search. I deal with this sort of thing all the time. It's quite annoying. Rigidly, it refers to a set of conditions during a time. It is a passive, static word. However, a certain set of conditions at a certain time can allow certain things to take root and flourish, and this is what I mean by the right thing at the right time. These two ideas taken together describe the 350Z/G35 quite nicely. But it was still uncertain for the 350Z/G35, and not any equivalent sports car could have done it. This is not exactly the same as, for example, the formulation and acceptance of the Theory of Evolution by Darwin, which can be described neatly by Zeitgeist and someone was bound to do it (or if it wasn't Darwin, it would have been someone else). So I really should have invoked a third concept, the Chosen One. If you don't know how to work flexibly with concepts and can only take them at face "google/dictionary" value, then you don't truly understand how to apply them.

My argument has been that even if the RX8 doesn't make money, it may still get to move on. Let me also remind you that in my very first post responding to your rude response, I said that there is no guarantee that the forces I mention will come to fruition with the RX8. There will be many factors for the Mazda brass to consider, absolutely more than the one consideration you keep solely focusing on. One other factor I have already mentioned is the strength of the Miata to go it alone as the Mazda icon, like what the Viper did/does for Chrysler (Did the Viper make money for Chrysler?). So one such "other sports car" is the Miata. Or it might be another rotary car. Or it might be a Kabura-like car with or without a rotary. This is what I mean by whether it's the RX8 or another sports car. Many things can happen that fall right into my thesis. Nothing is guaranteed except that there will be many more considerations than just the one you mention. I guarantee you that. Many others agree with me in their posts. And I'm a madman for even starting this thread and presenting this idea? I would encourage you to learn and read more in the relevant areas. Some of your comments here and in other threads directed at other people are clearly show that you do not know the limits of your knowledge and that your focus is just to automatically counter whatever is said, no matter how clearly reasonable, by a person who is getting attention. This glamour queen thing you got is deep-rooted, and you suffer from it and make others suffer it in real life.

You are not a pleasant fellow and you continue to initiate vitriol with me and others. If you hadn't been ingratiating yourself to the people who run this place for so long, you would be banned.

Reactionary for teh win!!11!!01!!
?

AKA Shift Zoom 8, TyrellCorpRX8, and Sportura Collection, as well as some others I'm forgetting...

Ok, what does this have to do with the thread topic, which is totally legit and worthwhile? Jealousy is something you have to deal with elsewhere.

This thread was not started to attack you. Or to put you down personally. Think about that, Ike. Take a deep breath and let the ego ooze out.

Do you realize who Cooder is Playdoh?
I dont know who he is... all i know is hes not very good at debating...some of hes arguments are a mess of jumbled up sentences that goes all over the place. But i give him credit for his efforts in typing up 1 wall of text after another. eitherway im just saying... ive come to realize that in situations like this... anyone with half a brian can see who makes sense and who dosnt, so why fuel the fire? its just going to result in more walls of texts.

I dont know who he is... all i know is hes not very good at debating...some of hes arguments are a mess of jumbled up sentences that goes all over the place. But i give him credit for his efforts in typing up 1 wall of text after another. eitherway im just saying... ive come to realize that in situations like this... anyone with half a brian can see who makes sense and who dosnt, so why fuel the fire? its just going to result in more walls of texts.

You're not very good at analyzing debates....

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My wall of text is bigger than yours!!

Some people evidently are so smart that they can type a whole page and you still can't figure out what the hell they are trying to say.

Some people evidently are so smart that they can type a whole page and you still can't figure out what the hell they are trying to say.

Well said, speedERdoc...um, I mean trickshot.

Some people evidently are so smart that they can type a whole page and you still can't figure out what the hell they are trying to say.

Don't worry, "they" can't figure it out either so "they" just change what they're trying to say to something else "they" can't understand when it becomes clear their stance is weak. ;)

I really don't understand what the problem is. The RX-8 will be produced indefinitely because it handles so well in the twisties. Haha, I love that word.

Anyways, this whole thread is sorta founded on some dude trying to will the existence of the RX-8 into the future simply with fancy words and complicated logic. Now, I'm all for trying to impress random people on the Internet with fancy Latin words and math equations, but I think it can be summed up like this: people are spending lots of money on cars lately.

Maybe it's the baby boomers trying to relive their youthful days that they can't remember because they were too coked up the first time. Maybe it's the auto industry brainwashing us into thinking we'll be hunted down and "peppered" by Dick Cheney if we don't drop 30K on a car. Who gives a crap? In the end car companies will keep trying to make money and will almost certainly make faster, better cars for the foreseeable future. I would love to see Mazda make a new incarnation of the RX-8, but at this point it's all speculation.

Well said, speedERdoc...um, I mean trickshot.

Hey Cooder, remember those PMs you sent me a few weeks ago?

Woah.

But... those small Nissan trucks (Frontier?) are shit. My father is looking for a replacement for his ancient Toyota pickup (with over 200k mi and still going... but in need of retirement). He was checking out a 2004 or 2005 and was shocked at how cheap the thing was put together. We're talking about door panels flexing/denting from the passenger leaning on it during turns. Let's just say he crossed that truck off his list.

Ike, I have listed where you have backtracked and thought you could elude me. I have not backtracked anywhere, because I don't need to.

Many people have already agreed with me in their posts. That doesn't mean your simple idea of "if it sells, it lives" is completely wrong or insane. Even if the RX8 and rotary are axed, it doesn't necessarily mean you were right. Mazda would definitely have considered a lot of factors beyond simple RX8-only economics, even if it gets axed. What is clear, however, is the factors that I brought up are not insane but are quite reasonable, if more complex than people normally consider.

This thread topic is not about me or Ike. This is a worthwhile thread topic.

Woah.

But... those small Nissan trucks (Frontier?) are shit. My father is looking for a replacement for his ancient Toyota pickup (with over 200k mi and still going... but in need of retirement). He was checking out a 2004 or 2005 and was shocked at how cheap the thing was put together. We're talking about door panels flexing/denting from the passenger leaning on it during turns. Let's just say he crossed that truck off his list.

No fu#king kidding. And that's partly why the commercial and the background rock song "The best there ever was..." was so ridiculous. Yet the commercial won a 2002 Effie. The commercial was absolutely terrible and did nothing for Nissan sales as a whole. The award was a by-product of how shitty Nissan already was at that time and the scoring process. :hahano:

What is clear, however, is the factors that I brought up are not insane but are quite reasonable, if more complex than people normally consider.
Insane, unreasonable, and more complex than normal people consider.

And who is this speedERdoc you refer to? :hahano:

I am so mad that I just read this thread. Cooder, I will never forgive you for this. You insane ramblings are just an amalgamation of crap that is based in nothing but guesswork and trying to sound smart. Nothing you say can be proven because you just make these ridiculous claims like "the rotary could have been sent back into oblivion sooner if it hadn't of been for the 350Z". What kind of statement is that? It doesn't serve to do anything at all. You can't prove or disprove something like that.

You remind me of that dude in Good Will Hunting at the bar with the blonde hair who tries to impress the two girls by sounding all complicated. If you really care about this stuff, consolidate it down so that it fits into this setting. Maybe even go as far as to help someone with some useful information or personal experiences about the RX-8.

im just saying man, everyones entittled to their own oppinions. i might agree or i might not agree.. but when you debate over a topic, you want to send clear, concise and strong arguments. typing great walls of texts where youre just going all over the place dosnt make your argument strong. we dont even know what hes arguing about anymore.

I agree with cooder on his original post that rx8 will probably continue into next gen due to the healthy market segment - that dosnt justify all the other crazy ideas hes throwing around though.... And i agree with Ike's idea that if 350z/G35 didnt exist rx8 would probably sell more. makes sense. (Its not news that Ike can be rude sometimes.) Thats where it started to fall apart as cooder starts to talk about crazy stuff and make all kinds of claims... whatever good strong arguments he had just gets lost in the sea of jumbled ideas.
Then when u mix all that with personal attacks, the whole debate just becomes stupid.

Im going to ask everyone to step away from the keyboard and go for a drive. It will help remind you why we (and the 8 is here) :Peace:

To the original poster: "too long, didn't read"

but I did skim a little, and I think these are his points (?)

1) The RX-8 is a sort of "halo model" for the Mazda brand, as they say in the car biz, which buoys the value of the Mazda name. I think this is somewhat true. Without the RX-8 and Miata, you've got lots of restyled Fords. (The RX-8 not such an overpowering halo that they can afford to lose money on it though.)

2) The 350Z/G35 siblings are a halo model for the market segment as a whole, rubbing off even on non-Nissan brands of sporty cars. That's pure rubbish, of course.

People would still have a desire for cheap sports cars even if none were being produced. People still desired muscle cars, even though they were basically extinct from 1973~1993 or so. Millions of people strongly desire affordable antigravity hovercars, even though the market segment doesn't even exist yet.

You remind me of that dude in Good Will Hunting at the bar with the blonde hair who tries to impress the two girls by sounding all complicated. If you really care about this stuff, consolidate it down so that it fits into this setting. Maybe even go as far as to help someone with some useful information or personal experiences about the RX-8.

Good analogy, but you're a little bit off. I'm as close to Will as you'll ever find in real life. The blonde long-haired poser who likes to be the center of attention and doesn't know how average he is is Ike, without a doubt. You are Ben Affleck in the movie. Saturn, sometimes if you don't understand something, you may have to look at yourself.

I'm confident that most of the people visiting this thread will recognize the sound reasoning in my proposal. They will also recognize that what I propose is not designed to go against what Ike says but actually incorporates what he says. I firmly believe Ike has come to recognize this as well. To continue to strike my proposal down so definitively and absolutely is very dumb. So why does he do it? The answer is jealousy and ego and a penchant for Broadway center stage.

To the original poster: "too long, didn't read"

but I did skim a little, and I think these are his points (?)

1) The RX-8 is a sort of "halo model" for the Mazda brand, as they say in the car biz, which buoys the value of the Mazda name. I think this is somewhat true. Without the RX-8 and Miata, you've got lots of restyled Fords. (The RX-8 not such an overpowering halo that they can afford to lose money on it though.)

2) The 350Z/G35 siblings are a halo model for the market segment as a whole, rubbing off even on non-Nissan brands of sporty cars. That's pure rubbish, of course.

People would still have a desire for cheap sports cars even if none were being produced. People still desired muscle cars, even though they were basically extinct from 1973~1993 or so. Millions of people strongly desire affordable antigravity hovercars, even though the market segment doesn't even exist yet.

I like your summary.

I feel like you do in your first point. I'm crossing my fingers that Mazda will decide that the Miata is not a strong enough icon on its own and might need the RX8 to assist it, even though the RX8 sales are dropping steeply. A two-car icon tag team has not been seen before and I believe the concept is interesting. And even if the RX8 gets axed, I know Mazda has been considering this. Just because it hasn't been done before is no reason to strike the idea down completely and call me insane. I'm just hoping; I've made no definitive statements. Nissan's idea of a two-pronged attack using the Altima/Maxima tag team was not seen before either and is now seen as ingenious. Before that concept, no car was able to take away even a small piece of the Accord-Camry-Taurus monopoly. And as we know, the Altima became the star while the Maxima has been lackluster. But can you now backward deduce that the Maxima is just dead weight and they should have just replaced the Maxima with the Altima from the beginning? Although this conclusion may appear to be so simple and sound, it can not be made. The Maxima may have been critical to the Altima's success. Just step foot on a Nissan dealership and watch how the salespeople work the Altima/Maxima combo relentlessly into your brain. Watch how they work that double-edged concept to strike the Accord and Camry down. Although difficult to prove, there are reasons to believe the Maxima is integral to the Altima's marketing and sales outcomes. The anecdotal observation I gave is just one of those reasons. Plenty of shampoo and toothpaste and snack companies put out a variety of products in the same category. Should they highlight only their top icon product, spread the attention across multiple products, bring out new products to see if one rises to the top and becomes a new icon, or even use new products to bring back the luster of an aging icon? Carmakers are now using these models to think outside the box.

And it is fair to disagree with me on the second point. I'm more focused on the ability of the 305Z/G35 to keep the segment in the awareness of even average conservative adults (the mainstream customers) and drive the market segment longer than it would last without the Nissan combo even in the face of negative market forces. In an earlier post, I mentioned that none of the icons back in the 90's (RX7, 300ZX, Supra) was able to do that back then and thus all three went by the wayside in the face of negative market forces. You mentioned sports cars being extinct for a period of time even though consumers wanted them. Thus, it is a two-way street, because the manufacturers have to give the green light. Both sides of this equation are, in my opinion, more likely to continue because of the incredible success of the 350Z/G35.

What you do is fair and promotes the discussion.

The problem with the RX-7, 300ZX, and Supra was that they required turbos to make impressive power, which means big money that people didn't want to pay. The market was there all along (as the S2000, RX-8, and 350Z have proven); the car companies simply misjudged people's expectations on price/performance.

So basically I would argue that advancing technology has brought us this new crop of sports cars. First, they figured out how to build sports cars in a heavily regulated era (1973-onward), then they figured out how to make decent power without the expense of turbos in more recent years. It's like plasma TV's. Six years ago, $15,000...no one cares. Now, a 42" can be had under $2k. Technology brought the price down, but consumer demand was there all along.

You focus is on lowering price. Yet the Evo and WRX STI and RX8 are all in the same price category, yet none is doing close to the success of the 350Z/G35. Where would this market segment be with only the Evo, WRX STI, and RX8? It would be low sales, low mainstream awareness. The 350Z/G35 is a social phenomenon. These cars are in the minds of even housewives. It's the driving force of the entire segment. Because of its success, this segment is now larger, more salient in the mainstream public's mind, and will probably remain healthy longer.

And of course, anyone can disagree with what I just said.

Good analogy, but you're a little bit off. I'm as close to Will as you'll ever find in real life. The blonde long-haired poser who likes to be the center of attention and doesn't know how average he is is Ike, without a doubt. You are Ben Affleck in the movie. Saturn, sometimes if you don't understand something, you may have to look at yourself.

I'm confident that most of the people visiting this thread will recognize the sound reasoning in my proposal. They will also recognize that what I propose is not designed to go against what Ike says but actually incorporates what he says. I firmly believe Ike has come to recognize this as well. To continue to strike my proposal down so definitively and absolutely is very dumb. So why does he do it? The answer is jealousy and ego and a penchant for Broadway center stage.

The fact you compared yourself to a fictional character created for dramatic effect just confirms the fact you are trying to look smart. You have this victimized mentality of how the world perceives your awesome intellectual might and anyone who doesn't "get" you must be a moron who hasn't taken the time to find themselves.

I am all for discussing things just for the sake of discussing them, but your arguments are the ones soaked in ego and pretentiousness. You jumble all this stuff together and make so many claims that just have no basis in fact at all. Dammit, common sense is more than just some fallback mentality that inferior people use when they can't make logical arguments. You make no sense.

I really hope you are young. Because you're going to wake up one day and realize two things. One, don't do that. Two, you spent all this time trying to impress people into liking you that you coulda done for $4.50 at the local bar by buying someone a drink. Maybe your foster Dad beat you and that's why you turned out this way. But whatever it is, always remember, it's not your fault.

I don't know where you come from, but after the stuff you tried to pull on this forum, you'll bet I'll be checkin into it. You're suspect.

The fact you compared yourself to a fictional character created for dramatic effect just confirms the fact you are trying to look smart. You have this victimized mentality of how the world perceives your awesome intellectual might and anyone who doesn't "get" you must be a moron who hasn't taken the time to find themselves.

I am all for discussing things just for the sake of discussing them, but your arguments are the ones soaked in ego and pretentiousness. You jumble all this stuff together and make so many claims that just have no basis in fact at all. Dammit, common sense is more than just some fallback mentality that inferior people use when they can't make logical arguments. You make no sense.

I really hope you are young. Because you're going to wake up one day and realize two things. One, don't do that. Two, you spent all this time trying to impress people into liking you that you coulda done for $4.50 at the local bar by buying someone a drink. Maybe your foster Dad beat you and that's why you turned out this way. But whatever it is, always remember, it's not your fault.

I don't know where you come from, but after the stuff you tried to pull on this forum, you'll bet I'll be checkin into it. You're suspect.

Your viewpoint here and in your last post tell much about you. You want to attack me because you're annoyed at my fluency with words. Why not just focus on the substance of what I say, which is not very controversial in the least. When I present those ideas, it was not to criticize or attack someone else.

And this brings the point back to Ike and you.

Your viewpoint here and in your last post tell much about you. You want to attack me because you're annoyed at my fluency with words. Why not just focus on the substance of what I say, which is not very controversial in the least. When I present those ideas, it was not to criticize or attack someone else.

And this brings the point back to Ike and you.

The reason is because I feel like it's more beneficial to try and communicate the fact that you're coming across like a pompous ass than to discuss this topic. Feel free to disagree, but it was all meant to be helpful because I think you needed it. Also, I'm disappointed that you ignored my super clever GWH references. I'm funny dammit.

Your main point seems to be that the 350Z is this revolution that has awakened the world to the $30k sports car. I think this is total crap. This desire has always been there as evidenced by the entire history of the automobile. Nissan may have done it sooner, better, smarter, and/or cheaper, but I've wanted a sports car since I knew what one was. So do millions of other people. That's why these things sell. The advent of the ~$30k sports car is just an evolution of what people want and what the industry is ready to support. This is just obvious. The fact that Mazda wants to make money, whether it be by selling lots of cars or maintaining a good image so that it can sell cars for years to come, they want to make money. Every person and company has a slightly different way of going about that and trying to make these qualitative statements about the effect of the 350Z on Mazda like it's something that can be proven is retarded.

Again, if you had just made your point without being such an ass I may have just tossed in my two cents. Don't mistake my not stating my opinion for lack of having one.

Profit stalls at Nissan as its U.S. sales decline
By Kae Inoue Bloomberg News

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2006

U.S. sales fell 7.1 percent, while those in Japan fell 18.8 percent in the period.

Current profit, or pretax profit from operations, fell 0.3 percent to ¥209.8 billion, the company said.

The chief executive, Carlos Ghosn, is depending on the release of 22 new models over the next two years to revive demand in Nissan's two largest markets, the United States and Japan.

Nissan Leads Decline in Japan's January Vehicle Sales (Update2)

Feb. 1 (Bloomberg)

Nissan's sales fell for the fourth consecutive month in January. The carmaker's sales growth tapered off after its introduction of the Tiida compact car and five other models between September 2004 and January 2005.

Ford, DaimlerChrysler U.S. Sales Rise; Nissan Falls (Update4)

Feb. 1 (Bloomberg) -- Ford Motor Co. and DaimlerChrysler AG reported an unexpected increase in U.S. sales in January, while Nissan Motor Co. fell for the fourth straight month.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bwml/060201/15823.html?.v=1

INFINITI DIVISION SALES
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly
January January DSR CYTD CYTD CYTD DSR
---------------------------------------------------
2006 2005 % Change 2006 2005 % Change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Infiniti Division
Total 8,057 8,713 -7.5 8,057 8,713 -7.5
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I35 0 411 -100.0 0 411 -100.0
----------------------------------------------------------------------
G35 Sedan 2,425 3,212 -24.5 2,425 3,212 -24.5
----------------------------------------------------------------------
G35 Coupe 1,518 1,661 -8.6 1,518 1,661 -8.6



----------------------------------------------------------------------
Monthly
January January DSR CYTD CYTD CYTD DSR
---------------------------------------------------
2006 2005 % Change 2006 2005 % Change
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Nissan Division
Total 67,834 67,871 -0.1 67,834 67,871 -0.1
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sentra 9,807 8,177 19.9 9,807 8,177 19.9
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Altima 16,758 17,095 -2.0 16,758 17,095 -2.0
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Maxima 4,895 5,704 -14.2 4,895 5,704 -14.2
----------------------------------------------------------------------
350Z 1,770 1,728 2.4 1,770 1,728 2.4

The reason is because I feel like it's more beneficial to try and communicate the fact that you're coming across like a pompous ass than to discuss this topic. Feel free to disagree, but it was all meant to be helpful because I think you needed it. Also, I'm disappointed that you ignored my super clever GWH references. I'm funny dammit.

Your main point seems to be that the 350Z is this revolution that has awakened the world to the $30k sports car. I think this is total crap. This desire has always been there as evidenced by the entire history of the automobile. Nissan may have done it sooner, better, smarter, and/or cheaper, but I've wanted a sports car since I knew what one was. So do millions of other people. That's why these things sell. The advent of the ~$30k sports car is just an evolution of what people want and what the industry is ready to support. This is just obvious. The fact that Mazda wants to make money, whether it be by selling lots of cars or maintaining a good image so that it can sell cars for years to come, they want to make money. Every person and company has a slightly different way of going about that and trying to make these qualitative statements about the effect of the 350Z on Mazda like it's something that can be proven is retarded.

Again, if you had just made your point without being such an ass I may have just tossed in my two cents. Don't mistake my not stating my opinion for lack of having one.

I feel that many others will agree that I wasn't pompous, not even in the first few posts. You may find me wordy but the proposal I make is intriguing, not retarded. You are young so let me tell you that the proposal I make is very compelling and can serve as a compelling economics Ph.D. dissertation topic. I believe other people of qualified educational background will agree. In such a dissertation, you will not have to prove anything; you will only have to find support for your position. There is so much to investigate in this thesis. It's a very worthwhile topic. Don't you see that?

I also feel that many others will agree I was being attacked unfairly by Ike right off the bat. Thus, I have a right to respond, and I feel that I responded maturely. In addition, I feel that many others will agree that Ike's insistence on an all or nothing personal victory for RX8-only economics was stupid.

Nowhere was I being an ass. Actually, you were the ass when you came up with the Good Will Hunting metaphor, right? I took your metaphor and made some corrections but it's still your brainchild. Everyone who reads these posts will give you the credit, I assure you.

Zoom, the thing there is Nissan is not losing money. Their GROWTH or profits is just slowing down. I think they're still strong, especially with the advent of all those new models coming soon.

I feel that many others will agree that I wasn't pompous, not even in the first few posts. You may find me wordy but the proposal I make is intriguing, not retarded. You are young so let me tell you that the proposal I make is very compelling and can serve as a compelling economics Ph.D. dissertation topic. I believe other people of qualified educational background will agree. In such a dissertation, you will not have to prove anything; you will only have to find support for your position. There is so much to investigate in this thesis. It's a very worthwhile topic. Don't you see that?

I also feel that many others will agree I was being attacked unfairly by Ike right off the bat. Thus, I have a right to respond, and I feel that I responded maturely. In addition, I feel that many others will agree that Ike's insistence on an all or nothing personal victory for RX8-only economics was stupid.

Nowhere was I being an ass. Actually, you were the ass when you came up with the Good Will Hunting metaphor, right? I took your metaphor and made some corrections but it's still your brainchild. Everyone who reads these posts will give you the credit, I assure you.

Allright, this is pretty much not going anywhere. I don't know what kind of dissertation involves just speculating about things. There are so many complicated variables that most of this discussion, even if backed up with some statistics is going to be anecdotal at best. Let me know when Mazda calls you asking for you to come save their marketing/development department with your ideas.

I'm going to stay out of the middle of you and Ike. I wasn't really concerned with the way you responded to him.

I suppose I should amend my earlier statement about being an ass. You're going to come across a certain way to a lot of people. You can either accept that, disagree with it, or ignore it. But in the end it's all about what you're goal in this whole ordeal and life in general is. If it's an exercise in pontification then go for it. I don't know what your goal is so I suppose I can't really comment on whether or not you're succeeding at it. I sure hope you know because for my part it seems like you're trying to be overly complicated at the expense of others which makes you an ass.

Overcomplicated at the expense of others? You are clearly off the mark here.

My goal was stated early on. To give rotary enthusiasts like myself hope. I woke up that day (at the beginning of this thread) and I felt hopeful for the very first time about the survivability of the RX8 and rotary. Read the excitement in my tone in the first few posts. It's not about pontificating or proselytizing or instructing. That's something you need to analyze within yourself.

Without the RX-8 and Miata, you've got lots of restyled Fords. (The RX-8 not such an overpowering halo that they can afford to lose money on it though.)




MX-5 Mazda2 Mazda3 Mazda5 Mazda6 RX-8 upcoming CX-7 and CX-9 The new MPV.

Not one a re-badged Ford. Its the opposite really with Ford re-badging the 6 for their Fusion etc line and using the 6 platform to make the Ford Edge which is really just a CX-9. Ford just gets to deliver them first. they are all Mazda designed.

The tribute and truck we're the only Ford re-badges and Mazda wouldnt have them if Ford didnt twist the collective arm. In fact Tribute is dead now.

MX-5 Mazda2 Mazda3 Mazda5 Mazda6 RX-8 upcoming CX-7 and CX-9 The new MPV.

Not one a re-badged Ford. Its the opposite really with Ford re-badging the 6 for their Fusion etc line and using the 6 platform to make the Ford Edge which is really just a CX-9. Ford just gets to deliver them first. they are all Mazda designed.

The tribute and truck we're the only Ford re-badges and Mazda wouldnt have them if Ford didnt twist the collective arm. In fact Tribute is dead now.

I caught that, too, but decided not to say anything.

You are young so let me tell you that the proposal I make is very compelling and can serve as a compelling economics Ph.D. dissertation topic. I believe other people of qualified educational background will agree.


THAT is pompous. Not an attack on you. You didnt think you have been and im just saying that looks like what people are picking up on.

THAT is pompous. Not an attack on you. You didnt think you have been and im just saying that looks like what people are picking up on.

That's after his Good Will Hunting metaphor. :)

The metaphor was funny but I even had to correct him there. The blonde long-haired dude was regurgitating other peoples' ideas. That's what Will was putting back in his face. Will said he didn't have any of his own ideas, which is exactly the opposite of what I've done in this thread.

Saturn, dont even waste your time stepping down to his level.

MX-5 Mazda2 Mazda3 Mazda5 Mazda6 RX-8 upcoming CX-7 and CX-9 The new MPV.

Not one a re-badged Ford. Its the opposite really with Ford re-badging the 6 for their Fusion etc line and using the 6 platform to make the Ford Edge which is really just a CX-9. Ford just gets to deliver them first. they are all Mazda designed.

The tribute and truck we're the only Ford re-badges and Mazda wouldnt have them if Ford didnt twist the collective arm. In fact Tribute is dead now.

i definetly see mazda design influence on a lot of current and upcoming ford models. It seems ford is taking full advantage of the merger. I wouldnt mind possibly seeing mazda's own take on some of Fords successful models such as their trucks and the stang.

That's after his Good Will Hunting metaphor. :)

The metaphor was funny but I even had to correct him there. The blonde long-haired dude was regurgitating other peoples' ideas. That's what Will was putting back in his face. Will said he didn't have any of his own ideas, which is exactly the opposite of what I've done in this thread.


Im not attacking you, but I agree with Zoom. a lot of us think you look kind of silly. I have to disagree that you've brought anything new to the table. You've used fancy wording to pretty much say what a BAZILLION of us 8 owners kind of think- that the 8 willl do well.

Had you just said that, you'd be walking away with Apples, but instead you got nothin really but 8 pages of confusion. I studied Sociology and Economics at the graduate level, and I cringe upon the thought of this being a Thesis..

this is my opinion, and please don't give me a 8 paragraph response of more dinner party jargon. :Peace:

Almost no one in here thinks the RX8 will do well. We simply want it to survive. So that will have to be a BAZILLION minus one less than a BAZILLION.

My discourse is not confusing in the least. There's just a lot of it. Look how concise my spiel in your quote is. Look also at post # 103. If you notice sometimes I'll be redundant within a single sentence. I do this on purpose because I know there are a ton of different levels of background on this forum. I have seen confusion time and time again because someone was not precise in his language and others misinterpreted. Look at the front brake DIY and the confusion it caused me because of imprecise language without enough detail. Look at the thread where the guy didn't like how any of the aftermarket exhausts sound and then got jumped on by some people. I was the only one who recognized what he was really trying to say, and he thanked me for it. In fact, after I clarified for everyone what he was trying to say, a bunch of people actually agreed with his position.

Sometimes it's the writer's fault. Sometimes it's the reader's fault. Sometimes the writer recognizes the language issue and tries even harder to accommodate only to be lambasted for wordiness or pretentiousness. Sometimes a scientist puts together a ton of hardcore science, writes a book for the masses (that you can buy at Borders or Barnes & Noble), writes super carefully and detailed (wordy), and finds that the book ends up being misinterpreted anyway. It's unavoidable. But we still try to do the good work.

For this forum, I've done what I feel is necessary. To be super explicit, even if it means wordy and redundant. One thing you have to concede is I am able to say the same thing in many different ways across different posts, indicating I really understand what I'm trying to say. That core concept has been absolutely consistent and stable throughout, indicating the model I presented is able to accommodate many different responses.

You can infer whatever you want about my personality and I can respond. But you and some others insist on attacking my ideas as retarded. I'm sorry but I have to assert that only a retard would think that. Zoom and others of his level do not think my ideas are stupid and have made no comments to that.

Almost no one in here thinks the RX8 will do well. We simply want it to survive. So that will have to be a BAZILLION minus one less than a BAZILLION.

My discourse is not confusing in the least. There's just a lot of it. Look how concise my spiel in your quote is. Look also at post # 103. If you notice sometimes I'll be redundant within a single sentence. I do this on purpose because I know there are a ton of different levels of background on this forum. I have seen confusion time and time again because someone was not precise in his language and others misinterpreted. Look at the front brake DIY and the confusion it caused me because of imprecise language without enough detail. Look at the thread where the guy didn't like how any of the aftermarket exhausts sound and then got jumped on by some people. I was the only one who recognized what he was really trying to say, and he thanked me for it. In fact, after I clarified for everyone what he was trying to say, a bunch of people actually agreed with his position.

Sometimes it's the writer's fault. Sometimes it's the reader's fault. Sometimes the writer recognizes the language issue and tries even harder to accommodate only to be lambasted for wordiness or pretentiousness. Sometimes a scientist puts together a ton of hardcore science, writes a book for the masses (that you can buy at Borders or Barnes & Noble), writes super carefully and detailed (wordy), and finds that the book ends up being misinterpreted anyway. It's unavoidable. But we still try to do the good work.

For this forum, I've done what I feel is necessary. To be super explicit, even if it means wordy and redundant. One thing you have to concede is I am able to say the same thing in many different ways across different posts, indicating I really understand what I'm trying to say. That core concept has been absolutely consistent and stable throughout, indicating the model I presented is able to accommodate many different responses.

You can infer whatever you want about my personality and I can respond. But you and some others insist on attacking my ideas as retarded. I'm sorry but I have to assert that only a retard would think that. Zoom and others of his level do not think my ideas are stupid and have made no comments to that.

anidiotsayswhatdoesthatsay?


keep your points brief. thats all i was saying for you to do. You keep saying you're saying new things that are earth shattering enough to be a Thesis. All you're 'REALLY' saying past the dinner party jargon is that you think the 8 can do well if a few things happen. someone call CNN wow, what breaking news.

Again, no apples for you my friend.

You can infer whatever you want about my personality and I can respond. But you and some others insist on attacking my ideas as retarded. I'm sorry but I have to assert that only a retard would think that. Zoom and others of his level do not think my ideas are stupid and have made no comments to that.

Listen, the whole "retard" comment wasn't supposed to be taken literally. I'm just trying to say that what you're saying seems overly complicated to the point of being unusable information. I'm starting to think you may mean well and that you truly believe everything you're saying. But you came across like you thought you were better than everyone else and there's plenty of statements in this thread that make me think that.

I personally think you could do very well to just chill out a little bit with the wordy language especially on this forum. Just an idea.

anidiotsayswhatdoesthatsay?


keep your points brief. thats all i was saying for you to do. You keep saying you're saying new things that are earth shattering enough to be a Thesis. All you're 'REALLY' saying past the dinner party jargon is that you think the 8 can do well if a few things happen. someone call CNN wow, what breaking news.

Again, no apples for you my friend.

Apparently you're not really a rotten apple, just a really dull one. :mdrmed:

I never said that I think the RX8 can do well if a few things happen. No one else in here has said that. I and others simply hope it will survive. You may need to eat more of your apples and ginseng. :hahano:

Come on, Dinh, let's stop this. Help me to help you put a stop to the damage you're doing to yourself. This is very unbecoming of the graduate degree you obtained in Economics and Sociology. I'm serious. I want to focus on the topic.

Cooder you need to take english 101. Using a few sophiscated words dosnt necessarily make an argument strong when the argument it self is a jumbled mess of silly claims. trying to look smart with such weak level of writing ability only serve to make a fool out of your self. any 8th grader can goto www.thesaurus.com and look up a few fancy words.

Besides... real smart people dosnt need to use fancy words to show that they are smart. Using a bunch of fancy words with so little to show for just comes across as fake and shallow and arrogant instead of smart. language is created to communicate between people so they can understand each other. your pathetic attempt to look smart manages to accomplish the opposite effect because you suck at communicating.

ex·plic·it Audio pronunciation of "explicit" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-splst)
adj.

1.
1. Fully and clearly expressed; leaving nothing implied.
2. Fully and clearly defined or formulated: “generalizations that are powerful, precise, and explicit” (Frederick Turner).

you have not been explicit at all, your fancy wording dosnt make your aruments explicit when you are using those fancy words to make retarded claims. you look like a fool to us. And just because Zoom havnt made any comments dosnt mean he dosnt think you sound retarded. thats just yet another example of your unfunded claims.

Instead of writing another 8 paragraph wall of text, how about you just think about what makes an argument effective and how to best communicate in a clear manner? Its great to be wordy, but when you are trying to wordy, at least try to say something meaningful instead of making your retarded claims.

anidiotsayswhatdoesthatsay?


keep your points brief. thats all i was saying for you to do. You keep saying you're saying new things that are earth shattering enough to be a Thesis. All you're 'REALLY' saying past the dinner party jargon is that you think the 8 can do well if a few things happen. someone call CNN wow, what breaking news.

Again, no apples for you my friend.

cooder, im going to have to disagree with you now, ive read the majority of this thread, and you are just digging yourself a deeper hole. by overwhelming logic and common sense i need to agree with some of your protesters, all you're doing is making fuzzy points through large disorganized walls of jargon. in fact dnhx8 started off with his post saying "im not attacking you" and on his last line says something along the lines of "please dont type up an 8 paragraph response" and in the next post you give him exactly what he told you not to do(it was good advice too-to be more to the point and concise) and you just keep on typing up useless bandwidth wasting posts that are so long and disorganized even if you had something good to say, it wouldn't matter because its lost in your fuzzy logic and disorganization.

Trust me, playdoh, zoom doesn't think I'm retarded. I am able to infer his intellectual level and he is able to infer mine. And I am able to infer that he is able to infer mine.

Playdoh, your post above is one of the best I have ever seen on this forum. I would like to print it out as a keeper. Oh my God, it's truly awesome!

But seriously, your points are all 100% valid and well taken. I will try to improve in the areas you point out.

cooder, im going to have to disagree with you now, ive read the majority of this thread, and you are just digging yourself a deeper hole. by overwhelming logic and common sense i need to agree with some of your protesters, all you're doing is making fuzzy points through large disorganized walls of jargon. in fact dnhx8 started off with his post saying "im not attacking you" and on his last line says something along the lines of "please dont type up an 8 paragraph response" and in the next post you give him exactly what he told you not to do(it was good advice too-to be more to the point and concise) and you just keep on typing up useless bandwidth wasting posts that are so long and disorganized even if you had something good to say, it wouldn't matter because its lost in your fuzzy logic and disorganization.

I see your point and must agree with you completely. I now realize that when other people attack me, I can not respond or at least can not respond with too many words.

Zoom and others of his level

i dont know about my "level". i did a pretty good job of making an ass out of myself yesterday


And just because Zoom havnt made any comments dosnt mean .

Excellent point. I havent made a comment in support or against the "meat" of your position, Cooder. But neither have most. Most seem to be concerned about your delivery and not so much the message. Although i have to say that, in general, I understand what you'r saying ( i havent read every post) but dont agree with the starting point. I dont agree that the nissan coupes drive the segment. Im not even sure the RX-8 is in the same segment as the Nissan's.

i dont know about my "level". i did a pretty good job of making an ass out of myself yesterday




Excellent point. I havent made a comment in support or against the "meat" of your position, Cooder. But neither have most. Most seem to be concerned about your delivery and not so much the message. Although i have to say that, in general, I understand what you'r saying ( i havent read every post) but dont agree with the starting point. I dont agree that the nissan coupes drive the segment. Im not even sure the RX-8 is in the same segment as the Nissan's.

And this is where we can have a good discussion. Actually Zoom, some people have agreed with me on that point, that the 350Z/G35 drives the market segment. And the debate over what car is in what segment has been hashed enough on this forum. Even if the segments are not perfectly the same, you must agree there is perceptual overlap. Regardless, all this is up for a good healthy debate. Attacking my idea as retarded, which is what many people did, isn't a healthy debate. I just wanted to get some brainstorming and ideas going in this forum. Nothing in my initial post suggests my intent was to sucker people or pull them in and push it back in their faces. Some of these people consciously decided to start that up.

I see your point and must agree with you completely. I now realize that when other people attack me, I can not respond or at least can not respond with too many words.

i'm extremely suprised you agree with me, its good to see you understand what light im bringing to the table, with that there is a miscommunication happening and i think more people would understand and side with you if you were clearer. i think because of the medium that we are debating on(an online forum) simple to the point messages are better because the more you type, the more your point is open to misinterpretation because of too many moving parts, like the simpler your car is the less goes wrong, ie honda civic, and the more moving parts you have ie. rx7 fd3s the more there is to go wrong.

i'm extremely suprised you agree with me, its good to see you understand what light im bringing to the table, with that there is a miscommunication happening and i think more people would understand and side with you if you were clearer. i think because of the medium that we are debating on(an online forum) simple to the point messages are better because the more you type, the more your point is open to misinterpretation because of too many moving parts, like the simpler your car is the less goes wrong, ie honda civic, and the more moving parts you have ie. rx7 fd3s the more there is to go wrong.
that was sarcasm buddy

And this is where we can have a good discussion. Actually Zoom, some people have agreed with me on that point, that the 350Z/G35 drives the market segment. And the debate over what car is in what segment has been hashed enough on this forum. Even if the segments are not perfectly the same, you must agree there is perceptual overlap. Regardless, all this is up for a good healthy debate. Attacking my idea as retarded, which is what many people did, isn't a healthy debate. I just wanted to get some brainstorming and ideas going in this forum. Nothing in my initial post suggests my intent was to sucker people or pull them in and push it back in their faces. Some of these people consciously decided to start that up.

Oh I don't know about that.

I don't personally consider the 350Z and RX-8 competiton... a 2 seater and a 4 seater... while both are sports cars and some enthusiasts would cross-shop them... I wouldn't. I don't do two seaters. That same kind of thing would apply to the general public for various reasons as well. As for the G35c... it is both more expensive and is a "luxury" sports car competing with BMW, Audi, Lexus, stc.

While the 350Z/G35 may not be (is not likely) the driving force in the sports car market, I will say that the idea that the overal market trend helps to carry along the RX-8 and makes a case for Mazda having a product to offer in that market segment (even if it is not a big seller... that is just reason to redesign or market better).

Cooder, your circuitous ramblings are fraught with fallacy. With each passing post, the ubiquitous crazy that befouls your psyche becomes more and more evident. Big words, yet you and everyone else here understands what I just said, that would be the difference in our discourse. Mine also isn't painfully drab to read, but I digress.

I've come across your kind many times before, simply because you use some big words does not make your argument any more valid, nor does it make your intellect any greater. In order to have your vocabularly mean anything you must be able to present a proper argument. One with facts to back up it, one that is both clear and concise, you fail on all counts. Simply because someone agreed with you at some point in this thread does not make your argument any more valid or cogent. Simply stating something is true because it's true does not make it so. You are a legend in your own mind, a hero of community college lounges and philosophy 101 students everywhere.

You are not the misunderstood genius you fancy yourself to be, you're the poor soul that worries about sounding smart moreso than being smart. Do yourself a favor and take a logic course, if you can ever grasp it then come see me. Til then, sell crazy some place else, we're all full up here.

"Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feeling for the strength of their argument. The heated mind resents the chill touch and relentless scrutiny of logic."

William E. Gladstone

You know what they say about people who quote famous people? Unfortunately for you Ike, you had to run into me. Every response I make to your posts makes your heart jump and makes you angrier and more jealous. Your first few posts are all anyone has to read to recognize you have lost the debate. Without a doubt. Your obfuscation didn't succeed in obfuscating.

I encourage any person new to this thread to just go over Ike's first few posts. That's all it will take.

You know what they say about people who quote famous people? Unfortunately for you Ike, you had to run into me. Every response I make to your posts makes your heart jump and makes you angrier and more jealous. Your first few posts are all anyone has to read to recognize you have lost the debate. Without a doubt. Your obfuscation didn't succeed in obfuscating.

I encourage any person new to this thread to just go over Ike's first few posts. That's all it will take.

I'm not angry nor jeaous, what possible reason would I have to be either? Thank you for yet another fallacy laced response, and for making my quote all the more appropriate.

Hey, I've just reviewed the entire first page where I have 7 posts. I can't see any bit of arrogance or pretentiousness in any of the posts. All I see is a genuine effort to present an intriguing idea and, after that, a genuine attempt to address responses with a lot of effort. My responses contain no hint of superiority or arrogance. I'm totally focused on the topics.

The only oddball there is Ike's post. What a surprise. Even then you could sense his personality disorder was going to lead him past the point of no return. Who would imagination, including himself, that the idea that he is intelligent would be so quickly and definitively lost?

haha, he is Ike, he always wins arguements :rolleyes: he usually means well though even when he is a jackass(which is about 75% of the time)

i agree he did come off harsh and mildy offensive at first but he has a lot of valid points.

Hey, I've just reviewed the entire first page where I have 7 posts. I can't see any bit of arrogance or pretentiousness in any of the posts. All I see is a genuine effort to present an intriguing idea and, after that, a genuine attempt to address responses with a lot of effort. My responses contain no hint of superiority or arrogance. I'm totally focused on the topics.

The only oddball there is Ike's post. What a surprise. Even then you could sense his personality disorder was going to lead him past the point of no return. Who would imagination, including himself, that the idea that he is intelligent would be so quickly and definitively lost?

Yes, who would imagination that!

haha, he is Ike, he always wins arguements :rolleyes: he usually means well though even when he is a jackass(which is about 75% of the time)

i agree he did come off harsh and mildy offensive at first but he has a lot of valid points.

I came off harsh because I knew exactly who I was dealing with, the same nutjob I've been dealing with on these forums for countless months. The name may have changed, but the wearisomely verbose presentation was distinctly familiar. Look at me, I can use big words! :dunce:

I came off harsh because I knew exactly who I was dealing with, the same nutjob I've been dealing with on these forums for countless months. The name may have changed, but the wearisomely verbose presentation was distinctly familiar. Look at me, I can use big words! :dunce:

Again, I would encourage you to reread every post I made on the front page. There's no fatal flaw in the thinking or the personality. The wordiness is from a genuine attempt to describe an idea fully so that it would not be misinterpreted.

As most people in this forum know, your quote fits yourself perfectly. You are unable to maintain attention on the topic because of your personal resentment, which you confuse with reason. You do this to everyone, but you especially lose your senses with me, probably because unconsciously you know the mountain you face is insurmountable, at least for you. Your insane rigidity with the RX8-only economics as the only possibility not only clearly reveals your incompetence to even the simplest observer but also betrays the degree of intellectual fear you have for me.

Again, I would encourage you to reread every post I made on the front page. There's no fatal flaw in the thinking or the personality. The wordiness is from a genuine attempt to describe an idea fully so that it would not be misinterpreted.

As most people in this forum know, your quote fits yourself perfectly. You are unable to maintain attention on the topic because of your personal resentment, which you confuse with reason. You do this to everyone, but you especially lose your senses with me, probably because unconsciously you know the mountain you face is insurmountable, at least for you. Your insane rigidity with the RX8-only economics as the only possibility not only clearly reveals your incompetence to even the simplest observer but also betrays the degree of intellectual fear you have for me.

I would rather gouge my eyes out with a spork than have to read your posts more than once. They're painfully obtuse thoughts with an excessive amount of drivel. As for the rest of your post, I can't get the image of Mike Tyson telling me his style is impetuous out of my head.


P.S. As I've pointed out to you many times in the past, repeating the same thing over and over again does not make what you say any more true.

I would rather gouge my eyes out with a spork than have to read your posts more than once. They're painfully obtuse thoughts with an excessive amount of drivel. As for the rest of your post, I can't get the image of Mike Tyson telling me his style is impetuous out of my head.


P.S. As I've pointed out to you many times in the past, repeating the same thing over and over again does not make what you say any more true.

So you think my intent is to repeat everything over and over? Of course you don't. What you see is a genuine attempt by me to re-illustrate my position in response to subsequent posts. That is my only intent.

I have now reviewed the entire first 4 pages and I've found nothing arrogant or pretentious aside from your posts. Absolutely nothing questionable about my personality. Only a genuine effort to focus on the topic.

Throughout the thread, I see attempt after attempt by you to create trouble, to attack me personally.

Some naive members have even followed your "lead" with critical posts whose whole reasoning is basically that if I weren't so wordy, then people wouldn't think my ideas were retarded.

All this negativity because I'm wordy?

So you think my intent is to repeat everything over and over? Of course you don't. What you see is a genuine attempt by me to re-illustrate my position in response to subsequent posts. That is my only intent.

I have now reviewed the entire first 4 pages and I've found nothing arrogant or pretentious aside from your posts. Absolutely nothing questionable about my personality. Only a genuine effort to focus on the topic.

Throughout the thread, I see attempt after attempt by you to create trouble, to attack me personally.

Some naive members have even followed your "lead" with critical posts whose whole reasoning is basically that if I weren't so wordy, then people wouldn't think my ideas were retarded.

All this negativity because I'm wordy?

Not because you're wordy, because you fail to make strong arguments yet you ramble on anyhow. Being wordy while you ramble just makes your posts more annoying. Off to bed, I'll read whatever thoughts you decide to repeat tomorrow.

you guys are still going at it. Close this thread already its not going any where.

Not because you're wordy, because you fail to make strong arguments yet you ramble on anyhow. Being wordy while you ramble just makes your posts more annoying. Off to bed, I'll read whatever thoughts you decide to repeat tomorrow.

Obviously, this is not true. I have indeed made strong arguments. There is nothing do or die about what I have said. I don't overcommit and I'm not too narrow or too definitive. There really is not too much that is controversial in what I said.

I believe that your rambling succeeded in riling up some people who didn't know better. And that's all you succeeded in doing. Your simplistic tunnel vision on RX8-only economics as the only possibility is dumb. I am certain you do not continue to believe that's the only factor Mazda is considering. You continue on this slant solely because you don't want to concede anything to me, not because of sound reasoning but because of stubborn, blind ego. Think about this one. Read the posts on page 1 and 2 and you will see every person basically agreeing with my position and no one agreeing with your position. However, that doesn't mean you're wrong; you could actually be the only correct person. Until one absorbs all our positions and realizes that it does make sense, that there could be many factors deciding whether the RX8 continues. Thus, the only explanation to your strangely stubborn position is that I really got to your head. Clearly, you are afraid of me and my intellect. Why wouldn't you adjust your rigid stance just a little and concede that all those peoples' ideas couldn't be totally wrong?

Not a single other person has reiterated your strangely narrow position. Many people have provided slants that are consistent with my premise. Even many of the ones that try to state some fault or qualification with what I said then proceed to agree with my basic premise that the RX8 doesn't have to necessarily sell well to continue. Certainly, your keen mind didn't miss that? Shall I list every single one of them for you? Hey, can you find a single post that agreed with your idea that it's as simple as if the RX8 doesn't sell, it's gone?

Once again, very early on, you lost this debate, and you know it. The hilarious distractor about the Nissan ads really made you regret your actions there. This topic really knocked you off kilter, as you had no idea I could come back with so much detail. So that's 0 for 2, Ike. And you know it. Everyone in here knows it.

When are you going to beat me in a debate, Ike? Just once, offer some sort of real challenge. I'm waiting for the Ike that puts so many other members in their place and gloats about it, prancing around the forum like an Olympic gold medal ice dancer. It appears however, with me, you just end up huffing and puffing.

Work on the intellect, Ike. Then come back and challenge me again. I'm frankly getting a little annoyed and bored because it seems you have a memory problem. Fortunately, every single post is archived here for everyone to witness. You lost your argument in the first two pages, my jealous friend.

because you fail to make strong arguments yet you ramble on anyhow.

:hahano: You must be a politician in training. I just had an ingenious idea. I have a very logical proposition for you, my stellar friend.

(1) Provide evidence that the ONLY factor (for Mazda) whether or not the RX8 continues is if it sells.

(2) List down every single point I make that is weak and explain why it's weak.

See, Ike, this is a controlled experiment, in a sense. Do you see the elegance and logic of such a controlled debate "forum"? I'm sure you do. You won't be able to wiggle.

Ok, you're up to bat. Remember, you can only bat for one team. What's cool is you may refute my statements or support your own statements by citing/quoting other peoples' posts in this very thread! We already have so many posts, which, it occurred to me, are almost like citable reearch articles.

In such a controlled environment, it won't take long, believe me. Hopefully you got a good night's sleep when you wake up and see this so your heart won't jump out of your chest.

You do understand how it would look to the other members if you ran away from the debate challenge, right? I know you won't run away because you are confident in your intellect and the reasoning behind your position.

Cooder, there is gotta be something wrong with you. I mean, what the hell.

I just reread Ike's comments from the first few pages. I don't understand where you get this whole "RX-8 must sell or die" thing. I agree with everything he says: the 8 would sell better if it weren't for the 350Z, the average consumer doesn't understand the 8 (low torque and bad gas mileage), the sales for the 8 are dropping (I have exact numbers if you want em), the car is regularly bashed by many other car enthusiasts because of its weirdness/uniqueness, the RX-8 isn't a halo car (the MNAO president said so), and I (as well as just about everyone else) would love for the RX-8 to stay around and get some more power.

There's nothing wrong or attacking about what he's saying. Before he'd even made a second post, you'd thrown down the word "Zeitgeist" -- you didn't deserve even one nice response to that kinda BS. I understand what Ike is saying. You ramble on about things that are so obvious that everyone already knows -- yes, automobile economics are multi-faceted and complicated.

Nissan has found a way to tap into that market with the rebirth of their Japanese muscle car, the Z. It has a long history and old people have lots of money to throw away. They've sold 1.5 MILLION of these things. Mazda has to find a way to make money no matter what. They're not going to do it with their current iteration of the 8 even if they sell it for 20 more years.

There's one more thing that I'll agree with Ike on:

Not because you're wordy, because you fail to make strong arguments yet you ramble on anyhow. Being wordy while you ramble just makes your posts more annoying.

This isn't a debate. This is an exercise in futility.

Cooder, would it take you 8 paragraphs to tell us all to f*ck off?


If so, please do so and end all our misery. You've made this thread a pile of shit...oops, let me translate for you "feces".

You focus is on lowering price. Yet the Evo and WRX STI and RX8 are all in the same price category, yet none is doing close to the success of the 350Z/G35. Where would this market segment be with only the Evo, WRX STI, and RX8? It would be low sales, low mainstream awareness. The 350Z/G35 is a social phenomenon. These cars are in the minds of even housewives. It's the driving force of the entire segment. Because of its success, this segment is now larger, more salient in the mainstream public's mind, and will probably remain healthy longer.

And of course, anyone can disagree with what I just said.

The Evo and STi are fast but too ugly. The RX-8 is sexy but too slow. The S2000 is a hot little car and somewhat quick, but too impractical for many. The 350Z/G35 simply managed to hit squarely in the middle of what the average consumer wanted.

With only the Evo, STi, and RX-8 there might be low sales...because these cars are not exactly what people are looking for. Not because a 350Z wasn't there to cast a glow on the whole segment. Somehow I can't imagine this scenario:

(average guy shopping for cars)

2001: You know, sports cars in general are not desireable or sexy. It's not that no one's building a good, cheap sports car, oh no--I think the sports car segment is simply uninteresting. I think I will be looking at sedans.

2006: You know, that sexy little 350Z didn't just change my mind about Nissans. Now I can see that sports cars are desireable after all.

You do understand how it would look to the other members if you ran away from the debate challenge, right? I know you won't run away because you are confident in your intellect and the reasoning behind your position.

I had a hard time getting through your whole post so I skipped to the end, I didn't bother with the one above much either. I'm fully aware how it will look, they will rejoice because I'm going to spare them the boredom. I won't waste any more of my time on you, I've made strong arguments throughout this post. You can continue to be the genius you know you are and thinking you won some debate when you barely even made an argument. See, we're all happy! :Freak_ani

Din , Ike and Saturn re- consider your participation in this thread.

Din , Ike and Saturn re- consider your participation in this thread.

I already have, see my post above. :beer05:

Seems like the thread has run its course anyway.

Din , Ike and Saturn re- consider your participation in this thread.

i thought it was a thesis not a thread. ...

j/k, understood zoom.

I just saved lots of money on my car insurance by switching to geico

The Evo and STi are fast but too ugly. The RX-8 is sexy but too slow. The S2000 is a hot little car and somewhat quick, but too impractical for many. The 350Z/G35 simply managed to hit squarely in the middle of what the average consumer wanted.

With only the Evo, STi, and RX-8 there might be low sales...because these cars are not exactly what people are looking for. Not because a 350Z wasn't there to cast a glow on the whole segment. Somehow I can't imagine this scenario:

(average guy shopping for cars)

2001: You know, sports cars in general are not desireable or sexy. It's not that no one's building a good, cheap sports car, oh no--I think the sports car segment is simply uninteresting. I think I will be looking at sedans.

2006: You know, that sexy little 350Z didn't just change my mind about Nissans. Now I can see that sports cars are desireable after all.

Now this is fair. You say somehow you can't believe that the Nissans would cast a glow on the entire market segment. Similarly, when I bring up the intriguing idea and ask the question "COULD the Nissans really cast a glow on the entire segment?", it doesn't mean it's a fact. It's simply an intriguing idea and has led to further discussion. I have come up with several examples of supporting (although not proving) observations. Incredibly, I have even tried to show that some peoples' responses in opposition can actually be seen as consistent (without putting them down personally). Some people have agreed. Others have disagreed. Where is the controversy? I'm simply trying very hard to promote a good discussion.

Where is the challenge and the arrogance? Where is the poor thinking? I haven't proven anything and others haven't proven anything (even the many whose arguments are basically in agreement). I've tried very hard to come up with points. Some others have also. If their thinking is not poor, neither is mine. Those criticisms are ludicrous and are really coming from a limited number of individuals who have their own agendas. A couple of others I believe are serious, mature professionals who may have gotten suckered in a little by the pernicious agenda of one defeated individual.

The whole first page is all it takes to vindicate me. Even if the initial posts were wordy, they were not confusing. They are not designed to confuse people but in fact the opposite, to reduce confusion. They are not written in super concise scientific format but rather in an easy conversational style. In my opinion, as I review and review them, they are very digestible. Remember, I'm the one who came up with this multifacted idea, and so I'm the one who had to try to illustrate it to a bunch of people the best I can. It's not an easy task. There are a few lines of reasoning (some connected, others not really) and even though it's a limited number, it isn't easy for ANY reader to absorb and organize the entire thing. It would have been difficult for both sides regardless. Why attack me? Just try to figure it out the best you can or even ask me questions to clarify. Doesn't that make good sense? When I pick up someone else's research article to review, it's never super easy to understand. I have to put a lot of effort and reread and reread and try to pick up what they REALLY intended to say. Reviewers make a ton of suggestions but I've never felt compelled to say a lab's work and ideas are stupid. I think any profesional here can relate to that in their own arenas.

Din , Ike and Saturn re- consider your participation in this thread.

Thanks. I was just about to ask a moderator to put a stop to those exact three people, plus to a lesser extent playdoh. There's no justification for what they were doing.

Zoom must have had a premonition or gut feeling. Or maybe he's psychic like you are. :)

Thanks. I was just about to ask a moderator to put a stop to those exact three people, plus to a lesser extent playdoh. There's no justification for what they were doing.

I don't think you quite understood the purpose of Zoom's post.

Psychic people should always get straight As, I would think.

careful with your language Cooder. No need to respond to them any more since they have left the thread. keep to the point.

Well I wish you would put that post back up (along with some edits of words like bonehead and mouseketeers) because it shows that two of the people who keep attacking me are doing so based on inaccurate facts where they didn't even get straight who said what.

Dear Cooder,

I think the rx8 will do well so long as rotary development continues, which is the most important factor in driving its future.

okay sweet, now that i got that out I can continue:

I did actually respond (page 2 or something) actually to offer my opinion on the sucess of the car. I only responded to you after your posts seemed arrogant
claiming worthy of PHD status.

Don't be so upset. no one here really is. I'm not. I was giving you a tip in my first post to you, to say, you don't need fancy words to prove a point. I ended that post with the PEACE smiley in which you proceeded to attack me with more. Don't be that cheesy guy at the 'dinner party'. That was all my advice was.

LYLAS, have a great summer, hope we can be friends and have more classes together next year.
DinhX8

Psychic people should always get straight As, I would think.

Doc, my point is that the vast majority of human beings look to place blame outside of themselves. Early on in college, I came to reverse the viewing lens, that it is my responsibility to get everything out of those courses and textbooks.
Doesn't matter how bad, boring, wordy, or pretentious the professor is. Doesn't matter how poorly written (I think) the textbook is. If there are notes to be taken and books to be read, I'll take care of my end. So many poor students with the basic ubiquitous personality flaws would come to me and complain about everyone and everything but themselves and then ask me what my secret was. I told them go to every class and read every page and then reread every page until you understood everything. Look at yourself. Don't worry about the professor or the book. It is up to you to not let yourself down. No shortcut secrets.

In any class in which you didn't get an A, was it your fault or was it the professor's or the book's? At one point in here, with that group of haters, this fitting analogy occurred to me.

mod edit- post deleted

Your post, coming from a person who can truly relate, heartens me.

Cooder first of all your pathetic writing skills is not even close to being professional, children in 6th grade can write more coherently than you.

A. that's enough from you. if you cannot dicuss his views without personal attacks you do not belong in the thread. thats a warning.

Second - be careful what you say. Dont be so sure about who's "writing skills" are better. of the 2 "scores" im attaching your's is the lesser

Cooder- once more- do not respond to the personal attacks. it only prolongs the arguement and obfuscates the discussion

2nd warning playdoh- stay on topic

oh well, looks like funs over :) back on topic

yikes.
somehow i read through this whole thread. i must be bored.

i have to say i agree with cooder a bit about the rx-8 surviving as long as other cars continue to carry it. it does seem to me that mazda isnt too worried about the rx-8's sales, but likes to use it as more of a novelty figurehead. although, they might try advertising and a little more public exposure if thats true.

anyway, now that im here at the end of the thread i forgot what i was really going to say. but, im sure it wasnt important or interesting.

yikes.
somehow i read through this whole thread. i must be bored.

i have to say i agree with cooder a bit about the rx-8 surviving as long as other cars continue to carry it. it does seem to me that mazda isnt too worried about the rx-8's sales, but likes to use it as more of a novelty figurehead. although, they might try advertising and a little more public exposure if thats true.

anyway, now that im here at the end of the thread i forgot what i was really going to say. but, im sure it wasnt important or interesting.

Thanks for showing up, Mercury, and supporting my basic premise like so many have.

It's really not very confusing or controversial, as 3 or 4 boneheads on their own agendas have tried to make it. One person wanted so much to knock me off my "pedestal" that he was driven to push the ridiculously narrow and stupid idea that the ONLY factor Mazda considers is if the RX8 sells and if it doesn't it's gone! In REAL intellectual life, human beings need to learn to focus on the substance and topic, not on personal competition or jealousies. The latter will only cause you to come up with lines of "reasoning" that defy common sense, thus making you look stupid.

i'm extremely suprised you agree with me, its good to see you understand what light im bringing to the table, with that there is a miscommunication happening and i think more people would understand and side with you if you were clearer. i think because of the medium that we are debating on(an online forum) simple to the point messages are better because the more you type, the more your point is open to misinterpretation because of too many moving parts, like the simpler your car is the less goes wrong, ie honda civic, and the more moving parts you have ie. rx7 fd3s the more there is to go wrong.

Actually the less you type, the more it is open to interpretation. The difference is in the reader. The less you type, both dummies and smart people can come up with different interpretations of the same language. The more you type, only the dummies will tend to misinterpret and the smart ones will self-adjust in a process basically known as concept formation. Don't dummies try to read textbooks and still get bad grades? I guess it's the author of the textbook's fault.