I have seen some new dynos of the Si and it looks like they get more power to the wheels then our cars. eek :Eyecrazy:

And it weighs less than the 8.....

Don't worry, I drove one and it's slower then the 8.

...and its a Honda.

...and body roll is huge.

The Si only puts out 197 at the crank. Dynos are not always accurate and should only be used as starting point for mods on your car. I do like the looks of the Civic. Alot of car for the money.

...and body roll is huge.


Huger than a stock rx8?

yep hugest

Go test drive one. You won't feel any confidence at all in the corners.

oh god... never believe a dyno sheet from a civic website

...and its a Honda.

:wallbash: Which means....? Better overall quality, reliability, and value retention? Those seem to be all great brand traits to me.

I have seen some new dynos of the Si and it looks like they get more power to the wheels then our cars. eek :Eyecrazy:

It's about the same maybe a touch more, just like the RSX Type S so on a dyno 190whp is probably about right.

yep hugest

Go test drive one. You won't feel any confidence at all in the corners.

You must have driven one without the tire package and be confusing soft sidewalls with excessive body roll. The new SI is getting .9+ on the skidpad and perfect scores in fun to drive and handling from C&D as well as other pubilications

You must have driven one without the tire package and be confusing soft sidewalls with excessive body roll. The new SI is getting .9+ on the skidpad and perfect scores in fun to drive and handling from C&D as well as other pubilications


maybe, I didn't check the tires that were on there. I was actually dissapointed with the power more then anything. I thought it would pull harder then it did. Also, ever since honda gave up on the double wishbone setup, I just don't feel comfortable cornering in these fwd cars.

A friend of mine at work just got his and let me take to the airport about an hour ride so i had a few miles to work with. it's not as fast as a stock mt8 but i have to say great car! and you know it will be easy to make very fast.

:wallbash: Which means....? Better overall quality, reliability, and value retention? Those seem to be all great brand traits to me.

Not in my experience, nor my friend (who is a Honda fan).

Another Honda brand trait... 99% of their cars are FWD. :puke:

I have seen some new dynos of the Si and it looks like they get more power to the wheels then our cars. eek :Eyecrazy:Not more than mine does :)

And besides, they are putting the HP to the wrong set of wheels. :icon_tdow

:wallbash: Which means....? Better overall quality, reliability, and value retention? Those seem to be all great brand traits to me.
I agree, there is nothing wrong with the vehicles that Honda makes. Take a look at the S2000 and NSX.

And like a typical Honda, cheap mods can make it faster than stock.

its a good car no doubt about it but even if its faster than the rx8(which its not) its still not a sports car and can never do what the 8 can. not bashing it just stating an obvious concrete fact that for 18k you're not going to be killing 350zs as some make it out to.

its a good car no doubt about it but even if its faster than the rx8(which its not) its still not a sports car and can never do what the 8 can. not bashing it just stating an obvious concrete fact that for 18k you're not going to be killing 350zs as some make it out to.

No one is making it out to be a Z killer. Also it traps just as high and if the RSX Ype S is an indication a little higher than the RX-8. So technically it's just as fast as the RX-8 it's just not as quick because from a dig it's down on traction due to the FWD.

I don't think it's as light as you all may think. I redlined 1,2,3 and it felt very slow for 200hp....It doesn't even feel as fast as an integra gsr.

I don't think it's as light as you all may think. I redlined 1,2,3 and it felt very slow for 200hp....It doesn't even feel as fast as an integra gsr.

2860 is what C&D claims for weight, not bad by modern standards but a good bit heavier than the older tegs and SI. I haven't driven one so I can't comment on how fast it feels but the numbers don't lie.

well yes that sounds about right. It's wayyy heavier then it should be. YOu should go drive one and get back. Id be interested in what you think. I'm also a bit skeptical about this 190 whp. I'd like to see the dyno. I was actually excited to drive it and it just didn't impress me like I thought it would.

190whp is extremely mischevious

190whp is extremely mischevious

Not really, plenty of 05+ RSX Type S' have dynoed around or over 180whp, they also can get up to 15whp from an intake. So a generous dyno, factory freak, slightly better intake system for the SI, or uncorrected numbers and "almost 190whp" isn't a problem.

well the k20 in the type S is also tuned more than a civic si because it is the sportier of the two id say a legit SAE corrected run would yield 170whp. whatever it is though, its not 190, if that was the case the si would HAVE to be faster than the rx8 because it has a weight and potentially(assuming it actually does make 190 hp) a hp advantage it would need to be faster. thats 28xx vs 31xx in weight and 190 vs 175 in hp, and that should yield a noticable peformance difference.

also i remember supporting the fact that type S's get 15+whp on intakes and you bashing me on that calling bullshit maybe a year ago for some reason... and now because motor trend said "t3h new si r0xx0rz!!11un0" you suddenly are giving hondas the one up?

I agree, there is nothing wrong with the vehicles that Honda makes. Take a look at the S2000 and NSX.

Notice how you only referred back to their RWD cars... haha.

Notice how you only referred back to their RWD cars... haha.

lol xD


seriously though, you'd be suprised how formidable the 2nd gen crx and the EG hatchback can be stripped swapped built and boosted. sub 2000 pounds plus 350hp to the wheels will put down most "sports cars" to shame

the integra GSR/Type R and RSX type S get honorable mention for good performance platforms too IMO for being FWD.

Our cars can be stripped, swapped, built and boosted too.
Just need some engine bay fabrications here and there to fit the 13B-REW and boost it and we can do the exact same thing. AND our cars will be RWD.

Haha. But, FWD and RWD are totally different. So I'm comparing two totally different animals. >.<

lol xD


seriously though, you'd be suprised how formidable the 2nd gen crx and the EG hatchback can be stripped swapped built and boosted. sub 2000 pounds plus 350hp to the wheels will put down most "sports cars" to shame

the integra GSR/Type R and RSX type S get honorable mention for good performance platforms too IMO for being FWD.

very true.

You just can't recover a fwd car like rwd or awd. Sure they handle great until you pass the limits and then you're in trouble.

Our cars can be stripped, swapped, built and boosted too.
Just need some engine bay fabrications here and there to fit the 13B-REW and boost it and we can do the exact same thing. AND our cars will be RWD.

Haha. But, FWD and RWD are totally different. So I'm comparing two totally different animals. >.<

you just do that and everyone will make bets on how much money you spend on that project. buildling up a motor that literally NO ONE IN THE WORLD has done yet and boosting a new motor that only a handful of people have done. and somehow developing a standalone engine management system, and the fabrication for the subframe for that piece of shit 13b-rew(who the fuck would put that in an rx8 anyway besides that idiot rod millen) motor.

point in case, its not practical you'd be set back 30 grand doing that to an rx8, i can strip, swap build and boost you a eg hatch for 7k.

very true.

You just can't recover a fwd car like rwd or awd. Sure they handle great until you pass the limits and then you're in trouble.

youd be suprsied how well some well done fwd can be but yes you are 100% correct in stating in the end rwd is superior once the limits of the FWD near



RWD is probably overall the best for handling although AWD is good but in a different way and FWD not being bad if you put work into it and have the right car.

well the k20 in the type S is also tuned more than a civic si because it is the sportier of the two id say a legit SAE corrected run would yield 170whp. whatever it is though, its not 190, if that was the case the si would HAVE to be faster than the rx8 because it has a weight and potentially(assuming it actually does make 190 hp) a hp advantage it would need to be faster. thats 28xx vs 31xx in weight and 190 vs 175 in hp, and that should yield a noticable peformance difference.

also i remember supporting the fact that type S's get 15+whp on intakes and you bashing me on that calling bullshit maybe a year ago for some reason... and now because motor trend said "t3h new si r0xx0rz!!11un0" you suddenly are giving hondas the one up?

The '05+ RSX Type S has put down around 180whp plenty of times on various dynos. Also, the engines are prettymuch the same so don't let the manufacturers numbers fool you. Just doing a quick search on Club RSX showed a couple threads where the new SI is getting 190+ on dynapacks (pretty generous dynos).
All reports thus far seem to indicate the Civic SI is putting down a little more power than the Type S. Here's a quote from a thread on vtec.net/RSX Club

"The lowest curve, 197.9 hub hp, was recorded in completely stock trim after a few runs. We think this is more representative of what our car will do. The next run, 204 hub hp, was recorded with a little cool down. Note that the biggest difference occurs from 7500 rpm on up. The final run of 209 hp was recorded with the airbox cover off (note the bottom end losses). While the car gets much noisier and loses the refined growl of the stock intake system, the 5+ hp gain indicates that an intake system will probably be able to pick up some noticeable power (do not drive with the cover off, with the hood closed, you'll kill power by ingesting hot air from the engine bay).

Now take a look at the AF ratios. Note how smooth they are. Also note that they are relatively close to the optimal range of 12.5-13:1. Finally, note that on most runs, with the exception of our stock 204 hp run, that the AFR goes very rich after 7000-7500 rpm.



We think there are a couple factors at play here. First of all, either Honda has underrated the new K20Z3, or we have a ringer. On the same dyno, a stock 05 RSX (rated at 210 hp on the old system) will put down around 185 hub hp. The best one we ever did (another preproduction car) put down 190 hub hp. Given how strict the new ratings systems are, we suspect we have a ringer, but we'll wait to see what other gains we get, and what production cars do. If you live in SoCal, we'll do free dynos for the first 3 production Si's that come in (310-518-4966)."

If I gave you shit about the intake before I don't remember doing so, but I'm old and forgetful. Sorry if I was harsh, I just didn't realize until recently that the newer Hondas got those kind of gains from just an intake. I've never been much of a Honda guy, never will be, but the new SI is a pretty cool little car. I'm sure I'll feel differently when pimple faced kids start pulling up to me in their SI with I/H/E thinking they can smoke me.

ROTFLMAO... those "pimple faced kids" wish...

you just do that and everyone will make bets on how much money you spend on that project. buildling up a motor that literally NO ONE IN THE WORLD has done yet and boosting a new motor that only a handful of people have done. and somehow developing a standalone engine management system, and the fabrication for the subframe for that piece of shit 13b-rew(who the fuck would put that in an rx8 anyway besides that idiot rod millen) motor.

point in case, its not practical you'd be set back 30 grand doing that to an rx8, i can strip, swap build and boost you a eg hatch for 7k.

Hey I was just saying we could do the same. You never said anything about the price so... :dunno:
And I believe that's what they did for the JIC RX-8.

Don't get so defensive when I'm only trying to build up a discussion here. Haha, you'll get haters. :)

The '05+ RSX Type S has put down around 180whp plenty of times on various dynos. Also, the engines are prettymuch the same so don't let the manufacturers numbers fool you. Just doing a quick search on Club RSX showed a couple threads where the new SI is getting 190+ on dynapacks (pretty generous dynos).
All reports thus far seem to indicate the Civic SI is putting down a little more power than the Type S. Here's a quote from a thread on vtec.net/RSX Club

"The lowest curve, 197.9 hub hp, was recorded in completely stock trim after a few runs. We think this is more representative of what our car will do. The next run, 204 hub hp, was recorded with a little cool down. Note that the biggest difference occurs from 7500 rpm on up. The final run of 209 hp was recorded with the airbox cover off (note the bottom end losses). While the car gets much noisier and loses the refined growl of the stock intake system, the 5+ hp gain indicates that an intake system will probably be able to pick up some noticeable power (do not drive with the cover off, with the hood closed, you'll kill power by ingesting hot air from the engine bay).

Now take a look at the AF ratios. Note how smooth they are. Also note that they are relatively close to the optimal range of 12.5-13:1. Finally, note that on most runs, with the exception of our stock 204 hp run, that the AFR goes very rich after 7000-7500 rpm.



We think there are a couple factors at play here. First of all, either Honda has underrated the new K20Z3, or we have a ringer. On the same dyno, a stock 05 RSX (rated at 210 hp on the old system) will put down around 185 hub hp. The best one we ever did (another preproduction car) put down 190 hub hp. Given how strict the new ratings systems are, we suspect we have a ringer, but we'll wait to see what other gains we get, and what production cars do. If you live in SoCal, we'll do free dynos for the first 3 production Si's that come in (310-518-4966)."

If I gave you shit about the intake before I don't remember doing so, but I'm old and forgetful. Sorry if I was harsh, I just didn't realize until recently that the newer Hondas got those kind of gains from just an intake. I've never been much of a Honda guy, never will be, but the new SI is a pretty cool little car. I'm sure I'll feel differently when pimple faced kids start pulling up to me in their SI with I/H/E thinking they can smoke me.

and yet on an SAE certified dyno it only puts up 190 at the crank... so in conclusion :boring:

Here is the dyno sheet. I guess there wasnt enough torque to make it on the sheet though. jk :)

THat is a pathetic dyno sheet....wtf????

The '05+ RSX Type S has put down around 180whp plenty of times on various dynos. Also, the engines are prettymuch the same so don't let the manufacturers numbers fool you. Just doing a quick search on Club RSX showed a couple threads where the new SI is getting 190+ on dynapacks (pretty generous dynos).
All reports thus far seem to indicate the Civic SI is putting down a little more power than the Type S. Here's a quote from a thread on vtec.net/RSX Club

"The lowest curve, 197.9 hub hp, was recorded in completely stock trim after a few runs. We think this is more representative of what our car will do. The next run, 204 hub hp, was recorded with a little cool down. Note that the biggest difference occurs from 7500 rpm on up. The final run of 209 hp was recorded with the airbox cover off (note the bottom end losses). While the car gets much noisier and loses the refined growl of the stock intake system, the 5+ hp gain indicates that an intake system will probably be able to pick up some noticeable power (do not drive with the cover off, with the hood closed, you'll kill power by ingesting hot air from the engine bay).

Now take a look at the AF ratios. Note how smooth they are. Also note that they are relatively close to the optimal range of 12.5-13:1. Finally, note that on most runs, with the exception of our stock 204 hp run, that the AFR goes very rich after 7000-7500 rpm.



We think there are a couple factors at play here. First of all, either Honda has underrated the new K20Z3, or we have a ringer. On the same dyno, a stock 05 RSX (rated at 210 hp on the old system) will put down around 185 hub hp. The best one we ever did (another preproduction car) put down 190 hub hp. Given how strict the new ratings systems are, we suspect we have a ringer, but we'll wait to see what other gains we get, and what production cars do. If you live in SoCal, we'll do free dynos for the first 3 production Si's that come in (310-518-4966)."

If I gave you shit about the intake before I don't remember doing so, but I'm old and forgetful. Sorry if I was harsh, I just didn't realize until recently that the newer Hondas got those kind of gains from just an intake. I've never been much of a Honda guy, never will be, but the new SI is a pretty cool little car. I'm sure I'll feel differently when pimple faced kids start pulling up to me in their SI with I/H/E thinking they can smoke me.

who the fuck is on your screen name because they're too reasonable to be ike :mdrmed:

kidding aside, i cant believe the Si can lay down more than the Type-S!!! i never would have guessed...im a big type S fan and what letdown that is to hear.

anyways its good to hear you're coming to your senses about this, i assume your car is at least lightly modified and an i/h/e Si would be decimated by even a stock gdb in real life no matter how much whp those big headed honda guys claim to put down on overly generous dynometers. the real test is the only one that matters and thats how your car performs on the track and street, and a civic Si wont be eclipsing the performance of the rwd and awd japanese performance cars even if its putting out 190 horsepower.

Hey I was just saying we could do the same. You never said anything about the price so... :dunno:
And I believe that's what they did for the JIC RX-8.

Don't get so defensive when I'm only trying to build up a discussion here. Haha, you'll get haters. :)

the only hater here would be me, i actually own a really healthy 13brew that puts out 300 to the wheels with bolt ons and tuning. look at this thing

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y137/StealthFox/IMG_0002.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y137/StealthFox/rx7andrx8.jpg

that will chew you up and spit you out into a bloody pulp of matter

that will chew you up and spit you out into a bloody pulp of matter

And then POP!!!! I hope you have a 24hr tow truck # for that BEAST :mdrmed:

:D good thing i actually know how to check my coolant and oil so that wont happen :mdrmed:

who the fuck is on your screen name because they're too reasonable to be ike :mdrmed:

kidding aside, i cant believe the Si can lay down more than the Type-S!!! i never would have guessed...im a big type S fan and what letdown that is to hear.

anyways its good to hear you're coming to your senses about this, i assume your car is at least lightly modified and an i/h/e Si would be decimated by even a stock gdb in real life no matter how much whp those big headed honda guys claim to put down on overly generous dynometers. the real test is the only one that matters and thats how your car performs on the track and street, and a civic Si wont be eclipsing the performance of the rwd and awd japanese performance cars even if its putting out 190 horsepower.

Uhh, I drive an Evo now, and no it's not stock. I should have a dyno sheet on Thur. :)

whaa, i guess i havent been keeping up to date, is it an 8 or 9?

Yeah thats what they all say....lol

so have you finished with your gravedigging rampage or are you still going strong?

yeah for now.......The funny part is when ppl post in them thinking they are new threads.

I hope you were entertained;)

lol i was, and about half of rx8club who got annoyed with your posting in those threads, haha but whatever it was mildy refreshing to see some of those threads with ike getting owned out of his ass. :mdrmed: :mdrmed:

yeah, I racked up 100 posts that day. A personal record.

haha but whatever it was mildy refreshing to see some of those threads with ike getting owned out of his ass. :mdrmed: :mdrmed:


Don't get me started again......I feel the itch coming on. :Eyecrazy:

Yeah well i'll race you all with my Porsche!!!....kidding.

Yeah well i'll race you all with my Porsche!!!....kidding.

Bring it porky! :lol:

Yeah well i'll race you all with my Porsche!!!....kidding.

haha you mean that v6 rabbit motored toureg? sure bring it on. i'l start from 5th gear to make it intresting :rock:

I do not believe the 190 whp for one simple, obvious reason. The car was rated at 200 hp originally. Just like any other manufacture, this number was used because it was a nice round number. Then under the new dyno procedure (can’t remember what it’s called) the car's rating dropped to 197 hp. This number doesn't look good from a marketing stand point. If the motor was really making more power, there is no way that Honda would willingly advertise 197 hp instead of 200 hp.

Well Look at the SRT4 when it came out originally, It was advertise as 215 hp. dynos where showing about that at the wheels if not more. Later on Dodge raise the HP #. Maybe Honda wants to keep the # there because it might hurt sales on the RSX.

BTW people get over it, there are cars out there that are shity but still faster than the 8, we don't own the fastest car on the planet, but we own the most unique one though!!!!

I do not believe the 190 whp for one simple, obvious reason. The car was rated at 200 hp originally. Just like any other manufacture, this number was used because it was a nice round number. Then under the new dyno procedure (can’t remember what it’s called) the car's rating dropped to 197 hp. This number doesn't look good from a marketing stand point. If the motor was really making more power, there is no way that Honda would willingly advertise 197 hp instead of 200 hp.

Its not a dyno standard. You are referring to the new SAE standard for measuring HP.

Its not a dyno standard. You are referring to the new SAE standard for measuring HP.
Yes you are correct. I should have proof read my post. :)

Its not a dyno standard. You are referring to the new SAE standard for measuring HP.

Which is pretty much just some guy standing around watching them do the testing. If the SI made more horsepower than teh RSX would you advertise if if you were Honda? I sure wouldn't, you should hear the RSX guys grumbling about the new SI as it is.

Which is pretty much just some guy standing around watching them do the testing. If the SI made more horsepower than teh RSX would you advertise if if you were Honda? I sure wouldn't, you should hear the RSX guys grumbling about the new SI as it is.
I thought the new test procedure required actual production exhaust instead of just mock-ups.

Well Look at the SRT4 when it came out originally, It was advertise as 215 hp. dynos where showing about that at the wheels if not more. Later on Dodge raise the HP #. Maybe Honda wants to keep the # there because it might hurt sales on the RSX.

BTW people get over it, there are cars out there that are shity but still faster than the 8, we don't own the fastest car on the planet, but we own the most unique one though!!!!

yeah now that you mention that, it puts things more into perspective on why they're advertising at 200hp when its obviously making more than that by the 100% accurate 190whp claims.

I thought the new test procedure required actual production exhaust instead of just mock-ups.

The way I understand it SAE tsnadard testing has been around for years, but it's not becoming the norm and now they're sending out engineers to witness the testing. Still plenty of wiggle room in the system it would seem.

Talk about deja vu...

Remember this thread...

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=72643&highlight=civic+dyno

The way I understand it SAE tsnadard testing has been around for years, but it's not becoming the norm and now they're sending out engineers to witness the testing. Still plenty of wiggle room in the system it would seem.

SAE has always been the standard, but they did change the actual rules because the previous rules had some points that were open to interpretation. many japanese companies took advantage of that to arguably overate their engines. The new rules are much stricter. SAE was the old standard and SAE NET is the new system with the new rules. thats my understanding of the situation.

I was also expecting the SI to be a little quicker than it was. If that car is 6.6-6.8 to 60 with a clutch drop then there is NO DOUBT that a stock 8 will be sub 6. In comparsion it felt gutless, sounded nice when VTEC kicked in but yeah didn't feel as quick as an old COUPE si. Another thing i'm 6'6" I looked like a reject in it and didn't fit that well either. The Great Mutato designed the interior and the nav was much harder to use than mine, I drove with all seasons and it felt tippy so Darkmanz could be feeling that? For FWD I thought it handle decent. UMMM all in all I guess I don't think it dyno's that high either?

there are different dyno standards not to mention different types of dynoes... dyno numbers are also easy to manipulate. unless they have something else that ran on the same dyno under similar conditions to compare against the si, it dosnt really say much. we can just look at magazine 0-60 and 1/4 times.

Well Look at the SRT4 when it came out originally, It was advertise as 215 hp. dynos where showing about that at the wheels if not more. Later on Dodge raise the HP #. Maybe Honda wants to keep the # there because it might hurt sales on the RSX.

BTW people get over it, there are cars out there that are shity but still faster than the 8, we don't own the fastest car on the planet, but we own the most unique one though!!!!

The SRT4 original rating was before the new SAE system was adopted - so they could advertise any amount they wanted as long as it was at least 85% of the actual rating.

The new system they have to advertise what the dyno showed while the SAE witness was there. The Si dropped from 200hp to 197hp and the RSX-S went from 210hp to 201hp. You must now advertise what it made no matter what.


the tests are also now witnessed, they are run with all accesories, they have full exhaust systems, they can not be using fans to draw a vacuum on the exhaust, or using all the other devilish things various manufacturers were coming up with to win the horsepower war.

The SRT4 original rating was before the new SAE system was adopted - so they could advertise any amount they wanted as long as it was at least 85% of the actual rating.

The new system they have to advertise what the dyno showed while the SAE witness was there. The Si dropped from 200hp to 197hp and the RSX-S went from 210hp to 201hp. You must now advertise what it made no matter what.


the tests are also now witnessed, they are run with all accesories, they have full exhaust systems, they can not be using fans to draw a vacuum on the exhaust, or using all the other devilish things various manufacturers were coming up with to win the horsepower war.

Don't forget it's still voluntary, manufacturers don't have to use the new SAE system.

Don't forget it's still voluntary, manufacturers don't have to use the new SAE system.

Honda/Acura is.....

Of course the Si feels slow.. its honda!!
But then again, 190whp isn't bad at all.
At least honda didnt' lie about their hp.

the new system is mandatory for any new/redesigned cars. companies can use the old system for existing models.