Mazdaspeed 6 4th place? Feb Car & Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=10515)
It was the best performer but they thought it was too harsh.

Mazdaspeed 6 4th place? Feb Car & Driver (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=10515)
It was the best performer but they thought it was too harsh.

I read that too....ridiculous!! I've usually respected C&D, but sometimes they make me scratch my head. Those of you who've read C&D for years: remember when BMW would always win comparos like these?? yes, they had pretty austere content compared to the competitors, but the performance and driving substance always won out!! *now* they're doing another *sports sedan* comparo, and all the performance gets relegated to an afterthought??? whaaaattt??

It's not like the MS6 is a K-Mart special or anything. perfectly functional and clean interior, perhaps a tiny notch down from the Jetta. I took a long test drive in the MS6 while my '8 was getting prepped @ the dealer; great power delivery and road manners. I *almost* changed my mind about getting the '8! :naughty:

some talk about it in the "miffed at ms6" thread http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=76937&page=11&pp=15

The Mazdaspeed 6 is a nice car that can't quite decide what it is and what cars it wants to compete with. Throw it in a comparo like this C&D one and it'll get knocked for being "too firm, unpolished, with a low-rent interior". Toss it in a comparo with an STI and an Evo and it'll get knocked for being sluggish, not having enough roadfeel, and in general not being up to the task performance wise. It just can't win either way.

I read that too....ridiculous!! I've usually respected C&D, but sometimes they make me scratch my head. Those of you who've read C&D for years: remember when BMW would always win comparos like these?? yes, they had pretty austere content compared to the competitors, but the performance and driving substance always won out!! *now* they're doing another *sports sedan* comparo, and all the performance gets relegated to an afterthought??? whaaaattt??

It's not like the MS6 is a K-Mart special or anything. perfectly functional and clean interior, perhaps a tiny notch down from the Jetta. I took a long test drive in the MS6 while my '8 was getting prepped @ the dealer; great power delivery and road manners. I *almost* changed my mind about getting the '8! :naughty:


Now you know how g35 and 350z owners feel when magazine rate the rx8 higher :cwm27:

Road & Track put it up against 6 other AWD sport sedans, and they didn't seem to like it, either. 5th place out of 7, behind the Subaru Legacy 2.5 GT Spec B, Audi A4 2.0T Quattro, BMW 325xi, and Lexus IS 250 AWD. It did beat out the Infiniti G35x and Volvo S40 T5 AWD. It was the second slowest on the auto-x course, ahead of only the IS 250 (and we know what the result would have been had it been the IS 350).

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929826

The Mazdaspeed 6 is a nice car that can't quite decide what it is and what cars it wants to compete with. Throw it in a comparo like this C&D one and it'll get knocked for being "too firm, unpolished, with a low-rent interior". Toss it in a comparo with an STI and an Evo and it'll get knocked for being sluggish, not having enough roadfeel, and in general not being up to the task performance wise. It just can't win either way.

That's what they get for not putting a turbo on the 3.0 liter Mazda 6S.

So, that would solve the low-rent interior, harsh ride comments?

Turbo 4 is much better marketing wise than a turbo 6.

It probably is too firm at it's weight... Whatever they did to make it weigh 3600 lbs. I don't know, but that is the center of most of it's troubles. To compensate for all that bulk, they probably had to over-stiffen the suspension just to keep it from feeling like an Explorer in the corners. Lose the heft, and they'll have a more competitive vehicle.

And what's with the interior? Is it not the same as all the other current Mazda products? Mazda has some of the nicest interiors around...

The interior is better than the other 6 models, IMO The weight came from the addition of AWD and chassis re-enforcements, body bracing, etc.

I do agree...the car should be lighter.

Did you folks notice on GLARING fact about the Road and Track test? The MS6's trap speed was only EIGHTY-SIX MPH. Something was SERIOUSLY wrong there... C&D had the car trap TEN mph faster. 86mph? That's what a Mazda3S traps at. I wonder if they had 87 octane fuel in the car for their test?

Also, the Mazdaspeed 6s that was tested in C&D was the non GT package - no sunroof, leather, and other amenities hence the unpolished low-rent interior. At least be consistent with the cars tested!

Did you folks notice on GLARING fact about the Road and Track test? The MS6's trap speed was only EIGHTY-SIX MPH. Something was SERIOUSLY wrong there... C&D had the car trap TEN mph faster. 86mph? That's what a Mazda3S traps at. I wonder if they had 87 octane fuel in the car for their test?

They make note of it in the R&T article. They were in California, so they used 91 octane. They also note that the intercooler ducting is poorly designed. Notice that it took 24 seconds 0-100?

If this car runs like crap on 91 octane, then Mazda will have a serious problem selling these, since many states only have 91 as their highest octane.

Out of all of them it was easily the best look and had the most grunt. I prefered the interior on the Pontiac though. The others just looked a bit bland.

They make note of it in the R&T article. They were in California, so they used 91 octane. They also note that the intercooler ducting is poorly designed. Notice that it took 24 seconds 0-100?

If this car runs like crap on 91 octane, then Mazda will have a serious problem selling these, since many states only have 91 as their highest octane.


I'm convinced I'll never buy a new Mazda again. I'm SO tired of Mazda's bullshit HP numbers. 274 on 93 octane +. Who can get 93 Octane where I live? Those who drive to the track and get 100 octane, or drive to Canada.

you could get 94 up here DMP. :D:

there is no magical octane detector in the engine or PCM. They are running over 15lbs of boost. That makes alot of heat and can cause knock with lower quality fuel. the pcm cuts boost when it detects knock. then its just a normal 4 cylinder lugging around alot of extra weight. but it does make the power. the cooling/intercooler is just not up to the task. they should have done a better job with that.

for the CX-7 they turned the boost down so it only makes 244 but doesnt have the heat/knock issues.

Now you know how g35 and 350z owners feel when magazine rate the rx8 higher :cwm27:


lol.. tru.

each car has its own character that defines it...

magazines are only a matter of personal opinion... professional ( iguess. :cwm27: )

So what's with Mazdas and their turbos lacking proper cooling?

So what's with Mazdas and their turbos lacking proper cooling?

Mazda seems to struggle whenever they turbo a car. If they ever get their act together they could make some scary good cars. The MSP, MSMiata, and MS6 have all been good cars but nothing spectacular and not very tuner friendly. The FD is damn good but is a reliabilty nightmare.

Mazda seems to struggle whenever they turbo a car. If they ever get their act together they could make some scary good cars. The MSP, MSMiata, and MS6 have all been good cars but nothing spectacular and not very tuner friendly. The FD is damn good but is a reliabilty nightmare.


It's as if Mazda is affraid to shine. They make a product which is 4/5ths of Perfect, then cut the HP down. They seem to think having less power automatically makes the car handle better.

(shrug).

It's as if Mazda is affraid to shine. They make a product which is 4/5ths of Perfect, then cut the HP down. They seem to think having less power automatically makes the car handle better.

(shrug).

Well, there seems to be some truth to that. It seems when they start upping the power in their cars they struggle a bit with handling dynamics, the MSMiata and MS6 are perfect examples of that.

I want people that just call cars like the Evo and STI econoboxes with a bunch of mods thrown on to take a close look at how some higher tuned existing models turn out from other companies. It's damn tough to make cars as good as the STI and Evo, throwing a bunch of performance parts on an existing platform doesn't mean it's going to be a better car.

Well, there seems to be some truth to that. It seems when they start upping the power in their cars they struggle a bit with handling dynamics, the MSMiata and MS6 are perfect examples of that.

What's so wrong w/ the MSMiata? The NC has +/- the same power and drives like a dream (so I've read). Power isn't the problem - it's mazda's willingness to engineer the car for more power. Make any sense?

I want people that just call cars like the Evo and STI, just econoboxes with a bunch of mods thrown on. It's damn tough to make cars as good as the STI and Evo, throwing a bunch of performance parts on an existing platform doesn't mean it's going to be a better car.

You want people for what?

I'd say people who say 'econobox with mods' are autosport-immature. 'Course the interior of the Evo is pretty nasty/cheap - that said, I'd seriously consider the car if/when I lost my rx8.

:)

What's so wrong w/ the MSMiata? The NC has +/- the same power and drives like a dream (so I've read). Power isn't the problem - it's mazda's willingness to engineer the car for more power. Make any sense?



You want people for what?

I'd say people who say 'econobox with mods' are autosport-immature. 'Course the interior of the Evo is pretty nasty/cheap - that said, I'd seriously consider the car if/when I lost my rx8.

:)

Edited...

Many people are and were disappointed with how soft the suspension is on the MS Miata, some complained that they didn't tweak the suspension enough to make up for the added power.

So what's with Mazdas and their turbos lacking proper cooling?


thats the big money question right there. maybe they got rid of the people who made the past mistake so no one there learns from their mistakes?

thats the big money question right there. maybe they got rid of the people who made the past mistake so no one there learns from their mistakes?

Do you think it would have heat problems if Mazda had gone with a more conventional front mount or side mount intercooler? I was kind of thrown off when I first read that the MS6 had a top mount; putting an intercooler right on top of the hot exhaust manifold and over the hot turbo without much space for airflow underneath didn't make a whole lot of sense to me then and still doesn't now. This setup may have cut down on lag, but having to pull boost after a few hard runs sounds like a much worse situation than a little bit more lag would've been. A front/side mount may have also let them use a smaller, lighter hood and have saved a few pounds on the fairly heavy car.

I've had a subscription to C&D for 12 years. In their comparison they'll say at the beginning exactly what the point of the comparison is.....the most uncompromised car, or the best all around performer, or whatever. Yet, their point scales is the same regardless of what the particular comparison is focused on.

What is with the narrow tires 215/45 18, 234/45 17 would be better.
What is with the engine revving to 7000 with peak power at 5000.

With direct injection, how much benefit would be had from a front mounted intercooler versus the current setup.

What is with the narrow tires 215/45 18, 234/45 17 would be better.

Mazda has said that wider tires would rub suspension parts under hard turing.

hmmm sems they turned the boost down in other markets

The Mazda certainly ticks the performance box, completing 0-62mph in 6.6 seconds and 0-100mph in only 16.4 seconds. With 257bhp, 380Nm of torque and lots of urge across the rev range, the four-cylinder unit feels more like a big V6, happy to pull low down from any of its six gears and accelerating hard into three figures. The engine spins smoothly and creamily to its 7,000rpm red line - seamless power delivery tends to mask its huge pace, but this is a superb powertrain.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/previews/64207/mazda_6_mps.html

I've had a subscription to C&D for 12 years. In their comparison they'll say at the beginning exactly what the point of the comparison is.....the most uncompromised car, or the best all around performer, or whatever. Yet, their point scales is the same regardless of what the particular comparison is focused on.


Well, sorta yes, sorta no. After they add up the performance, comfort, styling points, they then add in the subjective "Fun to drive" factor and the completely useless "Gotta Have it" factor; each of which carry a lot more points weighting than any of the other (more tangible, IMO) factors. These two factors tend to jumble the finishing orders of these comparos quite a bit, compared to how you'd think it would turn out by just reading the driving observations. so definitely take C&D with a grain of salt.

I do agree with MikeW that the MS6 is undertired. that's definitely an earned knock on Mazda for not forseeing that a 3500# sports sedan would need extra rubber.

I did and still do disagree with how Mazda setup the MS6's engine. Personally I have no problem with a discreet hood scoop like on the Legacy GT. That doesn't look immature, rice or whatever to me. If, for whatever reason, they had to use a top mounted intercooler, then that is what they should have used. Additionally... according to a JDM magazine the Tokyo Auto Salon MS Concept car had a larger intercooler and turbo. That is something else they should have considered versus just upping the boost for the USDM.

With the setup they used... a carbon fiber hood, magnesium alloy, or ? hood should have been used to reduce weight with some kind of venting (something like the MS Concept car) to help keep under hood temps down. That plus a larger intercooler and possibly a larger turbo with less boost would have been a more optimal setup.

The best setup... a side mount or front mount intercooler with a normal hood and possibly a larger turbo.

What mazda did put out for USDM was just half-assed and stupid. Upping the boost and changing the gearing to improve performance without adequate consideration for the cooling issues and gasoline quality (in places like Ca) was just plain old amature. Rushing a flawed product to market is a good way to lose customers. I expect better of Mazda than that.

I would have thought mazda learned its lesson after producing the 2nd Gen. RX-7 with a top mount intercooler. Even the MS Miata has a FMIC!! That huge bumper opening on the MS6 would be the perfect place to put a FMIC, but noooooooo why would they want to do something crazy like that?

I bet they didn't make the MS6 any more powerful because then it would be faster than the RX-8 in straight line performance.

I bet they didn't make the MS6 any more powerful because then it would be faster than the RX-8 in straight line performance.

I think that it's already a bit quicker than the RX8 through a 1/4 mile. In the few reviews I've read, it's been running low, low 14s at just under 100mph, with a 0-60 under 5.5.

The Mazdaspeed 6 is crap. What happened to Mazdas vaunted lightweight great handling cars. If this is supposed to be the top 6, then forget about it. Mazda is great at making a 7/10 car but they can't make a 10/10 car.

Yeah I'm aware that its already faster than the 8, but I was saying they didn't want to make it any more powerful than it currently is so it wouldn't really walk away from the 8 in a straight line. Unless people are really beating the absolute piss out of either car the race will be awfully close.

the speed or performance of the rx-8 was not a metric of any kind when developing the MS6.

AS we know Mazda have always been on the conservative or cautious side when it comes to turbos and boost on any of its Japanese made models....I wonder why?

Even the 150 Australian developed/made MX-5SP (NB) Turbo's by A.Horsley & Co had mild boost.
Partly because the engine/pistons and rings were stock standard MX-5.
It did though out perform the later Japanese MX-5 SE which was factory modified.

The Mazdaspeed 6 is crap. What happened to Mazdas vaunted lightweight great handling cars. If this is supposed to be the top 6, then forget about it. Mazda is great at making a 7/10 car but they can't make a 10/10 car.

Give me a break!....

So who in your opinion make 10/10 cars?

And who and in what numbers (sales) are going to buy this 10/10 car, and who can and would be able to afford it.

Every car ever made is also made to a price...you know, you get what you pay for.

Mazda like the other 99.9% of manufacturers mass produce cars for WORLD markets, with all types of performance related/reliability issues because of fuel quality in a particular region and or climate.

IMO Mazda like some other makes get the 'Balance' right.

The Mazdaspeed 6 is crap. What happened to Mazdas vaunted lightweight great handling cars. If this is supposed to be the top 6, then forget about it. Mazda is great at making a 7/10 car but they can't make a 10/10 car.

Dang, you are never happy. First you say that Mazdas are underpowered. Now that they build a high hp one, you say why is it so heavy.. blah blah blah. Ash has a point and the thing Mazda concentrates on is balance and also driver connection to the road; that zoom-zoom feeling. The perfect car does not exist because everyone has different needs/tastes. There is something not right if you are basing your "The Mazdaspeed 6 is crap" notion on a review you read in a magazine.

I have to also add, and yeah, I say that I am BIAS to anything MAZDA...and at the moment I can be, If Mazda make such "crap' cars that are 7/10.....

Why so many Automotive Awards world wide for the RX-8,Mazda3, Mazda6, Mazda5......
and now the new MX-5...Japan's Car of the Year, New Zealand's COTY, Australia's COTY, against the competitors, like Mercedes CSL, Mercedes M Class (Made IN USA), BMW 3 Series, Lexus IS 250, PORSCHE, etc ,etc,.

So, all these judges have it wrong?

Yes. :mdrmed:

How could they miss the CLS55 or Z tune Skyline GTR???

What Skyline GTR? It hasn't been in production for several years now.

Well, there seems to be some truth to that. It seems when they start upping the power in their cars they struggle a bit with handling dynamics, the MSMiata and MS6 are perfect examples of that.

I want people that just call cars like the Evo and STI econoboxes with a bunch of mods thrown on to take a close look at how some higher tuned existing models turn out from other companies. It's damn tough to make cars as good as the STI and Evo, throwing a bunch of performance parts on an existing platform doesn't mean it's going to be a better car.


I think they(mazda) just want to build cars that perform well and be civilized at the same time. I don't by that garbage about handling dynamics. Mazda could easily build the perfect race car for the street but convincing mazda that it will sell is another story altogether. I think the company is still rebuilding itself and the more enthusiast oriented cars will come when Mazda can afford to take more risks.

Basically in a nutshell, If Mazda can be the first and only Japanese manufacturer to win Lemans, have their own formula open wheel championship and be the only car company to make the rotary competitive. I'm sure it's not Mazda's engineering that is holding them back. It's all economics my friend.

Also keep in mind that Mazda will never make an evo or sti killer(ie awd ms3 with ms6 motor) . Not because they can't but because it would be a terrible business move. If anything, I could see a future rx7 or rx9 that will be everything the fd was and more. The price will be higher then the 8 and it will have FI.

I would advise everyone to be patient with mazda. I'm sure that something is cooking as we speak.

Everyone praises Mazda for making cars that are just right, handling, weight, balance etc. but why is the Mazdaspeed 6 so heavy? Compared to other all wheel drive cars its heavy. The Legacy is faster and handles better.

I like Mazdas. They just can't seem to get the perfect combination of speed and handling. IMO Mazda should have shot for EVO performance out of the Mazdaspeed 6. In the long run I don't think it will really matter as I don't think it will be a great seller. I sat in one at the dealer and they wanted 38 grand for it. IT IS NOT WORTH THAT! Anything more than 30 for that is a ripoff.

As far as the RX 8 is concerned, read Car magazines rightup about it. Something about how they're getting tired of it and how it has no torque and that sure Mazda's got good handling in the 8 but not bad gas mileage

Everyone praises Mazda for making cars that are just right, handling, weight, balance etc. but why is the Mazdaspeed 6 so heavy? Compared to other all wheel drive cars its heavy. The Legacy is faster and handles better.

I like Mazdas. They just can't seem to get the perfect combination of speed and handling. IMO Mazda should have shot for EVO performance out of the Mazdaspeed 6. In the long run I don't think it will really matter as I don't think it will be a great seller. I sat in one at the dealer and they wanted 38 grand for it. IT IS NOT WORTH THAT! Anything more than 30 for that is a ripoff.

As far as the RX 8 is concerned, read Car magazines rightup about it. Something about how they're getting tired of it and how it has no torque and that sure Mazda's got good handling in the 8 but not bad gas mileage

The mazda 6 is a mid sized sedan not a sport compact. If mazda wanted to compete with the evo, they would use the mazda 3 chassis.

why are you so mad at mazda? sounds like you have a vendetta. :mdrmed:

I see Mazda for what it is. A middle of the road car manufacturer who makes somewhat sporty vehicles.

This is my first Japanese car and I must say I'm not impressed. My car just spent 2 weeks at the dealer waiting for an altenator that went at 50,800 miles. 800 miles after my warranty expired. Mazda did pick up part of the tab and I'm greatful for that, but I still had to pay. That, along with the 2 water pumps I needed (both were repaired under warranty, but I'm afraid of it happening again), the ac condensor I shelled almost $800 for and the 3 times a week I've gotta fill her up, I'm starting to wonder what's so great about this car. Sure it handles good but that's just one factor. It's slow to pick up unless I'm wailing it and that just gets me even less mileage. The mileage on this car is at the exotic car level but the power is not. I can see if it had one, bad gas mileage but awesome power and pickup or great mileage and the pickup it has but when it comes to pickup it's at the bottom of the pack of the cars it's compared with and the worst at mileage. I'm sorry for venting, this is the wrong thread for that.

sorry to hear about your troubles but it seems that you made the wrong car choice from the get go. Did you test drive the 8 before you bought it?

Yes I did and I fell in love with it. I never said I didn't want my car. I love it and hate it at the same time. Perhaps you guys can't relate to such a concept. Like a woman who has your heart but in the long run is not so good for you.

and a 10 minute test drive isn't going to tell you everything about a car. I should've waited for a few longterm tests and not been one of the 1st to buy the car. I realize now that the longterm tests are a more important gauge to consider.

Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but the Mazdaspeed 6 finished 5th in the AWD car comparo in the March road and track.

I had a 40 minute test drive of the Mazdaspeed6 today.

my opinion?

buy the Subaru Legacy GT instead

this coming from a huge Mazda fan

I am sad :(

Surprised no one has mentioned it yet, but the Mazdaspeed 6 finished 5th in the AWD car comparo in the March road and track.

Did you read the comparison? If you look at their speed vs. time chart, it looks like the Mazda starts pulling boost at the top of third gear. The car is one of the quickest in the test to 60, but is by far the slowest in the test above 70mph. It actually looks like the engine pulls all boost, because it accelerates far, far slower than even the 3700lb, 204 hp, automatic, AWD IS250. Looks like 91 octane does not agree with that engine, especially if you get on the gas for more than a few seconds. It's really too bad :(

there's a bunch of problems with that car other than just losing boost that made it suck

Do tell...

ok, since you asked for it, here's a little review I wrote on another forum, is it OK for a fellow mazda owner to completely pan another mazda car? i hope so :spank:

-------------------------

ok, here goes my quick review of my testdrive of the Mazdaspeed6, i'm just gonna list the pro's and con's that i noticed during my 40 minute test drive. Tested at Rosenthal Arlington Mazda in Arlington, VA, which, btw, I probably won't be buying any car from them based on this test driving experience with them... gotta treat your customer better, if he says he has to go, you let him go and don't hold him up...

anyway, to the review:

Pros:
- the engine: sweet engine when in boost, which is around 3000rpm and pulls hard all the way up to 6000rpm.

- gas pedal/brake pedals: positioning has been revised so that when the brake is pressed down, it is at the same level as the gas pedal, an improvement over stock 6's that allow for easy heel toe downshifts.

- AWD: I was able to have AWD kick in on several occassions, both when launching from a stop and when pushing it hard through a highway onramp. It works well enough to remove most of the understeer that a stock FWD 6 would've had under those conditions.

Cons:
- the engine: though it pulls hard when in boost, but right at 6000rpm, all of a sudden it's as if it lost boost and the engine just bogs down. The tachometer has the redline at 6500rpm, this annoyed me quite a bit during the test drive

- suspension tuning: you call THIS sporty? my STOCK RX-8's suspension feels stiffer and handles WAY better than this SUPPOSEDLY 'Mazdaspeed' car. I thought I was driving a regular 6 again... not impressed at all.

- size and weight: it's BIG and it's HEAVY, you can tell as soon as the car starts moving, that sense of nimbleness that I get with the 8, or even my old Protege, simply doesn't exist, I guess even Mazda can't defy simple physics.

- shifter: I guess I'm spoiled by the RX-8's shifter, this thing had long throws and felt notchy. The 8's shifter isn't exactly snick-snick by any measure, but the difference was great enough that I actually felt it became an obstacle in the whole driving experience. One thing I should note, the *best* shifters I've ever driven in a stock production car are the Miata/MX-5 shifters, and the MSP. Gotta try one o' them S2k shifters one of these days

these are the main negative points I've noticed during this test drive, there are other things that I noticed that I wasn't comfortable with, that are more due to design differences between the 8 and the MS6 (ie seat positioning, speedo/tach placement, steering wheel positioning, shifter positioning, etc) than actual functional differences, so I didn't list them as 'negatives'

Conclusion: Mazda got off to a great start in establishing the Mazdaspeed brand by releasing the Mazdaspeed Protege and the Mazdaspeed Miata, but then they released this dud of a car. I don't know how this car deserves the Mazdaspeed label. That 'fun to drive' feeling that I felt when test driving those previous 2 Mazdaspeed cars is completely missing from this one. Save your money and get a Subaru Legacy GT (which I also drove and had a MUCH MORE POSITIVE driving experience), and be on your merry way

THE END

Did you read the comparison? If you look at their speed vs. time chart, it looks like the Mazda starts pulling boost at the top of third gear. The car is one of the quickest in the test to 60, but is by far the slowest in the test above 70mph. It actually looks like the engine pulls all boost, because it accelerates far, far slower than even the 3700lb, 204 hp, automatic, AWD IS250. Looks like 91 octane does not agree with that engine, especially if you get on the gas for more than a few seconds. It's really too bad :(

Yeah, but they sure didn't make as big of a deal out of it as I would have. It's not pulling boost, it's pulling timing, which means there's most likely some pretty bad knock happening. The car trapped 86mph and ran a sub 15 1/4 mile, that's a pretty obvious issue. Yep another turbo car from Mazda that is a disaster, how the hell do they not take care of this stuff before a car goes into production. Nice work with the interwarmer and the fubared ECU settings Mazda, you'd think the countless flashes on some of their other cars would teach them a lesson. To top it all off they couldn't even get the handling right, something Mazda is usually pretty damn good at.

Looks like Edmunds likes it:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109487/pageId=68929

I want people that just call cars like the Evo and STI econoboxes with a bunch of mods thrown on to take a close look at how some higher tuned existing models turn out from other companies. It's damn tough to make cars as good as the STI and Evo, throwing a bunch of performance parts on an existing platform doesn't mean it's going to be a better car.

I think it's easy to tag cars like the EVO and STi as being this because of how they look both interior and exterior wise. I see a lady all the time with a silver Impreza RS, and from purely a looks standpoint without considering the time ane energy for what's inside and how it performs, it's exactly like my car, only I paid about 14 grand more for nicer rims, fancy interior add ons, a big wing and a big hood scoop. When just looking at a car without knowing or caring what's inside, it really is justified. I love cars like the EVO and STi for what they are, but like all cars they have flaws. You have to buy one of these cars based on their performance , and their every day ability as daily drivers, and nothing else. The econobox tag comes from it's looks. Inside, it is brilliantly done up, and should be appreciated for that. However, if you look at a car for more then how it performs, then the econobox tag is hard to argue, because it is afterall an Impreza and Lancer. Just because people who prefer looks, refinement, overall feel, and luxury while wanting this kind of performance will shy away from an STi or EVO, and criticize it, doesn't make it wrong. These type of cars are a great compromise from what many want out of a car. If you want the best of all worlds, you are looking in the wrong direction, because these cars don't have the total package. They are still wonderful purpose built cars that with the right people can be as good as any other car in their minds, as long as the things it lacks mean nothing to them, just as with people who prefer looks, refinement and luxury over performance. :)

With that said, I truly wish they would take the wonderful performance of these cars, and work on the looks both interior and exterior wise. I guess that would mean a much too expensive car, taking away from the rally purpose. That's really too bad. I'd give just about anything for an the interals of an STI with the exterior, interior, and chassis of the RX8. I'm going back to dreamland now. ;)

I have yet to drive an MS6 but I have diven a regular 6. I wasn't impressed with it at all. I even drove back in the Rev It Up competiton like many others did where you get to drive it hard. It is heavy, has lots of bodyroll, and understeers like it's on ice. Even the upgraded suspension cars in the Rev It Up event were the same way. If the upgrade suspensions from those cars is indicitive of the MS6 setup, I probably won't like it. It did need more tire under it. I need to go drive an MS6 but I have no doubt it'll feel like someone slapped a turbo and a suspension on a regular heavy 6. Oh wait, that's what they did and that apparently still doesn't make it a performance car. Where have I seen that done beore? I'll go check one out for verification.

I think it's easy to tag cars like the EVO and STi as being this because of how they look both interior and exterior wise. I see a lady all the time with a silver Impreza RS, and from purely a looks standpoint without considering the time ane energy for what's inside and how it performs, it's exactly like my car, only I paid about 14 grand more for nicer rims, fancy interior add ons, a big wing and a big hood scoop. When just looking at a car without knowing or caring what's inside, it really is justified. I love cars like the EVO and STi for what they are, but like all cars they have flaws. You have to buy one of these cars based on their performance , and their every day ability as daily drivers, and nothing else. The econobox tag comes from it's looks. Inside, it is brilliantly done up, and should be appreciated for that. However, if you look at a car for more then how it performs, then the econobox tag is hard to argue, because it is afterall an Impreza and Lancer. Just because people who prefer looks, refinement, overall feel, and luxury while wanting this kind of performance will shy away from an STi or EVO, and criticize it, doesn't make it wrong. These type of cars are a great compromise from what many want out of a car. If you want the best of all worlds, you are looking in the wrong direction, because these cars don't have the total package. They are still wonderful purpose built cars that with the right people can be as good as any other car in their minds, as long as the things it lacks mean nothing to them, just as with people who prefer looks, refinement and luxury over performance. :)

With that said, I truly wish they would take the wonderful performance of these cars, and work on the looks both interior and exterior wise. I guess that would mean a much too expensive car, taking away from the rally purpose. That's really too bad. I'd give just about anything for an the interals of an STI with the exterior, interior, and chassis of the RX8. I'm going back to dreamland now. ;)

It may be easy for people to tag them as econoboxes with some mods, but it's still ignorant. You also seem to ingore the fact that there are a lot of people out there that love the looks of the STI and Evo.

Part of what makes the STI and Evo such wonderful cars is their raw nature. Put a bunch of plush interior features in, weigh them down with a bunch of sound deadening and a bunch more coats of paint and clearcoat, and you have lost the essence of these cars. Go ahead and dream of a dumbed down version of the STI and Evo filled with fluff, I'll take them just the way they are.

I remember reading on the Mazda6club board recently, that Mazda discovered the problem with the loss of power thing, they believe it is caused by a way too sensitive knock sensor. A fix is on the way they say.
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How To Roll A Joint (http://howtorollajoint.net/)

Coats of paint? Seriously how much does a coat of paint weigh? Mitsubishi is already changing to something that is more visually appealing to general performance car buyer in the X. So we’ll see how successful they are at it. The lancer bodywork isn’t going to be any heavier (excluding the aluminum bits of course) than any other small car. If you took the IX and wrapped it in body of an A4 and gave it the interior of a new civic or 2006 STI they would sell more.

Yes it’s not a bread an butter car yes it was geared for the enthusiast and is easy to mod but if you could sell more units with small changes why wouldn’t you. Not like Mitsu can’t use the money and positive press it would generate.

Back to the MS6, on paper it seems like a nice compromise if you want a sporting car that doesn’t look like a rally car but has 80% of what you might want. Maybe they will make some tweaks next year.

It may be easy for people to tag them as econoboxes with some mods, but it's still ignorant. You also seem to ingore the fact that there are a lot of people out there that love the looks of the STI and Evo.

Part of what makes the STI and Evo such wonderful cars is their raw nature. Put a bunch of plush interior features in, weigh them down with a bunch of sound deadening and a bunch more coats of paint and clearcoat, and you have lost the essence of these cars. Go ahead and dream of a dumbed down version of the STI and Evo filled with fluff, I'll take them just the way they are.


OK. Lets assume that the EVO and STI were just like the regular lancer and the impreza RS in performance. How would these cars do on a looks scale compared to other sports cars? If you think I am wrong, and you think that the car will be love for it's looks regardless of it's performance as much as it is now, speak up, and state your argument. ;) This is like the average looking girl that's wild in bed, and has a great personality. She will look better to the person who is with her, and falls in love with her, as is the case with you. Love is also blind, and with that comes partiality. It's ignorant to tag any car negatively, let alone calling the STI and EVO econoboxes. No one is gonna try and change who you are and what you prefer, but to call a hot looking luxury sports car with the ability of the STI a dumbed down version, is about as ignorant as it gets. These are your favorite types of cars. There is nothing wrong with that. You shouldn't get offended when people call them hopped up econoboxes. I didn't get offended when people ripped on the rx8 for it's lack of performance, and all show no go. I know how to ignore the negative, and respect that people are just different. We are who we are, so don't hate, APPRECIATE, even if you don't agree. :)

OK. Lets assume that the EVO and STI were just like the regular lancer and the impreza RS in performance. How would these cars do on a looks scale compared to other sports cars? If you think I am wrong, and you think that the car will be love for it's looks regardless of it's performance as much as it is now, speak up, and state your argument. ;) This is like the average looking girl that's wild in bed, and has a great personality. She will look better to the person who is with her, and falls in love with her, as is the case with you. Love is also blind, and with that comes partiality. It's ignorant to tag any car negatively, let alone calling the STI and EVO econoboxes. No one is gonna try and change who you are and what you prefer, but to call a hot looking luxury sports car with the ability of the STI a dumbed down version, is about as ignorant as it gets. These are your favorite types of cars. There is nothing wrong with that. You shouldn't get offended when people call them hopped up econoboxes. I didn't get offended when people ripped on the rx8 for it's lack of performance, and all show no go. I know how to ignore the negative, and respect that people are just different. We are who we are, so don't hate, APPRECIATE, even if you don't agree. :)


We might as well argue which color is better, red or blue. Looks are a purely subjective thing, I don't care if 99 people out of 100 say red looks better than blue, it doesn't make that 1 person that thinks blue looks better wrong.

Yes, the average person is going to think cars like the RX-8 and 350Z look better than the STI and Evo. On the other hand, I think the average person has awful taste. Most people out there that think Olive Garden and Chilis have great food, Yellow Tail, Turning Leaf, and Bolla make great wines, and clothes from the Gap and Target look great. They're all crap if you ask me, but again, just my opinion.

Don't misconstrue my argument into me saying that the STI and Evo can't look better, they certainly can. There are certainly cars in the STI and Evo range that I think are better looking, but that's purely my opinion. You have to ask yourself at what cost though. All these things you talk about add money, the interior and luxury you talk about adds weight, and would put the STI and Evo prices out of reach for most people, and that's just not what these cars are about.

Also, find me a Luxury Sports car with the abilities of the STI and Evo, because I can't find one anywhere near the price. Evo magazine just did a comparo of the Evo to the RS4 and 911 Carrera 4, the Evo was faster around the track than both, more fun to drive by most accounts, and won the comparo. Of course money is a factor in that comparison, but I love the fact that I can afford a car with this kind of performance, to me that makes it beautiful. Function over form is an aspect of design, and a damn good one if you ask me.

In addition, my love for Subarus started when I was very young. The car I wanted when I was in my early teens was an XT6. I also loved the looks for the 90s Imprezas, I didn't buy one because of the performance. When I found out the WRX was coming to the US I had to have one, and it wasn't just because of the performance. I'm not alone in that thinking.

Again, you don't seem to realize why the STI and Evo are based on the Lancer and Impreza, it's due to homologation rally rules. It wasn't just because Subaru and Mitsubishi wanted to cut some corners.

Fact is, if you want a car for under 75k, you're going to have to make compromises somewhere. In fact I don't think there's a car in the world that doesn't have compromises.

^^I agree.

Ike... compromises are not only fine, but expected. But that doesn't HAVE to affect styling. I know you like the looks of the Imprezza (I've personally thought all of the are ugly and the new face is ok... always prefered the Legacy) and you don't mind the Evo (seeing as how you own one). Looks are subjective, but alot of people... both average consumers and enthusiasts don't find their looks appealing. Improving the looks and interior design (not necessarily materials) doesn't cost anymore than putting out ugly designs with bad ergonomics. I think that this is what people are really asking for... and Mitsubishi is trying to answer with the Evo X. If they make very closer to the exterior of the show car, they'll have done it for me.

BTW, I did like the Evo VII when it first came out. Now... between age and the changes to the front by Evo IX... I don't care much for it. Maybe it was a bit dated design from the beginning...

I like the way the STi looks. evo i can pass on, but i wouldnt call it ugly. I think the 350z is pretty ugly :/

Ike's basically got u owned on this arguement...

Ike... compromises are not only fine, but expected. But that doesn't HAVE to affect styling. I know you like the looks of the Imprezza (I've personally thought all of the are ugly and the new face is ok... always prefered the Legacy) and you don't mind the Evo (seeing as how you own one). Looks are subjective, but alot of people... both average consumers and enthusiasts don't find their looks appealing. Improving the looks and interior design (not necessarily materials) doesn't cost anymore than putting out ugly designs with bad ergonomics. I think that this is what people are really asking for... and Mitsubishi is trying to answer with the Evo X. If they make very closer to the exterior of the show car, they'll have done it for me.

Well said. Ike doesn't appear to see and/or acknowledge his own partiality and ignorance, yet reveals others. Likely he just trumps raw performance over styling, and doesn't need the car to be sexy like the RX8. Nothing wrong with that. Fact is, we are all ignorant, it's just a question of whether we want to admit it or not. Someone out there will always like the looks of cars like STI and EVO, but many times they have extreme partiality, as the case is with Ike. It's just what he prefers. No doubt that if you line up an RX8, EVO, and an STI, and do a nationwide vote which car is nicer looking inside and out, it's gonna be an utter landslide for the RX8. It really doesn't mean anything. What matters is what YOU like. Nonetheless, there is serious room for improvement. The nicer as well. The cars are starting to catch up to their price as far as styling, but still have a long way to go. Not saying that's right, but it's an opinion I am sure a majority of people agree with, as well as the companies themselves, which is why they make the changes.


With that said I wanna ask Ike a question since he's so on top of Subaru. I have heard a rumor that a limited Edition STI is coming soon to US? It is rumored to have blue leather heated seating, power moonroof, and a wrx spoiler in place of the sti wing. amongst other creature comforts. The wing part I don't buy, but man if that is true, I might have to run to dealer for a trade. To me that's what ruins this car, and it's also what has people I know and meet asking "why did you get it with that ugly wing. It's hard to explain that I had no choice. People on the sti forum of course are bashing this because it adds weight and takes away the rawness of the STI. I say, bring it on. This is what I want out of a daily driver. A moonroof, leather heated seats and a nicer looking spoiler is just what the doctor ordered for me. Just add the navigation, and SMG option, and I'm all in. ;)

I like the way the STi looks. evo i can pass on, but i wouldnt call it ugly. I think the 350z is pretty ugly :/

Ike's basically got u owned on this arguement...


Looks like Ike has a fanboi. ;) If you would have called the EVO ugly, you'd be off the fan club mailing list. :rollingla

I'll be curious as to what Subaru does for their 2008 model, supposed to be a complete redesign.

In the past I have always gone for a good looking car, I'm a web designer so it's in my nature. There are basic forms that most (as in more than 50%) of people will find pleasing. For instance the G35 Coupe, wonderful lines and even after a few years it is still very fresh. The Audi TT is moving sculpture, the Solstice is just damn pretty and the RX8 sexy and functional. The appearance of something affects how it is perceived and how it sells. If it didn't no one in design would have a job.

I never looked at an Evo or STI until I saw the mitsu sportback concept and then the concept X last year. Then I found out how great the performance of these cars are and that you have 4 doors and AWD and I was like "Wow, why have I never heard of these before?".

With just a little attention paid to design and style, hell even aerodynamics and a splash of marketing and these two vehicles would sell as many as any 350z or G35c.

Had I known a couple of years ago I could have gotten a sportscar, all weather driving and packed in two child seats I would have never looked at a SUV.

It would still be nice if Mazda could tweak the MS6 a bit and improve the performance and handling. It's a fairly attractive car but just doesn't compete with the EVO or STI.

Well said. Ike doesn't appear to see and/or acknowledge his own partiality and ignorance, yet reveals others. Likely he just trumps raw performance over styling, and doesn't need the car to be sexy like the RX8. Nothing wrong with that. Fact is, we are all ignorant, it's just a question of whether we want to admit it or not. Someone out there will always like the looks of cars like STI and EVO, but many times they have extreme partiality, as the case is with Ike. It's just what he prefers. No doubt that if you line up an RX8, EVO, and an STI, and do a nationwide vote which car is nicer looking inside and out, it's gonna be an utter landslide for the RX8. It really doesn't mean anything. What matters is what YOU like. Nonetheless, there is serious room for improvement. The nicer as well. The cars are starting to catch up to their price as far as styling, but still have a long way to go. Not saying that's right, but it's an opinion I am sure a majority of people agree with, as well as the companies themselves, which is why they make the changes.


With that said I wanna ask Ike a question since he's so on top of Subaru. I have heard a rumor that a limited Edition STI is coming soon to US? It is rumored to have blue leather heated seating, power moonroof, and a wrx spoiler in place of the sti wing. amongst other creature comforts. The wing part I don't buy, but man if that is true, I might have to run to dealer for a trade. To me that's what ruins this car, and it's also what has people I know and meet asking "why did you get it with that ugly wing. It's hard to explain that I had no choice. People on the sti forum of course are bashing this because it adds weight and takes away the rawness of the STI. I say, bring it on. This is what I want out of a daily driver. A moonroof, leather heated seats and a nicer looking spoiler is just what the doctor ordered for me. Just add the navigation, and SMG option, and I'm all in. ;)

I have no partiality, and I have no allegiance. Brand loyalty doesn't carry much weight with me. Subaru treated me very well and I don't have a single complaint, but the Evo is a better performance car than the STI so I jumped ship. If you think the STI would be better with heated seats, an automatic tranny, navigation, leather, trade your car in. Thus far, most of the changes made have been in orderc to one up the other company in the performance area, not to add some creature comforts. You bought the wrong car, you don't get it, and you probably never will. You're probably rolling around with all seasons bithing about the interior noise and lack of luxury, go buy yourself a VW and be done with it.

Fact is, if you want a car for under 75k, you're going to have to make compromises somewhere. In fact I don't think there's a car in the world that doesn't have compromises.

I agree with this except for the 75k part. I think every car has "compromises" even more expensive ones. I have yet to find the perfect car -- just different cars that have certain things I like. But if you tossed all the things I like together in one car I would probably hate it. It's just not possible to find it all in one place because our own varied tastes sometimes are in conflict with one another. Humans are obsessed with variety.

Anywho, I'd have to agree with the whole comment about the Evo/STi not just being Lancer's/Imprezza's with mods thrown on. I think people say "you can make any car fast" like it's a lego set for ages 3-5. It's just not that simple and cost is always a factor.

There are very few cars I'm amazed with: Corvette Z06, RX-8, and Evo. The fact that they do what they do in such a unique way at the price they do it blows my mind. The fancy Europeans can look down their nose at the unrefinement of the Z06, the Civic tuners can mock the RX-8's low straight ahead speed, and the 350Z crowd can laugh at the Evo's "econobox" styling -- at least I won't be unoriginal.

When you derive enjoyment from a car just by driving it and not by comparing it to other cars, then you have something special.

I agree with this except for the 75k part. I think every car has "compromises" even more expensive ones. I have yet to find the perfect car -- just different cars that have certain things I like. But if you tossed all the things I like together in one car I would probably hate it. It's just not possible to find it all in one place because our own varied tastes sometimes are in conflict with one another. Humans are obsessed with variety.

Anywho, I'd have to agree with the whole comment about the Evo/STi not just being Lancer's/Imprezza's with mods thrown on. I think people say "you can make any car fast" like it's a lego set for ages 3-5. It's just not that simple and cost is always a factor.

There are very few cars I'm amazed with: Corvette Z06, RX-8, and Evo. The fact that they do what they do in such a unique way at the price they do it blows my mind. The fancy Europeans can look down their nose at the unrefinement of the Z06, the Civic tuners can mock the RX-8's low straight ahead speed, and the 350Z crowd can laugh at the Evo's "econobox" styling -- at least I won't be unoriginal.

When you derive enjoyment from a car just by driving it and not by comparing it to other cars, then you have something special.

I think you'll find that we're on the same wavelength that there is no perfect car, at least I haven't found it yet. If I ever do I'm pretty damn sure I won't be able to afford it :(

The fact remains that I love my car, just as most RX-8 owners love their car. However I'm fully aware of the shortcomings of my car, it rides rough, I have no cruise control, my interior isn't pretty, and some gold bimbo girl isn't going to go ooo and ahhh over the styling. Fine with me, I can't get girls no matter what my car looks like, and I honestly don't need to since I'm very happy with the girl I'm with.

I love my car despite its shortcomings, and when it comes down to it that's all that matters. Same goes for RX-8 drivers, if I'm not satisfied with the performance of the RX-8, it doesn't matter as long as you are. It's when you make a car out to be something that it's not that i take notice and have a problem. If some guy on the Evo forums talks about how luxurious his Evo is I'll call him on it, just like I'll call out someone on here making the RX-8 out to be something it's not.

I have no partiality, and I have no allegiance. Brand loyalty doesn't carry much weight with me. Subaru treated me very well and I don't have a single complaint, but the Evo is a better performance car than the STI so I jumped ship. If you think the STI would be better with heated seats, an automatic tranny, navigation, leather, trade your car in. Thus far, most of the changes made have been in orderc to one up the other company in the performance area, not to add some creature comforts. You bought the wrong car, you don't get it, and you probably never will. You're probably rolling around with all seasons bithing about the interior noise and lack of luxury, go buy yourself a VW and be done with it.


If you want to respectfully disagree with my opinion, that's fine, but comments like that in the end of your post are a big no no in my book. If I prefer a car like the STI with better looks, refinement, some luxury, softer ride, that's my preference. Who are you to ignorantly tell me to trade my car in, and I say I don't get it? This is where your partiality and ignorance shines brightly for all to see. The STI is as good as it gets right now for me in a daily driver, but one can wish they'd make it to their total liking. There's nothing wrong with wishing the car had things it doesn't, and expressing it. Don't be telling me I don't get it just because the STI is not an enthusiast car for me, and I put it in a category of a daily driver, and my S2K as an enthusiast car. I understand why people love this car for a different reason then myself. The reality is, you are the one that doesn't get it, and you probably never will. I see where you are coming from, and I respect your enthusiasm and knowledge for these types of cars, but don't go taking my criticism and opinions, and throwing them back in my face, just because I strike a nerve in hypothetically breaking up a raw car like the STI. If you don't like the fact that I wouldn't mind turning the STI into a less raw, prettier car that can perform just as well, then that's too bad. It's not right to make comments like that, and you should know better. I understand a lot better then you know, because it appears you, like many diehards, can't imagine cars like the EVO and STI being anything but raw. There's nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with criticizing one who would prefer that., and mentions what their ultimate car would be. With extreme enthusiasm comes extreme partiality, so with that in mind, there's no hard feelings, just be a little more respectful next time. Good day. :)

If you want to respectfully disagree with my opinion, that's fine, but comments like that in the end of your post are a big no no in my book. If I prefer a car like the STI with better looks, refinement, some luxury, softer ride, that's my preference. Who are you to ignorantly tell me to trade my car in, and I say I don't get it? This is where your partiality and ignorance shines brightly for all to see. The STI is as good as it gets right now for me in a daily driver, but one can wish they'd make it to their total liking. There's nothing wrong with wishing the car had things it doesn't, and expressing it. Don't be telling me I don't get it just because the STI is not an enthusiast car for me, and I put it in a category of a daily driver, and my S2K as an enthusiast car. I understand why people love this car for a different reason then myself. The reality is, you are the one that doesn't get it, and you probably never will. I see where you are coming from, and I respect your enthusiasm and knowledge for these types of cars, but don't go taking my criticism and opinions, and throwing them back in my face, just because I strike a nerve in hypothetically breaking up a raw car like the STI. If you don't like the fact that I wouldn't mind turning the STI into a less raw, prettier car that can perform just as well, then that's too bad. It's not right to make comments like that, and you should know better. I understand a lot better then you know, because it appears you, like many diehards, can't imagine cars like the EVO and STI being anything but raw. There's nothing wrong with that, but there is something wrong with criticizing one who would prefer that., and mentions what their ultimate car would be. With extreme enthusiasm comes extreme partiality, so with that in mind, there's no hard feelings, just be a little more respectful next time. Good day. :)

So what kind of all seasons did you decide on?

So what kind of all seasons did you decide on?

When the truth comes out, and one gets put in their place, one tends to resort to comments like this.I wuold like to personally thank you for verifying my previous post, and showing it's true validity. You made my day.
:lol:

When the truth comes out, and one gets put in their place, one tends to resort to comments like this. You made my day.
:lol:

You don't want to answer huh? C'mon, tell us, what kind of tires are on your STI right now?

You don't want to answer huh? C'mon, tell us, what kind of tires are on your STI right now?

Now why would I answer a question that has nothing but disrespectful intentions? Just to verify things further I'll tell you. I use the stock rims and tires 8 months out of the year, and I bought a set of cheap rims and winter tires to get me by the harsh winter months. Everyone knows you can't be driving in snow with stock tires. I thought you knew that already. ;)

My point is you want to make the Evo and STI into something it's not and something I and many other enthusiasts don't want them to become. If you want your sat nav, "SMG", and cushy leather seats, go buy a fucking Lexus or Infiniti. I hope the Evo X doesn't come out to market with the intention of fulfillings the needs of people such as yourself. It's looking more and more like that might be the case, and it sadens me.

Actually there was a luxury type STI shown in Tokyo Salon car show, luxury - very, its gonna sell - I don't think so. However I do feel that most car manufacturer is moving towards the luxury car market, I know sad but true.

My point is you want to make the Evo and STI into something it's not and something I and many other enthusiasts don't want them to become. If you want your sat nav, "SMG", and cushy leather seats, go buy a fucking Lexus or Infiniti. I hope the Evo X doesn't come out to market with the intention of fulfillings the needs of people such as yourself. It's looking more and more like that might be the case, and it sadens me.


That's understandable from a diehard point of view, but why do you get so offended by it to where you need to lash out? I don't want the STI to change necessarily, I just would prefer an Impreza with the same power, yet soothing as a car to take on a road trip, with all the creature comforts, and expensive eye catching looks. We simply have totally different tastes. I'm into RWD compact coupes. I have two types of preferences. One is a daily driver, and the other is a enthusiast fun car. I'm on a RWD car forum talking about my daily driver that happens to be an enthusiast car to many. Subaru currently does not fit that bill for me, but I love those cars as daily drivers because my Mom has been buying them since 1977, and they have been fabulous for her. I still remember my friends 86 XT turbo coupe. My god that car was tagged ugly by many, but I still loved all the cool gadgets it had, and push button 4WD was cool. He even had the adjustable suspension, although after like 70k miles it kept failing, and he eventually had to go with regular struts. Subaru failed with that, but it was so unique. That car was truly special, I don't care what anyone says. ;)
Anyway, The STI is as good as it gets right now for my personality, and until something better comes along, I'm gonna keep it. I do have a Cobb AP on the way, but stage one is where I draw the line for a daily driver I put a lot of miles on. I'm not that out of tune for what the STi is, and I may talk about it like it's just an Impreza, but I sure as hell don't drive it like one. The S2K is possibly getting a pro tune with an s/c this summer, funds permitting, and that's the car I will build up and enjoy. I'm not gonna harp on someone who wishes the S2K was more luxurious, quieter, came with heated seats, auto climate control, navi, or even smg for that matter. If that's what they like more power to them, I just won't be caring too much for it, that's all. It's all good man. :)

My point is you want to make the Evo and STI into something it's not and something I and many other enthusiasts don't want them to become. If you want your sat nav, "SMG", and cushy leather seats, go buy a fucking Lexus or Infiniti. I hope the Evo X doesn't come out to market with the intention of fulfillings the needs of people such as yourself. It's looking more and more like that might be the case, and it sadens me.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it right there. I'm not going to comment on the arguments in this thread, but I will NOT stand for you bashing the SMG! :cussing:

SMG is superior in a lot of ways when compared to a regular stick shifter, which is why most race cars now have sequential manual gearboxes with paddle shifters. You can shift faster, the shifts are more consistent, you can't miss a gear, there are no surprises. An SMG is still a manual, it just has the clutch activated by a computer. This is not to be confused with "tiptronic", "steptronic", etc, etc which are still automatic transmissions with torque converters and shift much slower than a SMG. If the STi came with an SMG option, you can bet that's what I would've gotten. It just makes for a superior track machine.

Yeah, umm... so. Would you all think being able to get into a MS6 at invoice would be a good deal?

Yeah, umm... so. Would you all think being able to get into a MS6 at invoice would be a good deal?

For me, personally, I would rather get a Subaru Legacy GT at Van Bortel Subaru.

Legacy GT @ $300 over invoice = $27,704 - current $1500 rebate = $26,204.
Base Mazdaspeed6 @ invoice = $26,393.

Yeah, umm... so. Would you all think being able to get into a MS6 at invoice would be a good deal?

I would think so, it's limited production and just out.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold it right there. I'm not going to comment on the arguments in this thread, but I will NOT stand for you bashing the SMG! :cussing:

SMG is superior in a lot of ways when compared to a regular stick shifter, which is why most race cars now have sequential manual gearboxes with paddle shifters. You can shift faster, the shifts are more consistent, you can't miss a gear, there are no surprises. An SMG is still a manual, it just has the clutch activated by a computer. This is not to be confused with "tiptronic", "steptronic", etc, etc which are still automatic transmissions with torque converters and shift much slower than a SMG. If the STi came with an SMG option, you can bet that's what I would've gotten. It just makes for a superior track machine.

You're kidding right?

You're kidding right?

Actually, if you can believe it, I'm not. I'm a big SMG fan. :ylsuper:

Actually, if you can believe it, I'm not. I'm a big SMG fan. :ylsuper:

The SMG is garbage in my eyes, the DSG from VAG is so much better. Either way, SMG is not going to be faster around a track, it will be slower due to more difficult throttle modulation, inability to skip gears, and most likely a greater drivetrain loss as well. Lastly, it's not still a manual because you're really not doing anything manually to make it shift, it shifts automatically, hence automatic or if you prefer semi auto.

Ike had one of his unobjective rampage moments due to my comments on the Evo and STI, stating I would love this kind of performance with some luxury, hot looks, and amenities. haha He really doesn't think the SMG is crap, he just can't imagine his beloved cars like the Evo and STI having them, because he wants pure raw, with no comfort, just performance. I too love the SMG tranny, but I wouldn't want it in my S2K, but I wouild take it any day in my STI. I absolutely love the DSG tranny in the GTi. When I drove that, the first thing I thought of was "I want this in my STI." Ok, I'm gonna get Ike all flustered again, and he's gonna start taking pop shots, and tell me to trade my car in and go buy my VW, then I'm gonna call him on his ignorance, ect ect. Well let this story go. ;)

The SMG is garbage in my eyes, the DSG from VAG is so much better. Either way, SMG is not going to be faster around a track, it will be slower due to more difficult throttle modulation, inability to skip gears, and most likely a greater drivetrain loss as well. Lastly, it's not still a manual because you're really not doing anything manually to make it shift, it shifts automatically, hence automatic or if you prefer semi auto.

Ok, when I say SMG, I mean it as sequential manual gearbox or sequential gearbox (generic terms), not necessarily BMW's version of it, although I think BMW's version is decent. DSG is also a SMG. If it's good enough for Petter Solberg and Michael Schumacher, then it's good enough for me.

Ike had one of his unobjective rampage moments due to my comments on the Evo and STI, stating I would love this kind of performance with some luxury, hot looks, and amenities. haha He really doesn't think the SMG is crap, he just can't imagine his beloved cars like the Evo and STI having them, because he wants pure raw, with no comfort, just performance. I too love the SMG tranny, but I wouldn't want it in my S2K, but I wouild take it any day in my STI. I absolutely love the DSG tranny in the GTi. When I drove that, the first thing I thought of was "I want this in my STI." Ok, I'm gonna get Ike all flustered again, and he's gonna start taking pop shots, and tell me to trade my car in and go buy my VW, then I'm gonna call him on his ignorance, ect ect. Well let this story go. ;)

Well you could wait a year or two and get an Evo X, should have what you are looking for. It's what I'm waiting on although I plan on getting the manual since it will be cheaper and provide a better sense of connection to the car for me.

You won't be getting the tranny Schumacher and Solberg get... Hey, if you're just going to use it on your daily commute, fine. But don't fool yourself into thinking it will be faster around a track.

Well you could wait a year or two and get an Evo X, should have what you are looking for. It's what I'm waiting on although I plan on getting the manual since it will be cheaper and provide a better sense of connection to the car for me.

Interesting. I just need to tell myself the EVO is just as, if not more durable then the STI, and that has a possibility. It doesn't help that my uncle, who is a service manager at a Mitsubishi dealership, actually told me to stay away from the Evo. When I got my STi, he said "you made the right choice." personally I think he hates his job. ;) One can only guess Subaru will do the same thing. I think the WRX should come with the power and performance of the STI, and then a new separate STI should be built totally different then the WRX, in the coupe form. Cars like the EVO and STI are too nice to not branch out on their own. It's ashame cars of this caliber and build quality have cheaper economy versions that look so much alike, if not identical. With this kind of performance, they deserve to be distinct, beautiful, and purely individual in both looks and performance. It will be great to see these cars change for the better, or in Ike's case, for the worse. ;)

Interesting. I just need to tell myself the EVO is just as, if not more durable then the STI, and that has a possibility. It doesn't help that my uncle, who is a service manager at a Mitsubishi dealership, actually told me to stay away from the Evo. When I got my STi, he said "you made the right choice." personally I think he hates his job. ;) One can only guess Subaru will do the same thing. I think the WRX should come with the power and performance of the STI, and then a new separate STI should be built totally different then the WRX, in the coupe form. Cars like the EVO and STI are too nice to not branch out on their own. It's ashame cars of this caliber and build quality have cheaper economy versions that look so much alike, if not identical. With this kind of performance, they deserve to be distinct, beautiful, and purely individual in both looks and performance. It will be great to see these cars change for the better, or in Ike's case, for the worse. ;)

You really should look into a Legacy Spec B, it has more of the things you want. Also, don't forget the STI isn't really an actual car, though we refer to it that way. What you said is kind of like saying the Mazdaspeed should really sperate itself from the Mazda 6 and be a unique car. Also, like I've pointed out a few times now, the Evo and STI are Lancers and Imprezas as a result of homologation rules. They also would be much more expensive if you got your wishes.

You really should look into a Legacy Spec B, it has more of the things you want. Also, don't forget the STI isn't really an actual car, though we refer to it that way. What you said is kind of like saying the Mazdaspeed should really sperate itself from the Mazda 6 and be a unique car. Also, like I've pointed out a few times now, the Evo and STI are Lancers and Imprezas as a result of homologation rules. They also would be much more expensive if you got your wishes.

Yeah, you are right. Imagining an AWD RX8 with the Subaru components, that will be insanely high priced. I'm just not into midsize cars for some reason, so the Legacy is not a car I will likely ever buy. I know the STI isn't an actual car, but it's a natural habit to refer it as one, otherwise you get confused if you call it a WRX tuned by STI. What I really am saying is that Subaru should make the WRX STI with the current options available on the WRX, especially the wingless, or WRX wing option. Why not elminate the WRX by itself, and combine both. 300hp in each, both STIS, just different variations, a more raw version, and a more refined luxury version. I'd love for Subaru to have a flagship vehicle, like honda has in s2k, mazda with RX8, and Nissan with 350z. I understand they are not that kind of company though. I'd love to see some AWD sports coupes, that have the style of S2k, RX8, 350Z ect ect, but I realize I am probably in the minority, and that will never happen. I understand that Subaru and Mitsubishi can't re-design the EVO and STI to be separate from their economy versions, because although the car would be absolutely breath taking, it will be too damn expensive. Either way I'm just throwing out ideas and opinions. Naturally people will disagree, but in a selfish world, that regular WRX needs to have 300hp out of the box. :)

Yeah, you are right. Imagining an AWD RX8 with the Subaru components, that will be insanely high priced. I'm just not into midsize cars for some reason, so the Legacy is not a car I will likely ever buy. I know the STI isn't an actual car, but it's a natural habit to refer it as one, otherwise you get confused if you call it a WRX tuned by STI. What I really am saying is that Subaru should make the WRX STI with the current options available on the WRX, especially the wingless, or WRX wing option. Why not elminate the WRX by itself, and combine both. 300hp in each, both STIS, just different variations, a more raw version, and a more refined luxury version. I'd love for Subaru to have a flagship vehicle, like honda has in s2k, mazda with RX8, and Nissan with 350z. I understand they are not that kind of company though. I'd love to see some AWD sports coupes, that have the style of S2k, RX8, 350Z ect ect, but I realize I am probably in the minority, and that will never happen. I understand that Subaru and Mitsubishi can't re-design the EVO and STI to be separate from their economy versions, because although the car would be absolutely breath taking, it will be too damn expensive. Either way I'm just throwing out ideas and opinions. Naturally people will disagree, but in a selfish world, that regular WRX needs to have 300hp out of the box. :)

Subaru sells more WRXs than any other Impreza last I checked. So I think they've carved out just the right niche and shouldn't mess with the results they've had. When Subaru first introduced the WRX they expected to sell around 10k of them a year, they sold 30k in the first year of production. If you want a 300hp WRX it's very easy to do, justa Cobb Accessport and exhaust on an '06 and you're pretty much at STI power levels.

I agree with Ike on this one the WRX is in a very nice spot, good handling, reasonable power, some modability (if thats even a word). From reading the WRX boards the rumor is that the WRX TR will become more Tuner-ready than it is now and the WRX get another trim level with STI power but a tad smoother handling and some other bits.

Mitsu should bring out a WRX level contender 75% of an evo for 10k less.

No reason not to offer several trims and or options an let people pick what they like. There are 3 door, 4 door, 5 door and wagon versions of some models (Mazda 3 I think), why not leverage that if you can.

On a side note if somone is looking for 80% of an STI or Evo but wants softer suspension and refinement a 2 year old Audi S4 would be a good option.

Subaru sells more WRXs than any other Impreza last I checked. So I think they've carved out just the right niche and shouldn't mess with the results they've had. When Subaru first introduced the WRX they expected to sell around 10k of them a year, they sold 30k in the first year of production. If you want a 300hp WRX it's very easy to do, justa Cobb Accessport and exhaust on an '06 and you're pretty much at STI power levels.


I was just living in my own preference world. Of course that would not work well, and the WRX is indeed in a perfect spot. I was considering the WRX purchase and the upgrade to STi level, then I began to wonder just how reliable and durable long term it would be, especially being I'd get an auto. Not sure that tranny will like 300hp for a long time. I can't imagine a COBB AP and exhaust on a WRX, yet having it be just like Subaru built it up at that level, with the same reliability and durability as my STI. Hell I could be wrong but common sense says otherwise. There is most certainly a risk factor there. The safe bet for a highly driven daily driver you want last is to is not to mod it too much, as for my case, the least wear the better, which is why stage 1 for my STI is perfect, and I can just change the map when I want that extra hp.

Here you go man, in case you haven't read it yet, this should make your day...


From C&D last year:

"Yes, there will be an Evo X, insist the company execs milling around at Okazaki, even though Mitsubishi Motors has lost almost $9 billion over the past five years and was hemorrhaging at the rate of $12.5 million per day back in February, according to Automotive News. Mitsubishi sold a piddling 12,500 Evos worldwide last year (4497 of them in the U.S.), but it's a profitable business, says Hideyuki Iwata, Mitsubishi's product manager for the Lancer line. Besides, he adds, Mitsubishi dealers routinely accept a Porsche or Mercedes in trade for an Evo. That's a brand polisher for a company chin-deep in tarnish.

But where will the Evolution evolve next? "A wider power range, a softer ride, and quieter. This is our direction," Iwata says. Then he points to a Mitsubishi-owned Volkswagen R32 fitted with VW's silky-shifting Direct Shift Gearbox and asks, "What do you think of this transmission? It is very interesting to us." To some people, an Evo with paddle shifters and a mellow ride, an Evo that doesn't explode forward at 3000 rpm but merely wafts to higher velocities like a piano pushed off a skyscraper-well, that's just no Evo at all.

But we'll worry about that later."

Here you go man, in case you haven't read it yet, this should make your day...


From C&D last year:
Mitsubishi sold a piddling 12,500 Evos worldwide last year (4497 of them in the U.S.)

Wow, the STI is outselling the EVO pretty nicely. I know in 2004, 7210 STIS were sold in US, and it appears like 05 may have surpassed that. If that is correct, Mitsubishi is doing the right thing, and need to make a change. That has to irk them that the STI is selling better. It's nice for enthusiasts though. The STI is starting to become very common, especially where I live. This is Subaru land, as I cannot go a single day without seeing one of the five Imprezas, but I don't see Lancers very often. I have seen several of those slow ricer looking FWD OZ rally ones though.

Ike... that is just not what I wanted to hear. Softer and quieter... fine. NO biggie. BUt DSG?! That's an interesting transmission to them?! Aw hell... damn POS. They'd better also offer a clutch and double-H tranny or I could care less what the car can do.

Wow, the STI is outselling the EVO pretty nicely. I know in 2004, 7210 STIS were sold in US, and it appears like 05 may have surpassed that. If that is correct, Mitsubishi is doing the right thing, and need to make a change. That has to irk them that the STI is selling better. It's nice for enthusiasts though. The STI is starting to become very common, especially where I live. This is Subaru land, as I cannot go a single day without seeing one of the five Imprezas, but I don't see Lancers very often. I have seen several of those slow ricer looking FWD OZ rally ones though.

Do you have a link for official sales figures for the STi?

Do you have a link for official sales figures for the STi?

It's been posted all over various forums and links. If you search 2004 STi 7210 units, you'll find it all over the place. I initially found it on a thread created on the nasioc forum. I remember seeing a link to an email response from SOA. It's really all there is go on, and seems accurate, barring that the person from SOA didn't just make up numbers. The email also stated that the response to this car became so big, they continued production to meet the demand, hence the great deal I found on mine ($29k) of the 2004 model. I have a November of 2003 build date on mine. I'd love to see the sales figures for the 2005 model, to see how it compares to the 2004. It seems like the 2005 sold more, which would make sense, but who knows. This has definitely turned into a much higher volume car then Subaru anticipated, so it makes sense why they kept making the 04, so it would be in showrooms til the 05 models came out, which were released very early.

Do you have a link for official sales figures for the STi?

It's been posted all over various forums and links. If you search 2004 STi 7210 units, you'll find it all over the place. I initially found it on a thread created on the nasioc forum. I remember seeing a link to an email response from SOA. It's really all there is go on, and seems accurate, barring that the person from SOA didn't just make up numbers. The email also stated that the response to this car became so big, they continued production to meet the demand, hence the great deal I found on mine ($29k) of the 2004 model. I have a November of 2003 build date on mine, and by that time many 04s had already been sold. I'd love to see the sales figures for the 2005 model, to see how it compares to the 2004. It seems like the 2005 sold more, which would make sense, but who knows. This has definitely turned into a much higher volume car then Subaru anticipated, so it makes sense why they kept making the 04, so it would be in showrooms til the 05 models came out, which were released very early.

I drove the Mazdaspeed6 today; I was underwhelmed.

Steering feedback was better than I expected, but no where near the Miata's or RX8's.

Handling was better than its curb weight would imply, but that's not saying much. I won't call it a boat as it would make a competent daily driver, but the MS6 wasn't poised at all. On the plus side, the ride was actually reasonably comfortable; I thought it'd be stiffer based on the reviews I've read. Also, the chassis was noticeably better than the Mazda6 (I've driven the 2.3L and 3.0L).

Acceleration was good around 3500-4500 RPM, but (as expected) it did not come close to touching cars like the STI. Turbo lag was noticeable (significantly worse than the STI, but not as bad as my old 2.0L WRX). High RPM power was astonishingly disappointing... there wasn't anything north of ~5500 RPM. Throttle response was poor, making the car feel even less energetic. It probably has a slightly faster 1/4 mile than the RX8 thanks to its low-end pull/AWD launch advantage, but it was slower than the RX8 at highway passing.

Also, the shifter wasn't much fun to use and the engine revved slow. That combined with its disappointing throttle response made double-clutching seem like work... where's the fun in that?

Frankly, I enjoyed driving a couple GTIs last week more than the MS6. That doesn't speak well of the MS6 given that I didn't find the GTIs to be especially impressive. So, these recent test drives just made me appreciate the RX8 even more.

Without getting involved in the flamewars from earlier in the thread, I will say that I prefer RWD to AWD and manual to SMG/DSG, regardless of which is faster around the track. The GTI's DSG is the best auto I've ever used; it probably shifted faster than I could with the manual. But the manual was still more fun (even compared to the paddles, though they were pretty sweet). Likewise, AWD has competitive advantages over RWD, but I find RWD to be more fun (on pavement, anyway).