I have noticed a lot of Ford haters on this forum and frankly I am surprised. I would like some of you to name a single subsidiary that is actually worse-off with Ford's ownership/involvement. Please provide factual reasons why and not conjecture.

Not hating on Ford, but I believe it was Jaguar that Toyota recently tried to purchase. I would put money on the idea that they would be better off with Toyota.

But I can't thank Ford enough for the financial backing they've given Mazda over the past few decades, not to mention the work Mark Feilds has done with Mazda since 2000.

ummm decades?

Jaguar is doing pretty shitty as always.

I would like some of you to name a single subsidiary that is actually worse-off with Ford's ownership/involvement. Please provide factual reasons why and not conjecture.

Umm, Mercury is all but extinct. Why? Because Ford is shit. Thanks.

Seiko boy knows quality.

Umm, Mercury is all but extinct. Why? Because Ford is shit. Thanks.

That's odd. Must be why their sales are up this year...

Seiko boy knows quality.

actually i do, you racist moron. the sportura collection goes up to $4000. if you knew anything about watches, you'd know the quartz in a $20 target watch is just as good as that in a $30,000 omega. i'm talking purely aesthetics. i challenge you or anyone else to find a single TAG Heuer or Omega or whatever that looks better than the 4 sportura watches. yahtzee.

That's odd. Must be why their sales are up this year...

they can't go anywhere but up. the whole company is going to the shits. let's be honest. if you're going to try to defend Ford's lineup, you're biased.

actually i do, you racist moron. the sportura collection goes up to $4000. if you knew anything about watches, you'd know the quartz in a $20 target watch is just as good as that in a $30,000 omega. i'm talking purely aesthetics. i challenge you or anyone else to find a single TAG Heuer or Omega or whatever that looks better than the 4 sportura watches. yahtzee.

Rolex Daytona!!!

they can't go anywhere but up. the whole company is going to the shits. let's be honest. if you're going to try to defend Ford's lineup, you're biased.

I'm biased....riiiggghht. I'm not the one in this thread who's seems obsessed with image and brand name.

If they can only go up, how can they be going "into the shits?"

Btw Mercury is actually Lincoln-Mercury. The entire model lineup is going away and new models being introduced over the next 4 years. Starting with the Milan and Zephyr. Both nice cars, and a nice change. If these 2 are forecasts of what's to come, then sales will only continue to climb.

actually i do, you racist moron. the sportura collection goes up to $4000. if you knew anything about watches, you'd know the quartz in a $20 target watch is just as good as that in a $30,000 omega. i'm talking purely aesthetics. i challenge you or anyone else to find a single TAG Heuer or Omega or whatever that looks better than the 4 sportura watches. yahtzee.

I didn't see anything racist in BlueEyes comment, so tone it down Tiger....(I'm a Breitling kind of guy, myself).

bascho, I like Fords....I've owned plenty of them, still have a Windsor V8 Ford in my driveway. Great cars, easily maintained and ultra reliable.

ummm decades?
Ford bought 25% of Mazda in 1979. You can look it up right on the corporate website.

I didn't see anything racist in BlueEyes comment, so tone it down Tiger


Hilarious. Where have you been, dude? If you don't get it, then ask BlueEyes about it.

Off topic:

I like the swiss chronometer automatics (mechanical watches)... they last forever and for some of the designs... are timeless!

I envy my dad's Omega Constellation chronometer automatic which he bought in the early Feb 68. Today... that same watch is still working like new. All it had done was a service 15 years ago to adjust the timing mechanism. And from what I hear... the mechanism has jewels as (diamonds) bearings. It's fascinating how springs and gearing can keep in sync with time.

Anyways... back to topic.

There's nothing wrong with Ford. Afterall... the winningest F1 engine is actually a Ford Cosworth UK. Cosworth is famous for the DFV race engines in F1, the ‘winningest’ engine of all time. All it needs now is if Williams F1 team can sort out their chassis and I am sure more people will pay more attention to what brand name the Williams F1 carries. I once read that the first Jaguar F1 team using a Ford Cosworth engine had the lightest, most powerful and highest revving engine to soar above 19000rpm. However, the engine was wasted on an under performing chassis.

I am hoping for Williams F1 to get some podium finishes this year. They have the resources and abilities.

I am a FORD fan btw. Ford Australia down here actually make decent cars and have won the manufacturer and driver 3 times in a row in the V8 Supercar series. NOTHING wrong with Ford.

Ohhh, I also love my MAZDA RX8... kind of sounds like a mini F1 engine with its sonorous wail. Also, it's part owned by Ford. Racing DNA rules!!!!

I'm biased....riiiggghht. I'm not the one in this thread who's seems obsessed with image and brand name.

If they can only go up, how can they be going "into the shits?"

Btw Mercury is actually Lincoln-Mercury. The entire model lineup is going away and new models being introduced over the next 4 years. Starting with the Milan and Zephyr. Both nice cars, and a nice change. If these 2 are forecasts of what's to come, then sales will only continue to climb.

The same reason an AIDS patient can have a week better than the week before, toe cheese.

i challenge you or anyone else to find a single TAG Heuer or Omega or whatever that looks better than the 4 sportura watches.
IWC Aquatimer (well if money is not an issue).
https://www.iwc.ch/collection/_img/5_0_aquatimer/3723_001_l.jpg

And as far as functionality and innovation goes, Tissot's T-Touch is still unbeatable. http://www.tissot.ch/?mod_collection/id_touchscreen/fid_0001/action_preview

Jaguar is doing pretty shitty as always.


Jaguar is doing shitty in what way? I was referring to product development. Since they were acquired by Ford, they are no longer the luxury car that needed to be towed every other day. I think their product line is strong and their line of R types is competitive with BMW and Mercedes.

Umm, Mercury is all but extinct. Why? Because Ford is shit. Thanks.


Mercury was all but extinct a few years.....but that is in the past. The same could be said about Caddie a few years ago.....and look at them now. Mercury has a new leader, Elaina Ford (great grand-daughter of Henry Ford), and she is determined to make Mercury a womans car company. I think that attitude is brilliant since no other company is dedicated to female wants and needs in an automobile.

The employees suck and the product sucks /thread

FORD SUCKSSSSSSSSSS






Just playin

IWC Aquatimer (well if money is not an issue).
https://www.iwc.ch/collection/_img/5_0_aquatimer/3723_001_l.jpg

And as far as functionality and innovation goes, Tissot's T-Touch is still unbeatable. http://www.tissot.ch/?mod_collection/id_touchscreen/fid_0001/action_preview

Dude, have you even seen the sportura collection watches? Those watches are not even close. Can someone post the pics of the 4 sportura watches

Mercury was all but extinct a few years.....but that is in the past. The same could be said about Caddie a few years ago.....and look at them now. Mercury has a new leader, Elaina Ford (great grand-daughter of Henry Ford), and she is determined to make Mercury a womans car company. I think that attitude is brilliant since no other company is dedicated to female wants and needs in an automobile.

Massengill is.

Jaguar is doing shitty in what way? I was referring to product development. Since they were acquired by Ford, they are no longer the luxury car that needed to be towed every other day. I think their product line is strong and their line of R types is competitive with BMW and Mercedes.

You are on crack. Just about every recent Jaguar has finished last in magazine comparos for just about every single car mag out there. The question is: When has a Jaguar not finished last in a comparo?

Off topic:

I like the swiss chronometer automatics (mechanical watches)... they last forever and for some of the designs... are timeless!

I envy my dad's Omega Constellation chronometer automatic which he bought in the early Feb 68. Today... that same watch is still working like new. All it had done was a service 15 years ago to adjust the timing mechanism. And from what I hear... the mechanism has jewels as (diamonds) bearings. It's fascinating how springs and gearing can keep in sync with time.


Those Omegas are really ugly. You are way off. Sportura, TAG Heuer, etc. are driver's watches. You guys are mentioning random watch lines that are a dime a dozen. Come on, morons.

Dude, here's your sportura collection:
http://images.google.com/images?q=sportura%20&sourceid=mozilla-search&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&sa=N&tab=wi

I don't know what the big deal is, storm came up with that kind of design over 10 years ago already:
http://www.astore.com.au/images/PICS/WATCHES/navigator.jpg
http://www.stormwatches.com/home.htm

Anyway, you can't seriously compare a $10,000 IWC watch with some Seiko thing.

ok, so ford sales show some improvement lately, but let no one be surprised. Over 50% of ford sales come from it's truck line, leaving less then 50% coming from it's car lineup. Let's look at what imaginative ford offers.

The ford focus- decent average entry level car which also doubles as thier entry level sports car when equipt so. hp 130-151, leaving it far below competitors. Reaching end of life. (almost every other company beats this entry car hands down).

The ford fusion- nice mid level car, well equiped, nice price, hp 160-221. Nice power, one of fords better cars. ( accords v-6's start at 17K, and hyundai's come better equiped and cheaper+ far better warrenty)

The ford 500- decent large car, 207 hp, decent options but starts getting pricey at the higher end where competition offers better. Much better then the Taurus. ( with 300's, chargers and magnums all starting in this price range, there are more exciting cars out there)

They are still listing the Taurus at the ford website so I'll include it- decent large car, hp running from 153-203, seats 5, good price. Getting dated, and nearing end of life. (what isn't better then a taurus)

The ford crown vic- aging large car, hp 224-239. Good price but far below competitions offerings. Good options, and decent basic large car. ( if it wasn't for cops, would this still be produced)

The ford mustang- very nice muscle car, leader in it's catagory and best bang for the buck that you can buy. hp 210-300, very good price and excellent value. This is fords best car at the moment.

The ford Gt- very nice super car, nostalgic emotional connection. hp 550+. Super fast 0-60 1/4 times, but handling not up to competition costing tens of thousands less. Very hefty price for a ford. Rear heavy and not as well balanced as others in it's class ( and this coming from fords own website on the GT).

Thats it...1 sub standard entry level car, 1 nice mid level car, 3 large cars which 2 are outdated and outclassed, 1 excellent muscle car and 1 nice super car. Other then the mustang, fusion, and 500, the rests are outdated and outclassed. As far as the fusion and 500 go, they are decent, but when compared to other competitors, they just don't stack up, and with others offering 10 year warrenty's...

The better of these cars, except the mustang, are just average decent basic tranportation. There is no excitement or imagination. Someone should tell ford there are more to cars then building basic sedans.

ummm decades?

Uh yeah. Try researching before answering. Ford has owned a share of Mazda since the 70's.

bascho, I like Fords....I've owned plenty of them, still have a Windsor V8 Ford in my driveway. Great cars, easily maintained and ultra reliable.


:yesnod: Yep yep... that's what I keep trying to tell the Ford haters. Been my experience and most everyone I know (who has owned a Ford). Definitely better than my experience with Honda.

actually i do, you racist moron. the sportura collection goes up to $4000. if you knew anything about watches, you'd know the quartz in a $20 target watch is just as good as that in a $30,000 omega. i'm talking purely aesthetics. i challenge you or anyone else to find a single TAG Heuer or Omega or whatever that looks better than the 4 sportura watches. yahtzee.

Not my taste in watches. I'd rather spend my money on a Grand Seiko Automatic. Or just essentially get the same thing for less in a regular Seiko Automatic which is made at the same factory in Japan, assembled by hand by the same people who do the Grand Seiko. Oh yeah... that's right... that's what I did do.

w00t! Seiko! I've got two. One cronograph that's two tone gold and stainless and another stainless with diamonds on the face. Good watches.

I created a thread in the lounge for watch talk so that we don't have to hijack Bascho's thread.

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=81711

^ Nice work :D:

Anyway, you can't seriously compare a $10,000 IWC watch with some Seiko thing.

Oh yes you can. We're talking only about design. Not about jewels, name , etc., which is where the price differences come from. If you don't understand this, then you don't know the watch industry.

I would suggest you guys look first at the entire collection of TAG Heuer. I challenge you to find one that looks better than a seiko sportura. Then go search other brands.

ok, so ford sales show some improvement lately, but let no one be surprised. Over 50% of ford sales come from it's truck line, leaving less then 50% coming from it's car lineup. Let's look at what imaginative ford offers.

The ford focus- decent average entry level car which also doubles as thier entry level sports car when equipt so. hp 130-151, leaving it far below competitors. Reaching end of life. (almost every other company beats this entry car hands down).

The ford fusion- nice mid level car, well equiped, nice price, hp 160-221. Nice power, one of fords better cars. ( accords v-6's start at 17K, and hyundai's come better equiped and cheaper+ far better warrenty)

The ford 500- decent large car, 207 hp, decent options but starts getting pricey at the higher end where competition offers better. Much better then the Taurus. ( with 300's, chargers and magnums all starting in this price range, there are more exciting cars out there)

They are still listing the Taurus at the ford website so I'll include it- decent large car, hp running from 153-203, seats 5, good price. Getting dated, and nearing end of life. (what isn't better then a taurus)

The ford crown vic- aging large car, hp 224-239. Good price but far below competitions offerings. Good options, and decent basic large car. ( if it wasn't for cops, would this still be produced)

The ford mustang- very nice muscle car, leader in it's catagory and best bang for the buck that you can buy. hp 210-300, very good price and excellent value. This is fords best car at the moment.

The ford Gt- very nice super car, nostalgic emotional connection. hp 550+. Super fast 0-60 1/4 times, but handling not up to competition costing tens of thousands less. Very hefty price for a ford. Rear heavy and not as well balanced as others in it's class ( and this coming from fords own website on the GT).

Thats it...1 sub standard entry level car, 1 nice mid level car, 3 large cars which 2 are outdated and outclassed, 1 excellent muscle car and 1 nice super car. Other then the mustang, fusion, and 500, the rests are outdated and outclassed. As far as the fusion and 500 go, they are decent, but when compared to other competitors, they just don't stack up, and with others offering 10 year warrenty's...

The better of these cars, except the mustang, are just average decent basic tranportation. There is no excitement or imagination. Someone should tell ford there are more to cars then building basic sedans.

I agree with everything you say. Finally, someone with some common sense brains.

I would like to add that the Ford 500 is virtually invisible in the minds of the public; people don't even know the damn car or the name exists. Also, the Mustang has several strange physical characteristics that the Chrysler variations don't have. And the Challenger is coming.

It's almost as if Ford doesn't have a cohesive passenger car lineup. It's just a few lonely and sad bits and pieces here and there.

Honestly, I'm not the most fond of Ford! The reason has nothing to do with the quality of their products or bad experience with them. It's more of a difference in taste! For the most part the other "Big 3" companies have had more cars that captured my heart and imagination (moreso GM). Cars like the Corvette, Olds 442, Camaro, GTO, and the list goes on! My Dodge list is considerably smaller but the Viper alone crushes what I might of liked about Ford which is only maybe a past Mustang or 2. If it makes it any easier I'm not extremely fond of what Honda has offered through the years either (the NSX was great but just not enough).

btw, I can't argue with the statement that the 500 is practically invisible. Seriously, I can randomly think of about any car a whole lot quicker than this one and I'm the type of person that takes interest in a variety of different cars. It's not a thought and for it to gain success it needs to be for the general public!

The main reasons I personally don't like Ford are as follows:

1) They got trounced by the Japanese in the passenger car market, and instead of making better products, they quit and put all their focus on trucks/SUVs. Now that truck/SUV sales have slowed because of gas prices and now that the Japanese are building superior trucks/SUVs, what will Ford do?

2) Ford just doesn't make any exciting cars in my price range. Just look at the cars they offer:

Crown Vic - A very dated design that just gets blown away by cars like the 300C and Bonneville GXP.
Focus - another loser destined for the graveyard. One of the bottom dwellers in the cheap sport compact class, clearly behind the Civic Si, RSX, SRT-4, GTI, etc.
Mustang - I was excited about the new design when it first came out, but every time I see the car, I like it less and less. Sitting in one makes me like it even less. Not at all what I had hoped. Maybe a 450hp+ supercharged engine would change my opinion, but I'm not going to pay upwards of $70K for one (some dealers are asking MSRP+30K).
Fusion & 500 - two new designs that were already behind the moment they came out. Usually when a new car comes out, it immediately rockets to the top place in mag comparisons. Not these two. I can see little reason for buying one when you can get an Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Maxima, 300, Avalon, Legacy, etc.

Nothing exciting there. The only exciting, affordable cars come from Ford subsidiaries, and even then, the pickings are slim: Mazda3, Mazda6, MX-5, RX-8, and Volvo S60R. Hmm, the most exciting cars are coming from Mazda, the one subsidiary that Ford doesn't completely own. Coincidence?

So, which of the Big 3 is doing the best financially? That would be Chrysler. Let's see what exciting cars they have come out with in the last few years: PT Cruiser (got everything rolling), SRT-4, Crossfire, 300C, Charger, Challenger, Magnum, along with SRT versions of each. Build something worth buying and maybe you'll start doing better.

I challenge you to find one that looks better than a seiko sportura.
Sorry for the hijack.
Granted, you can't argue about taste, but frankly I'd even prefer my nieces Mickey Mouse watch over that 4-eyed Sportura collection.

I love the latest Ford Commercial where Ford Jr. basicly admits getting their asses kicked by forign compition. Then he promises that ford will now be inovative. Gees Ford, why start now?
I agree their car line up is almost funny, Personaly i dont like their trucks either.

The Five Hundred was not trying to be the 300. You have to remember, not everyone likes the attention the 300 gets. The styling is waaay out there and there is a large market of baby boomers that feel the 300 is gaudy. Five Hundred was the only mid/full-sized sedan to offer AWD in it's price range. Also, the interior of the Five Hundred is very attractive and those that test drove the Five Hundred usually purchased one. Not to mention the Five Hundred outsold the 300 in the last 3 months of 2005.

I agree that Ford abandoned the car market for several years....and Ford has acknowledged that. Ford is getting back into the market with the same mentality it applied to it's trucks. Ask the customer what they want and that is what you build. DCX is doing great right now because they had a head start on restructuring their company. Ford and GM will be where DCX is by 2008. Both Ford and GM have a ton of product coming out between 2005 and 2008.....just look at the line-ups. The Ford car nameplates Ford has used in the last decade are disappearing (except the Mustang). There will not be a 2007 Taurus, production of the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis is being reduced to 1 shift (basically enough production to feed Police depts and Taxi companies) and should be gone by 2008, there will not be a 2007 LS, there will not be a 2008 Town Car. Ford is already thinking about the future and is reacting to what everyone has said about them. What people don't understand is that it takes years to develop a new product. Everything you guys put Ford down for has been addressed last year and this year......the fruition of that change will not be seen until 2007/8. Relax, give Ford and GM a couple years to get back into the car business.... I can't tell you what we have coming.....but I can tell you that you will all be singing a different tune about Ford by 2010 :D:

I'm not to crazy about the Focus lookswise, but I wonder why they don't sell the 225HP ST version in the US?
http://www.ford.co.uk/ns7/foc_c307/-/-/foc_st/-/-/-/#

In this case Ford had an answer to the SRT-4, Mini Cooper S, VW GTI etc.

hmm ok .. besides all your great analysis .. who has seriously looked at any fords to purchase as their new car

i looked at the focus svt back in 03 and didnt like it ... these days i would consider fusion though i would probably find competition to rule it out easy enough .. but no need to go there .. the more powerful model comes in auto only .. point and case

I would like to add that the Ford 500 is virtually invisible in the minds of the public; people don't even know the damn car or the name exists

ford 500 owns you bitches. it also owns at laguna seca.

I think Ford's alright, if a bit boring over here on their home turf. They've got some good ideas in the pipes, it's just a matter of making those ideas reality and I think they can turn things around just like Chrysler has done. I don't quite follow the blind fanboyism in this thread. If Jaguar comes out with a car that doesn't bore me to death, I might consider it. I'm not going to limit my enjoyment of automobiles because some other people say that ford "sucks." If I like the car then screw em - I don't need them to enjoy my car for me.

Oh and Sportura. You might want to dial the attitude back a few notches. You're coming across as very immature.

May God lay rest to my soul if I EVER walk into a Ford dealership.
There's a good reason why Ford is such a hot topic among car enthusiasts today. It's either love 'em or hate 'em.

The Five Hundred was not trying to be the 300. You have to remember, not everyone likes the attention the 300 gets. The styling is waaay out there and there is a large market of baby boomers that feel the 300 is gaudy. Five Hundred was the only mid/full-sized sedan to offer AWD in it's price range. Also, the interior of the Five Hundred is very attractive and those that test drove the Five Hundred usually purchased one. Not to mention the Five Hundred outsold the 300 in the last 3 months of 2005.

The problem is the ford 500 should have been like the 300. Fords lineup is always too conservative, and looks like something only the FBI would drive. Who cares how "gaudy" the 300 is, it's selling like crazy! What could matter more to a car company? Ford cars aren't selling as well because they won't take risks.

I didn't even know the 500 outsold the 300, that’s great news for Ford. I work at Enterprise, so I get to drive both. I can honestly say that I like the 500, I just would never buy one. I think that’s the whole problem with Fords lineup. They aren't bad cars it's just that in today’s market you need to be great to get consumers money.

Another problem I see with Ford (and GM) is they now have a reputation for making crap cars. Right now, they are making some solid cars but it might be too little too late. I met a guy that bought parts for some of GM's lineup and he told me that they put so much pressure to lower prices on parts manufacturers that the result is lower quality goods being put into these cars.

Not to go off on a tangent here, but I think the pension plans and unions are partly to blame as well. I heard something along the line of $2500 a car goes to GM's pension plan. They need to modernize this and perhaps look into 401k plans over pensions. Who knows, I’m sure they know more than I do about this stuff, but something needs to be done.

i was at teh car show yesterday . took a good hard look at the new Ford product and came away actually impressed. The Edge is very nice and has what i consider ample room behind the second row. The Fusion is absolutely better than what it replaces. except as someone else said - the steering wheel is horrible. the button placemt is bad bad bad on the wheel. the freestyle i was impressed with too. there is more room behind the Third row then i expected and the third row folds easilyand flat. much better than someof its competitors.

but damn the Mercury Milan and the Lincoln Zephyr are , as has been pointed out, WAY WAY TOO similar to the Fusion. They could have at least got a better wheel for the Lincoln but its the same crappy one in all 3. They seriously seem more like package level differences then Brand differences. Ford must differentiate the brands better. I was standing there a with only a few feet between me at the Lincoln and someone at the Mercury. They mentioned the price on the Merc- 18,xxx. the Lincoln i was standing at ? 28,xxx. 10k for leather and some heated seats and a lincoln badge? oh and the V6 with poorer gas mileage than the 4cyl in the merc.

The main reasons I personally don't like Ford are as follows:

I don't totally disagree with you... I actually agree on some points, but...


1) They got trounced by the Japanese in the passenger car market, and instead of making better products, they quit and put all their focus on trucks/SUVs. Now that truck/SUV sales have slowed because of gas prices and now that the Japanese are building superior trucks/SUVs, what will Ford do?

I agree on the passenger car part. Ford got dumb. The Ford Taurus was great during the time the SHO model first came out. When the next gen came.. it was a POS. Big ugly boat. The SHO model was a joke. It had a weak V8, came in auto only and the whole car was still an ugly boat. Ford claimed it was because auto sales were greater than manual with the SHO, but so freaking what. If you are selling a supposed sports model then you had damn well better offer a manual... even if it is an option.

As far as trucks go... Ford has always made excellent trucks. Like Chrysler and the mini-van, Ford got the SUV market going with the Explorer. Capitalizing on this was a good idea, but the ridiculous weight they put into this segment was stupid... plain and simple. Excursion... :rolleyes: OTOH... you claim that the Japanese came back and beat Ford at trucks? Really? Name them. The Japanese still can't build a better truck. Name a Japanese truck that has a larger bed, higher towing capacity, more power and more configuration options (bed and cab). Exterior design and interior design... interior comfort and options... they still haven't done it. Go to construction sites... how many Toyota or Nissan full size trucks do you see? How about fleets? How about just work trucks in general? How many Japanese full-size trucks or even SUV's do you see pulling boats, trailers, etc.? The Japanese may be able to make a decent "car-like" SUV... but they haven't been able to top the big 3... Ford in particular at making REAL trucks.


2) Ford just doesn't make any exciting cars in my price range. Just look at the cars they offer:

Crown Vic - A very dated design that just gets blown away by cars like the 300C and Bonneville GXP.
Focus - another loser destined for the graveyard. One of the bottom dwellers in the cheap sport compact class, clearly behind the Civic Si, RSX, SRT-4, GTI, etc.
Mustang - I was excited about the new design when it first came out, but every time I see the car, I like it less and less. Sitting in one makes me like it even less. Not at all what I had hoped. Maybe a 450hp+ supercharged engine would change my opinion, but I'm not going to pay upwards of $70K for one (some dealers are asking MSRP+30K).
Fusion & 500 - two new designs that were already behind the moment they came out. Usually when a new car comes out, it immediately rockets to the top place in mag comparisons. Not these two. I can see little reason for buying one when you can get an Accord, Camry, Sonata, Altima, Maxima, 300, Avalon, Legacy, etc.

Nothing exciting there. The only exciting, affordable cars come from Ford subsidiaries, and even then, the pickings are slim: Mazda3, Mazda6, MX-5, RX-8, and Volvo S60R. Hmm, the most exciting cars are coming from Mazda, the one subsidiary that Ford doesn't completely own. Coincidence?

So, which of the Big 3 is doing the best financially? That would be Chrysler. Let's see what exciting cars they have come out with in the last few years: PT Cruiser (got everything rolling), SRT-4, Crossfire, 300C, Charger, Challenger, Magnum, along with SRT versions of each. Build something worth buying and maybe you'll start doing better.

No argument from me here. I agree... Ford 500... *yawn* :boring: , Crown Vic... they still make that?! Focus... sorry, but it's ugly. I'd take a mazda3 instead. Mustang... I agree. I loved the show car and the production car kinda let me down. The ass is really too long on that car and the "driving lights" in the grill are plain fugly. Interior is O K. If they were all done up like the GT500 inside... that would be MUCH better. The Fusion... styling isn't bad, but I still like the mazda6 better. The steering wheel is utter shit. Ford has a SERIOUS problem with being able to design a decent steering wheel for as long as I can remember. They make 1 design and use it in ALL cars and the design is usually blocky and crappy. The lack of a manual in the V6 model Fusion is the final nail in that coffin for me. No thanks. It's not such a big deal to offer one... the Mazda6 has one and they share platforms and engines. Stop being stupid Ford.

I think that Chrysler has been making more interesting cars... although like MB, all their freaking cars are automatic only. :rolleyes: Between that and their crappy quality interiors (talk about cheap plastic!) and low reliability... none will ever grace my driveway... even the Challenger. I'd take a Mustang or wait to see on the Camaro.

I think Ford needs to do something more along the lines of Daimler and GM and drop that V-8 in more of it's lineup as a performance upgrade. Daimler SEEMS to be doing it with more than half of their lineup. There's a Jeep Grand Cherokee with the Hemi in it that does 0-60 in under 5 seconds. The Hemi is available all over the place in the Daimler cars (with a few exceptions). GM to a lesser extent and in different ways decided to share the Corvettes engine with some of it's cars. The CTS-V had the last Z06's engine in it. The GTO has the current base Corvette's engine in it (I know it's not the best example of a car moving off the lots in bunches but dammit they did it). If they offer something like these I think it can only help!

I didn't even know the 500 outsold the 300, that’s great news for Ford.


That's because it didn't. As reported in the 'press release' section of ford.com and daimlerchrysler.com, US sales for the final 3 months are as follows:

Chrysler 300
----------------
Oct. 2005 -> 12,835 units
Nov. 2005 -> 12,647 units
Dec. 2005 -> 12,202 units
Total -> 37,684 units

Ford Five Hundred
-----------------------
Oct. 2005 -> 7,915 units
Nov. 2005 -> 7,456 units
Dec. 2005 -> 8,321 units
Total -> 23,692 units

Bascho, is there some piece of data that I am missing that you can provide? This is the second time that you posted sales data that conflicts with other information that I have found.

Those Omegas are really ugly. You are way off. Sportura, TAG Heuer, etc. are driver's watches. You guys are mentioning random watch lines that are a dime a dozen. Come on, morons.

Anybody that will pay $10,000 for a watch is a f'in MORON...get a life..

Never liked the Mustang. I've always been on the GM side of that debate. That said, I don't really have much of a problem with them. And I think the things they've done for their subsidiaries has been beneficial for all parties involved.

To stir the pot, though, on why some people have issues with Ford:
- They've been the subject of numerous allegations over loan scandals and defrauding the public through their company called the Associates. Was, or is, it true? I don't believe Ford even owns the Associates anymore. So I have no idea and haven't heard about that scandal in years. If there were court rulings in favor of Ford or settlements against I'm not really sure.
- Allegations have floated around that Ford, himself, was a Nazi sympathizer. I guess depending on your background this may hit close to home.
- The Firestone tire scandal was another one. Did anyone ever watch those Senate hearings? Ford didn't look too good up there in comparison to Firestone. Especially the part where the head of Firestone near begged on his hands and knees for the Gov to perform an independent test to verify their Wilderness A/T tires.

Personally, I can't substantiate the first claim, so it doesn't bother me. If Ford was a Nazi sympathizer, that has no bearing on the current company and the people that work for them - times and companies change. I've had Firestone tires, and like near all of that population had zero issues - at the same time I've never owned a Ford.

The Fusion... styling isn't bad, but I still like the mazda6 (http:///#) better. The steering wheel (http://www.rx8club.com/newreply.php#) is utter shit. Ford (http:///#) has a SERIOUS problem with being able to design a decent steering (http:///#) wheel (http:///#) for as long as I can remember. They make 1 design and use it in ALL cars (http:///#) and the design is usually blocky and crappy.The lack of a manual in the V6 model Fusion is the final nail in that coffin for me. No thanks. It's not such a big deal to offer one... the Mazda6 (http:///#) has one and they share platforms and engines. Stop being stupid Ford (http:///#).These two little factoids struck me as so typical of my over-riding impression of Detroit's big 3 - CHEAP - damn the ultimate cost.

One case, they make it once and use it over and over ... and over.... and over. Fitness for purpose be damned... parts bin design at its best ... the goal is to maximize part production .. minimize design and production cost ...

Second case, part of the 1st actually, but a variation. Purity of design doesn't exist. Reducing cost is again the only goal. Sure maybe only 10% of the potential lobotimized drivers that they can get in the showroom desire a manual over a nameplate only... but damn they won't provide it. "Piss on you enthusiast is the message "... it's really a fake. Buy the auto or walk ... we don't CARE!"

The end result is to convey an impression of robotizied, clone-like souless product. Car as appliance. Great for fleet/rental car sales (http:///#) (which Detroit has always depended on), but bad for customers ever being able to develop an affliction, a craving... and so brand/model loyalty is caput... and car-love cannot exist.

Postscript: The sad fact is this is NOT always the case or even true for these guys- but I've experienced this marketing tone from them for so long - decades in fact - that I now take it as a devine TRUTH - and can't break that impression. Result of this is I've only owned two 'big'-3 cars (http:///#) in 40 years. The first was an original Fix Or Replace Daily (FORD (#)) '65 Galaxy 500 and I didn't recover from that fiasco until THIS year when (as an appliance) I bought a PT (http:///#) Crusier. And it is nice, but still crude compared to Japanese vehicles (http:///#). No car love for them from me.

Ford has had some of the same issues that GM has had and that Chrysler has corrected. Mainly, boring designs and percieved quality. The bread and butter cars became the the majority of their focus for a while which makes sense for the penny pushers under hard times. Chrysler infused excitement into their lineup with the Hemi campaign and cars like the 300 and the Charger. GM is trying to do the same with the SS lineup at Chevy, the GXP lineup at Pontiac, and the V-Series at Caddy. Admittedly, some of their attempts have been flawed but their trying. These cars get people excited about the nameplates and into the showrooms regardless of what they ultimately buy. GM is still doing poorly but they've obviously got more issues that simply boring designs. GM and Ford have fallen into many of the same traps. Toyota doesn't have much excitement in their lineup BUT like Honda the public knows the quality is there.

Just my take on things.....

The problem with ford is that thier cars do not stand out in any catagory. In a tight marketplace where the consumer has so many choices, you have to do at least one thing better then anyone else.

If someone is looking for a reliable car that will not see the shop much, they look at toyota's and honda's.

If they are looking for something that may break down but don't want to pay out of pocket, they will buy a kia or a hyundai which come with 10 year warrenties.

If they are looking for a cheap basic transport car they look at kia, hyundai, suzuki.

If they are looking for something different they look at dodge chrysler.

If they want classy, they look at lexus, acura, merc, bmw, infinity.

If they want something that handles, they look at jap or european cars.

If they want a muscle car they may look at mustangs, but you also have DC hemi's and nissan's 350, and GM products to compete.

If they are looking to impress, european, highend jap, and caddy's come to mind.

If you want an AWD you look at subby or an Evo.

If they are looking for an entry level sports car, you can't beat a SRT4 for the price.

If you are looking for a top sports car, a vette gives you more bang for the buck then almost anything else.

Other then a mustang (GT only), not a single ford product comes to mind for any of these catagories. Ford may be putting out a product that is decent in almost all of these, but not excellent any any single one.

That's because it didn't. As reported in the 'press release' section of ford.com and daimlerchrysler.com, US sales for the final 3 months are as follows:

Chrysler 300
----------------
Oct. 2005 -> 12,835 units
Nov. 2005 -> 12,647 units
Dec. 2005 -> 12,202 units
Total -> 37,684 units

Ford Five Hundred
-----------------------
Oct. 2005 -> 7,915 units
Nov. 2005 -> 7,456 units
Dec. 2005 -> 8,321 units
Total -> 23,692 units

Bascho, is there some piece of data that I am missing that you can provide? This is the second time that you posted sales data that conflicts with other information that I have found.


I believe that Fords sales #'s you posted do not include fleet sales and Chryslers do. I'll try to find the e-mail I rec'd to back up what I said. I think it was an internal e-mail to let the Ford employees know that even though the Five Hundred is being 'bashed' for blandness, that sales are telling another story.

These two little factoids struck me as so typical of my over-riding impression of Detroit's big 3 - CHEAP - damn the ultimate cost.

One case, they make it once and use it over and over ... and over.... and over. Fitness for purpose be damned... parts bin design at its best ... the goal is to maximize part production .. minimize design and production cost ...

Second case, part of the 1st actually, but a variation. Purity of design doesn't exist. Reducing cost is again the only goal. Sure maybe only 10% of the potential lobotimized drivers that they can get in the showroom desire a manual over a nameplate only... but damn they won't provide it. "Piss on you enthusiast is the message "... it's really a fake. Buy the auto or walk ... we don't CARE!"

The end result is to convey an impression of robotizied, clone-like souless product. Car as appliance. Great for fleet/rental car sales (http:///#) (which Detroit has always depended on), but bad for customers ever being able to develop an affliction, a craving... and so brand/model loyalty is caput... and car-love cannot exist.

Postscript: The sad fact is this is NOT always the case or even true for these guys- but I've experienced this marketing tone from them for so long - decades in fact - that I now take it as a devine TRUTH - and can't break that impression. Result of this is I've only owned two 'big'-3 cars (http:///#) in 40 years. The first was an original Fix Or Replace Daily (FORD (#)) '65 Galaxy 500 and I didn't recover from that fiasco until THIS year when (as an appliance) I bought a PT (http:///#) Crusier. And it is nice, but still crude compared to Japanese vehicles (http:///#). No car love for them from me.


Can't argue with a single thing you've stated.....in fact, Ford has acknowledged this and the new Edge and MKX are being built and sold against the status quo. The panoramic glass roof and adaptive headlamps were not cost effective options....but Ford wanted to offer them anyway because that is what market research has taught them. Ford is going to start offering a lot more content in all of their vehicles because they've decided to let the customer decide what is too much for the price range. Most new Ford's allow for iPod connectivity, voice command navigation systems, Sirrius satalite radio, hands-free telecommunication with blue-tooth phones, etc. Over the next couple of years, there will be no limit to the configuration you can add to ALL of the Ford line-up.

But if they still have no manual and those ugly ass steering wheels, I won't be buying. Any meetings you go to about more general product development, market or feedback... you tell them this... all these comments and complaints that I make about Ford... this is coming from someone who is a "Ford man" out of the "Big 3". That should tell Ford that there is STILL something seriously wrong with what they are doing.

I STILL can't believe the steering wheel and lack of manual (V6 model) in the Fusion. Unbelievable.

That Sportura watch looks like nutsack. Ugh. I'll take my Catier 21 Chronoscaph over that any day.

I believe that Fords sales #'s you posted do not include fleet sales and Chryslers do. I'll try to find the e-mail I rec'd to back up what I said. I think it was an internal e-mail to let the Ford employees know that even though the Five Hundred is being 'bashed' for blandness, that sales are telling another story.


The Fivehundred is a little bland, but it will have some staying power. Ford plans to revamp the car with the new signature Ford 3 Bar Grille and add some additional current features to keep it fresh as well as a more powerful 3.5L V-6 to make up for the 3.0L it currently runs.

Chrysler will lose their oomph as they always do, because their cars seem to be trendy and then dated pretty quickly. Ford never intended for the 500 to be their volume leader anyway. There won't be a huge fleet # from Ford either with the 500. They want to keep their residuals high so they will not offer them up in volume to rental companies. Chrysler right now is in desperate need to keep the 300 sales high so they have started pumping them into fleet in record numbers.

What really sucks is that all of the wheel factories that make 22+" sized wheels and people that sell vertical door kits businesses will tank if the 300 stops selling.
I was on my way to work the other day and I saw 2 silver 300's with 22's and chrome mesh grills running right next to each other. It's starting to look really tacky.