Ok, I havent been on this forum too long, infact i just joined today. Ive been reading alot of the threads and something has been bothering me, here is me venting.

Ok, the 350z seems like a great car. It has loads of power and its new. Once the novelty of the car wears out i think the car will pretty much blow. People havta realize that Nissan did not revive a cool concept, which the original Z was, instead they copied Detroit. Yeah, thats right, american cars, muscle cars no less. If you think about it, the 350Z is basically a japanese muscle car with very little flair or character.

Why is Japan copying Detroit? If you think about it, a Mustang GT will probably keep up with the 350Z, it'll probably beat it off the line too. Is it cooler because its japanese? Ford also has a limited edition Mustang that is cheaper than the Cobra, it sells for $28K and has 300+ horsepower, and alot more torque than the 350Z. Weight isnt really an issue since the 350Z is fairly bloated compared to other Japanese cars. I think theres too much hype about the car. Kudos to nissans marketing department for making a so so car into the most anticipated car in a long time. Comparisons with such cars as the SLK, S2000, audi TT, bmw 3 series are obserd, it must be compared to the Mustang of the late camaros of the world.

Unfortunately this car is going to outsell the RX-8 by leaps and bounds. Its sad fact is that most people swear that they know everything there is to know about cars, there are few true enthusiasts around. The guy that swears he knows everything will probably buy the 350Z, it fits that huge demographic perfectly. On the other hand the RX-8 might seem like the bastard son of the RX-7 and a saturn, but its and enthusiasts car, and the true car lover will probably seek out the RX-8. The market however is probably alot smaller than what everyone on this forum would like to believe.

Ok, heres my conclusion. The RX-8 is a cool idea, I love rotaries and the third gen rx7 is still my dream car, but i dont know how well the RX-8 will sell, even if i had the means, i dont think i would buy the car. Call me a pesimist, but i think the RX-8 is doomed for failure, and we'll probably never see a rotary car following the RX-8. I dont think the world is ready for the RX-8, i wish they would just make another RX-7 that would do what the 3rd gen did, give you true supercar performance at reasonable cost.

Tell me what you think

I think I'd take a RX-8 over the RX-7... provided I could still haul ass with the 8 :)

Oh, and as far as the 350Z... yea it will sell a lot more than the 8, but for us few, us blessed few.. we will be in heaven.

Not to mention, the 350Z is running in the 16s in the 1/4 mile!?!?! After second gear, expect it to be all on the 8 and the Renesis. I intend to destroy some 350Zs :)

You best put your flame suit on. ;)

I don't think that the 350Z will sell THAT well, personally. What's it got that the 300Z didn't?

I don't know if the RX8 will sell well or not either. I believe that the perception of the rotary engine will be the key, and hopefully the RX8 will be able to kill the bad perceptions out there. But regardless of how good the car is, public perception will be the key with a majority of buyers, and thus the key to it's success. And it's anyone's guess, even Nostradamus (sp?), as to which way that wind will blow.

---jps

You don't see that many S2000's over here... because they were limited import, but the price actually went up after the launch with people buying them and then realising they could make a mint by selling again pretty quick...

The thing is, the S2000 is quite desireable, and sold well, but the limited import, plus the general impracticality of the S2000 probably left a lot of people like me who will buy the 8 instead now...

I never bought the S2000 because I didn't really want a convertable, the 2 seats is a bit impractical and the engine is uninteresting. But I LOVE the way it looks, I think the 8 looks ALMOST as good, and in some ways nicer... and ALL my gripes about the S2000 are sorted... I couldn't ask for more.

Originally posted by BlueAdept
You don't see that many S2000's over here... because they were limited import, but the price actually went up after the launch with people buying them and then realising they could make a mint by selling again pretty quick...

The thing is, the S2000 is quite desireable, and sold well, but the limited import, plus the general impracticality of the S2000 probably left a lot of people like me who will buy the 8 instead now...

I never bought the S2000 because I didn't really want a convertable, the 2 seats is a bit impractical and the engine is uninteresting. But I LOVE the way it looks, I think the 8 looks ALMOST as good, and in some ways nicer... and ALL my gripes about the S2000 are sorted... I couldn't ask for more.
Actually I was very taken by the suicide doors... gave me the practicality that I wanted from say.. a G35. But not that damn ugly :P

Besides Mazda has a history of having well balanced cars that handle exceptionally, though their power has always left something to be desired. Anyways, the RX-8 will be a change on the road, a change in my driveway, and a substantial change in what I was going to spend on a similarly equipped BMW 330Ci.

I think I am making the right choice.

First of all, thanks for posting. That was one of the more interesting posts I've read in a while, even though many of the points you've brought up have been discussed in bits and pieces elsewhere. Kudos.

On to your post. You had me until the "pessimist" sentence. Sure, there's a chance that will happen. However, I strongly suspect that if Mazda has hit the mark sitting squarely in front of them, the car magazines will go absolutely ga-ga over the thing. I think that the power will be good enough to compete in whatever class they put it in, and the handling should blow everything else, particularly the other 4-doors, completely out of the water. If that happens, they should sell plenty. If Mazda also gets their advertising campaign going well and gets people to believe that there's nothing else that can match the performance and carry 4 adults short of a 330Ci, they should sell like hotcakes.

Sure, there will be people that think a bloated 3400 lb. (!) 350Z is the end all and be all of performance automobiles under 35k, but there are always those people.

I think there's a market, and if Mazda gets the car right, they should sell a ton. I certainly hope they do, because I really want a 4th gen RX-7!

I agree with Rich, and I'll add this too. Everyone I showed the yellow RX-8 pre-production pictures to fell in love with the car. You should have seen everyone gathered around the monitor in class when we were supposed to be learning AutoCAD (or something). Once this car starts hitting the road and people start to see it, I think that will draw even more people to dealerships. Not many people know about the RX-8 yet (and I enjoy educating them).

Hey there, still a new guy here.
I dont know who said it, but I read in either R+T or Motortrend (sorry, dont know which one) that there actually were plans for a new RX-7. It just all depends on the success of the 8. I cant find the article off hand, so I dont know what the actual differences in the two were, but they did say that if the 8 works out, the 7 will follow!

Originally posted by soon2brx8
Hey there, still a new guy here.
I dont know who said it, but I read in either R+T or Motortrend (sorry, dont know which one) that there actually were plans for a new RX-7. It just all depends on the success of the 8. I cant find the article off hand, so I dont know what the actual differences in the two were, but they did say that if the 8 works out, the 7 will follow!
Yea, there was also a concept design that was essentially the same as the 8.... but with no suicide doors, and the horsepower was beefier. Turboes were still being considered, but all contemplation will lie in the success of the 8 :)

personally i dont want to see many RX8s on the road.. - if i do, i probably wont be buying one (i'm praying for limited production)

- the main reason why many of us like this car is because it's unique, once you start seeing more and more on the road - you'll lose your interest in the car (trust me)

I might me in the minority but I don't care if they make boatloads of RX-8. It will mean cheaper prices, more aftermarket support, part availability, etc. If the car performs as advertised for cheap, I'm getting one.

Wow, a lot of mis-information in here about the 350Z.

Not to mention, the 350Z is running in the 16s in the 1/4 mile!?!?! After second gear, expect it to be all on the 8 and the Renesis. I intend to destroy some 350Zs
Link?
My guess is that car was not past break in period, driver was babying the car or poor driver.
For every Z, you can name running 16's, you can probably find more in the 13's.

Why is Japan copying Detroit? If you think about it, a Mustang GT will probably keep up with the 350Z, it'll probably beat it off the line too. Is it cooler because its japanese? Ford also has a limited edition Mustang that is cheaper than the Cobra, it sells for $28K and has 300+ horsepower, and alot more torque than the 350Z. Weight isnt really an issue since the 350Z is fairly bloated compared to other Japanese cars. I think theres too much hype about the car. Kudos to nissans marketing department for making a so so car into the most anticipated car in a long time. Comparisons with such cars as the SLK, S2000, audi TT, bmw 3 series are obserd, it must be compared to the Mustang of the late camaros of the world.
The Z is not only about power and speed.
You forget that it handles like it's on rails and has a luxurious interior, just to name a few.
Have you sat inside both Camaro's/Mustang's and the new Z? Driven both?
If not, give it shot.
I think you'll retract this paragraph afterwards :D

Sure, there will be people that think a bloated 3400 lb. (!) 350Z is the end all and be all of performance automobiles under 35k, but there are always those people.
Where are you getting 3400?
The heaviest model I see is in the low 3200's and the base model is high 3100.

Unless you're including driver weight...

Originally posted by Quick_lude
I might me in the minority but I don't care if they make boatloads of RX-8. It will mean cheaper prices, more aftermarket support, part availability, etc. If the car performs as advertised for cheap, I'm getting one. Not only that, but if there are boatloads of RX8s out there, then that means that we are that much closer to another RX7 and a rotary Miata.

---jps

psteng, "on rails"???
er, i'm not so sure about that, front end being 6% fo total mass heavier than the rear...
just for simplicity, let's say the car weighs 3200lbs even, and the difference is only 5%... that means the front wheels have 160lbs more car pressing on them... not to mention the understeer reported in SCC:

SCC article on new 350Z (http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0210scc_350znissan/)

heh heh, i especially like this bit:
"Drive it like a chick and the Z feels big and slow to respond. Drive it like a man and it wants to exit every corner ass first."

jesus christ... woo!! what a car!! :p

If you're gonna quote articles, don't present only the bad and leave out the rest of the paragraph.

Our silver test car handled very well, working better the harder we pushed it. On our favorite mountain road, it quickly became clear the 350Z likes to be driven hard. Drive it like a chick and the Z feels big and slow to respond. Drive it like a man and it wants to exit every corner ass first.


On the skidpad, we recorded a strong .88g, and the Z blazed through the slalom in a very quick 70.2 mph.
Pretty decent numbers.

I'm not trying to praise the Z or put down the RX-8.
You guys are bashing the Z, and giving it no respect.

The Z and RX-8 are both great cars... give respect where it's due.

sorry, i don't mean to get so carried away (with the flaming)

those numbers have a questionable meaning, as exact comparison is nearly impossible: conditions, road surface, driver ability, and (most importantly) tyre variations (in contruction, size, and compound) really throw a lot of variation into these numbers (easily a few hundreths of a g, which these days makes the difference between fast cars and super cars)... not totally useless, but they don't mean this car handles well, as these very simple tests do not account for driving dynamics, which my quote points out.

the Z i'm sure is a great car, i love the old 300's, but i just don't think that they handle very well (my ex gf's brother had a '93 NA, and i think it's a really, really nice car to drive in, just not all that fast...)

Originally posted by wakeech
psteng, "on rails"???
er, i'm not so sure about that, front end being 6% fo total mass heavier than the rear...
just for simplicity, let's say the car weighs 3200lbs even, and the difference is only 5%... that means the front wheels have 160lbs more car pressing on them... not to mention the understeer reported in SCC:

SCC article on new 350Z (http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0210scc_350znissan/)

heh heh, i especially like this bit:
"Drive it like a chick and the Z feels big and slow to respond. Drive it like a man and it wants to exit every corner ass first."

jesus christ... woo!! what a car!! :p
I was going to say the same thing.. except that in Car and Driver the reference was made that "this car plows the front end..." and also "there are more tossable cars for this price range."

Considering the fact I'm losing out on a poor interior (sorry no, it's NOT a nice interior.. i sat in it. I liked the seats though, everything else is as cheap as you expect from Nissan, losing two rear seats as compared to the RX-8, trunk space, exterior styling (I like the 8 better, but that's all a matter of opinion, so we won't argue on that one), and ROTARY (torque curve in the 350Z ain't seen nothing till you seen a rotary curve).

I don't see any reason to get a 350Z. The ONLY reason I would want to, is because I would near guarantee that the 350Z will be modded to get faster and faster, but the base handling of the car will always be tail happy and unbalanced, and there's little people can do to change that. The RX-7, Miata, etc... are all examples of Mazda's prowess in the handling department, where the likes of a Protege are compared with a Ferrari and BMW M3 for handling, and actually beats the M3 in a slalom.

Nissan isn't coming close, they are cheaping out too much and their designs are in my mind.. pretty ugly. Considering the fact now that they have SEVEN CARS with the same engine... they could have gave a little more to the customer buying the car by adding higher quality plastics and such for the interior, maybe some different accents here and there, just all around more car for your money.

I'd rather get a 330i than a 350Z, even if the 350Z will beat it in a race.. I'll have a lot more fun and an easier time controlling the 330i which is balanced, beautiful, and well constructed. And sure, it's a few grand more but I'm also paying for the BMW premium.

But I don't want to go near that mark of near 40k, so I'll get the RX-8, and almost undoubtedly experience remarkable handling (as Mazda has been known for), higher build quality than a Nissan (even the Protege is nicer than my Maxima's interior, as far as build quality goes), four seats, a useable trunk, and a sizeable chunk of change left in my pocket.

350Z lovers should really just jump into a Vette for that price, hell... 5 grand more and you'll have a car that's nicer and faster than the 350Z.

I just don't see a point in paying upwards of 30k for a car that's totally unbalanced and ugly.

But of course, this entire reply is to promote and incite debate :) Maybe 350Z lovers can refute me!?! I doubt it though.. :)

I don't think Mazda would be dumb enough to make this car limited production. They're not doing this for kicks, they're making this car to make money, as well as be a new flagship.

The number of limited production cars is dwindling. Companies can't afford to build and sell cars at a loss.

Besides, if the car was limited production, none of us would be able to afford it. What makes a car affordable is that they can spread the cost to build them over many cars.

Wrong. This car is so anticipated that numbers cannot express accurately the extent. This is a car from the most innovative car company out of Japan, no, in the world. When GM, Mercedes and others gave up on developing the rotary engine, Mazda went ahead and perfected it into the now available RX8 engine. Placed this engine in a beautiful body, draped around one of the most inviting interiors in a long while, equipped it with a 6 speed manual tranny powering the rear wheels. This car will sell very well. If I can get one without a price gouge by the dealer, I will get it as soon as it is available. This car WILL SELL. Did I mention that it seats 4 comfortably? Well it does.
Rotary
+4 door
+4 seater
+6 speed manual
+rear drive
+weight only 2970 lbs
+250 horses
= SUCCESS

+ 50:50 Weight Distribution
+ Awesome Looking
+ Good Build Quality (better than any other Mazda, and the Millenia was really good.. better than any Nissan made)
+ Short throw shifter (just look at the pics, TEEENY)
+ In dash 6 CD/MINIDISC! (not for me but its neat hehe)
+ Mazda renowned handling
+ Rotary Torque/HP Curves :D

There's a lot more plusses but hey... let's not spoil it :P

Way to go Hercules!

psteng19, my sincere apologies. I had a brain malfunction. You're right, about 2225 is what Edmunds has for the 3 models I looked at.

However, my error aside, I believe that my point still stands. In the sub-35k performance vehicle market, the 350Z does absolutely nothing for me. I believe that Colin Chapman said it best, "To go faster add lightness". Lightness is not only great for speed, but moreso for the feeling of tossability, fun, and "oneness" one gets from a well design vehicle. At 800 lbs. heavier than a Miata (base versions of both, taken from www.edmunds.com), the thing is horribly overweight. It doesn't even offer any additional practicality over the Miata, since the trunk is about 1 square foot larger. 0-60, skidpad, 1/4 mile, HP, and other stats mean very little to me. I can see nothing remotely interesting about the 350Z. I understand that many people do find the Z intriguing, but it's just not at all what I'm interested in in a car.

Ya know, I have to wait until I see a 350z in person before I can even pass judgement on it's looks, needless to say how it drives. Same thing goes for the RX8. So many cars look different in person than in pictures. Some better, some worse. And the LAST thing that I'm going to do is make a judgement on what a couple of magazine articles have said.

---jps

Since we're discussing the Z, here is a quote I found on a Z dedicated website:

"Weight distribution is 52/48. Nissan engineers intentionally designed the weight to be distributed that way because they believe it improves the car’s handling over 50/50 weight distribution."

(The guy doesn't explain where he got his insight on the 52/48 being better than 50/50.)

I'm nowhere close to being an engineer, but that sounds like a cop-out because Nissan engineers couldn't keep the weight down.

Who knows, maybe someone can enlighten me on the subject.

The idea is that under acceleration forward, weight is transfered to the rear, and the weight is then closer to 50/50. So if you're powering through a curve, a bit of weight is transfered to the back, resulting in more neutral handling.

I'm not sure if I buy it, but I certainly won't dismiss it completely either.

I will say that I used to think the 350Z looked horrible, but someone at work just bought one and it looks much better to me in person. I haven't spent too much time looking at it, but I will tomorrow. I certainly don't think it's close to as hideous as I thought it did in pictures...

Originally posted by Quick_lude
I might me in the minority but I don't care if they make boatloads of RX-8. It will mean cheaper prices, more aftermarket support, part availability, etc. If the car performs as advertised for cheap, I'm getting one.

-dude and you're from the GTA?

Once all that aftermarket crap comes out all those kiddies will be buying the car and making it look retarded. Im surprised you would say something like that after all the negative feedback street racing is getting and coming from an area where every other car is a rice.

NOS - ban it.

Hercules, Donny Boy: Does Mazda = God to you guys?

Originally posted by Immi


-dude and you're from the GTA?

Once all that aftermarket crap comes out all those kiddies will be buying the car and making it look retarded. Im surprised you would say something like that after all the negative feedback street racing is getting and coming from an area where every other car is a rice.

NOS - ban it.

Hercules, Donny Boy: Does Mazda = God to you guys?

Gordon Murray and BMW are far ahead of Mazda right now :)

I just think for the money, the Mazdas out there and coming out are the best buys, and handle exceptionally for their price.

Originally posted by Immi
dude and you're from the GTA?

Once all that aftermarket crap comes out all those kiddies will be buying the car and making it look retarded. Im surprised you would say something like that after all the negative feedback street racing is getting and coming from an area where every other car is a rice.

Well considering this car will be in the upper 30 low 40K price not every tom dick and harry from highschool will have one. They'll keep their riced out $3K Civics. I was talking about "mature" aftermarket support like springs, shocks, coilover kits and engine/exhaust goodies for the more serious enthusiasts. I'm not talking Altezza taillights, or ghetto bodykits.

Originally posted by Hercules
The RX-7, Miata, etc... are all examples of Mazda's prowess in the handling department, where the likes of a Protege are compared with a Ferrari and BMW M3 for handling, and actually beats the M3 in a slalom.
Protege can handle better than an M3? It's mentioned in the same breath as a Ferrari? You gotta be kidding me.. I like Mazdas too but I think you took this too far.. :p

If you kids here are so worried about all the little BS details of the 350z....just wait until the RX-8's arrive and are similarly beaten down with a microscope (what did you think Mazda was immune from bad MAGAZINE reviews??...LMAO). How great can a torque curve REALLY get when it tops at 162 ft/lbs??...anyways, I for one judge cars by how they look and drive in PERSON, not what some potentially biased magazine may have to say....and if your'e your'e all huffy still about the Z, go get a G35 Coupe....that's what I did (same power, much more attractive) - I just hope the RX-8 doesn't blow me away with it's looks (doubtful from photos but like I said you never know until you actually see it)...I'll have to sell my Coupe if it is so. Good luck to all RX's, but you guys need to chill a bit and take things for their worth in the flesh - not how they're written.

Originally posted by Quick_lude

Protege can handle better than an M3? It's mentioned in the same breath as a Ferrari? You gotta be kidding me.. I like Mazdas too but I think you took this too far.. :p
I never said that the MP3 beats the M3 in handling, I just mentioned that a car of that price is mentioned WITH those other great cars, like Ferrari, Lotus, and the M3.

Take a look:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/features/articleDisplay.asp?articleID=220

Originally posted by natev
If you kids here are so worried about all the little BS details of the 350z....just wait until the RX-8's arrive and are similarly beaten down with a microscope (what did you think Mazda was immune from bad MAGAZINE reviews??...LMAO). How great can a torque curve REALLY get when it tops at 162 ft/lbs??...anyways, I for one judge cars by how they look and drive in PERSON, not what some potentially biased magazine may have to say....and if your'e your'e all huffy still about the Z, go get a G35 Coupe....that's what I did (same power, much more attractive) - I just hope the RX-8 doesn't blow me away with it's looks (doubtful from photos but like I said you never know until you actually see it)...I'll have to sell my Coupe if it is so. Good luck to all RX's, but you guys need to chill a bit and take things for their worth in the flesh - not how they're written.
I'll give you the entire post, except let's not start another debate about torque curves :)

Originally posted by Hercules

I never said that the MP3 beats the M3 in handling, I just mentioned that a car of that price is mentioned WITH those other great cars, like Ferrari, Lotus, and the M3.

You said Protege, not the MP3. The MP3 has a very different suspension so it is a different ball game. Nice article.

I'll just look that the history of how well sales have been for Mazda... those are all the numbers I need to judge Mazda's credibility and how well they build their cars. I for one think I'm taking a chance on the RX8.

Bogus statments comparing the protoge and the M3 is just good comedy.

Quick_lude - just take a drive on 407 (and hwy. 7) from woodbine to weston and you'll see atleast 50 Z3s with airplane wings and chinese stickers.

Highway 407!!! is that the highway that cost me about $2.3M in tolls and charges on a recent rental car bill up there in TO? WHat a rip!:mad:
(It was a little less $$$ I think, but it seemed like a lot...)

Originally posted by boowana
Highway 407!!! is that the highway that cost me about $2.3M in tolls and charges on a recent rental car bill up there in TO? WHat a rip!:mad:
(It was a little less $$$ I think, but it seemed like a lot...)

Yeah, but if there is a traffic jam on the 401, and you gotta be somewhere in a hurry, it seems like small change. I'd even pay upwards of $3M. :D

The money doesn't go to the government anymore.

Yeah the 407 is a rip but I still use it.. It's worth for the open road and less traffic.. less headaches.
Regarding the popularity issue.. You can't have it both ways. Either the car is popular and there is tons of aftermarket support, both good or bad.
Or, the car is not popular and there is not aftermarket support leaving people like me to pay through the nose for suspension or brake upgrades.

Originally posted by natev
If you kids here are so worried about all the little BS details of the 350z....just wait until the RX-8's arrive and are similarly beaten down with a microscope (what did you think Mazda was immune from bad MAGAZINE reviews??...LMAO). How great can a torque curve REALLY get when it tops at 162 ft/lbs??...anyways, I for one judge cars by how they look and drive in PERSON, not what some potentially biased magazine may have to say....and if your'e your'e all huffy still about the Z, go get a G35 Coupe....that's what I did (same power, much more attractive) - I just hope the RX-8 doesn't blow me away with it's looks (doubtful from photos but like I said you never know until you actually see it)...I'll have to sell my Coupe if it is so. Good luck to all RX's, but you guys need to chill a bit and take things for their worth in the flesh - not how they're written.
The 350Z is a good car, but for the most of us on this forum.. it's not an option.

It may handle well. Its construction quality *may* be good (though from when I sat in it I'd say otherwise but I digress...). It might be nice to look at (not to me though hehe). It may be fast.

But it doesn't have a back seat. And that there, makes the choice easy between those two cars.

The G35 Coupe or Sedan... I don't care much for either, and in the end the decision between the RX-8 and the G35 is one for each individual buyer. I personally wouldn't get the G35 because it's ugly (to me, this is all in the eye of the beholder), because by next year there will be a million of them on the road, because it's Infiniti, an offshoot of Nissan who has already proven they make great engines and transmissions and leave all the build quality in the toilet. They have had the great fortune of getting the VQ engine in SEVEN DAMN CARS, and to the consumer offer no price benefit as a result of their cost cutting measure. They haven't upped the build quality as they could have, especially when saving so much with the multi-platform engine. Just a rundown now: G35 Sedan, G35 Coupe, 350Z, Altima, Maxima, Pathfinder, and the new Murano all have the same engine.

The RX-8 will handle well. I think it's a given, and will be easily competitive with the 3 series BMW, 350Z, G35, whatever. While the car may not have mind shattering 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, they will be competitive. But the beauty of this engine lies in the 8000-9000RPM rotors spinning round and round, giving equal torque from 3000-9000 RPMS (very well distributed). That's something the 350Z doesn't boast, and the 3 series' inline 6 has gotten many compliments for (though their curves aren't near the RX-8's Renesis), since they have power throughout the RPM spectrum.

Most people looking at the RX-8 are rotary enthusiasts. Most people enjoy the styling of the car, the clever suicide door setup with no b column, the abundance of rear seat room and trunk space, for a car its size. To suggest a G35 or 350Z as an alternative to this car for most people does not make any sense... it's not what we want in a car. Sure it's a nice car for some people (yourself), but for others it is not, and the RX-8 is ideal.

Test drive will say a lot, but I don't think that Mazda is going to spend all this time perfecting the car and then let it suffer due to stupid mistakes. They've had plenty of time to review the 350Z and its shortfalls, the 3 series, etc... and I'm sure they will deliver a knock-out product. That's what I'm hoping on. Mind you, the engineers who designed the Renesis engine and the RX-8 did so on a LOT of their own time. OWN TIME! They work 6, 8, 10 hours a day, then go back to the workbench and work on a rotary design that's truly the most ingenious yet. No other company has that kind of dedication for a platform, and that's why I'm betting dollars to donuts that the RX-8 will please, if not astound reviewers and every person that drives it.

And let's not get into the 'low torque' issue, because there are several people on this forum (not me) that would give ya a verbal bashing for inciting another 'torque riot.' :P

Cheers! :)

Great job Hercules, couldn't have said it any better!

By the way regarding the 'biased magazines'.

I really enjoy how Road and Track rated the Z very well, as well as the G35, and then C&D turn around and give the #1 spot to the 330 over the G35 (it came in fourth last month), had one reviewer saying about the 350Z that he'd rather run down to the Chevy dealer and try to get a Vette over the Z, and plenty of mags (sportscompactcar, C&D, others) have already critisized BOTH the G35 and 350Z for low interior quality materials.

I'm not paying 30k for an engine. I'm paying for a package, a full automobile. The Millenia I own now has a great interior (compared to my Maxima, and other cars), the Mazda6 is already getting nice reviews on the quality of its interior, and the RX-8 according to Mazda is better than any Mazda released in terms of interior quality.

I've no doubt they will use better plastics/materials than the 350Z did. The only thing in the 350Z that felt good was seats when I sat in them. Everything else was so reminsiciently 'Nissanesque'. And I think you get from my tone, that that's a bad thing :)

I just wanna say that i totally agree with you. I saw some pics of the interior of the RX-8 and if its anything like the pics that ive seen then it is a sure winner. The entire package feels very futuristic, tight and well made. By the way, Mazda has been making great interiors these days. WHen i looked at the Protege5 i could tell you that i was more comfortable in it than i was in my BMW, albiet a 95 BMW, but still. The RX-8 will be roughly twice as expensive as the protege so probably an interior that is twice as nice, sounds good to me.

btw, nissan interiors suck, so do hondas.

Originally posted by irresistibo

btw, nissan interiors suck, so do hondas.
You must young and immature to make blanket statements like that.. :rolleyes:

Hercules, posts like that are what make forums like this worthwhile. Thanks for what is, IMHO, one of the best things posted here so far. I couldn't agree more.

Originally posted by Quick_lude

You must young and immature to make blanket statements like that.. :rolleyes:
Honda interiors are boring, but still I believe they are high quality interiors. Honda and Toyota don't cheap out too much (granted they could get better), but they need to work now on their 'boring' factor instead of their quality :)

Originally posted by Rich
Hercules, posts like that are what make forums like this worthwhile. Thanks for what is, IMHO, one of the best things posted here so far. I couldn't agree more.
I only put into words what we all feel :)

My pleasure.

Originally posted by Hercules

Honda interiors are boring, but still I believe they are high quality interiors. Honda and Toyota don't cheap out too much (granted they could get better), but they need to work now on their 'boring' factor instead of their quality :)
That's what I was referring to. What does it mean "interior sucks"? Is it "boring"? Low quality? Badly designed? Imo Honda/Acura interiors for the price are top notch, especially in the design/quality department. Yeah some cars might have boring interiors, whatever that means. :confused: One mans' boring interior is anothers classy understated cockpit. :D

Originally posted by Quick_lude

That's what I was referring to. What does it mean "interior sucks"? Is it "boring"? Low quality? Badly designed? Imo Honda/Acura interiors for the price are top notch, especially in the design/quality department. Yeah some cars might have boring interiors, whatever that means. :confused: One mans' boring interior is anothers classy understated cockpit. :D
Touche :)

Originally posted by Hercules




To suggest a G35 or 350Z as an alternative to this car for most people does not make any sense... it's not what we want in a car. Sure it's a nice car for some people (yourself), but for others it is not, and the RX-8 is ideal.

Cheers! :)

Well said. The RX-8 looks like a sporst car, handles like a sports car, has the performance of a sports car... but it is actually a sedan. It will give the opportunity to many people (like myself :p ) to drive a sporst car without compromising to much practicality. That is the great thing about this car.

Originally posted by irresistibo
btw, nissan interiors suck, so do hondas.

I don't own a nissan, but I do own two hondas. The interiors do NOT suck.

If you find them boring or are jealous of the car - dont get one, no point in teasing fine machinery.

There is a reason why Car and Driver's Top 10 for the last like 10 years have had atleast two honda's in them every year.

This year has what: 3

Originally posted by Immi


I don't own a nissan, but I do own two hondas. The interiors do NOT suck.

If you find them boring or are jealous of the car - dont get one, no point in teasing fine machinery.

There is a reason why Car and Driver's Top 10 for the last like 10 years have had atleast two honda's in them every year.

This year has what: 3
Just went over this :)

The interior doesn't suck, it's just plain and boring. The quality is quite good though, but no Honda can touch the quality of my Millenia's interior.

And if Mazda says that the 6 and RX-8 are getting higher quality than that, I can't wait. Car and Driver mentioned already that the interior of the 6 feels like a BMW. Good praise :)

Originally posted by irresistibo
I just wanna say that i totally agree with you. I saw some pics of the interior of the RX-8 and if its anything like the pics that ive seen then it is a sure winner. The entire package feels very futuristic, tight and well made. By the way, Mazda has been making great interiors these days. WHen i looked at the Protege5 i could tell you that i was more comfortable in it than i was in my BMW, albiet a 95 BMW, but still. The RX-8 will be roughly twice as expensive as the protege so probably an interior that is twice as nice, sounds good to me.

btw, nissan interiors suck, so do hondas.

I do not retract my statement. I drive a Accord EX now, unfortunatly, due to the fact that i go to school 1000 miles away from home, in the middle of nowhere and i dont wanna pay 1000k for simple repairs. So i am speaking from experience. The interior may be ergonomic and functional, very well suited for that purpose, but whats up with the materials? All i see are cheap plastic pieces everywhere and some vinyl. My accord is a 96, and my families 1992 Mazda MPV basically has the same level of materials used in its interior. If you compare current vehicles, a 2002 honda civic does feel cheap compared to a MAzda Protege. Wanna argue with me? First go sit in a Protege then sit in a Civic, the difference is night and day. Sure the Honda may be put together well, but please, the plastics are from the mid 90's and the design sucks. Im sure the new Accords interior is no where near as nice as that of the new 6.

Theres a reason for this, Honda is happy making boring vehicles that outsell everything in its class. People expect that kind of boring styling. Mazda is working on improving its image, so they have to build everything better than its competitors. These companies are out for a profit, Honda is the big dog in the industry and doesnt have to make nice cars, they sell because of the name Honda. Why should they innovate? theirs no reason to and thats why its stuck in a state of myopia.

By the way, have you seen the new Accord? Ugly!

Nissan just smells funny to me for some reason, i dont like them. Every nissan car ive sat in feels american.

Originally posted by irresistibo


I do not retract my statement. I drive a Accord EX now, unfortunatly, due to the fact that i go to school 1000 miles away from home, in the middle of nowhere and i dont wanna pay 1000k for simple repairs. So i am speaking from experience. The interior may be ergonomic and functional, very well suited for that purpose, but whats up with the materials? All i see are cheap plastic pieces everywhere and some vinyl. My accord is a 96, and my families 1992 Mazda MPV basically has the same level of materials used in its interior. If you compare current vehicles, a 2002 honda civic does feel cheap compared to a MAzda Protege. Wanna argue with me? First go sit in a Protege then sit in a Civic, the difference is night and day. Sure the Honda may be put together well, but please, the plastics are from the mid 90's and the design sucks. Im sure the new Accords interior is no where near as nice as that of the new 6.

Theres a reason for this, Honda is happy making boring vehicles that outsell everything in its class. People expect that kind of boring styling. Mazda is working on improving its image, so they have to build everything better than its competitors. These companies are out for a profit, Honda is the big dog in the industry and doesnt have to make nice cars, they sell because of the name Honda. Why should they innovate? theirs no reason to and thats why its stuck in a state of myopia.

By the way, have you seen the new Accord? Ugly!

Nissan just smells funny to me for some reason, i dont like them. Every nissan car ive sat in feels american.
One thing that Honda has done well for the last 15 years or so, is to NEVER mess up their image.

If they go for too much, they don't appeal to many buyers. If they go for too little they don't appeal. I think that Honda makes VERY calculated design changes, because their past 15 years of being #1 sellers reflects that.

While I personally think the new Accord is ugly, there will be HORDES of people to buy one, because it's a Honda, it's reliable, and wow look.. it's a change from what they have now! It's simply moving up the evolutionary Honda ladder.

While boring, it still provides the function over the form, and that has been Honda's bread and butter for some time.

Originally posted by Hercules

Just went over this :)

The interior doesn't suck, it's just plain and boring. The quality is quite good though, but no Honda can touch the quality of my Millenia's interior.

I know this had already been discussed - I had the urge to say something - don't I?!


What Honda are you comparing your 30, 000 USD Millenia to? Atleast make a realistic comparison - an accord is atleast 6000 dollars cheaper. Dude, I own a TL and I'll guarentee you that the interior destroys your Millenia, not only that - but in every comparison possible.

You guys give to much false credit to Mazda - they haven't had a good history in sales and were recently on the brink of bankruptcy.

*note - I only care for the RX8 - cause its kick ass - I don't care about Mazda's other line up*

Originally posted by Immi


I know this had already been discussed - I had the urge to say something - don't I?!


What Honda are you comparing your 30, 000 USD Millenia to? Atleast make a realistic comparison - an accord is atleast 6000 dollars cheaper. Dude, I own a TL and I'll guarentee you that the interior destroys your Millenia, not only that - but in every comparison possible.

You guys give to much false credit to Mazda - they haven't had a good history in sales and were recently on the brink of bankruptcy.

*note - I only care for the RX8 - cause its kick ass - I don't care about Mazda's other line up*
30k for a Millenia? Are you on crack? 21k out the door.

And the interior in that car is better than any 21k car you can show me.

Originally posted by Hercules

30k for a Millenia? Are you on crack? 21k out the door.

And the interior in that car is better than any 21k car you can show me.
Are you sure about that? Afair the Millenia in Canada was about $35-40K which is comparable to an Acura TL and not the Accord which is about $25-32 right now.

Originally posted by Quick_lude

Are you sure about that? Afair the Millenia in Canada was about $35-40K which is comparable to an Acura TL and not the Accord which is about $25-32 right now.
Positive. With dealer incentives and rebates (which have been on for a year on this car), you can get this car CHEAP.

That's why it's so much better than the other cars in its price range.. if you want to judge it based on class yea, it will lose. Mazda didn't put the bucks up for that car and it was slow, and comparitevely missing a lot.

Originally posted by Hercules

30k for a Millenia? Are you on crack? 21k out the door.

And the interior in that car is better than any 21k car you can show me.

On crack eh - than the people at carpoint, car and driver must all be on crack.

I took the list price (which 99.99999% of the people get it for) and used that to compare the two cars. WITH OUT A DOUBT - the TL is a way better comparison to the Millenia than the Accord is.

Even if you want to compare the two cars - I don't see the Millenia winning any awards!

Don't forget man - we're talking about a Mazda here.

Originally posted by Immi


On crack eh - than the people at carpoint, car and driver must all be on crack.

I took the list price (which 99.99999% of the people get it for) and used that to compare the two cars. WITH OUT A DOUBT - the TL is a way better comparison to the Millenia than the Accord is.

Even if you want to compare the two cars - I don't see the Millenia winning any awards!

Don't forget man - we're talking about a Mazda here.
My best friend has a TL he just got... I'd say the the Millenia's interior QUALITY is just as good if not better than the TLs. Granted, the TL's layout is a bit better, but as far as the materials that were used to make it.. I'd say Mazda used higher quality plastics and such, but the radio is SO ugly..

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/comparison/2001/luxury_sedan/millenia/01.mazda.millenias.int.500.jpg

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com/media/roadtests/comparison/2001/luxury_sedan/tl/01.acura.tltypes.int.500.jpg

The objective opinion that both are have their own style, and difficult to tell the difference between them except the color of the materals. According to one Chinese magazien, Mazda will do the best every car they produced in future because Mazda only has 2% selling market in the United States. Especially, the RX-8, and it the Mazda's RED CARD. :D

Let me first admit that I own a 350Z, so I can't claim a totally unbiased opinion as I've driven one (unlike many of you who).

I spend a lot of time on car-related forums, mostly 350Z and bimmer (E46). It is my opinion that the opinions on this forum would be more founded if a) you had actually driven a 350Z and b) you left out all the diatribes and dogma. Blanket anti-Nissan statements and obvious RX-x fanaticism don't prove any points.

Look at the 350Z forums (http://www.my350z.com (my350z for example))): note how the opinions on the car are objective and are lacking the nauseating dogma of your "opinions." If the people in this thread are the kind of people considered RX-8 enthusiasts, then I am even more elated to be a part of a more objective, rational, and mature community.

Enjoy your car!

:D

To all those who fault the Z for it's 53/47 weight dist, you should really look into the facts behind those numbers. It was designed that way purposely to rival the bmw 330ci style 50/50 wieght dist. This link may help explain it to you:

"Its well-balanced 53/47 distribution puts weight on the front tires when turning into a corner, but naturally transfers it rearward during acceleration for a 50/50 split. It has a wide (60.4-inch) track and long (104.3-inch) wheelbase to further reduce pitch, squat and roll. The suspension is mostly aluminum, and "ripple control" shocks dampen small bumps. "The concept of sport driving has been redefined," says Mizuno. "This is the ride of the 21st century."


http://www.popsci.com/popsci/bown/article/0,16106,387676,00.html (Popular Science Article on the 350Z)

That may be true zeroday, but unfortunately instead of achieving that which they claim, every review says it understeers instead.

Originally posted by Hercules
That may be true zeroday, but unfortunately instead of achieving that which they claim, every review says it understeers instead.

http://www.epinions.com/content_77601148548

"Traction in this car is a non-issue, pushing hard on the upstate NY backroads, I was extremely impressed with the initial bite both traction and steering - I experienced nearly no understeer except in extreme opposing weight entry situations hard on the gas - a quick tap on the stoppers into the next corner was all she needed - excellent reassurance of the dedication of the high performance rubber and the precision of the Nissan suspension package. "

http://www.nctd.com/printversion-review.cfm?ReviewID=1303

"The Z feels taut and well controlled. It really stuck when accelerating through fast sweepers on California's Palos Verdes Peninsula. The steering is sharp and accurate and the Z changes directions brilliantly in transient maneuvers, without excessive understeer turning in or sloppy oversteer coming out. Cornering is flat, without much body lean. "

My point is in part, that you really shouldn't say 'every' review, because it's just not true. I notice alot of blanket statements like that in this thread. People should stick to the facts instead of making generalizations. As an owner of the car, I haven't noticed anything less than stellar performance in the corners if you know how to drive the car. I've driven s2000's, BMW m3's, and a few porsche 996's, and the Z can hang with the best of them in the turns. IMO it handles differently than a 50/50 car (however arguably better), but that takes some getting used to; something that some reviewers probably didn't have the time or desire to do.

Seriously guys; I don't even understand HOW in the bloody hell you got the numbers that say a 350Z runs 16 second 1/4's. I run a 280ZX, 1979 model with an engine in piss-poor condition cos it'd been neglected for years before I got it, but the 280ZX, non turbo and unmodded runs mid 16's. Post BPU mods, it's down to high 14's. It's a heavy car; 3200 lbs, to be precise; and running under 200 hp. Stick a 300 hp engine into a body that's under 4000 lbs, you're still going to haul ass; and a 350Z is NOT heavy.

I have a lot of respect for Mazda and their use of the Wankel engine; but you guys are giving the RX8 a bad name already by just sitting around and talking about cars you undoubtably have NEVER driven; the RX8 isn't out, and the Nissan Dealers aren't allowing test drives till you put 1k down.

And as for the marketing campaign, let's see Mazda do something like "THE RUN" done for the RX8, or the rumored new RX-7

Anyway I'm done here.
Try and keep it real guys;
I mean really, I respect the RX8 for its FR platform. Rather than trying to slander the 350Z, why don't we focus on the true enemy: THE FRONT WHEEL DRIVE PLATFORM. Any car that has FF sucks. And will ALWAYS suck. Regardless of what it's running under the hood, it's still going to suck. Sorry, Honda.

Peace, and keep driving Rear wheel drive!

I think this car looks killer. First I was kinda feeling as if this car wasn't powerful enough, but I dont really care about that anymore because I rather have the cool interior and the fairly decent power rather than a car that I can only enjoy for its engine. Besides with a new intake and an intercooler ill be able to take on anyone, well maybe not anyone. The rotary engine sounds awesome and I cant wait to rev it up to 9000 RPM :).

-_- the RX8's renesis is N/A for reliability reasons.
Have fun blowing your RX-8 with too much boost.
(going beyond redline is just STUPID. don't do it.)

Front wheel drive is EVIL and must be wiped from the earth.

Why did these Z enthusiasts decide to stir up a 5 month old thread?

---jps

I wasnt planning to go past redline since redline is at 9000 RPM... :/ Rotary technicians also said the engine was designed to take boost...

Originally posted by zeroday

I've driven s2000's, BMW m3's, and a few porsche 996's, and the Z can hang with the best of them in the turns.


Your right. The new March Road and Track just tested a Z track edition vs a 'Vette Z06, M3 SMGII and a 911 Targa. The lap times are:
Z - 1:40.06
Z06- 1:36.5
M3 - 1:40.09
911- 1:40.79

PS Some of us here do appreciate the Z also.

Sputnik, I was kinda wondering the same thing. If you want a Z, buy a Z. If you want an 8, buy an 8. Does it REALLY matter what anyone else thinks anyway?

I agree. I think the problem is that there are some aspects of the Z that we would like (torque) and some things the 8 has that Z owners would covet (back seats, styling, interior). Anybody that drops 30k wants to feel like they got a great deal on a unique and superior car. Trouble is that it is human nature to make youself feel more positive about your choice by finding fault with the alternative you passed up. I am sure either car will be fun as hell and get you chicks (or dudes as the case may be). Relax and enjoy, we are all getting kewl toys.
:D :D :D

it doesn't matter if it's the z or the 8. they are both great cars. don't hate or flame other cars because you're not buying it. personally i prefer the 8, but the z is still a great car. turn the tcs off and 99.9% of you guys will never be able to drive it at it's full potential. just love the cars. they're all cars, and as a car enthusiast, i love both the z and the 8. i do have somewhat of a problem with the mustang, but only becuase it was not developed with the kind of spirit and care that was put into the z and the 8. the mustang sells no matter what, so the developers didn't need to put effort into it. the z and the 8, on the other hand, had something to prove. don't hate just because.

Hey, I think a ton of spirit and care was put into the Mustang. Problem might be that the majority of that effort was back in 1964...

Originally posted by L28E_280ZX
...sitting around and talking about cars you undoubtably have NEVER driven; the RX8 isn't out, and the Nissan Dealers aren't allowing test drives till you put 1k down...

Maybe where you live but around here they are letting serious perspective buyers test them. I drove it a couple times as well as the G35. No I haven't had the pleasure of driving the RX8 yet. That's why I am holding off on buying anything at this point. I think the RX8 may be the best of both (350Z and G35) and a little extra thrown in. The RX8 will be here in a few months and the dealers will still have Z's and G's, so no hurry.

Then we can all still have our own opinions, although a little more educated, and continue debating anyway.


PS: don't apologize to Honda they do have the S2000 :-)

Originally posted by BitTwiddler
It is my opinion that the opinions on this forum would be more founded if a) you had actually driven a 350Z and b) you left out all the diatribes and dogma. Blanket anti-Nissan statements and obvious RX-x fanaticism don't prove any points.

Look at the 350Z forums (http://www.my350z.com (my350z for example))): note how the opinions on the car are objective and are lacking the nauseating dogma of your "opinions." If the people in this thread are the kind of people considered RX-8 enthusiasts, then I am even more elated to be a part of a more objective, rational, and mature community.

Enjoy your car!

:D

True, I agreed. All those things would make any forum better and i support objective, rational, and mature threads. But the truth is that you also cannot generalize about rx8forum.com. We have our share of objective, rational, mature members and threads.

my350z.com is far from a perfect forum (only a dream... :o) that you make it out to be. As you said, there are many many objective and rational threads on that forum, but there are also many assholes who do what we do here to the 350z. Statements like "rx-8 is one the ugliest cars" and "mazdas are japanese fords" can be found in many threads in response to rx-8 praise.

I agree with you that we shouldn't generalize, but rx8forum is not the only one guilty of that. I say get the car you will enjoy as YOU will be the one driving!

Originally posted by zeroday
My point is in part, that you really shouldn't say 'every' review, because it's just not true. I notice alot of blanket statements like that in this thread. People should stick to the facts instead of making generalizations. As an owner of the car, I haven't noticed anything less than stellar performance in the corners if you know how to drive the car. I've driven s2000's, BMW m3's, and a few porsche 996's, and the Z can hang with the best of them in the turns. IMO it handles differently than a 50/50 car (however arguably better), but that takes some getting used to; something that some reviewers probably didn't have the time or desire to do.
That's fine, but you posted reviews from first, ePinions which is useless to get a good review, and the second I'd never heard of so I won't comment on that.

But in the magazines that matter, Car and Driver, Road and Track, CAR, Evo, Top Gear... they echo the same thing. And you can bet that the drivers in those magazines have LOTS of lap time, lots of driving school time, and lots of experience on judging it. I would make a decision based on Car and Driver's review over ePinions any day.

And besides, I've already posted something about this so let me repeat it here..

The 350Z is a good car, but for the most of us on this forum.. it's not an option.

It may handle well. Its construction quality *may* be good (though from when I sat in it I'd say otherwise but I digress...). It might be nice to look at (not to me though hehe). It may be fast.

But it doesn't have a back seat. And that there, makes the choice easy between those two cars.

The G35 Coupe or Sedan... I don't care much for either, and in the end the decision between the RX-8 and the G35 is one for each individual buyer. I personally wouldn't get the G35 because it's ugly (to me, this is all in the eye of the beholder), because by next year there will be a million of them on the road, because it's Infiniti, an offshoot of Nissan who has already proven they make great engines and transmissions and leave all the build quality in the toilet. They have had the great fortune of getting the VQ engine in SEVEN DAMN CARS, and to the consumer offer no price benefit as a result of their cost cutting measure. They haven't upped the build quality as they could have, especially when saving so much with the multi-platform engine. Just a rundown now: G35 Sedan, G35 Coupe, 350Z, Altima, Maxima, Pathfinder, and the new Murano all have the same engine.

The RX-8 will handle well. I think it's a given, and will be easily competitive with the 3 series BMW, 350Z, G35, whatever. While the car may not have mind shattering 0-60 or 1/4 mile times, they will be competitive. But the beauty of this engine lies in the 8000-9000RPM rotors spinning round and round, giving equal torque from 3000-9000 RPMS (very well distributed). That's something the 350Z doesn't boast, and the 3 series' inline 6 has gotten many compliments for (though their curves aren't near the RX-8's Renesis), since they have power throughout the RPM spectrum.

Most people looking at the RX-8 are rotary enthusiasts. Most people enjoy the styling of the car, the clever suicide door setup with no b column, the abundance of rear seat room and trunk space, for a car its size. To suggest a G35 or 350Z as an alternative to this car for most people does not make any sense... it's not what we want in a car. Sure it's a nice car for some people (yourself), but for others it is not, and the RX-8 is ideal.

Test drive will say a lot, but I don't think that Mazda is going to spend all this time perfecting the car and then let it suffer due to stupid mistakes. They've had plenty of time to review the 350Z and its shortfalls, the 3 series, etc... and I'm sure they will deliver a knock-out product. That's what I'm hoping on. Mind you, the engineers who designed the Renesis engine and the RX-8 did so on a LOT of their own time. OWN TIME! They work 6, 8, 10 hours a day, then go back to the workbench and work on a rotary design that's truly the most ingenious yet. No other company has that kind of dedication for a platform, and that's why I'm betting dollars to donuts that the RX-8 will please, if not astound reviewers and every person that drives it.

And let's not get into the 'low torque' issue, because there are several people on this forum (not me) that would give ya a verbal bashing for inciting another 'torque riot.' :P

Cheers! :)

Originally posted by Hercules
But in the magazines that matter, Car and Driver, Road and Track, CAR, Evo, Top Gear... they echo the same thing.There's an interesting comment in the 350Z Long Term Test in the latest Road & Track (March 2003, pp104-106):Something else that caught our attention was the car's handling around the skidpad. In counterclockwise laps, it displayed good balance overall with just a slight touch of understeer. But in-car weight changes its demeanor considerably. Rounding the circle clockwise, with the driver now positioned on the outside, the car demonstrated noticeably greater understeer.

Hello,

I saw this thread over at my350Z.com and I thought you might be interested in a couple things, although this specific thread may not be the best place for the info. You probably have others floating around with similar info, but I'm a lazy bastard so here it goes:

I was at Laguna Seca last thursday and friday for a Speed Ventures trackday, and Road & Track showed up with an RX-8 for a photoshoot.

The car drew a huge crowd, looked...interesting (I still can't get over the extra doors) and even went for some laps around the track.

I got to sit inside, and the front seats were very nice. The specific model had two-tone leather seats, very simlar to the Z's, but colored in red and black. The rear seats were made for two people, and had a permanent center console between them. I didn't mess around too much, because I didn't want to piss anyone off, but the interior of the car was very nice. I didn't like the layout of the controls as much as I like the layout in my Z, but the quality seemed to be there. One thing that dissapointed me a bit, was that there was very little legroom in the back seats (probably 4 inches). Now the front seats were back pretty far, to where I couldn't push the clutch all the way in, but I'm only 5' 10 or so, so I doubt there would be much more than 7 inches in the back seats. The rear seats were very well shaped though, so maybe the lack of legroom isn't too critical, since most of the leg will fit on the seat anyway. The trunk wasn't very large, but as a Z owner, who am I to complain about that. The Z's hatch is good for long, wide, but flat things, while the 8 seemed good for a big cube. I've found the Z's hatch to be very usable, but the 8's is probably a bit moreso. One other thing about the styling that was pretty cool, was the frequency with which Mazda used the "rotor" theme. From the holes in the front seat headrests, to the shape of the shift knob and steeering wheel, to the holes in the front and rear air damns, the Wankel Rotor was all over. I personally thought it was pretty cool.

The tires were 225/45-18 on the front and back, and were Bridgestone Potenza RE040's, the same as those that are standard on the Z (and which many Z owners complain about, although I have not had any specific problems with them).

The engine conpartment of the 8 was a bit dissapointing to me, since it was basically covered in plasitc, with the tiny rotary buried deep within. After seeing the very tight spaces in the Z's engine bay, it was a little nice to see some extra room, even if it was hidden by large peices of plastic shrouding (maybe some weight reduction potential, eh..hehe)

The 8 was going nuts around the track, but was not being timed, so I didn't get to have an idea on how it compared with the Z. It definitely sounded great, and I bet it will be slightly better balanced than the Z as well (although changing tires on either car could make the balance a non-issue).



Anyhow, to me, the 8 was really cool to see, and I think Mazda will do very well with it. I hope many, many of you buy one, so that Mazda will bring back the 7 and I can get one of those (I'm partial to two seaters).

Take care!

-D'oh!

Quoting myself-

"I test drove a 350Z. It's very nice, but not for the 38K they were charging for it (track version). Oddly, I test drove an WRX and thought it was just as quick, and the handling was on par too. The suspension is nice on the 350Z, very little body roll, but it still pushed. The WRX pushed as well but seemed to be more stable, the AWD certainly helps. I tested them on tight mountain roads. Granted the WRX's interior isn't as nice, then again the price difference is 12K. As far as track performance, I think the RX-8 will win hands down. We'll find out in a few months or so.

Rob"

350Z is a nice car, just too expensive IMHO.

Originally posted by TJRX8
PS: don't apologize to Honda they do have the S2000 :-) They have the NSX too.Originally posted by D'oh
...I saw this thread over at my350Z.com... I suspected as much.

---jps

I currently have a Titanium RX-8 (Grand Touring) on order so I may be a little biased, but I test drove the 350Z twice and I have some opinions on it. Both runs were in a track model.

Let me start by saying, I LIKE THE 350Z ALOT. My wife and I had check book in hand, ready to order one. I decided not to after some thinking, and I will tell you why:

1)Price. The touring model of the 350 starts at $33,700.00. That is WITHOUT the DVD Nav. It is fair to compare this to the Grand Touring RX-8, because both packages come with Xenon headlamps, Bose stereo, and leather.The RX-8 Grand Touring WITH the DVD Nav tops out at $33,100. I personally did not get the DVD Nav so my RX-8 fully loaded was $31,100. So for starters the RX-8 was $2600 cheaper.

2)Functionality. I really like the Z, but I didn't like the idea of only two seats and (almost) no trunk area.

3)Interior. While I did like the quality and styling of the seats in the 350, I did not like some of the plastic buttons or the door panels.

5)Engine. The 350 was fast, but it seemed to vibrate substantialy when pushed to the limit. I have been told that there is almost no vibration in the RX-8.

Since I was only on a test drive, I did not get to ride hard into any corners so I cannot comment on the handling.

I was 1 pen slash away from ordering a 350Z and I stopped myself for those reasons. It may also interest all of you to know that I had not even looked into the RX-8 at the time when I test drove the 350. :)

I personally wouldn't get the G35 because it's ugly (to me, this is all in the eye of the beholder), because by next year there will be a million of them on the road,

They are only importing 12,000 G35 coupes a year. The RX8 is supposed to be in the 30,000 range. I'm still getting the 8 regardless, just wanted to correct you as it seems this thread is full of (among other things :-)

PS: I hope the 8 womps the Z as an all around car, that's what I am interested in.

Originally posted by TJRX8


They are only importing 12,000 G35 coupes a year. The RX8 is supposed to be in the 30,000 range. I'm still getting the 8 regardless, just wanted to correct you as it seems this thread is full of (among other things :-)

PS: I hope the 8 womps the Z as an all around car, that's what I am interested in. Two more seats, more attractive price/styling, better materials and handling that by all accounts is excellent.

Even if the Z makes it around the track faster (which I don't think will happen, but anyway), will you still be able to haul four people, two suitcases, and pay 5 grand less?

Don't think so.

Sheesh, you can haul 4 people, 2 suitcases in a 350z, it will just take 3 trips :D

Originally posted by Hercules
Two more seats, more attractive price/styling, better materials and handling that by all accounts is excellent.
Even if the Z makes it around the track faster (which I don't think will happen, but anyway), will you still be able to haul four people, two suitcases, and pay 5 grand less?
Don't think so.


Not sure why you quoted me??? This is exactly what I meant when I said "all around car".

Originally posted by TJRX8



Not sure why you quoted me??? This is exactly what I meant when I said "all around car". Just restating the obvious :)

Originally posted by Hercules
Two more seats, more attractive price/styling, better materials and handling that by all accounts is excellent.

Even if the Z makes it around the track faster (which I don't think will happen, but anyway), will you still be able to haul four people, two suitcases, and pay 5 grand less?

Don't think so.

Jesus H. Christ. I came here as a friendly observer a couple of months ago, but you REALLY need to lay off the Mazda Kool-Aid, man. You should stop while you're ahead in building the 8 into some kind of Super Car that it WILL NOT be. You're only setting yourself up for dissappointment if you insist on going down this road.

Why don't you wait until an actual test comes out before you continue to make this asinine sh*t up. I like the 8 and think it's a pretty cool car, but 350Zs everywhere will not hesitate for a minute to show anyone of you what REAL TORQUE at 2K RPM means on the street if you continue this delusional self-fluffing.

Originally posted by droidekaus
Why don't you wait until an actual test comes out before you continue to make this asinine sh*t up. I like the 8 and think it's a pretty cool car, but 350Zs everywhere will not hesitate for a minute to show anyone of you what REAL TORQUE at 2K RPM means on the street if you continue this delusional self-fluffing. Save it for the track man!

absolutely amazing.
you know, it really doesn't matter if which car is faster on the track. trust me when i say that almost none of us are good enough drivers that it will matter in any significant amount. they're both good cars, and if you insist on arguing which car is better just know that for everyday driving, and even on the track, it will make almost no difference (unless you're a professional driver which i'm sure almost none of you are). I'm getting the 8, and i don't care if the z or the 8 is faster, cuz if you look at the big picture, it won't make a large difference.

Originally posted by Rotary Soul
absolutely amazing.
you know, it really doesn't matter if which car is faster on the track. trust me when i say that almost none of us are good enough drivers that it will matter in any significant amount. they're both good cars, and if you insist on arguing which car is better just know that for everyday driving, and even on the track, it will make almost no difference (unless you're a professional driver which i'm sure almost none of you are). I'm getting the 8, and i don't care if the z or the 8 is faster, cuz if you look at the big picture, it won't make a large difference.

You're obivously a rational owner-to-be, whereas Herc just drones on and on about how perfect the 8 will be and that it will be the ultimate car. He's delusional. Mazda WILL f**k something up and dissappoint quite a few of you. COUNT ON IT!

You're obivously a rational owner-to-be, whereas Herc just drones on and on about how perfect the 8 will be
You know droidekaus, I also enjoy rational objectivity, so here's a little more for you...
Mazda WILL f**k something up and dissappoint quite a few of you. COUNT ON IT!

And don't forget:

but 350Zs everywhere will not hesitate for a minute to show anyone of you what REAL TORQUE at 2K RPM means on the street if you continue this delusional self-fluffing.
Here's the objectivity I promised: It seems to me that you are just as guilty of "self-fluffing". Talking about your big ol' superior *cough* torque. Boy, I'm impressed. Did you impress yourself when you said that? I see both you and Herc drinking big tall glasses of Nissan/Mazda kool-aid respectively, as you have put it.

That said, there is nothing wrong with drinking glasses of your favorite kool-aid. It's just like cheering on your favorite sports team: Your team may or may not be the best this year, but it doesn't keep you from wearing a big "we're number 1" foam finger, does it? Herc has decided that his team is Mazda, and he's got his foam finger on. And you have your Nissan finger on. Please continue your Z vs. RX discussion as there is nothing wrong with it, but putting Herc down for being fanatical is a bit hypocritic, don't you think?

Where do we sign up for the foam fingers???
:D

Originally posted by RedRotaryRocket

Please continue your Z vs. RX discussion as there is nothing wrong with it, but putting Herc down for being fanatical is a bit hypocritic, don't you think?

Agreed! :D Remember we have a great car coming and its not wrong to be proud of it. But i dont think Herc is fanatical, he never said the car would outrun ferraris did he? Now if you think that he is fanatical just because he said the 8 will outrun or keep up with the Z, then you are being fanatical about the Z cuz it will not BLOW the 8 away. Maybe faster but not DESTROY

About the 8, I think Toadman put it best:

You gotta love it when a still-born project comes along designed "outside the box", that leaves the press scratching their heads. It's called innovation.

It can lay the smack on most performance sedans in it's current form, yet is still balked at in a direct comparison to SPORTS coupes. Quite a quandary(word of the day).

The Z, on the other hand, is a SPORTS car (not saying good or bad just stating a fact)

Originally posted by RedRotaryRocket

You know droidekaus, I also enjoy rational objectivity, so here's a little more for you...

Here's the objectivity I promised: It seems to me that you are just as guilty of "self-fluffing". Talking about your big ol' superior *cough* torque. Boy, I'm impressed. Did you impress yourself when you said that? I see both you and Herc drinking big tall glasses of Nissan/Mazda kool-aid respectively, as you have put it.

That said, there is nothing wrong with drinking glasses of your favorite kool-aid. It's just like cheering on your favorite sports team: Your team may or may not be the best this year, but it doesn't keep you from wearing a big "we're number 1" foam finger, does it? Herc has decided that his team is Mazda, and he's got his foam finger on. And you have your Nissan finger on. Please continue your Z vs. RX discussion as there is nothing wrong with it, but putting Herc down for being fanatical is a bit hypocritic, don't you think?

Actually, I have no brand loyalty. This is my first Nissan and while I'm not blown away by Nissan quality and their dealer network, the Z is alright until something better comes along. As far as my torque comments, it's a simple fact that torque = go = fun. Staying in fourth gear down to 1200 RPM is a relaxing way to commute. That's a function of the torque on tap that the Z has. Is that the only way to drive? Hell no. I also enjoy "momentum" driving my wife's Civic and revving the sh*t out of it, but how many times can you drop the clutch at 5K before something starts to go wrong? Ask the S2K guys. I can launch ALL DAY in the Z because I'm only revving to 2K, otherwise I'll smoke the tires. Again, that's torque.

I go out of my way to single out Herc because he always wants to take jabs at and compare the Z to the 8 when he shouldn't be comparing a two-seat sports car to a niche-busting RX-8.

Here's a gloomy prediction for the comparision tests... a well driven RSX-S will give an RX-8 fits.

Originally posted by droidekaus

I go out of my way to single out Herc because he always wants to take jabs at and compare the Z to the 8 when he shouldn't be comparing a two-seat sports car to a niche-busting RX-8.

Here's a gloomy prediction for the comparision tests... a well driven RSX-S will give an RX-8 fits.

Now who is comparing a niche-busting RX-8 to a sports coupe?

Why you insist one putting down the 8. Yes, it is "niche-busting" but everyone at the "torque camp" puts down the 8 as something of an obese and torqueless S2000 == sub standard performance. Even if they dont say it directly, its often implied

The torque debate has been beaten to death on this forum. If you like "kick in the butt" driving then good for you but dont put the 8 down cuz you dont like "momentum driving" or whatever.

Again, as i've been repeating, this goes for us as well. We shouldn't be putting down the Z's weight and handling. Saying things like "Z is a porky wannabe car" will only make Z supporters mad. Compare all you like, just leave out the rhetoric

Originally posted by droidekaus


Actually, I have no brand loyalty. This is my first Nissan and while I'm not blown away by Nissan quality and their dealer network, the Z is alright until something better comes along. As far as my torque comments, it's a simple fact that torque = go = fun. Staying in fourth gear down to 1200 RPM is a relaxing way to commute. That's a function of the torque on tap that the Z has. Is that the only way to drive? Hell no. I also enjoy "momentum" driving my wife's Civic and revving the sh*t out of it, but how many times can you drop the clutch at 5K before something starts to go wrong? Ask the S2K guys. I can launch ALL DAY in the Z because I'm only revving to 2K, otherwise I'll smoke the tires. Again, that's torque.

I go out of my way to single out Herc because he always wants to take jabs at and compare the Z to the 8 when he shouldn't be comparing a two-seat sports car to a niche-busting RX-8.

Here's a gloomy prediction for the comparision tests... a well driven RSX-S will give an RX-8 fits.

Fair enough...it just seemed to me you were being a little rough on Herc given your own recent statements, so I felt like posting. As long as we are all civil with each other, I support these comparison type threads as there can be a lot learned.

As for the torque thing, you'll notice I put a "*cough*" in my obviously sarcastic comment about the 350Z's torque curve being superior. Believe it or not, the quality of the RX-8's torque curve is about equal to that of the Z. I've actually looked at several 350Z torque curves (including a dyno run of your car posted on my350Z.com) and they are very similar. The only thing is, I can't seem to find a curve for the Z that goes below 2200 RPM or so. If you know where I could find one, I'd love to get a link. Anyway, torque and it's effect on acceleration is a much more subtle relationship than peak numbers and the RPM would suggest. Subsequently, the torque in the RX-8 is entirely different from that in an S2000. Indeed, press feedback from the Laguna Seca test day indicated that the best launch RPM on the RX-8 seemed to be around 3000 RPM, nothing like a clutch busting S2000...that's because the torque curve is much more like the Z. This can be further supported by the press estimates of a 6.0 or possibly less 0-60 time. Z's won't be running away from RX-8s too easily, and unless a well driven RSX-S gives a Z fits too, it won't bother the 8 much.

I am really serious about the Z torque curve. If you know where I can find one that shows the curve well below 2000 RPM, let me know.

Thanks droidekaus, for the compliments.

Thus far I'm excited about the car because it's met every expectation I've had. I didn't expect to see a rip-roaring fast car like the 350Z, and I never said that the RX-8 would keep up in a straight line. In fact in another thread I mentioned the fact that even if the Z made better track times consistently than the RX-8, it still lacks two rear seats and a useable trunk.

As per your comments, it's obvious you are a 'racer boi'. The reason you have the Z is because it's eye catching, and so you can race at stoplights against your moron friends. Good for you. I've no interest in that and if it came down to it, you'd definately beat me at your stoplight racing.

As per Mazda fucking up, I have my doubts as well. Look at the Mazda6, delivered perfectly as it should be. While I don't want that car, it is a compliment to Mazda's design and production team to make sure everything came out the way it was planned; I expect no less from the RX-8. In fact Mazda knows it too, and they can't mess up if they want to stay competitive.

If you REALLY want to talk about comparisons, I'll make a judgment right now... the next RX-7 will BLOW AWAY the 350Z. And provided the price is right... the Z and RX-7 should be spot on.

I like the 350Z, its shape has grown on me over some time, and after driving it a few times (my friend is a Nissan dealer). It's got loads of power, and great seats but does have quite a bit of understeer. The interior looks good in pictures but up close doesn't cut it.

And like I said, it doesn't have back seats. I'm not making the RX-8 into a supercar; I just said that when it comes to a TRACK (something you have obviously no clue about, because I don't know WHEN you will hit 2k RPMs..), the RX-8 will stay competitive with the Z, and for me that's more than good. I still have saved a chunk of change over the Z, gotten a much more innovative car (and nobody can deny that, just due to the rotary), and something that suits my personal needs.

Honestly if I was looking at a two seaters in the 35k price range I would not get the 350Z, but instead get the BMW 330Ci. In fact it was the car I was looking at before the RX-8 came around. The 350Z will probably never make my list, because for the money I'd much rather get something else that doesn't compromise in the areas I like -- build quality and handling. The RX-8s main compromise as far as I can see is power, and that's something I'm not as bothered with.

Sorry you are so dilusional droid, were you the one talking all the crap about how the supra and 300z and 3kgt were going to walk all over the 7? They all had massive amnts of "torque" (not to mention almost 70 more hp) compared to the 7, and when it came down to who was faster, I don't thnk anyone of them had this clear advantage over the torqueless rotary! Yes torgue=go=fun, and you need alot of torque to get that pig moving (yes i have driven one so don't start that). The 8 on the other hand weighs significantly less (like the 7 did) so it does not require all this torque you speak of to =go=fun. Have you seen the slolam and skidpad results of the stock 7? They dust, trounce, kick the *&^% out of the numbers of the 350! So I can assume, since there is visual evidence of this, that the 8 will have far superior numbers to the 350 since they are probably going to be better than the 7's were.

Originally posted by Hercules
The reason you have the Z is because it's eye catching, and so you can race at stoplights against your moron friends. Good for you. I've no interest in that and if it came down to it, you'd definately beat me at your stoplight racing.

I'm glad we have an understanding. :p I'm done. If I really cared I'd keep arguing, but alas I don't. Go and drive your friend's Zs harder, right on the ragged edge when it feels like it's going to get away from you. That "poor handling" is what reviewers are complaining about because they are shitting their pants thinking it's going to lose it. The fact of the matter is that the harder you drive it the better it gets. Nissan f**ked up in trying to make this car acceptable to the small minority of p*ssies that "think" they wanted a sports car. They screwed the rest of us as the Z should be a bit harder car than it is suspension-wise.

Just for the record, and so that you f**kers understand I don't hate the 8. If the Z wasn't available I'd have an 8 on order right now. I don't care how much HP the STi or EVO puts down.

Originally posted by b2k2000
Sorry you are so dilusional droid, were you the one talking all the crap about how the supra and 300z and 3kgt were going to walk all over the 7? They all had massive amnts of "torque" (not to mention almost 70 more hp) compared to the 7, and when it came down to who was faster, I don't thnk anyone of them had this clear advantage over the torqueless rotary! Yes torgue=go=fun, and you need alot of torque to get that pig moving (yes i have driven one so don't start that). The 8 on the other hand weighs significantly less (like the 7 did) so it does not require all this torque you speak of to =go=fun. Have you seen the slolam and skidpad results of the stock 7? They dust, trounce, kick the *&^% out of the numbers of the 350! So I can assume, since there is visual evidence of this, that the 8 will have far superior numbers to the 350 since they are probably going to be better than the 7's were.

:confused:

I've never even typed the word "Supra" in a single message here. Slolam and especially skid results are heavily dependent on tires. Taking numbers of the Z with the stock RE040s, the same shit tires the 8's getting is ludicrous. A tire change in the Z yields a .98 skid as evidenced by SCC mag.

Tell me about that light-weight RX-8. 3000+ lbs., right? Lighter than the S2K, right? Right...

Originally posted by chenpin

Again, as i've been repeating, this goes for us as well. We shouldn't be putting down the Z's weight and handling. Saying things like "Z is a porky wannabe car" will only make Z supporters mad. Compare all you like, just leave out the rhetoric

So much for leaving out the rhetoric. . .

As per your comments, it's obvious you are a 'racer boi'...

... and so you can race at stoplights against your moron friends.

...Nissan f**ked up in trying to make this car acceptable to the small minority of p*ssies...

...when it comes to a TRACK (something you have obviously no clue about,...

Originally posted by droidekaus


I'm glad we have an understanding. :p I'm done. If I really cared I'd keep arguing, but alas I don't. Go and drive your friend's Zs harder, right on the ragged edge when it feels like it's going to get away from you. That "poor handling" is what reviewers are complaining about because they are shitting their pants thinking it's going to lose it. The fact of the matter is that the harder you drive it the better it gets. Nissan f**ked up in trying to make this car acceptable to the small minority of p*ssies that "think" they wanted a sports car. They screwed the rest of us as the Z should be a bit harder car than it is suspension-wise.

Just for the record, and so that you f**kers understand I don't hate the 8. If the Z wasn't available I'd have an 8 on order right now. I don't care how much HP the STi or EVO puts down. Yep, those car reviewers don't know a damn thing! They don't have any track time, drive other performance cars, or even go to driving school every few months! THEY SUCK!

By the way, don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

Originally posted by droidekaus


:confused:

I've never even typed the word "Supra" in a single message here. Slolam and especially skid results are heavily dependent on tires. Taking numbers of the Z with the stock RE040s, the same shit tires the 8's getting is ludicrous. A tire change in the Z yields a .98 skid as evidenced by SCC mag.

Tell me about that light-weight RX-8. 3000+ lbs., right? Lighter than the S2K, right? Right...

Actually the weight is still TBA (To Be Announced). We the RX-8 fans are hoping for 2900lbs. Maybe we will get it, maybe not. Still not bad for 4 doors and 4 seats. :D

Originally posted by Fëakhelek


So much for leaving out the rhetoric. . .

He started it? :)

No doubt that Herc's name suits him. :D

Originally posted by Hercules
Yep, those car reviewers don't know a damn thing! They don't have any track time, drive other performance cars, or even go to driving school every few months! THEY SUCK!

By the way, don't let the door hit ya on the way out...

Hey, douche. Do those "reviewers" own the car and drive it on a daily basis? Have they put 9000 miles on one? Do you honestly think that a rag writer who spends half a day with the Z actually knows the car better than me?

Originally posted by droidekaus


Hey, douche. Do those "reviewers" own the car and drive it on a daily basis? Have they put 9000 miles on one? Do you honestly think that a rag writer who spends half a day with the Z actually knows the car better than me? Matter of fact, yea I do.

These guys know how a sports car SHOULD handle. They take driving clinics constantly (it's a part of their job), have lots of track time, and drive lots of different cars than you.

The fact that you have learned how to push your car farther than they have is irrelevant. If it's not set up to do it out of the box as most sports cars are, then it doesn't matter. Reviewers by the way, put an average of 1000 miles on a car before giving it back, unless specifically told not to (ala Ferrari, McLarens, etc). If they don't figure out how to push the car to its limits by 1000 miles of useage, then let's face it.. the car can't do it to begin with.

So I'll call you on BS, and I know that *I* am not as good a driver as most of those reviewers, and neither are you. There are so many reviewers (more from the UK though) that have PROFESSIONAL DRIVING CAREERS (ala Tiff Needel et al), and they've said the same thing that the US reporters have about the 350Z.

When I get the car I'll be happy to compliment it on its strongpoints and be vocal about its low points. However I don't know either right now, and what I get is from magazine articles. And if they say it's good as latest articles have said "giant killer" amongst other nice things.. I'll take their word for it. Just like I took their word for the 350Z being an understeering maniac which I later found out on my own anyway.

Originally posted by Fëakhelek
No doubt that Herc's name suits him. :D :D

I hope droidekaus saved a few of his "****" words -- he may need them the first time he runs into an 8 at the track.:p

The Z is a good car -- rented one for a week last November, but it certainly didn't make me forget my old RX-7 -- reminded of driving a Mustang -- not my idea of go=fun.

p.s. - Z owners must not play golf -- looking forward to putting my clubs in the trunk because they sure didn't fit in the Z!

Originally posted by Hercules
Matter of fact, yea I do.

These guys know how a sports car SHOULD handle. They take driving clinics constantly (it's a part of their job), have lots of track time, and drive lots of different cars than you.

The fact that you have learned how to push your car farther than they have is irrelevant. If it's not set up to do it out of the box as most sports cars are, then it doesn't matter. Reviewers by the way, put an average of 1000 miles on a car before giving it back, unless specifically told not to (ala Ferrari, McLarens, etc). If they don't figure out how to push the car to its limits by 1000 miles of useage, then let's face it.. the car can't do it to begin with.

So I'll call you on BS, and I know that *I* am not as good a driver as most of those reviewers, and neither are you. There are so many reviewers (more from the UK though) that have PROFESSIONAL DRIVING CAREERS (ala Tiff Needel et al), and they've said the same thing that the US reporters have about the 350Z.

When I get the car I'll be happy to compliment it on its strongpoints and be vocal about its low points. However I don't know either right now, and what I get is from magazine articles. And if they say it's good as latest articles have said "giant killer" amongst other nice things.. I'll take their word for it. Just like I took their word for the 350Z being an understeering maniac which I later found out on my own anyway.

You make some pretty bold assumptions, my friend. How is it that you know how many cars I've driven? How is it that you know I'm not a better driver than some mag writers?

You are a typical mag racer. With that in mind, why don't you pick up the latest R&T and check out the Z vs. others comparision test. Find out for yourself the position the Z came in on the track and in road tests against other indisputable "giants".

lets not let it get too heated guys

Well it was inevitable that this should happen.. :( I never understand webboard car arguments.. especially when the "argument" turns ugly and stupid.. shrug. Bottom line both cars have their postitives and negatives, one person likes the feeling of "low torque" another like revving the engine to 9K rpm.. WHO CARES!? Let's get on with our lives..

Originally posted by droidekaus


I'm glad we have an understanding. :p I'm done. If I really cared I'd keep arguing, but alas I don't.

what happened? i thought you were done. I guess you really do care. If you like the Z so much why do you care what others say about it? And if it really is a great car then show 'em with your actions not words. like quicklude says, lets get on with our lives

I never doubted the Z's performance. But numbers are one thing, and driving is another. I'm not comfortable in the car, it understeers a tad much for my liking. Grip is great, no denying it, I can corner hard but it's hard to get the car 'flowing' the way I want it to. This has more to do with the weight of the car rather than the suspension setup.

I like the Z. Don't get me wrong. I just don't like it for MY PURPOSES. I like the lighter weight, more nimble car in the RX-8 even though the power may not impress, it may not make it around a track as fast.. it does have all the other features that I look for in a car and for me, that's enough.

Well, I think we're all done with this one.

The Z enthusiasts who joined to put in their opinions were civil (thank you) and avoided mindless bashing, but now it has simply degenerated into personal attacks, and just going in circles.

---jps