I have a set of stocker's dyno'd....Fronts SUCK.
Pretty much "blown" when they are brand new..LOL!
I will send in the Mazdaspeeds(also manufactured by Tokico) and see if they are any better.
At least there can not be a protest about them for size/length/whatever.
They "feel" stiffer in compression but me pushing down on them is not a good test.
Aftermarket "real" dampers are going to be tough to build. Rear bodies are LONG!!!
FM

I'm down for a set of Koni Sports.

Vince

You should get the Koni's dyno'd when they come in and we can compare graphs.
What do you think?
FM

I'm a newbie - what does dynoing a shock entail?

The only dyno that I know of is at Ground Control 30 twisty miles away. And I don't care for Jay all that much.
I have been thinking of getting this http://www.shockdyno.com/index.html just for testing for a year!

Vince

Koni is coming out with shocks for the 8. You wouldn't have to worry about getting them dynoed after you get them... Koni should have the graphs available.

--kC

Koni is coming out with shocks for the 8. You wouldn't have to worry about getting them dynoed after you get them... Koni should have the graphs available.

--kC
I have dyno printouts comparing my DA Konis at different settings with the OEM Tokicos. I tire scanning them before, but the colors make it tough to read. Maybe I can recreate the graphs this weekend if I have time. Even if I do, I'm not sure how helpful that would be since I'm not sure that the rebound valving is exactly the same as the production SAs. I also don't know where bump will be valved on the production shocks either.

Yeah, I'd wait until Koni has their printouts. They may have made adjustments for the OTS SAs before going to production.

--kC

I'm a newbie - what does dynoing a shock entail?
In a nut shell, a shock dyno measures the rate of shock compression and extension for a given amount of force applied to it. When dynoing a shock, the shock is subjected to a large number of differing amounts of force and each response is measured and then plotted on a chart.

But have you compared it with the springs also doesnt that have to do with compression rate also. Jeez if your saying the shocks i just got are no diff. argh!!

No, he is saying that the physical dimensions of the MS shocks are the same as the OEM shocks - in other words, the lenght of the body, the distance from the lower mount to the spring perch, etc. This is important because for SCCA stock class autocross, you can swap the shocks out but they cannot change the spring perch location, etc. So the MS shocks are legal for BS (but not legal BS, hah hah).

Now, the information you gather from a shock dyno (which is much different than an engine dyno) helps you understand what kinds of forces the shock generates when in use. Once fastmike gets his MS dyno plots, if he's good enough to post them (hint, hint) you will see that the MS shocks are much different than the factory sport shocks, in that they generate greater forces under the same circumstances as the OEM units would. This is what you payed for.

BTW, as an example until some RX-8 plots are posted, here are some dyno curves for Tokico Illuminas shocks for a Miata:

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/292195/3

The graphs show how much force is generated as a function of shaft speed - which is to say, how fast the shaft is moving in and out of the body of the shock.

George

thats what i thought he meant thanks for clearing that up.

Shocks have been mailed.
The Guy is busy this week but should have results in a couple of weeks.
I will be pissed if they are identical to stockers.
I doubt it though.
FM

Shocks have been mailed.
The Guy is busy this week but should have results in a couple of weeks.
I will be pissed if they are identical to stockers.
I doubt it though.
FM

Waste of money.... The Konis will ship the first week of April... About the time you get yours back. :p The bad news is the Konis are only singles. The rears must be removed to adjust, the rears are like the old school konis, push up and turn. :(

Waste of money.... The Konis will ship the first week of April... About the time you get yours back. :p The bad news is the Konis are only singles. The rears must be removed to adjust, the rears are like the old school konis, push up and turn. :(

At this time.. better than nothing. ;)

Koni's might increase the performance of the car BUT they might make it slower too.
Nothing magical about Koni yellows.
Koni's are 2X the $$$ too.
No thanks.
Mazdaspeeds are just an interim damper anyways. If the car is going to play nationally, it is going to need $4K minimum invested in "real" dampers imo.
That is just the way it is now.
FM

Koni's might increase the performance of the car BUT they might make it slower too.
Nothing magical about Koni yellows.
Koni's are 2X the $$$ too.
No thanks.
Mazdaspeeds are just an interim damper anyways. If the car is going to play nationally, it is going to need $4K minimum invested in "real" dampers imo.
That is just the way it is now.
FM

That's the way it is now? Koni's might slow the car down? :eek:

And you base your experience with Konis on the RX-8 how? They're only in a few people hands that did some protype testing.

For stock class auto-x cars, the production OTS Koni SAs for the 8 around going to be around $600-$700.
To convert them to DAs, it's going to be around another $1400... and you can pick the valving. I add that up and don't get $4k.

However, are there better shocks out there for more? Yes. Moton, Ohlns, etc... Yes, you pay a premium for what... maybe a 2-5% performance increase over the Konis? (This has historically been proven). My standard response is 'Drive better'. :)

Sure, if you want to start going to adjustable coil-overs, things get more expensive, but then you have more options out there too.

Where there's a will, there's a way. No matter how much money you throw at parts, you'll never be the fastest.

T
Where there's a will, there's a way. No matter how much money you throw at parts, you'll never be the fastest.

Mikey know that. Thats why he's fastmike not fastestmike :D

Why does MS require adding the lowering springs & shocks together if the shocks are the same size as OEM?

Different damping for the different spring rates.

I am just saying that no one yet knows if the Koni's are going to be good.
Probably better than stockers though.
Are they going to be legal dimensions?
How many different models of shocks came on the 8?
I have not looked in the part books yet.
Are the spring perches in EXACTLY the correct position?
Blah,Blah,Blah.

I have had both good and bad experiences with Koni "yellows" too.
I own two sets right now.
Revalved D/A's for my TT(sold the extra set of S/A's I had)
S/A's for my Miata.
Bilsteins getting revalved for MiataR.
I think that this is going to be the route to go on that car...for now...

I agree that going to a high end damper is only good for a couple of % increase in performance.
Each car is a little different too. Some respond better than others.
BUT! A couple of % is MASSIVE nationally if you are going for first place and it is worth the $$$.
Total costs for a year of racing is big $$$ anyways when you start adding in travel cost etc.

We are progressing with the 8's development and my ES Miata R at the same time.
I am still trying to get my MiataR to even be on the same second as a certain 93MR2ABS here locally.
Going to try again this Sunday.
I am still not certain that the Miata's can run with these "new" MR2's.
I might abandon the Miata if I can not get there.

I would type Fastestmike but it is too long...LOL!

Anyways, good matchup with Isley/Bauer in SD to see some stuff...

FM

Koni's might increase the performance of the car BUT they might make it slower too.
Nothing magical about Koni yellows.
Koni's are 2X the $$$ too.
No thanks.
Mazdaspeeds are just an interim damper anyways. If the car is going to play nationally, it is going to need $4K minimum invested in "real" dampers imo.
That is just the way it is now.
FM

$4k for stock class shocks :p Dont need them. We tried $2k Penske Singles, $4k ARE Penske doubles and of all the combos my C4 was always at its best on the off the shelf Koni. I have seen a set of nearly $4k Koni 2812s on a RX8, I think it was about a month before the first one failed. :eek: You go ahead and drop the big $$$s on those shocks and I guess you will have to spend another year in your PJs. lol I will wait for the konis. Not that any of this matters..... I still have not getten to race the damn thing yet. The Pro should be good practice for SD.

p.s. you already made you one trip to natls, we know you wont show for another 5 years. :cool:

I doubt that it will take 5 years.
Strip clubs save me so much money in Kansas that I almost HAVE to go!

I would like to see that place paved though. What a MESS!

We'll see how the Mazdaspeeds dyno.

Had the baby yet?
If so, congrats and time to get a FJR kart.

FM

$4k for stock class shocks :p Dont need them. We tried $2k Penske Singles, $4k ARE Penske doubles and of all the combos my C4 was always at its best on the off the shelf Koni. I have seen a set of nearly $4k Koni 2812s on a RX8, :

I agree. I have driven that RX8 with the Koni 2812's and went about a tenth or so faster than in my own car with the stock shocks. Our setups are a bit different but comparing specs and dollars spent, her car should have been significantly faster if the shocks made a difference comparable to the $$ spent. The car with the 2812's definately had a stiffer, livelier feel to it and I look forward to getting a set of SA Konis for my own car.

Tom

I doubt that it will take 5 years.
Strip clubs save me so much money in Kansas that I almost HAVE to go!

I would like to see that place paved though. What a MESS!

We'll see how the Mazdaspeeds dyno.

Had the baby yet?
If so, congrats and time to get a FJR kart.

FM

The clubs only save you money there because of the dogs working in them. :D

No doubt we need a new surface.... Maybe in 06 there will be space for us at heartland park. :rolleyes:

Any day for the kid.....Due date is March 13th, oh yeah same weekend as the SD tour. If the kid comes early I have been told I wont make the events. :( Darn kid trying to screw up my weekend already. :cool: Yeah our kid will codrive with Schotz's.

Are they going to be legal dimensions?
How many different models of shocks came on the 8?
I have not looked in the part books yet.
Are the spring perches in EXACTLY the correct position?
Blah,Blah,Blah.

If they aren't, Lee and Jay are going to have a lot to answer for. They've been at this quite a while and know what their SCCA Solo II customers need to conform to the rules.

OK...Mazdaspeeds are dyno'd.
Short answer is that they have 25% more damping force in each direction front and rear.
Front rebound is not quite 25% though.
I will compare graphs to stockers graphs(same dyno used to test both sets) once I receive the shocks/data back at my house. They are shipping now.
Should be a great street shock.
A LOT better than the stockers which are basically "noshocks" especially in the front..
Wondering about the Mazdaspeed front bar versus Racing Beat front bar versus stocker..We should have both aftermarket bars in a couple of weeks.
Already have the Racing Beat monster.
Probably get the Koni S/A'a too and do some dyno testing.
Feel free to send money to me for all the info! LOL!

FM

^^thanks for the update:D:D

Thanks, Mike. I'm a bit surprised it's only 25% stronger.

Please do post the graphs. If you do I'll buy you a beer or two at Packwood.

Great info... I am surprised they came in that much stiffer, I would have thought 10-15% for a "dealer/OE" part.

25%? Sweet! I wonder if the mazdaspeed 6 shocks are made by tokico...I know the springs are about 20% stiffer (mazdaspeed parts for the 6).

Oh wait nevermind, I'm in STX anyway, I'll just throw on coilovers and lose gracefully.

Im new to this shock thing. Im going to buy some shocks this spring and stay in B Stock. For you guys who are familiar with Koni what % stiffer than stock would you guess the Koni's will be? Will it be worth it to wait for the Koni's? Are the Mazdaspeeds adjustable?

Thanks for the research, I really think im gonna pick up a set of mazdaspeed shocks/springs in the spring. As i dont AutoX, i just have a few track days, so an awesome street shock would be amazing!!! Keep the numbers coming!!

I have to get Shelbi to scan the data and maybe overlap it so it is easier to read.
Maybe next week.
I have to get them on the car before Sunday to try them out with the Mazdapeed front bar.
Probably going to sell the Racing Beat front bar for cheap!
Too big IMO unless used with a rear bar.
The Mazdaspeeds are not adjustable.
I have no idea how the Koni's graphs would look.

FM

Ok...got the charts back.
Not as simple as earlier post.
If I am reading it correctly:
Rear rebound runs about 75% stiffer.
Rear compression is actually softer by 15% or so once 3 in/sec is hit but the same as stock before that speed.
Front rebound and compression is about 25% stiffer.
Not that simple....I should just have Shelbi scan the crap...
FM

nice info mike. thx. Cant wait for the rest.
I have the MS bars, I really wonder how much stiffer they are compared with stock, especially the rear...

Tryed out the MS front bar with all 4 MS shocks on Hoosiers.
Did not like the push the car had under power.
Course was slow though.
Back end was really planted. Even with zero rear toe.
Going to try out the stock bar with MS shocks next and see how it does.
Lots of the body motions were cured with the shocks.
Shelbi should post the graphs this week if she has time.
FM

do you think the car could have been understeering due to only having the front bar? this would upset the balance a little, especially when looking at understeer.

do you think the car could have been understeering due to only having the front bar? this would upset the balance a little, especially when looking at understeer.
I would think so. Especially on a car with a pretty good camber curve like the RX-8.

We went and drove the car with MS front bar and MS front shocks along with stock rear shocks and the car was "nervous" in the rear and hard to predict what is was going to do but then we went and put the rear MS shocks on and that really planted the rear end.
The Hoosiers should of been fresh enough to get a good read on the car too and weather was good/heat was in tires etc.
We are going to try stock front bar with 4 MS shocks next and see how the car handles.
Shelbi said she really likes the car on the street now though.
Those MS shocks should of came stock on the car IMO.
I wasn't causing the push from driving style either.
Maybe the MS front bar with some front Koni S/A's...hard to say.
REALLY want to get some 710's on the thing to see what it will do.
Miata is taking most of the time now...
Will keep working on 8 though.
We already have 3 sets of rims/3 sway bars/3 sets of shocks.
Still need straight pipe/710's/ and I am going to cut up a set of stock shocks and mess with them.
FM