Earlier in the year I made a post referring to the movie Karate Kid, where Miyagi says "Either do Karate, or do not do Karate. Never halfway, or squish like bug". I then drew a reference to the RX-8, in that attempting to split the difference between a sports car and a sedan with the four-door sports car concept it would end up doing neither function exceptionally well.

In reading the posts the past few weeks, we have seen people complain about the real-world straight line performance, body roll, etc... some are calling the car more of a sedan than a sports car. What the truth is will remain to be seen, and depend on the personal tastes of those driving it. But I think it is safe to say the RX-8 does not offer the performance of a 350Z or G35c, or the sedan-like qualities of a 325i or G35, CTS, etc.

Obviously, the RX-8 will find plenty of happy owners. But compared to the initial 350Z feeding frenzy, the RX-8 has not had the same kind of buzz. A lot of dealers did not sell-out their preorders and cars are still available in some places.

Could it be the compromises are hurting the car? People who need a sedan will find plenty of options that are adequately sporting, with true sedan utility. For those who really want a sports car, more intense sports cars with less performance compromises are available, too. The RX-8 could be in the middle, and as I said, "Squish, like bug".

I am starting to think that Mazda should have forgotten the four door sports car but and just made a closed sports car like the
RX-7. If the car was smaller and a 2-door, it could be only 2,700 lbs and with the Renesis, there would be no straight-line performance complaints. Handling would be best in its class, and without the extra doors and the back seat, safety features for extra two passengers, etc this RX-7 could sell for under $27,000 nicely equipped. It would be a true spiritual successor to the first gen RX-7, and in my opinion, a runaway sales success, too.

OK- post away! Agree? Disagree? What do you think of my idea?

BTW I had to cancel my Mini Cooper S order... realities at work tell me I should wait a while until things are more solid. Well, it is not like I am suffering with a G35 and a Miata :). So, I can post here as a neutral observer. Who knows, if I fall for my RX-8 when it comes in, maybe I will do something stupid!

As a consolation prize I am getting a new digital camera, an 11.1 megapixel Canon 1Ds. It's the Ferrari 360 Modena Spyder of digital cameras... :-) I will be using it to photograph weddings for my friend's photo studio, as well as for personal use. It is an investment that will pay for itself, and in fact makes more sense than car #3.

Actually, Mr. Miyagi said "SQUISH LIKE GRAPE!", not bug. Get your movie lines straight.

I've never been an RX enthusiast but this is the way I see it. I think you will get the 7 enthusiasts that see the 8 as not being true to the previous model and that it is not worthy enough to carry the torch. Despite that, it will still attract a new a market of people interested in the car. I'm one of those people for example.

Originally posted by DonG35Miata
In reading the posts the past few weeks, we have seen people complain about the real-world straight line performance, body roll, etc... some are calling the car more of a sedan than a sports car. What the truth is will remain to be seen, and depend on the personal tastes of those driving it.

All speculation, based on varying interpretations of test write-ups and test data. Aside from a very few, nobody posting here has actually driven the car and posted a direct personal experience. Rather pointless to be condemning the driving experience without having driven it, don't you think? As you say - the truth remains entirely to be seen.

Regards,
Gordon

I visited with my Mazda dealer yesterday for about 30 minutes. According to what I was told, they have had all their pre-orders sold out for some time, and are taking 'bunches' of orders for the RX-8 and are quoting deliveries around Christmas. My salesperson even closed another deal on the phone for an RX-8 while I was sitting there waiting for my VIN #. It was someone who had been in the previous day. Keep in mind this interest my dealer is seeing has been, up to this point, with very limited marketing. Only now are we beginning to see the ads in mags, billboards & TV.

If you have not heard, Mazda is supplying dealers who have met a certain sales point an RX-8 for demo purposes, and are scheduled to get them when the 1st allocations arrive. As my dealer put it, Mazda had to make this investment, because of the interest level they have already received, and it can be difficult to sell from an empty basket.

The dealer says they will have little problem selling the RX-8 once they have one to show, as there are so many people who want to see & feel one before they decide.

Performance differences between the autos mentioned on this thread are negligible, although I like the looks of all of them, and seriously considered each of them before deciding on the RX-8.
But my educated decision made the RX-8 the better vehicle for me.

Originally posted by RX8Lover
Actually, Mr. Miyagi said "SQUISH LIKE GRAPE!", not bug. Get your movie lines straight.

Thanks! Squish like bug has a better ring to it though... :) also better for a car board. I have never had to clear squished grapes from the front of my car after an interstate trip!

You must be a Karate Kid fan. I have not seen the movie in years.

Personally, I don't care what the market thinks. The uniqueness of this car appeals to me because of its design and the rotary engine. Too many cars on the road today lack any sign of imagination. I once had a 1982 RX7 back when I was younger. I loved it. Now being older with kids the 8 seems perfect. Although I'll keep an eye out for the new 7 and maybe trade in on that in a few years.

I do not understand why people insist on writing poor things about a car that has not hit the streets in the US. I think it is unfair to compare the RX-8 to anything until we have had a chance to drive the freaken thing. I think these conversations are pointless. Lets wait and see.

The reason the Z "sold out" so fast is that it is a remake/sequel of the original. Notice now that it is NOT selling that well. Just like the movie "Matrix 2." Everyone came out the first few weeks. Now the movie is falling fast on the box office charts.

Had a new RX-7 been launched now, it would have easilly sold out to dedicated loyalists, then after a few months sales would normalize. How many current RX-7 owners have stated that they are going to pass on the 8 and wait for the 7?

The RX-8 is a whole new concept. It is an original. It will take word of mouth and first hand driving before people drop $33k. Many people are taking a wait and see approach.

I have always been a "first on the block" person. I like to research the hell out of everything I buy. This car is perfect for me. I am sure the car will sell very well as long as the production quality is excellent.

1. I saw and sat in the RX-8 last weekend at the Rev-it-up. As much if not more leg room in the back that ALL sports "sedans". My friend of 6'3'' in the back and me 6'1' in the back were very comforable.

2. They have not advertised! The advertising as been crap! Everyone I tell that I ordered a RX-8, they say "what?". If you told someone 350Z they knew exactly what you were talking about. You could not turn on the TV without seeing a Z commercial.

3. BACK SEATS! As a former Boxster owner. If it had back seat, I would still own it.

4. The major problem I see is that Mazda has been so low profile for 10 years except for the Miata that it is tuff to get the respect and Buzz back. Nissan has put out so many cool cars in the last 5 years it is mind blowing (of course all with one engine). Mazda needs to hire the Nissan marketing team for what ever they cost!!!

Nope, I don't agree. Is the G35 coupe a failure? Certainly not! Yet it has far worse compromises IMHO. Have you sat in the back seat of one of those cars? I'm 5'10, and I can't come close to sitting up straight without hitting my head on the glass. My brother's 6'0" and he had a crick in his neck after about 5 minutes back there from staying hunched over. I have tons of room in the RX-8 back seats, and found them to be extremely comfortable. I could probably sit there for more time than I can sit in the driver's seat.

Now, I'm fairly impressed on paper with the G35 coupe, but the lack of a back seat removes it from consideration for most RX-8 buyers. The G35 sedan has plenty of room in the back, but do you expect that it will be able to keep up on the track with the RX-8? I doubt it. It's another extremely interesting car, but it's a full-fledged sedan, and I doubt the word "tossable" will be used to describe it unless you're comparing it to a Buick. I drove a friend's G35 coupe and wasn't impressed. It's very quick, but it feels incredibly heavy (coming from a Miata...). I would absolutely never consider buying one, because it wasn't as fun to drive as the 2 seaters out there and it can't carry 4 people like the sedans. Yet look at how it was received by the reviewers! It fails the test by a far wider margin than I expect the RX-8 to, yet it's doing extremely well in the marketplace.

I believe there is a significant population of people who want a sports car (like the 350Z, perhaps) who simply cannot justify it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the people who want the 350Z/Miata/MR2/S2000/etc. but can't justify their lack of practicality significantly outnumber the people who have purchased those cars. Those buyers have absolutely *no* choice in the market right now other than cars that are significantly more boring. Can a Mazda 6 really satisfy someone who wants a Miata? Being a Miata owner and a Rev-it-up participant I can emphatically say "no!". Can a Maxima/Altima/G35 sedan satisfy someone who wants a 350Z? Closer (for the G35), but again, they would need the sedan for any remotely usable back seats. I very highly doubt the G35 sedan can really satiate someone's desire for a Z. RSX/TSX to the S2000? For me it's not even close, and I suspect many others feel the same way.

The RX-8 seems to be truly different. The back seat is extremely comfortable for someone my size. The trunk isn't huge, but it's plenty big enough for the sorts of things most people will need to take. Can it satisfy the person who wants one of those true sports car? It should come far closer than any other car on the market.

I think the best test is to compare it to the G35 coupe, which is an undeniable success. The G35c has some advantages - namely torque - but to me it's the prime example of what you're talking about. Not enough practicality to compete with the sedans, not nimble enough to compete with the sports cars. I truly expect the RX-8 to exceed the sporty character of the G35c (while losing the push-in-the-back feel) and I know for an absolute fact it obliterates the G35c in sedan-like room and comfort. Even if (as I suspect many will argue) the G35c is more of a sports car, it cannot possibly overcome the huge advantage in rear seat comfor the RX-8 has. Remember, this is a serious consideration because that's the untapped market Mazda's aiming for.

One question - Is it true that the manual transmission on the G35c is only offered starting at $35k? I tried to make one on www.edmunds.com and couldn't get the manual without leather. If that's the case, then the RX-8 has more than a $6k price advantage over the G35 coupe for the manual transmission cars. I know that the G35c will have a lot more options at that price, but if I were looking I'd get absolutely 0 options other than those necessary for the manual tranny. $6k is a lot of money! Even if the RX-8 falls short of the G35c, $6k in upgrades will certainly bring it up to and well beyond the performance of the G35 coupe and it will retain the extra room in the back seats.

I agree with the fact that until I drive the 8 I won't know if I truly like it. But from what I've read and researched this looks like an impressive vehicle! I've always loved cars that have had great lines and the RX-8 (IMO) has luscious lines and I look forward to actually touching,sitting, and driving her hard.:D

Originally posted by roachman
The major problem I see is that Mazda has been so low profile for 10 years except for the Miata that it is tuff to get the respect and Buzz back. Nissan has put out so many cool cars in the last 5 years it is mind blowing (of course all with one engine). Mazda needs to hire the Nissan marketing team for what ever they cost!!!

I think the products are good, too, for the most part,and this has a lot to do with their success. They certainly have their flaws (mostly interior quality vs. competitors) but the G35, Murano, 350Z, and FX35-FX45 are neat looking machines with good driving qualities that are priced right. The marketing brings them to the showroom... the test drive sells the car.

No amount of marketing has helped the M45. As of last month, my Infiniti dealer had only sold ONE M45 since product launch last year, vs. dozens of G35s. I think they should have shoehorned the V8 into the G35 and made a G45, rather than introducing the ugly M.

According to the response here, Mazda may have hit the mark. I guess I find myself wanting a more hard-edged sports machine than the RX-8. Maybe I will be happy in a new RX-7 sometime not long ago... maybe cancelling the Mini order will pay off in the long run.

I think another factor is the absence of choices in this car category (however that is defined....). At one time we had the Supra, 3000GT, Stealth, nice fat, powerful sports cars. For the last few years it seems the sports segment is mainly of the toy variety (Boxster, Miata, 911, MR2, S2000, etc.). Like many on this forum, I researched for over a year and found nothing in the market I liked (350Z is sweet, but too tiny).

My fear is that once we start driving ours around, the 8 will become another Durango or Eclipse in that they are everywhere. Just like mass appeal killed disco (ugh), it takes the fun out of it for me if too many people get 8s.

The 350Z is a compromise car because they had to build it on a luxury sedan/SUV platform, so even as a small 2-seater, it is a heavy pig of a car.

The WRX/Evo are basically cheap, rickety economy sedans wrapped around a turbo and AWD.

The Audi TT is just a plush interior and a few Audi logos slapped on a Volkswagen Golf platform. Also, Consumer Reports ranked it dead last in its class for reliability.

How is the RX-8 more of a compromise than any of these cars?

Originally posted by m477
The 350Z is a compromise car because they had to build it on a luxury sedan/SUV platform, so even as a small 2-seater, it is a heavy pig of a car.

The WRX/Evo are basically cheap, rickety economy sedans wrapped around a turbo and AWD.

The Audi TT is just a plush interior and a few Audi logos slapped on a Volkswagen Golf platform. Also, Consumer Reports ranked it dead last in its class for reliability.

How is the RX-8 more of a compromise than any of these cars?

in those respects the RX-8 is no compromise whatsoever...the RX was built from the ground up to be a 4 door 4 seater...it was built from the ground up to be exactly what it is today...

and why must one think "compromise"? it seems more accurate to think of the RX-8 as the car Mazda had envisioned from the beginning...it IS a 4 door 4 seat sports car, the way it was meant to be...

and here's a quote i made from another topic:

"The question remains: Which cars are competitors? The answer is: The RX-8 does not have competitors. It is unique. Not only for its rotary engine, but also because of its attractively styles package."
- Page 36

the RX-8 is basically trying to be everything all at once, and reaching that happy medium would be impossible without compromises...the RX-8 falls short in almost every category; as a sports car, it can't beat a 350Z or an STi...in terms of luxury, it can't beat a BMW 3-series...BUT it never falls short by much...to be able to seat 4 people comfortably AND get 0-60 times in under 6 seconds all the while pricing it well under $30,000 is an engineering masterpiece, not to mention being the only mass produced car on the market with the brand new Renesis rotary engine...

yes, this car is trying to appeal to the sports car driver, the family man, the daily driver, the luxury car owner, the riceboy, the gadget freak, and the next door neighbor car junky...if you belong to two or more of these categories, then you're good to go...if you belong to only one of these camps, you may want to look elsewhere

Originally posted by LesPaul
I think another factor is the absence of choices in this car category (however that is defined....). At one time we had the Supra, 3000GT, Stealth, nice fat, powerful sports cars. For the last few years it seems the sports segment is mainly of the toy variety (Boxster, Miata, 911, MR2, S2000, etc.). Like many on this forum, I researched for over a year and found nothing in the market I liked (350Z is sweet, but too tiny).

My fear is that once we start driving ours around, the 8 will become another Durango or Eclipse in that they are everywhere. Just like mass appeal killed disco (ugh), it takes the fun out of it for me if too many people get 8s.

LOL! I think this points out one of the strentghs of the RX-8. I disagree 100% with everything LesPaul said, yet we're both still interested in the RX-8! To me, the more of my car I see on the road the happier I get. More sales = more aftermarket support, lower prices, more of a chance the model will be continued, etc.
I love the move to smaller, lighter, more nimble "toy" cars. The Elise is my dream car, and a Miata is as close as I could get. The 3000GT, Supra, etc. are completely uninteresting to me. Weight is the #1 performance stat I'm interested in.
Yet we both are here on this board. Interesting.

Paraphrasing your quote one could say ' Either do sports car or do not do sports car. Never halfway.'

To me halfway means a 2+2 sports coupe (e.g. Mustang, G35C etc). The back seats are almost unusable except to carry groceries, so why bother to go the the expense and weight to add them at all. Definitely a half-hearted halfway.

OTOH the RX-8 is a real 4 seater with 4 doors and yet much less weight, better weight distribution and handling. Does that make it better or worse than the halfway vehicles mentioned above. It definitely makes the RX-8 a far better sedan replacement for sure, but does that automatically disqualify it from having any sports car abilities and passion. I think not. Comparing the RX-8 to real sports sedans like BMW 330i, Lexus IS300 etc shows a HUGE difference in design intent and hopefully passion/feel - if the RX-8 is not vastly more fun to drive than my IS300 I will not buy it.

The RX-8 is a new type of animal in the automotive world (much like the first SUV), and I think it's design and intent will be copied and even improved by many others. Some people say it makes too many compromises - I disagree vehemently: it makes just enough compromises to be realistic for me and hundreds of thousands of other car enthusiasts who cannot compromise their people carrying needs and who will seriously consider it once they become aware of it...

it makes just enough compromises to be realistic for me and hundreds of thousands of other car enthusiasts who cannot compromise their people carrying needs and who will seriously consider it once they become aware of it...

I suspect Mazda will not be able to keep up with demand. Yet because of the RENESIS, it will be very difficult for another manufacturer to match the weight & handling characteristics of the RX-8.

Don -- There is still time to get back on the bandwagon, although I suspect that will take place for you once the general public gets wind of this new breed of sports car. I still say trade your G35.

Hang tight all, as we are in for one wild ride!

Originally posted by DonG35Miata

I am starting to think that Mazda should have forgotten the four door sports car but and just made a closed sports car like the
RX-7. If the car was smaller and a 2-door, it could be only 2,700 lbs and with the Renesis, there would be no straight-line performance complaints. Handling would be best in its class, and without the extra doors and the back seat, safety features for extra two passengers, etc this RX-7 could sell for under $27,000 nicely equipped. It would be a true spiritual successor to the first gen RX-7, and in my opinion, a runaway sales success, too.



Why do people keep making the mistake of referring to the '8 as the successor to the RX-7???

This is a completely different car, built from the ground up. It's not a new RX-7, that will come later (albeit dependant on the sales of the RX-8 - as rumour will have it).

There's no point moaning that they should have made it a 2-seater, lighter etc so as to carry on the RX-7 name, because this isn't what it's trying to do!



-andy-

Good point RICH. I am not being critical of the "toy" cars. They certainly have their place and they can be fun. I just like to have a little more muscle around me. Yes that means more weight, but it also means stability and, perhaps, safety. Cram the thing with tons of horsepower and I'm happy. I'm trading a 1991 Stealth twin turbo, and I'll miss it. If they made a 2004 Stealth/3000GT I'd probably buy it. The RX8 seems the next best thing in my price range right now.

I totally agree with Pelucidor, the RX-8 was meant to be a well rounded car. The moment I saw the RX-8 I was in love. When I saw the HP and torque numbers I was impressed. I say it has plenty of torque, and as for HP it has plenty. I myself drive a manual civic. And I always take it to its limits. The biggest complaints of my car is 1. its cheap - falling apart 2. too little power. 3. its only two doors and there isn't much room in the back for the extra passengers.

Now with the RX-8 the three complaints I just stated surely would be non-existant. And since hondas are made to be high revving I sure won't have any problems driving the RX-8. And compared to the civic, the RX-8 has about 2.5 more HP and 60% more torque and with its superior handling.

I know the RX-8 and the civic is two totally different cars. But both cars are high revving and low on torque, but compare the weight of both cars and their respective power it generates the RX-8 is amazing. of course the civic has better mileage. But thats because it has a cheap little four banger that barely drinks gas. Now the RX-8 gives a lot of power and the mileage isn't all that bad. Now if the economy wasn't all s**tty I wouldn't have lost most of my money and I would have the money to preorder...*sniff* :( anyways I guess I'll just have to wait until the RX-7 comes out.:D

Originally posted by DonG35Miata
Miyagi says "Either do Karate, or do not do Karate. Never halfway, or squish like bug". I then drew a reference to the RX-8, in that attempting to split the difference between a sports car and a sedan with the four-door sports car concept it would end up doing neither function exceptionally well.

I'm more of a "DO OR DO NOT, THERE IS NO TRY" kind of guy. Oh all mighty Yoda... :D

In the case of the RX-8 I firmly believe that Mazda, whether you prefer Mr. Miyagi or Master Yoda, is DOING it perfectly!!!! Just the way they want it and I want it.

Originally posted by Rich
Nope, I don't agree. Is the G35 coupe a failure? Certainly not! Yet it has far worse compromises IMHO. Have you sat in the back seat of one of those cars? I'm 5'10, and I can't come close to sitting up straight without hitting my head on the glass. .....

I drove a friend's G35 coupe and wasn't impressed. It's very quick, but it feels incredibly heavy (coming from a Miata...).

I think the best test is to compare it to the G35 coupe, which is an undeniable success. The G35c has some advantages - namely torque -

One question - Is it true that the manual transmission on the G35c is only offered starting at $35k?


Cough cough, I feel a certain need to bud in here. First of all, let's address the backseat issue. The headroom in the G35C rearseats are small, only passengers shorter than 5'8 would be able to sit back there in a comfortably reclined position. However, if your friends are mostly 5'8 or under, the G35C rear seats offer more usable legroom, arm and hip room than a RX8. (Don't believe me? park them side by side and sit in the back, as I have done) So if you are consistently carrying 3 other passengers taller than 5'8, then get a sedan, because the RX8 legroom won't help you with tall passengers. If you only have 1 tall passenger, then the G35C rear seats are some of the most comfortable seats on the market, just like the front seats.

2) Pricing: a base 6MT G35C used to cost $32050, now it's $32200 after center console revision. Included in this base model is full leather interior, Brembo brakes, 18' rims, LSD, EBD, DSC, Cruise, Xenon, 6 Disc CD Changer, heater seats, power seats, fold down rear seats, and heated mirrors. As a matter of fact, I recommend a base 6MT over the premium version, the Bose is overrated and sunroof and Homelink + Dim mirrors only costs $1300 to install. This would bring the price of a nicely equipped G35C to $33350. A similarly equipped RX8 (Leather, CD, spare)would cost you $32000. To make matters even more interesting, a 6MT G35 sedan would run you only $32850. (Starts under $30k) Now ask yourself the question, is a 6MT G35 sedan Premium pkg (0-60 on par with the coupe) worth $850 more than a RX8? Let's not forget a fully loaded G35C can sprint to 60 in 5.5 sec, a 6MT G35 sedan can keep pace closely with 4 real doors, a big trunk and 5 seats. I am sorry, but that kind of price difference won't cut it for Mazda. The G35 siblings are still the best performance/value/luxury deal around town.

3) Driving dynamic: I have driven the G35C on a track before. You are right, it doesn't feel fast, but when you cross the finish line and look at the time..... you'll know you were going pretty damn fast. The VQ35DE engine is very smooth, and the chasis is stable. Some cars feels faster than their actual speed (RX8) and some cars are the exact opposite.

Anyhow, I am not trying to rag on the RX8, just offering my view point from the Infiniti G35C perspective. There is an old saying, there is no replacement for displacement. With the type of performance (acceleration in particular) price, and gas milage, the RX8 does not look as good as it once did 2 month ago.

Originally posted by LesPaul
My fear is that once we start driving ours around, the 8 will become another Durango or Eclipse in that they are everywhere. Just like mass appeal killed disco (ugh), it takes the fun out of it for me if too many people get 8s.
I think its price tag would keep the RX-8 from being ubiquitous. It's not some car that "teenagers" (or parents of teenagers) would just go and pick up.

As far as Skyline's posts, his points are well taken (by me at least). I will investigate very closely the two cars. I saw a white/ivory (whatever) G35C barreling down the highway yesterday morning... it is very sweet looking car. Personally I don't think price, insurance, or reliability of the two is going to be that different. As much as I love the RX-8 right now, it really will all come down the the test drive. The RX-8, however, will always have an upperhand for this single most important reason: I, being 30 and starting a family, am tired of two doors but not tired of a "sports car". (The innovation/novelty of the RENESIS is simply icing for me.)

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac

...However, if your friends are mostly 5'8 or under, the G35C rear seats offer more usable legroom, arm and hip room than a RX8.


Skyline Maniac, how tall are you?

at marrying the coupe, sedan, and sports car themes into one vehicle can look at the April issue of Car & Driver where the RX-8 came in first place in a comparison test. Who did it beat? Only the Infiniti G35, Motor Trend's reigning 2003 Car of the Year. My money is on the RX-8 being named 2004 COTY. Simply put, there isn't another car like the RX-8 on the road.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
If you only have 1 tall passenger, then the G35C rear seats are some of the most comfortable seats on the market, just like the front seats.
What? If you only have one tall passenger, then the rear seats won't be used. If you mean 1 passenger in the rear, there is absolutely no way anyone over 5'10" (and probably much shorter than that) can sit in the back comfortably or even safely. An average person can't fit back there, much less a tall one!
The whole point that started this thread was the claim that the RX-8 has missed its mark by trying to be too many things. I pointed out that there is simply no other car on the market that does what the RX-8 can do close to its price. The G35c cannot from a practicality standpoint, and the sedan cannot from the standpoint of satisying someone who really wants a true sports car.
Incidentally, I found the rear seats of the RX-8 far more comfortable than the G35C (even aside from the headroom issue), but that's very subjective. There was more than enough leg, arm, head, hip, whatever room.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac

2) Pricing: a base 6MT G35C used to cost $32050, now it's $32200 after center console revision. Included in this base model is (Rich: A whole lot of stuff I really don't want)

I'm glad to see it's less than the $35k that I found on edmunds. They're usually extremely accurate, so I'm curious where their misinformation came from.
Still, that's $4,000 more than the RX-8 that *I* want. I hate nothing more in a car than leather seats, other than FWD and an automatic transmission. Almost everything else that you listed is either something I would pay to have removed or something I want that's included in the base RX-8 package, so for me the price difference is still extremely significant. Certainly there are people for whom the price difference would be less, but I don't think it's possible for the RX-8 to cost more with similar options. At worst it's a draw, and at best it's a $4,000 advantage for the RX-8.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac

Some cars feels faster than their actual speed (RX8) and some cars are the exact opposite.
I'd be interested in how you know this. I much prefer a car that feels fun to drive, and I strongly suspect that the RX-8 will have that far more than the G35c for me. I'm a huge fan of light weight, nimble, agile, and communicative cars. Mazda has done that with the Miata, old RX-7s and Mazda 6 (given its platform), so if they put that same fairy dust in the RX-8 I'll enjoy it more than I did the G35c. If they missed the mark, then I won't buy either.

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac
With the type of performance (acceleration in particular) price, and gas milage, the RX8 does not look as good as it once did 2 month ago.

This is the part I really don't understand. For me, it's $4,000 less, has virtually identical performance to the G35c (0.1 seconds slower than the G35c on the C&D comparison article) even with the power deficit. That to me points to a better handling car, which is what performance is to me. In that comparison it was the only car to get 10s in fun to drive and handling, which are the two categories I'm concerned about. So it has nearly equal performance on the track as the G35c, better handling and fun to drive according to that article, and costs thousands less (in the trim that I want)! To me it looks much better than it did 2 months ago. I simply don't see how you can make the statement that you did unless straight line performance is the only or primary definition of performance for you.
Fuel economy doesn't concern me in the slightest, and acceleration in a straight line isn't important to me. Heck, I drive a Miata! And $4,000 can buy a whole lot of gas!

I'm really not trying to knock the G35c, although I know it looks like I am. I'm simply trying to point out that for the market Mazda was aiming for, it's a much, much better fit than the G35c. Nissan/Infiniti really hit their mark for their car, and I do respect their entire new line. If the RX-8 didn't exist, I'd be giving the G35 some serious consideration. However, the RX-8 has better performance in the areas that I care about, costs a whole lot less, comes with better option choices for me, and has a rotary engine! The initial question was, did Mazda try to do too many things and in doing so miss the mark? No. If the questions changes to "is the RX-8 or G35C a better car for all buyers?" then the answer is obviously "No." It's better for some, we just don't know how many.

Skyline - I don't disagree with you. On the contrary if we draw a 3D graph of all cars with the axes being price vs performance vs space/content then the 6MT G35 Sedan is way above everything else overall (inc. the RX-8, 350Z, BMW 3 series, EVO, BMW 5 series etc).

But the RX-8 has other things in it's favour, such as looks, compact external size, weight, handling, gearshift feel, rotary engine etc. Some of these 'benefits' are subjective so not everyone will agree. Heck I may not agree once I have tested the RX-8 - if I am not completely in Nirvana then I will be getting the 6MT G35 for the reasons you have mentioned.

In maths there is a term necessary and sufficient that indicates you MUST have certain things (system will not work without any one of these things) and those things are ALL you need (i.e. other things are superflous but can be added without beneficial effect). Everything I've read and seen suggests the RX-8 will provide the absolutely necessary performance, handling, space and comfort and also just sufficient performance, handling, space and comfort that I'm looking for (too much space means increased size and weight, too much comfort removes you from the driving experience, too much performance costs too much money and negates comfort etc).

Originally posted by ZoomZoom


Skyline Maniac, how tall are you?

I am 5'10.5, and don't expect me to sit in the backseat of the G35C :D. Ain't gonna happen. Most of my friends and family are 5'8 or below, so I don't have a problem with the backseat headroom. If you have all 5'10+ friends and family, I can definitely see a concern there. As far as the RX8 goes, the headroom was ample in the back, but the legroom was very tight, reminds me of the IS300. It's also not as easy to get in or out of the RX8 backseat as I thought. If you have to carry 4 people in the car all the time, I would honestly suggest a 4 door sport sedan like the G35 (similar price to RX8) or BMW. I agree the G35 sedan doesn't look as sweet as the RX8, but you can't really deny reclining full size back seats and a huge trunk. Heck, the G35C has a huge trunk if you remove the spare tire and the plastic molding around it. (I estimate at least 12 cu.ft of space back there) Then again, I prefer to drive with a spare in case anything happens.

Rich: Point well taken, it's not about what the general public wants, if about what YOU want. So if leather, options, and all that is unwanted, then you shouldn't have to pay for them. That's one thing about Japan luxury brands, they tend to load things up pretty well even in the base trim.

As far as performance goes, try to accelerate a G35 to 90mph vs a TT RX7 at the same speed, and you'll see what I mean. The G feels slow, no lurch, no turbo kick, no drama..... until you look down at the speedo and realize you are way over speed limit. The RX7 on the other hand, will feel pretty damn fast cruising at 45mph due to all the 'communicative' jerking, road and tire noise, and lower riding position. Try it, you'll see.

I don't get how your point relates to the RX-8 then...

You mention the RX-7 being jerky due the turbo... I'll say you're right on that. However being that the RX-8 does not have turbos and rather a silky smooth power line all the way up to redline (and beyond), I don't see how the RX-8 would 'feel faster.'

It's a matter of preference really. I drove the G35 Coupe and I was impressed by the power and thought it handled really well.

However, then I went for the BMW Drive for the Cure where I got the chance to drive a BMW Z4 2.5 (only 180ish horsepower!) and found that to be a *much much much* more fun car to drive than the G35 Coupe, despite the power difference.

I think that in the end it comes down to what you want -- power or handling. The RX-8 gives you 'okay' power, and great handling, with a (more likely) better feel due to its low weight.

The G35 Coupe will deliver great power, good handling, but a more bulky and stubborn feel in its delivery.

I really did not know what the difference would be with a lightweight car over a heavier car until I drove the Z4 and G35 in a very close time slot. The Z4 just put a grin on my face the G35 could not replicate. And being that the RX-8 weighs only 100 lbs more than the Z4 (and adds 50 ponies on top of it), I am certain it will be just as fun to drive.

Keep in mind, I drove the Z4 with the top up, because it was chilly that day and I couldn't bear the wind :)

To each his own though.... In the end you will buy what you like best. I think that Mazda has a good recipe here though.

If you think the Z4 feels nimble, try the S2000. :)

Originally posted by Skyline Maniac


As far as performance goes, try to accelerate a G35 to 90mph vs a TT RX7 at the same speed, and you'll see what I mean. The G feels slow
Um, the fact that the FD would get to 90 several seconds quicker probably has something to do with it too... I can demonstrate this to you if you want. :D

Originally posted by revhappy
If you think the Z4 feels nimble, try the S2000. :) Don't get me tempted :p

Actually I've been meaning to drive it.. but I haven't had the chance yet. That and the Boxter too :D

Originally posted by Hercules
Don't get me tempted :p

Actually I've been meaning to drive it.. but I haven't had the chance yet. That and the Boxter too :D

Try and test drive a used model of both cars, you'll get a much better feel for them.

I had two RX-7's... back when I was single. Back then it was nice to take a chick for a cruise. Now that I am married, a back seat just makes sense. And I can also bring the babe, and two friends to enjoy the ride.

Don poses a very interesting question here. A few months back I posted the question "Does the RX8 put too much emphasis on the rear passenger?"

Personally, a 2 door, 2X2 model with a shorter wheelbase and a more tightly tuned suspension, etc would have been what I wanted. You would lose some of the "weird" looking angles of the car (largely relating to the extended roofline and sharp angled rear window). I'm sure a good amount of weight would be shed (the suicide doors and related structural bracing and perhaps using 17 inch wheels, etc.). Basically, you would have a sports coupe, BUT it would look and perform much closer (if not exceed in many areas) to the sports/high performance cars in its price range.

Apparently, the RX8 is more of a combination of a sports sedan and a sports car. That means its more comfortable, but also heavier and more compromised.

The question really is will this be a successful design? I think it carries more risk in that there is probobly more room for error. I think there is a bigger challenge (i.e. more compromises to balance in the RX8s design than my preferred design). However, there probobly is a greater return if they hit the mark.

are you all forgetting that JSG AND EAST MOON say that the rx-8 is incredible to drive and exceptionally fast, especially in any twisties that come up?
maybe im just halucinating again, but IM PRETYY POSITIVE THAT THEY DID!
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