Yes, i know this is an RX-8 forum but u guys seem to know what you're all talking about. Anyways, i was talking to my father and he refuses to allow me to get a WRX STi. He thinks that Subaru's are entirely unstable cars. What's up with that ?! My brother was also telling me his friend's WRX is " falling apart ". My brother's friends are also not bad drivers at all. Majority of them aree experienced track racers. Someone help ! I'm getting more and more discouraged about the WRX. On another note, I'm craving this RX-8. Please be less than $30k !!!!! 'laughs'

Subaru's are nice cars. I had an AWD Flat-4 Subaru as my first car, and i loved it. I wish it was still alive. If i had to choose between the 3 cars you're mentioning, i'd go with the RX-8.... and here's why. The Subaru is ugly. Mitsubishi's suck. And the rotary engine, IMHO, is going to be the next big thing in automobile tech. With the advent of this new renesis engine, people are finally going to see the rotary's aren't just "some damn dorito shaped thing"...

Mitsubishi's, no matter how hyped up they get, will never be the same to me. I've got an Eagle Talon, and it's starting to get on my nerves. I've had more problems with that car, from transmission problems, to a badly designed head gasket, to crank walk.... ugh, they will never be on my list again.

If i were you, I'd get an RX-8.... but that could also just be a biased opinion. Why else would i be here?

Check out the Subaru forum at www.i-club.com

The major complaints were a check-engine light that would pop up occasionally and a stubborn gearbox. The car has been around for over a year now, so I figure most of the major bugs should have been discovered by now.

One thing I would be concerned about is long-term reliability, especially if the car is modded and the boost is increased.

Keep in mind, a car that's driven harder is more likely to break.

Reliability-wise, I've not heard anything about the WRXs that's bad. Most of the long-term tests I've seen around have looked good. In addition, remember that the WRX is *not* a new release car. It's been around europe and japan and australia for quite some time. As far as mods go... The Vishnu Stage 0 mod seems to be the most popular that I've heard of, yielding a 30+hp gain. In addition, it may *increase* reliability by removing a cat from the uppipe and decreasing heat under the hood. On the downside, removing that cat is illegal in many states, so Vishnu stage 0 is technically for off-road/track use only.

Personally, I like the WRX. It takes some getting used to waiting to shift until the tach sweeps past 4500 or so, so that you stay away from turbo-lag once you're moving, but it *is* a fun car. Honestly, the WRX wagon is one of the cars I'm considering outside of the RX-8, since it has a good bit of storage space when necessary. I'm really hoping the RX-8 has fold-down rear seats, though from the look of the prototypes, that seems unlikely. The WRX's turbo should also help performance at altitude, and since where I'll be moving in 3 months is at 5500ft (albuquerque), this is a consideration.

Still, the WRX doesn't look nearly as *cool* as the RX-8, and I really like the idea behind the rotary engine.

I would agree with Patrick.

The Subaru STi has 280-some horses, and it's the same engine as the 320hp rally car (so if you want to mod it some, you can.. but beware emissions!).

It's been out for a long time, and let's say it.. Subaru's AWD system is one of the best, if not THE best (though the Quattro system from Audi is touted as such a 'great' system...). Subaru's reliablity on this specific model is reasonable, but I won't say impeccable. Turbochargers tend to cause more strain on an engine, and thus you can only expect that type of thing.

However... people also don't take care of turbos. You have to let the car wind down before shutting it off. You have to rev the engine, and you can't drop the clutch every time off the line. Treat it good, and it will treat you good.

The STi is going to piss all over the RX-8... Hell, it will piss all over the BMW M3, or the M5 (by about .2 seconds on the 0-60 hehe). But going around a corner, you can't kick the tail out unless you really swerve hard... and even then, as soon as you hit the accellerator it's going to take that fun right out, understeer a lot on that turn, and bring the car into perfect straight alignment. For safety, it's immeasurable, but let's face it... it's no fun if the car keeps correcting your boo-boos, or intended boo-boos :). I personally LOVE to take hard corners, hit the throttle and let the tail out, then powerslide out of it. I can do a forward and reverse 180 with ease, whereas an AWD car won't let you unless you have the clutch down entirely and give the car no throttle.. as soon as you do though, the car is going to try to align itself and understeer.

As you can imagine.. I hate understeer. But that's just me. You have to find out what is important to you and make your decision from that. But I'll say this, at least you're not considering the Evo VII, because the STi is faster and nicer than it. Besides, I REALLY hate Mitsu cars... just terrible dealers. At least some Subaru dealers are nichers, and feel your need for speed :)

You lost me somewhere Hercules. :confused: That whole turning and throttle thing ? Someone link me to a Car Dictionary type thing please !? :D Well, your input on this has boosted my confidence. I've had my sights set on the WRX for a while, so it's comforting to know it wins the favor of others as well. Now, if only i could convince my dad that it isn't half as bad as he thinks :mad: Wish me luck !

Originally posted by bebenikkz
You lost me somewhere Hercules. :confused: That whole turning and throttle thing ? Someone link me to a Car Dictionary type thing please !? :D Well, your input on this has boosted my confidence. I've had my sights set on the WRX for a while, so it's comforting to know it wins the favor of others as well. Now, if only i could convince my dad that it isn't half as bad as he thinks :mad: Wish me luck !
Okay, try to picture a car chase in the movies...

You know how the rear end of the car whips around when it makes hard turns? That's called oversteer. In a RWD car, you can adjust the amount of the kickout by giving it more throttle.. or in other words, you can just hit the accellerator harder, and it will kick out more. The more you learn to drive a RWD car, the more you will be able to control it. You will be able to learn powersliding, which is going around a corner, but the ENTIRE CAR moves diagonally with the turn.. it's more fun than it is useful :)

In an AWD car like the Subaru, you don't have that luxury. All four wheels turn, so if you go around a curve very hard, your rear end might fly out a bit, but as soon as you tap on the gas the car will understeer and straighten itself out (understeer is when the front end of the car slides INwards, into the turn). That removes alot of fun that you can have in the car. But the AWD system will retain superior traction, as well as be a safer car. But when it comes to fun factors, every car that is meant to buy for fun (be it Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc..) is RWD. Porsches are known for their grip and accelleration off the line, and are thus, AWD.

It's all in the type of car you want, and the way you will drive it. For me, the RX-8 is ideal, because of its price, power, rotary (ahh :D), interior, exterior and the fact that I don't think EVERYBODY will buy it. The WRX is great for an all around vehicle that maintains safe travel, tenacious grip on the road, and the ability to get your car through the worst of weather. That, and it's FREAKIN FAST AS HELL :)

Hope that clears it up for ya.

Wow. That cleared it up fine, thank you. You`ve been tons of help ! :) I'm still hoping the RX-8 prices at less than $30k in the US, if not, that sucks big time ! :mad:

Originally posted by bebenikkz
Wow. That cleared it up fine, thank you. You`ve been tons of help ! :) I'm still hoping the RX-8 prices at less than $30k in the US, if not, that sucks big time ! :mad:
You should get it for just around 30k, unless the dealers gouge.

I'm not buying mine until the summer of next year, so hopefully whatever gouging dealers have done will be over with by then.

True. That's the same time period I plan on getting my car. Next Summer. If anything, tell me how it goes. :D

If your Dad questions the reliability of Subaru's, you can go to several site on the web that give info on reliability. Carpoint.com gives excellent info, and breaks down reliability for major systems on cars. They gather their data from repair shops, both dealer and independent. Consumer Reports also has a lot of info, although sometimes it is questionable when it comes to cars (they aren't car people).

I think you will find that Subaru has been making pretty good cars for a while.

I took some Y2K JD power scores and averaged the model scores by make. Then sorted them from lowest to highest, lower being better

Subaru's ranks #32 out of 37

Here is the full list

Make Average
1 Lexus 93
2 Acura 98
3 BMW 109
4 Jaguar 117
5 Porsche 117
6 Infiniti 118
7 Mercedes-Benz 126
8 Toyota 128
9 Buick 130
10 Honda 133
11 Saab 136
12 Lincoln 137
13 Audi 141
14 Mazda 150
15 Chrysler 154
16 Mercury 155
17 Plymouth 155
18 Cadillac 156
19 Nissan 158
20 Oldsmobile 159
21 Volvo 159
22 Dodge 165
23 Ford 167
24 Mitsubishi 167
25 Chevrolet 171
26 Pontiac 173
27 Saturn 173
28 GMC 177
29 Land 178
30 Jeep 192
31 Volkswagen 198
32 Subaru 199
33 Isuzu 200
34 Hyundai 204
35 Daewoo 213
36 Suzuki 222
37 Kia 263

Remember that JD Power ranks every problem equally!!

Originally posted by Hercules

(understeer is when the front end of the car slides INwards, into the turn

That sounds like a consequence of oversteer. Understeer is when the front wheels begin to lose grip aroung a turn, and the car takes the turn wider than anticipated, requiring more steering. Also thought of as PLOWING.

Hercules: I don't think you should be giving out driving technique advice. Either you really don't know how to drive well, or you've just never had the experience in an AWD car.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and think the latter.

In the WRX-STi, you can easily oversteer or understeer. As people say, AWD has the drawbacks from RWD and FWD put on one car.

But it also has the positives, depending on how you look at it.

Trust me, though, I could take my Impreza 2.5RS, and easily do longer, more controlled drifts than you could dream of doing in any RWD car.

Also, little tidbit fact, the world record for driving sideways? Yep, Subaru WRX did it last year in England. The guy held a constant drift around a skidpad for a couple of hours...basically until he ran out of gas :D

edit: for what it's worth. I've had a 2000 Impreza 2.5RS for two years now, and the only problem was a recall on an O2 sensor. Of course, the only reason I got it replaced was because I could. It never went bad.

And yes, I've beat the hell out of my car :) I've done TSD rallies, rallycrosses, winter rally school, and many autocrosses. She's even been hit by other drivers a couple times; and my baby's still going strong! :)

Originally posted by bebenikkz
Wow. That cleared it up fine, thank you. You`ve been tons of help ! :)

Something about the value of free advice comes to mind...
I'd suggest treating everything you read on the internet, particularly message boards like this one, with extreme skepticism.

I'm not terribly interested in owning the WRX, but I think it's much more of a close competitor than Hercules suggests. If you are seriously considering both (and I think it's always a good idea to keep your options open), I'd do a bit more research than just asking on here. You may have done this already, but I'd try to find a WRX forum and ask for their advice. The info you'll get there is just as biased, and dare I say ignorant, as what you've gotten here, but at least it'll balance the bias somewhat.

IMHO, the WRX (I don't know much about the STi) is probably the second or third most intriguing car that's out right now for less than 30k. I'd do a lot more research before buying, including a test drive of every car you're considering.

Last, if your parents are paying for it, it's really up to them. I get the impression (my apologies if this is incorrect) that you're in your teens and they will be paying a significant portion of the cost. Will you be paying for insurance, or will they? AWD does provide some safety benefits, so I'd be surprised if they were more likely to let you get the RX-8. Then again, the idea of a teenager getting a new car is far more shocking to me, so I guess that isn't much more of a stretch.

Rich, I think I pointed out that it is my personal preference not to own a WRX. I don't prefer the understeer of the car, nor do I want such 'great' traction at all times :D

Like I said, it's just my personal opinion, and the cars are both very capable but of different things. Donuts and stupid stuff (things you shouldn't do anyway) aren't possible (or at least, very very hard) in an AWD car. RWD takes a lot more time to learn and control properly (something which I still need practice at), but allows you to spin the car in various directions to have some fun :)

The speedwise, WRX will blow away the RX-8, and I don't deny it. The grip on the corners will be better as well. But still, I don't consider it a direct competitor to the RX-8 because the two cars are capable of different things, and also involve a different class of driver.

Besides, if your parents think that the WRX is not reliable, then wait till you say "ROTARY"... I can only imagine.

Originally posted by Rich


Something about the value of free advice comes to mind...
I'd suggest treating everything you read on the internet, particularly message boards like this one, with extreme skepticism.

I'm not terribly interested in owning the WRX, but I think it's much more of a close competitor than Hercules suggests. If you are seriously considering both (and I think it's always a good idea to keep your options open), I'd do a bit more research than just asking on here. You may have done this already, but I'd try to find a WRX forum and ask for their advice. The info you'll get there is just as biased, and dare I say ignorant, as what you've gotten here, but at least it'll balance the bias somewhat.

IMHO, the WRX (I don't know much about the STi) is probably the second or third most intriguing car that's out right now for less than 30k. I'd do a lot more research before buying, including a test drive of every car you're considering.

Last, if your parents are paying for it, it's really up to them. I get the impression (my apologies if this is incorrect) that you're in your teens and they will be paying a significant portion of the cost. Will you be paying for insurance, or will they? AWD does provide some safety benefits, so I'd be surprised if they were more likely to let you get the RX-8. Then again, the idea of a teenager getting a new car is far more shocking to me, so I guess that isn't much more of a stretch.

It doesn't hurt to say thanks for sharing his opinion. Hercules has been replying to my posts and i'm glad he has. I know this whole message board is just to get some tips and advice here and there. Just because certain individuals view a car the way they do doesn't neccessarily mean I'm going to agree with what they say, but I do take their perspectives into considerartion. I am a teen but not incompetent of making my own decisions.

On your last note, I plan on paying for my car for the most part. I don't even think the car will be under either of their names, for my own preference. The most I'm looking for from them is some money for a down payment, but let's not get so into details.

Teenager with a vew car. Yes, I've thought about that myself. Truth is, I don't even know how to drive, but I should have my license by next summer. Why am I even considering cars already ? Because I want to make the right choice and think about what I need to do to make the ride worth while. Get me ?

Originally posted by bebenikkz


It doesn't hurt to say thanks for sharing his opinion. Hercules has been replying to my posts and i'm glad he has. I know this whole message board is just to get some tips and advice here and there. Just because certain individuals view a car the way they do doesn't neccessarily mean I'm going to agree with what they say, but I do take their perspectives into considerartion. I am a teen but not incompetent of making my own decisions.

On your last note, I plan on paying for my car for the most part. I don't even think the car will be under either of their names, for my own preference. The most I'm looking for from them is some money for a down payment, but let's not get so into details.

Teenager with a vew car. Yes, I've thought about that myself. Truth is, I don't even know how to drive, but I should have my license by next summer. Why am I even considering cars already ? Because I want to make the right choice and think about what I need to do to make the ride worth while. Get me ?
If it's your first car, you can bet you'll get into an accident with it, regardless... it's just the way it works out for first time drivers :D

I'd just get a crappier car, and then beat on it... then get your next one.

If it's your first car, you can bet you'll get into an accident with it, regardless... it's just the way it works out for first time drivers

Heh, true enough. You may not wreck it, but you'll do *something* unpleasant. I remember my first stupidity with my first car. Parking lot at the place where I worked had a very slight downslope toward a curb that had a4 foot drop-off. Got in the car, started it, thought it was in reverse... gave a little gas and some clutch and it started to roll forward, so I gave it more gas and more clutch to "counteract" the hill. And so on.

Turns out I was in first gear, not reverse. Ended up hanging the car on the frame behind the front wheels, with the front wheels in the front wheel drive car in the air over the dropoff behind the curb. *Doh* Luckily some passers-by were close-by enough to help inch the car back to where the front wheels caught the curve and I could pop the car back onto the pavement.

Fortunately, little damage to speak of, and that's the worst I've ever done to a car. Not that I didn't have close calls once or twice when I was first learning, but it's hard to do too much in an 8-year-old 1980 honda accord 5-speed. :)

i'm trying very hard to not use harsh language but i think a person who isn't old enough to drive should not be considering what brand new car to purchase. get a beater or better yet borrow mom and dad's cars for a while. getting a new car at 16 is irresponsible at best. just the thought of the insurance bill for a brand new sports car for a 16 year old male should be enough to change your mind. especially the way the cost would skyrocket if you were involved in anything remotely wrong while driving such a vehicle. no one would insure you seperately and if you got justv one speeding ticket or were involved in one minor fender bender, you could cause your parents rates to double or worse the company would drop them and they would have a real difficult time finding new insuance.
i could go on but i know you don't really want to hear me rant on this topic so i'm done now

Originally posted by zoom44
i'm trying very hard to not use harsh language but i think a person who isn't old enough to drive should not be considering what brand new car to purchase. get a beater or better yet borrow mom and dad's cars for a while. getting a new car at 16 is irresponsible at best. just the thought of the insurance bill for a brand new sports car for a 16 year old male should be enough to change your mind. especially the way the cost would skyrocket if you were involved in anything remotely wrong while driving such a vehicle. no one would insure you seperately and if you got justv one speeding ticket or were involved in one minor fender bender, you could cause your parents rates to double or worse the company would drop them and they would have a real difficult time finding new insuance.
i could go on but i know you don't really want to hear me rant on this topic so i'm done now
I restrained myself as well, so don't worry :)

It is true, a first car should NEVER be a new car. EVER. You simply don't have the responsibility to handle a car of the RX-8 or the STi caliber. Sorry, but that's the truth. Maybe in 3 or 4 years after sufficient experience in ANY car will give you an inkling into sitting yourself into one of those cars.

I'm inclined to agree... you can have just as much fun in an older, less extreme vehicle, and gain your first driving experiences while saving a lot of money.... Somthing more expensive comes later! I've always had second hand cars, and I don't believe that I missed out.... the RX-8 will probably be the only car I buy new... and if it's as good and as reliable as it's supposed to be it will be for a LONG time.

Originally posted by BlueAdept
I'm inclined to agree... you can have just as much fun in an older, less extreme vehicle, and gain your first driving experiences while saving a lot of money.... Somthing more expensive comes later! I've always had second hand cars, and I don't believe that I missed out.... the RX-8 will probably be the only car I buy new... and if it's as good and as reliable as it's supposed to be it will be for a LONG time. See, the thing here is that I had no idea HOW to have fun until I totally destroyed one car, and then beat the crap out of another (and that still runs.. suprisingly).

I was 'learning' how to drive the first car I got for about a good year, pushing its limits slowly and learning what it could do (it was an old Nissan Sentra, stickshift). Looking back, if I had a REALLY fast car, I think I'd kill myself if I had it when I first got a car.

True. I agree with what you guys are saying for the most part. I wouldn`t really mind getting a second hand car, but the whole idea seems like one big hassle to me. I live in the city with all its bumps, pot holes, sewage covers, endless construction, the whole nine. Sometimes the cars around here require so many repairs that it's just not worth it. Might as well buy a new, "cheap" car, but after all, I am only 16. By the time I finish paying off that car, I'll be financially drained. I'd dread the idea of having to continuously work in order to pay for a new car. Then comes the desire to sell the "old car". I imagine people would think about the same things I ponder such as "why is she selling it ? must be something wrong even though it seems just fine. " I just don't see that idea being worth the effort.

As far as mommy and daddy's car goes, Daddy's BMW 325ix is currently sitting in the driveway broken due to my brother's wreckless driving. Oh BTW, my father's car is a second hand car, which he ended up putting $10K+ into. Imagine where that $10K could have gone into instead. He could have gotten a new, reliable car. Then again, the occassional bad driving of himself, my brother and others are responsible for the cash flow as well. And as far as my mother is concerned, God forbid she go and get her license and learn how to drive. 'laughs' I'm her next victim :eek:

Originally posted by bebenikkz
True. I agree with what you guys are saying for the most part. I wouldn`t really mind getting a second hand car, but the whole idea seems like one big hassle to me. I live in the city with all its bumps, pot holes, sewage covers, endless construction, the whole nine. Sometimes the cars around here require so many repairs that it's just not worth it. Might as well buy a new, "cheap" car, but after all, I am only 16. By the time I finish paying off that car, I'll be financially drained. I'd dread the idea of having to continuously work in order to pay for a new car. Then comes the desire to sell the "old car". I imagine people would think about the same things I ponder such as "why is she selling it ? must be something wrong even though it seems just fine. " I just don't see that idea being worth the effort.

As far as mommy and daddy's car goes, Daddy's BMW 325ix is currently sitting in the driveway broken due to my brother's wreckless driving. Oh BTW, my father's car is a second hand car, which he ended up putting $10K+ into. Imagine where that $10K could have gone into instead. He could have gotten a new, reliable car. Then again, the occassional bad driving of himself, my brother and others are responsible for the cash flow as well. And as far as my mother is concerned, God forbid she go and get her license and learn how to drive. 'laughs' I'm her next victim :eek:
BMW, Audi, Mercedes... these are companies that will ALL get you into a lot of repair money, mostly due to electrical problems, though whatever goes wrong costs more to fix.

If I were you, I'd get a used Maxima (stick if you can get it), Miata (oh boy that will STILL let you have a LOTTA FUN), or a Protege.

Those cars won't cost anything to fix (barely), will give you TONS of fun, and provide you a good learning experience without draining all the money out of your pockets.

I agree with Herc, get yourself something as a bridge to a sports car, something that won't break your heart if and when you smack it up. As a beginning driver you won't know when you've gone over the line until you are out of control. It's all a part of learning, it happens to everyone. I'm sure most "real" drivers have crashed at least one car, I know I have.

[broken record mode]

The fastest, safest, and most enjoyable way to learn your cars abilities is to either take a racing course or autocross. There are too many idiots out there who think they know car control and go over the edge on public roads. Going over the edge is the only way to really learn where the edge is, and on the autocross course it's safe to do so. That way you won't bust up your car, and you'll become a better driver at the same time.

It's also the most fun you'll have in your car while (at least while alone ;)).

Check out www.autocross.com and www.scca.org for more info.

[/broken record mode]

here comes yet another opinion to throw in the pot of stone soup. i think a big reason to go for the cheaper car is also so you wont be tied down with bills. you said you intend to pay for most of it yourself. if this is the case, then it seems like the next few years for you would kinda suck financially since youre earning power wont be anything significant until after high school at the earliest. this translates into little-to-no money for social things like movies, dates, dinner out, etc. this may eventually may cause you to hate the car since you will feel financially chained to it. it seems like something that would get you from A to B in a relatively fun manner without stretching your wallet to the max would be optimal. this way, the most free years of your life can be spent doing other fun things besides just driving a cool car.

oh and also, i have a hunch you will need to have the car under one of your parent's names as co-owner or whatever just for insurance purposes. being as you are still a minor, i dont think you can legally get your own insurance policy. and even if you could, it would more than likely cost way more than if you were on your parents policy.

either way, good luck with the decision!

Originally posted by Hercules
Like I said, it's just my personal opinion, and the cars are both very capable but of different things. Donuts and stupid stuff (things you shouldn't do anyway) aren't possible (or at least, very very hard) in an AWD car. RWD takes a lot more time to learn and control properly (something which I still need practice at), but allows you to spin the car in various directions to have some fun :)

Ugh, are you ignoring my posts? You CAN donut in an AWD car. I've done it, and seen plenty of videos of them doing such things.

In the Subaru world, we like to call them "Scoob-nuts" :)

' shrugs ' decisions, decisions. That's all a year or so from now, guess so I'll just have to see how things work out and how much money I manage to save up. Nonetheless, your opinions are appreciated. Good luck with this RX-8 business ! Keep the new info coming as well !

Originally posted by Renesis Rex
.... And the rotary engine, IMHO, is going to be the next big thing in automobile tech.....

Oh, we haven't heard THAT before! That was all over the place in the 60's & 70's....didn't catch on. Mazda, I believe, is being very cautious with the RX-8, which is a VERY good thing.

Michael

as suggested already, check out i-club and join one of the regional forums.

tri-state
http://forums.i-club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=16

new england
http://forums.i-club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=18

Go to their meetings and autocross, use your free SCCA membership from the car purchase. Those guys will be more than happy to show you how to launch an AWD car properly and make proper gear selections. Lots of people get the wrong info from other forums from preconceived prejudices or they might have watched a japanese video somewhere. All it takes is a track event and you can decide for yourself.

Me personally, I suggest you don't buy the WRX. Buy something else. A Miata is a great first car. After you get used to it, power increase is easy and reletively cheap(cheaper than the IHI turbo upgrade for the WRX).

Have fun, support you local SCCA!!

Originally posted by JGard18


Ugh, are you ignoring my posts? You CAN donut in an AWD car. I've done it, and seen plenty of videos of them doing such things.

In the Subaru world, we like to call them "Scoob-nuts" :)
Well, HOW?

RWD involves locking the front wheels, giving it some gas and boom.. you got smoke. In an AWD car you can't lock the front wheels because... they are going to turn..

So explain it to me! I'm curious :)

I remember seeing a A4/S4 doing a reverse donut it was very cool!! He just swung it in reverse and he was off, surace was not dry however

Originally posted by stan11003
I remember seeing a A4/S4 doing a reverse donut it was very cool!! He just swung it in reverse and he was off, surace was not dry however
Are you sure that wasn't just a reverse 180? They aren't that hard to do if you pull the handbrake, or if it's wet outside. Donuts are something different :)

Hi Herc, since JGard hasn't replied, I'll take a stab at it.

From the very beggining; we agree the condition as discribed is from result of loss of traction, right? taking away variables such as tire condition, brake bias, weight distribution, diff settings, we can say a drift is a directional change with the atitude of the car in another direction(yaw). Given enough initial velocity and acceleration, you change direction, in this case you bring the back end around. Applying more power, bringing the back end around doing 360 and continue applying power, you get the "donut". From FR standpoint, the axis of rev is a point in front of the car. In a AWD, the axis of rev is closer, some car actually can revolve on itself(WRC cars, from diff setup, which is desired).

re-edited; see post below.

Originally posted by Hercules

Well, HOW?

RWD involves locking the front wheels, giving it some gas and boom.. you got smoke. In an AWD car you can't lock the front wheels because... they are going to turn..

So explain it to me! I'm curious :)

Its easy. For donuts, in a RWD car, you really don't want to lock the front wheels, just turn them...then it'll spin around and around. On an AWD car you just spin all four, and its really cool, kinda spins on its axis. I watched my friends DSM do that once('97 GS-X with a Mutt level 3(I think) turbo).

Michael

Check out Consumer Reports ratings for anything you're considering purchasing. PLEASE do some homework other than listening to people on internet message boards. You sound like you are pretty thorough and taking this with a grain of salt, so maybe I'm telling you something you already know. Just gather the 'evidence' and show your parents info to backup your decision.

The WRX CAN drift given a driver that knows how to do so. No, it's not as simple as a RWD car, but it most definately can be done. I've managed to spin my WRX on a road coarse as well as during an auto cross. The 2 instructors I've had owned a Porshe RWD (not 4wd, i forget which model) and a M3. They thought the drifts in my car were a blast and both joked about buying a WRX. These are 2 very experienced track drivers that had not ridden in a WRX before. As far as fun factor goes, I'd say the WRX has quite a bit.

Any car can be setup for under or over steer, it's just a matter of making some changes to alignment and suspension. WRX's show some understeer in stock form but simply increasing the size of the rear sway bar can help that out a bunch. I've added bigger front and rear sway bars along with coilovers and now have a very neutral car.

I have to correct Hercules on the Evo VII vs. WRX STi, the Mitsubishi is generally the quicker of the two. It has a better awd system that does not favor drifting around the track.

Bebenikkz, try to catch up with I-Club people at an autocross or track event. I bet they'd love to show you what their cars can do and how much fun they are.

If you're going to be paying for the car yourself, you might look for something used. If your parents were paying for it, I'd say screw all the guys here talking about you WILL do something terrible to it, but don't get yourself into car payments that require you to work every waking minute.

Good luck!
Evan

heh, thanks for answering the AWD donut question for me :) I was away all weekend.

Anyway, there are kinda two ways. One, as mentioned above...but also another.

When said AWD car has an LSD front, as many do, then it's really no problem.

The front inside tire will remain pretty much still, while the three others are spinning.

You don't start them off the same as with RWD. In RWD, you can turn the front wheels and just gas it. In AWD, you build up some speed (maybe 20-30mph), crank the wheel and give the brakes a stab at the same time, this will lose your rear-end. Once it starts coming around, you gas it.

There's a little more to it than that, but that's the general idea :)

Originally posted by stan11003
Remember that JD Power ranks every problem equally!!

The problem with JD power is that they rank initial quality problems. What are you more concerned about the engine going or a nob comming loose? JD power evalutes the later, because major problems are unlikely to occur very early. Consumers' reports ranks subaru very nicely whereas most of GMs products look rather crappy.