I know you guys like pictures. :D
I had some time today, so I started with the manifold.
First, I welded a set of supports between the inlet flange (engine side) and the outlet flange (CAT side).
This keeps the two flanges in alignment even after I cut out all of the existing manifold.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/Guide%20Support.JPG

Then, I cut away the manifold parts that I don't need. The OEM manifold is stamped steel, rather than cast iron like most OEM manifolds.
It is also double-layer.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/Cutting.JPG

Then, I began welding small sections of pipe. I will build it up section by section just like this. I am stopping at this point until I have more time.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/Second%20Pipe.JPG

Wow this is going to be a great way for me to learn more about Turbo plumbing. Maybe once you get it all together you can create a DIY forum post showing all the stages you went through along the way.

BTW, what kind of welder do you use, and how much would it cost to get my hands on one?

I use a Millermatic welder like this one (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/productdetail.jsp?xi=xi&ItemId=1613487215&ccitem=):

http://www.grainger.com/images/products/1WG27.JPG

It is also outfitted with an argon/carbon dioxide tank for welding steel and a pure argon tank for aluminum.

I know I'm a geek, but I really derive a great deal of joy from welding.
Learning to do aluminum a few weeks ago really put me on cloud nine. :D

Is there a way you can trace the flange shape and port outlets onto a piece of posterboard and send it to me?

How heavy is the stock manifold? The reason I ask is I figured it was cast iron like most as you said. I was thinking that a new header would give some weight savings but it sounds like new headers won't do much in the way of weight.

.........only a hundreth of the way there now. :)

Envious , wish i was more mechanically wired . :cool:

cheers
michael

Is there a way you can trace the flange shape and port outlets onto a piece of posterboard and send it to me?
Absolutely. Send me your address (e-mail is better than PM) and I'll send you an Illustrator EPS along with the tracing.

.........only a hundreth of the way there now. :)
Well, not quite. :rolleyes:

I'm in San Francisco for a few days. When I get home, I'll finish the manifold. That is the hard part. The IC plumbing is the next most difficult part, but I can keep the car on the road while I do that.

Sounds good. Keep us posted.
Godspeed...

Absolutely. Send me your address (e-mail is better than PM) and I'll send you an Illustrator EPS along with the tracing.


You rock! Thanks. Check your e-mail.

Well, not quite. :rolleyes:

I'm in San Francisco for a few days. When I get home, I'll finish the manifold. That is the hard part. The IC plumbing is the next most difficult part, but I can keep the car on the road while I do that.

I meant that you're only a fraction of the way to completing the turbo setup. :)

I meant that you're only a fraction of the way to completing the turbo setup. :)
I understood that and I was refuting the statement.
Once the manifold is done, I will be nearly complete. Everything else is very simple.

what material are you using for the new pipe? for turbo manifolds it is std practice in australia to use steam pipe bends (seamless). they are thick walled and are suposed to last longer than exhaust pipe manifolds. you can get it in stainless or high carbon(?) steel.

I have a few pics but need to work out XP so I can up-load them :o

what material are you using for the new pipe? for turbo manifolds it is std practice in australia to use steam pipe bends (seamless). they are thick walled and are suposed to last longer than exhaust pipe manifolds. you can get it in stainless or high carbon(?) steel.

I have a few pics but need to work out XP so I can up-load them :o
What you are describing are called "weld els". They are very heavy and difficult to cut. I am using 16ga aluminized and stainless steel mandrel bends.
I am welding them double walled just like the OEM manifold.
If it is good enough for Mazda, it is good enough for me.

DAMN I wish I had more money!

Anybody wanna send me a few thou so I can get a welder, and buy enough suplies to learn how to weld?

What you are describing are called "weld els". They are very heavy and difficult to cut. I am using 16ga aluminized and stainless steel mandrel bends.
I am welding them double walled just like the OEM manifold.
If it is good enough for Mazda, it is good enough for me.

I just wanted you to be aware of std practice. I belive the reason performance shops choose weld els is that they are less likly to blow through as they don't want customers comming back every 3-6 months complaining about repairs.
I know your aware that the std manifold is only double walled for insulation and not strength.

weld els aren't hard to cut you can go through them with a hacksaw in under a minute.

I'm sure you have done the research and thumbs up for having a go.

Weld-els are super thick and very durable. It is really hard not to weld them good. Typically they are sold as schedule 40 carbon steel. It is possible but much more difficult to find thinner ones. Stainless is harder to weld and mild steel doesn't last as long. The most important reason why people use weld-els is because they are extremely cheap. A couple of bucks per. I built a turbo manifold for an RX-7 out of these. I spent $20 on the weld-els but $40 on the flanges. That is still very cheap for a manifold. There is a severe weight penalty though. They are very heavy. You can't cut through these with a hacksaw in under a minute. Maybe 30 if you're good.

Weld-els are super thick and very durable. It is really hard not to weld them good. Typically they are sold as schedule 40 carbon steel. They are very heavy. You can't cut through these with a hacksaw in under a minute. Maybe 30 if you're good.

I must be excelent then ;) the manifold I made was a 4cyl split pulse design lots of bends/cuts and each was done by hand. I even butchered lots by cutting on the wrong angle or where I changed the design. :D

I takes me about a full minute to cut through a weld el with an 11,000 RPM angle grinder with a carbon steel cut-off wheel.

I've gotta call BS on the under a minute with a hacksaw.

It takes me more than a minute to get through an 18ga piece of mild steel 3" tubing. :rolleyes:

The problem is the manifold is going to have a very complex shape for weld els.

The double wall design will function for strength and insulation.

I've got a pretty good handle on what I am doing. :p

Look what Santa dropped in my garage this evening:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/assy_3.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/assy_4.jpg

Now I need to fabricate the insulating layer and the bracket for the WG actuator.
The insulation will be thin-gauge steel with a small section of header wrap to keep the heat away from the compressor and the passenger's feet. :rolleyes:.

I struggled for a few days with trying to make a sexy tubular manifold until I realized that I could get significantly more flow by going to a log with a bigger main tube. The main tube (though it is flattened which doesn't reduce flow, just the shape - the inside cross section still has the same area) is 3" compared to the factory 2.5". The collectors in my tubular design were 2".
The other struggle was getting the angle of the inlet flange (and thus the position of the turbo) right and get it tacked up while holding the whole thing in one hand and the welding gun in the other, all the while lying on my back under the car. Now I need a chiropractor. :mad:

BTW - the turbo is canted 25° from horizontal. Corky Bell says it is OK to go up to 30° and still have adequate oil drain flow.

Hopefully, I won't run out of CO2 before Monday. If so, I will switch over to the aluminum piping since I have a seperate argon tank for that.

HO! HO! HOLY COW! ... Looks like fun...

One more:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/assy_2.jpg

:cool: What would be the total expense of your unit when complete , not counting your labour .

Will you be giving us some DIY instructions :)

cheers
michael

Got the template made yet??? Yes I'm going to be a whiney little turd until I get one!!! Waaaaaaa!!!!!!! :D

do you have any pics of the manifold without the turbo on it?

Got the template made yet??? Yes I'm going to be a whiney little turd until I get one!!! Waaaaaaa!!!!!!! :D

yeah... that's two threads that I've found you posting for templates in.. :p this begs the questions... is this just curiousity or are you thinking about building something?? hmm... inquiring minds wanna know. :confused:

I may be doing a east coast road trip in a few weeks..can I stop by and check it out?

I'll buy the beer.

I may be doing a east coast road trip in a few weeks..can I stop by and check it out?

I'll buy the beer.
Absolutely.
PM me when you are coming around and I'll give you contact info.

do u live in jersey?

You're to young for the beer magix..

No soup for you!

Snap-on,

Make sure you take your mini spy camera and get all the specs on it!! :)

Got the template made yet??? Yes I'm going to be a whiney little turd until I get one!!! Waaaaaaa!!!!!!! :D
How about this attached PDF?

Snap-on,

Make sure you take your mini spy camera and get all the specs on it!! :)
Why would he need to do that? I'm posting everything right here as I make it.

Practically in real time.

do u live in jersey? Maryland.

Just an interested bystander..amazed at your work as I am..

How about this attached PDF?
That might work. I'll have to see if I can get it to print up actual size. That attachment doesn't quite have the whole thing.

I might have something planned. ;)

That is the exhaust manifold gasket. It is exactly port-matched to the manifold itself.
The PDF is full size.
The only difference between the manifold and the gasket are the supports between the ports and the tube that feeds the air pump ports.

I'll try to do one with paper and pencil, though it is bigger than any paper I have around at the moment.

Only 2 out of 3 ports are visable in that file. I assume they are spaced exactly the same between both sides and are both the same size. They should be. The question is where are the mounting holes on that side?

How close is that turbo to the engine mount? It's got to be right up next to it.

Fred you never seem to sleep, makes me wonder. Every other post is written during vampire hours.

Fred you never seem to sleep, makes me wonder. Every other post is written during vampire hours.

oh, that must explain the blood stains in Fred's car. He told me it was b/c being a real estate agent is rough in Houston :D

Only 2 out of 3 ports are visable in that file. I assume they are spaced exactly the same between both sides and are both the same size. They should be. The question is where are the mounting holes on that side? :confused: The entire gasket is in that file. There must be something wrong with your version of Acrobat. Try scrolling down. Remember, it is full size which is about 14".

How close is that turbo to the engine mount? It's got to be right up next to it. The intake port on the turbo just clears it. I'll have more pictures soon enough.

How about this attached PDF?


When I pull it up I only see 11 Inches of the 14 inch file. I really don't think anything is wrong with Acrobat. I have version 5 somthing.

OK. Lets try again:

omg! bewst! where can i download me some?!

OK. Lets try again:

Much better..all the ports are in the PDF now..Thanks.

second pdf has the whole thing now jeff. thanks for the pics its looking realy nice:)

Thanks. Lots more coming tonight!

btw if you just happen to fab up a second one by accident you can just put it in a box and ups it to me. cod the freight :)

btw if you just happen to fab up a second one by accident you can just put it in a box and ups it to me. cod the freight :)

Yeah, and Zoom44 actually live in Keizer, Oregon. PM me and I will give you the address. ;)

btw if you just happen to fab up a second one by accident you can just put it in a box and ups it to me. cod the freight :)
I could probably swing that.
Freight might be a little pricey, though.;)

Got most of the rest of the piping done today.

Mounted the IC:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/IC_1.jpg

Got the pipes from the airbox and to the throttle body along with the TurboXS BOV:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/pipe_1.jpg

Turbo is nicely hidden away:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/turbo_in.jpg

Now I need to do the oil supply and drain and connect the pipes to the turbo.
Then, I have to fab the bracket for the WG actuator and a bunch of support brackets for the various pipes to the body or engine and the downpipe to the transmission.
Then, I will put in some heat shields and wrap.

Then, I get to take it all out and clean, polish and re-fit.

Lookin pretty good. You've really got that turbo crammed in there!

wow
that is out of control

great job

May I have one Please!!!!!

Jeff sorry for the stupidity in this question, but it made me wonder:
The intercooler stands in front of the radiator, won't that cause any problems?
I know very little about turbos. I never onwed a turocharged car:)

Great job

Has anybody given thought to if the electric throtle body can take being pressurized?

Jeff

You have managed to get your turbo system up in a few weeks while the others have been plutsing around for months..... awesome

A driven knowledgeble person can achieve more on his own than a bunch of so called experienced wankels .

cheers
michael

Actually I would like to stop by and check out your work if I could. I'm in Alexandria. Shoot me an e-mail at jrcrew@hotmail.com if its okay.

Jeff,
When you're all done, can you give us a total cost of parts and list what you used? Everything looks great in this setup, I just worry about how hot that turbo is gonna get crammed in there like that.

Has anybody given thought to if the electric throtle body can take being pressurized? The TB will never have to hold pressure.
When it is closed, the BOV is open. When there is pressure, the TB is open.

The intercooler stands in front of the radiator, won't that cause any problems? No, it shouldn't. It is a relatively short IC and only blocks a very small part of the lower bumper ducting. It is actually situated mostly behind the center grille. I think the total airflow will be suffciently close to stock.

Jeff,
When you're all done, can you give us a total cost of parts and list what you used? Here is the list so far:

http://www.rx8club.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37336

The turbo on this list actually ended up in my Miata. I am using the T3/T4 that was on my Miata on the RX-8. It was entirely too large for the little 1.8 in the MX-5. Turbonetics Stage 3 Exhaust Wheel in .63 Housing, 54 Compressor Wheel in .50 A/R, Oil Cooled with 360 Degree Race Bearings and a Ceramic Coated Exhaust Housing.

I will create a new thread when I am done that details the installation a little more closely with much more detail.

Everything looks great in this setup, I just worry about how hot that turbo is gonna get crammed in there like that.
It all occupies the same space as the OEM exhaust manifold. That is why I did it like this.
The other systems out there (except Greddy) put the turbo in a place where, I feel, the heat will be a bigger problem.
The only issue with having the turbo where it is in my setup is shielding the compressor from the heat. I have a bunch of clever heat blocking parts that I will show when I finalize the installation.

Ya wanna give me that picture one more time? When the TB is open it is equal pressure to the manifold. So if you have over ambiant you have a delta pressure in the TB. How does one get around that?

IE: if you have 10 psi in the manifold you have it in the TB also. You have it in the tract all the way to the turbo.


Edit) OK I see what you meant, across the blade. That is not what I mean, I am talking from inside to outside and into the electronic compartment.

OK I see what you meant, across the blade. That is not what I mean, I am talking from inside to outside and into the electronic compartment.
Why would there be a direct connection to the drive motor/electronics?

Even if there were, why would pressure be any different than vacuum?

I don't know, just throwing it out for thought.

Well, I would hope that the bore of the TB is sealed off from the outside world or we would have a huge idle issue! :D

sorry i might have missed the post but how much boost u expecting to get from this setup

oh forgot to say looks good so far......keep it up

On the T3/T4 that I am using, I can "get" up to 21 PSI or so. That would last for about 2 or 3 seconds. :rolleyes:

I will be starting at zero PSI to shake it all down and then I will move up to 5 PSI and then 7 PSI which is all the OEM fuel injection will handle safely.
After that, I am going to add two more fuel injectors to the main runners of the intake manifold so I can go to 9 PSI. I think that is all the stock seals will be happy with.

I am moving incrementally so that I can document all of the changes and be certain that I am not missing something critical that costs me my motor.

I am also limited by my budget, which I am very strict about - it is one of my design goals to keep the entire budget under $3500 (my $50/HP ratio that I maintain as a minimum for all of my serious projects).
Of course, I managed much more out of the Miata and my MX-3 ($30 and $27 per 1 HP, respectively), so we'll see what the final ratio works out to be.

Jeff

You have managed to get your turbo system up in a few weeks while the others have been plutsing around for months..... awesome

A driven knowledgeble person can achieve more on his own than a bunch of so called experienced wankels .

cheers
michael
Well, it is not up quite yet. Hopefully, I won't find out why the other folks are having such a difficult time. I should be back on the road by the end of the week.

PS - In the second sentence above, replace "driven" with "impatient" and "knowledgeable" with "idiot savant" and you will be more on the mark.http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/smiles/jump3.gif

Jeff , She looks like she is shaping up very nice. Good luck. Also the throttle body is a ford unit that they use on the SC mustang so it will be fine. Actually the ford TB has been proven over the past years it is a strong unit. They use it on all the SVT lines and anything ford owns with Drive by wire :) .

-Ryan

Jeff , She looks like she is shaping up very nice. Good luck. Also the throttle body is a ford unit that they use on the SC mustang so it will be fine. Actually the ford TB has been proven over the past years it is a strong unit. They use it on all the SVT lines and anything ford owns with Drive by wire :) .

-Ryan
Cool! Thanks for the info , Ryan. :D

Actually I would like to stop by and check out your work if I could. I'm in Alexandria. Shoot me an e-mail at jrcrew@hotmail.com if its okay.

We need to schedule an "ogle-the-turbo" meet, haha.

We need to schedule an "ogle-the-turbo" meet, haha.
Well, join MSCW (http://www.mscw.com/)and you will see it at the next meeting, February 2nd.

I see in the other thread that the manifold is done already...but how did you build a double-wall manifold? I'm familiar with the weld-els from a buddy's project, but I'm having trouble picturing how you would build double-wall tubing yourself for the mani.

thanks for the answer jeff
your job is amazing...

I see in the other thread that the manifold is done already...but how did you build a double-wall manifold? I'm familiar with the weld-els from a buddy's project, but I'm having trouble picturing how you would build double-wall tubing yourself for the mani.
I didn't use weld-els.

The main "log" is a heavily worked 18GA 2.5" pipe that is flattened and shaped to fit over the ports and direct the flow to the turbo inlet.
Then, I welded a second "layer of 18GA steel over the main tube and reinforced that with 1/16" steel strips.
Then, the whole thing is shielded with steel and aluminum plate.

Well, join MSCW (http://www.mscw.com/)and you will see it at the next meeting, February 2nd.

I'm already a member ;)

I just wanted you to be aware of std practice.


we typically try to avoid std's, thank you. :D

I know you didn't use weld-els, sorry for my confusing wording.

So you welded layer 2 directly to layer 1? Or you 'built' layer 2 piece by piece around layer one, so that they don't come in contact?

Just try to visualize the method...in the final result do layer 1 and layer 2 touch each other? Or are they separated?

Jeff, just out of curiousity, how much boost are you planning on running when you complete this?

0 Psi for comfirmation of no leaks then 3 PSI for testing and verification of drivability.
After everything shakes out, 7 PSI or so depending on fueling.

Once I am happy with the system as a whole, I will add two additional injectors to the intake runners just after where it joins the plastic to the aluminum (controlled by the E-Manage) and then run 9 or more, once again depending on tuning.

This all follows how I did it on my other cars and it seems to work.

I am mechanically limited by my wastegate actuator to 7 PSI, so I will need a Profec E-01 controller to go past that.

I takes me about a full minute to cut through a weld el with an 11,000 RPM angle grinder with a carbon steel cut-off wheel.

I've gotta call BS on the under a minute with a hacksaw.

It takes me more than a minute to get through an 18ga piece of mild steel 3" tubing. :rolleyes:

The problem is the manifold is going to have a very complex shape for weld els.

The double wall design will function for strength and insulation.

I've got a pretty good handle on what I am doing. :p

your probably right I am talking BS :D
but after doing a full 4cly maniflod by hand I can't remember it being that hard. it was 32mm pipe which is probably smaller than what you tried.

your maniflod is looking good but the cost is looking scary compaired to the greddy kit available in japan which sould cost around $4000 us.
http://www.trust-power.com/06new/2600_2699/2647_turbokit.html

Scary? It is basically the same design, but mine has a bigger main flow and much uglier welds!:rolleyes:

The Greddy kit is about $1500 more than doing it myself.

well done you have saved a bit of money. the intercooler looks great too :)

0 Psi for comfirmation of no leaks then 3 PSI for testing and verification of drivability.
After everything shakes out, 7 PSI or so depending on fueling.

Once I am happy with the system as a whole, I will add two additional injectors to the intake runners just after where it joins the plastic to the aluminum (controlled by the E-Manage) and then run 9 or more, once again depending on tuning.

This all follows how I did it on my other cars and it seems to work.

I am mechanically limited by my wastegate actuator to 7 PSI, so I will need a Profec E-01 controller to go past that.

I am posting most of the new info as I go in this thread:
http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=48347Cool, thanks for the response. Great methodology.

If you don't mind, I'm going to merge this thread and the Turbo Santa thread together. I see no reason to have to update the same project in two places... do you?

Scary? It is basically the same design, but mine has a bigger main flow and much uglier welds!:rolleyes:

The Greddy kit is about $1500 more than doing it myself.

Not only is it cheaper…..but man you must be having a lot of FUN doing this :D

Question for you, Jeff: Have you tried blocking the EGR valve and/or their associated ports that are built into the factory exhaust manifold? If so, did you experience detonation or other adverse effects? In designing my header, it would be much easier if I didn't need to include the crossover porting on the header flange like the factory and the RE Amemiya and FEED headers have. Thanks.

Charles
There is no EGR valve. There is a valved air pump connection for the startup air pump, but it is only active for 30 seconds during a low coolant temperature start.

I have mine still attached, but I had to make some weird bends for the tube because it was in the way of my compressor. I may take it out and block the port, but the crossover tube is still intact.

Lookin' good, Jeff!

Few things -

Do you have the center section of the turbo clocked at 25 deg. to make an easier oil drain path? You do know that you can spin the center section independant of the turbine/compressor housings to get a more vertical drain. I've found that good oil feed and removal is ESSENTIAL to turbo life and keeping oil from backing up and making the car smoke. I can understand if you have to angle it to keep the drain from hitting the manifold or the like.

Might be worth investing in an oil temp gauge. An oil cooled turbo will add a lot more heat load to the oil cooling system - rotaries BIG TIME use oil as one of the primary means of cooling the motor. Might be worth looking into a water cooled center section down the road.

I believe Greddy has available the aluminum oil pan that goes with their RX-8 turbo kit separately, and it already has the oil return plumbed into the pan. It also has more capacity as well. But, that might move the budget up even further :).

Keep up the good work, and keep us posted!

Dale

If you are deleting the air pump, you can probably delete the pipe, but don't quote me on that because I don't know how those ports are hooked up inside the rotor housings.

I'd say just go ahead and add it. The other manufacturers are doing it and you would still have to fab a blanking plate to block off the ports anyway - just as well make the plate a tube and put the three ports on it.

Do you have the center section of the turbo clocked at 25 deg. to make an easier oil drain path? You do know that you can spin the center section independant of the turbine/compressor housings to get a more vertical drain. I've found that good oil feed and removal is ESSENTIAL to turbo life and keeping oil from backing up and making the car smoke. I can understand if you have to angle it to keep the drain from hitting the manifold or the like.
I have already clocked the center section to get the drain vertical. However, the entire turbo is canted upward to clear the manifold and you cant clock the center section on that axis! ;)


Might be worth investing in an oil temp gauge. An oil cooled turbo will add a lot more heat load to the oil cooling system - rotaries BIG TIME use oil as one of the primary means of cooling the motor. Might be worth looking into a water cooled center section down the road.
When time and money permit, I am going to get a whole different turbo. I want an even bigger A/R for the turbine and a water-cooled center section, perhaps with ball bearings.

I believe Greddy has available the aluminum oil pan that goes with their RX-8 turbo kit separately, and it already has the oil return plumbed into the pan. It also has more capacity as well. But, that might move the budget up even further .
Too late:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/pan_1.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/pan_2.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/pan_3.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/pan_4.jpg

All of the cold-side pipes:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/pipes_1.jpg

Someday I'll polish all of them! :p

Peek-a-boo:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/pab.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/final_2.jpg

nice jeff.

so you're welding two peices of pipe (one in the other) at once, or're you welding halves around the first ones...?

forget the polishing garbage. looks even better than the manifold! i really like all the little things (using as little hose for bends as possible, the enourmous spout into the sump :)).

the only thing left to do is get the night stills of you firing dual 3 foot flames :)

I welded a split pipe over the sealed main pipe.
Then I surrounded it with aluminum sheet.

There are, because of space, many spots where the insulating layer is not present or directly connected to the pipe underneath.

A RX8 friend an I were kicking this question around yesterday, what issues are you going to have with installing a turbo/super and the multistage intake system? Is that a problem? Can that system handle the forced air? or are you going to bypass all that and run straight into the throttle body?

? THE MULTISTAGE INTAKE STUFF- sdais- is in the intake manifold, which is after the throttle body.

VFAD is gone, but SDAIS operates normally. The valves are stiff and won't blow open.

I want to let the OEM ECU do as much work as it wants to.

Finished the installation yesterday and started it. Brought it up to temperature and all seems good. I have to button up the front today.

More pics:

Manifold -

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/mani_1.jpg


With shield -


http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/mani_2.jpg


The inside of the aluminum shield with header wrap -

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/shield_1.jpg


Final installation -

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/final_1.jpg

Great project, have been following since the beginning, what plans if any do you have to measure the HP results?

Looks too cool...Way to go!

I want to see dyno results! Oh, and nice fabrication btw. :)

greddy is making a hi-volume oil pan for the rx-8 that might be useful for a turbo conversion.

Very nice work Jeff. Way cleaner than any attempt I've seen thus far.

Thank you for sharing, have been following from the get-go. Set up looks great, can't wait for feedback once you have had some time to do some shakedowns....Thank you for sharing all your progress on the forum, it is much appreciated on my end.


Christian

hmm looks cleaner than i thought it would be.......very nicely done
cant wait for results

forgot to ask no gauges to watch the turbo???

Thanks for the kind words, everyone!:D

forgot to ask no gauges to watch the turbo??? No. I'm taping a pressure gauge to the windscreen for the shakedown, but I am awaiting the arrival of my Profec E-01 so that I can control the E-Manage and boost all at the same time. It has a wonderful "virtual" boost gauge and a bunch of other goodies and looks really cool. It will go nicely with the other piece piece of frivolous eye-candy I got - an HKS SSq BOV.

Hello world! -

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/hi.jpg

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/IC_1.jpg

Looking great Jeff are you going to protect the intercooler with a grill mesh setup , it looks vulnarable ?

Cheers
michael

I guess it isn't so visible in that pic, but I have mesh on all of the bumper openings.

Jeff

Congrats for being one of the most informative forum members to date on the Turbo project :cool:

Do you anticipate any Turbo lag and if so in what rpm range ?

When you increase the boost from 6psi to the 9psi when you add the extra injectors and the bigger Turbo that you mentioned in an earlier post how much HP do you hope to achieve .?

cheers
michael

Well, having driven the car around today (about 20 miles) I can say for sure that there is NO turbo lag with the unit I am using. :p
In fact, it is attempting to produce boost at part throttle - you can hear it zizzing away under the slightest accelleration.
Just for grins, I got into it once or twice at 2500 RPM and there was already 3 PSI (which is where I have the wastegate set). I won't be able to do more boost until my Profec gets here on Friday. I'll be in Miami until then anyway...

I think that I will ultimately need a bigger A/R on the turbine side to keep the thing from stressing itself to death.

BTW - grilles:


http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/grille_1.JPG

Yellow box in the upper-middle background is .45 ACP. :p

Awesome job Jeff! I can't wait to see it in action at the next MSCW meet.

Yellow box in the upper-middle background is .45 ACP. :p

What is an ACP, and is .45 bigger/smaller what? :confused:

.45 auto. Like in Colt.

Thats funny I did a Google search and found the .45 ACP rounds, but I thought it was just a similar name, so I added +turbo, and stuff. I finally gave up and posted the question LOL :p

Did you feel any extra power at 3 PSI?

Is the .45 your way of saying "don't even think about stealing this..."

I think the .45 is for if he blows his engine. Only 1 bullet in it :p

Maybe the .45 is the way he is "forcing" induction.
tee hee


Great work man, looks top notch. Can't wait to see it at the feb MCSW meet!

holy "KAKOS" Jeff...this is really awesome...i'm really impressed...finally someone with the balls to start a project and finish it with no BS...you have my Kudos...the chocolate chip ones...i only like the peanut butter!...:D

Awesome, Jeff! Glad you got it in one piece and running!

I REALLY like the work on the manifold heat shield. I've half-ass made manifold heat shields before, and I really like that technique - that's going into my bag 'o tricks :).

I would seriously look at getting a regular boost gauge. The E-01's screen is, to put it plainly, lousy. If you don't already have the boost sensor for the E-manage, you can buy the Greddy 60mm peak/hold boost gauge and share the sensor - it's the same sensor. Anyhow, I had the E-01 on my old 10th Anniversary and was really disappointed with the screen. The rest of the unit is mighty kickass, though. Lighting really sucks on it - if you ever used an old Palm Pilot with the greenish glow backlight, it's IDENTICAL.

If you're sticking to the budget, you can get a 60mm Greddy mechanical boost gauge for just under $100.

Good thing is the E-manage was originally designed to add fuel control to a non-turbo car when going turbo, so it will work very well for your application. It will take some careful tuning, that's for sure!

Dale

Wow, I am very impressed. We'll definately have to get together once I put my Greddy Turbo in! Road Trip! yeah baby ;)

Jeff: I printed out the exhaust manifold template. The exhaust ports on that template are HUGE. They aren't that big coming out of the engine. Maybe the manifold or the gasket are that large but not the engine. You wouldn't happen to know the actual sizes out of the block would you?

I'll check against the old gasket to see if there is a "dirty" area that etrays the true port size, but IIRC they were actually that size as they exited the motor. The individual runners very quickly get constricted in the OEM manifold - down to half the size of the actual ports. That tracing, however, does show the actual mating port size.

I'm in Miami at the moment, so I will try to get better info on Sunday.

Couple of quick questions:
1) Does it free rev to red line or does it cut out at a lower rev level.
2) Does your engine light stay on
3) Any side effects from the install yet?

I have had a couple o issues with a product I am looking at and am curious if you have had any hassles.

Thanks,

Gibbo.

I'll check against the old gasket to see if there is a "dirty" area that etrays the true port size, but IIRC they were actually that size as they exited the motor. The individual runners very quickly get constricted in the OEM manifold - down to half the size of the actual ports. That tracing, however, does show the actual mating port size.

I'm in Miami at the moment, so I will try to get better info on Sunday.
I've been comparing the template you made with pictures of the engine. I am all but convinced that the size on the template is the size of the runners WITHOUT the sleeves installed. It all seems to match up perfectly that way.

Couple of quick questions:
1) Does it free rev to red line or does it cut out at a lower rev level.
2) Does your engine light stay on
3) Any side effects from the install yet?

I have had a couple o issues with a product I am looking at and am curious if you have had any hassles.

Thanks,

Gibbo.
Well, I haven't had time to do any serious road tests, yet. However, it revs with no problem and have no CEL or pending codes.

The only side-effect of the install is anxiety because I had to run out of town almsot the instant I finished and haven't had the chance to drive it yet!:rolleyes:

I've been comparing the template you made with pictures of the engine. I am all but convinced that the size on the template is the size of the runners WITHOUT the sleeves installed. It all seems to match up perfectly that way.
I'm sure you are right. I didn't concern myself with the details of the ports themselves because I decided to allow Mazda's decision to size the ports on the manifold as they did to be my guide.

BRAVO! I applaud your efforts.

I wonder if Nikki (Is that her name? it's what I remember it being...) is enjoying the boosted car? :D I bet she sneaks it out when you are gone, Jeff.


:D

forgive me if its a dumb Q as I know nothing about Turbos but did you put blow off valves?

You only THINK it hasn't seen full boost!
jds

I wonder if Nikki (Is that her name? it's what I remember it being...) is enjoying the boosted car? :D I bet she sneaks it out when you are gone, Jeff.


:D

forgive me if its a dumb Q as I know nothing about Turbos but did you put blow off valves?

He's only using 'one' blow-off valve. ;) It's pictured there...just right of center of the pic

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/final_1.jpg

Well, I finally got to drive the thing hard today.
I spent about three hours playing with the injector duty cycles for the secondary and primary 2 fuel injectors and logging the MAF output under boost and other goodies.
The ECU never gets above 40% duty cycle for the secondaries, so that means I am limited to 80% of maximum since the E-Manage can only add up to 100% of the original pulse duration. That means I will be leaving some power on the table and holding the boost to 6 or 6.5 PSI max on the stock FI system.

However, 3.5 PSI will blow your mind. :eek:
At 3.5 PSI, it is an entirely different car.

There really isn't a better way for me to describe it - the car is just really snappy and packs much more punch down low. Lots 'O fun.:p

Man Jeff you really are a MANIAC. The install looks damn nice and everything is sounding sooooooo good. I applaud your efforts and completion of your project. Thanks a million for all of the info and experience you are posting up for us.

Jeff, if you have other aftermarket stuff on the car in addition to the turbo you may be seeing a 45-50 h.p. boost under 3.5 lbs. That is pretty exciting feeling, especially when you hit 6k. Do you now have trouble keeping traction in first and second gears? What is your rpm/boost curve? With nitrous I feel the difference as low as 4K but at 6K the rear end wants to sometimes break loose. I can't wait to get the 75 h.p. jets in the nozzle.

Charles

I believe Jeff mentioned in an earlier post that he is at full boost by 3500rpm

AWESOME. That is what I wanted to hear.

Yeah, I see all 5.5 PSI by 3500 RPM. The only other aftermarket "speed" item I have is the BB midpipe (still no CEL - my OEM ECU appears to be very forgiving).

I haven't really pounded the thing yet - I just do some smooth run-ups in various gears and watch the A/F. I won't be able to really nail it until I am satisfied that the E-Manage is properly dialed in.

:D

What are the chances of the two of us doing a side-by-side comparison of our systems(turbo vs. nitrous) and then writing an article about it, Jeff?

Charles

I'm starting the install of my kit today.. hehe.. I'm always up for a road trip ;)

I queried you on the idea of helping with your install. Did you see it? Either way, I would be happy to meet up and check out each other's stuff. I would like to combine turbo and nitrous soon, anyway.

Charles

Yes, I did see the offer of help. But you are in Detroit and I am a bit anxious to get it completed as you could imagine. I'll let everyone know once I am finished with the install. Meeting up with my mechanic at 1030 EST to start :)

wow, can't wait to see the numbers etc. when you get it all dialed, remarkable job, it almost looks like you could even run the engine cover if you wanted.

What are the chances of the two of us doing a side-by-side comparison of our systems(turbo vs. nitrous) and then writing an article about it, Jeff?

Charles
A write-up would be fine, though I think you are a bit too far away for a side-by-side.

I'm starting the install of my kit today.. hehe.. I'm always up for a road trip
Now that is a road trip I can handle. :D What is the possibility of me dropping by tomorrow (Tuesday) during the install?
I'd really love to see the parts and jack your E-Manage programming while I'm at it!

wow, can't wait to see the numbers etc. when you get it all dialed, remarkable job, it almost looks like you could even run the engine cover if you wanted.
I do run the engine cover. I just took it off for the pics. In fact, I am fabricating an enclosure for the air filter - I want the whole thing to look practically stock.
Numbers will be forthcoming.

Awesome news- nice work Jeff...

Awesome setup. I hope everything turns out great for you

There is a picture that Philodox took from his turbo install. It confirms my belief about the manifold opening/gasket port size vs the actual engine exhaust runners size. The engine runners are WAY smaller. Now I need to figure out what the actual size is so I can build the prototype header. Damn it Mazda!!!

There is a picture that Philodox took from his turbo install. It confirms my belief about the manifold opening/gasket port size vs the actual engine exhaust runners size. The engine runners are WAY smaller. Now I need to figure out what the actual size is so I can build the prototype header. Damn it Mazda!!!

All you had to do was ask and I could have measured the exhaust ports for you ;)

Damn it!!! I'm going to get brillo's car up on the lift within the next couple of weeks to start mocking up my header idea anyways.

I guess shipping RG him your old manifold won't help any will it?

I guess shipping RG him your old manifold won't help any will it?

I would, but my mechanic already called dibbs on it.. he's going to use it when he starts building a custom turbo for the RX-8 for his car.

I do run the engine cover. I just took it off for the pics. In fact, I am fabricating an enclosure for the air filter - I want the whole thing to look practically stock.
Numbers will be forthcoming.

Dang dude, you're the frickin' man! Wish I'd known someone like you in my mini-truckin' days, we could have probably built the first 8 second door dragger :D

After looking at Jon's Greddy system, I wired my injectors differently and now I have the tuning under better (finer) control.

I am really at a loss for words to describe how the car feels now. I guess mind-blowing is apropos.

Though I am only running about 5.5 to 6 PSI, I don't think I will have much use for any more in the near future - the car is already too fast to control properly.
On my way to see Jon, I came off the NJ Turnpike in fourth gear and got into it a bit too enthusiastically and got sideways. In fourth. :eek:
The road was a bit damp, but I think that is a pretty good indicator of the kind of power that I have on-tap.

I think i speak for us all here when I say... daaaaamn. :eek:

This does kind of make one wonder about all of the "tuners" with (one would think) significantly more experience and resources who have yet to show this kind of progress.

One question...does the stock DSC/Traction Control stuff still work effectively with the extra power and the different power delivery? I'm just wondering how good it would work to prevent the kind of wheelspin you described...of course if it was still on during your drive, I have my answer!

You know, you could probably sell a few of these if you make it into a kit...


jds

After looking at Jon's Greddy system, I wired my injectors differently and now I have the tuning under better (finer) control.

I am really at a loss for words to describe how the car feels now. I guess mind-blowing is apropos.

Though I am only running about 5.5 to 6 PSI, I don't think I will have much use for any more in the near future - the car is already too fast to control properly.
On my way to see Jon, I came off the NJ Turnpike in fourth gear and got into it a bit too enthusiastically and got sideways. In fourth. :eek:
The road was a bit damp, but I think that is a pretty good indicator of the kind of power that I have on-tap.

Would you get a dyno for us. I'm not questioning your results but I think it would be good to see exactly how much power you've got and where to see how well the Renesis adopts quantitatively. I can understand if that would violate your budget.

After looking at Jon's Greddy system, I wired my injectors differently and now I have the tuning under better (finer) control.

I am really at a loss for words to describe how the car feels now. I guess mind-blowing is apropos.

Though I am only running about 5.5 to 6 PSI, I don't think I will have much use for any more in the near future - the car is already too fast to control properly.
On my way to see Jon, I came off the NJ Turnpike in fourth gear and got into it a bit too enthusiastically and got sideways. In fourth. :eek:
The road was a bit damp, but I think that is a pretty good indicator of the kind of power that I have on-tap.


Would you draw a comparison for me, of your rx8 to your MX3, in terms of how the power feels? I'm pretty well versed on boosted KL's...

After looking at Jon's Greddy system, I wired my injectors differently and now I have the tuning under better (finer) control.

I am really at a loss for words to describe how the car feels now. I guess mind-blowing is apropos.

Though I am only running about 5.5 to 6 PSI, I don't think I will have much use for any more in the near future - the car is already too fast to control properly.
On my way to see Jon, I came off the NJ Turnpike in fourth gear and got into it a bit too enthusiastically and got sideways. In fourth. :eek:
The road was a bit damp, but I think that is a pretty good indicator of the kind of power that I have on-tap.

As an independent 3rd party and turbo owner/maker, would you recommend the GReddy turbo kit? Now that you've seen Jon's and can compare it to yours would you buy it if you weren't able to make your own?

Just curious (and an anal information researcher when it comes to making large purchases). I thought it looked fairly standard and of good quality. I just need as much ammo as I can get when trying to sway the wife that she "needs" this for her car ;)

This does kind of make one wonder about all of the "tuners" with (one would think) significantly more experience and resources who have yet to show this kind of progress.
I wonder the same thing. :rolleyes: Of course, I already had months of development for the E-Manage programming under my belt as well as more than a few turbo build-ups. I just copied myself (and Greddy to some extent).http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/smiles/icon_shrug.gif

One question...does the stock DSC/Traction Control stuff still work effectively with the extra power and the different power delivery? I'm just wondering how good it would work to prevent the kind of wheelspin you described...of course if it was still on during your drive, I have my answer!
Uh, it "works", but it had a hard time keeping up.http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/smiles/icon_spin.gif

You know, you could probably sell a few of these if you make it into a kit...
But it would be difficult to make a profit. By the time I was done, I had bumped into my budget, which would only leave $200 - $300 profit. Hardly worth the effort.

Would you get a dyno for us. I'm not questioning your results but I think it would be good to see exactly how much power you've got and where to see how well the Renesis adopts quantitatively. I can understand if that would violate your budget.
My budget doesn't include use and abuse! I will attempt to dyno the car, but I don't have any real "before" numbers.
I will also post new G-Tech numbers which you can compare to my old G-Tech numbers.

Would you draw a comparison for me, of your rx8 to your MX3, in terms of how the power feels? I'm pretty well versed on boosted KL's...
Well, I haven't driven my MX-3 since I sold it more than a year ago, so my memory has faded a bit.
The MX-3 had monsterous torque steer and no limited-slip differential, so launches were nearly out of control. Through the first 2 gears, crashing always seemed like a real possibility. From 3rd on up it was much better.
The redline was only 75% of what the RX can do and the gears were very tall since they were meaant for a 1.6L V6. That car was a lot of sturm und drang.http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/smiles/icon_mecker.gif
By comparison, my Miata went through the 1/4 mile just as fast but was a lot more stable. 13.7 sec @ 109 MPH.

The RX-8 now feels exatcly as it did stock, only 50% faster. In fact, it will really open your eyes when you realize that this is probably how the car should have been from the beginning. The engine management is perfectly happy with the boost as is the suspension and everything else.

As an independent 3rd party and turbo owner/maker, would you recommend the GReddy turbo kit? Now that you've seen Jon's and can compare it to yours would you buy it if you weren't able to make your own?

Just curious (and an anal information researcher when it comes to making large purchases). I thought it looked fairly standard and of good quality. I just need as much ammo as I can get when trying to sway the wife that she "needs" this for her car
I would ablsolutely recommend the Greddy system. It is cheap, simple, completely bolt-on and easily upgradeable.
Honestly, even if you can make your own I'd have you consider the Greddy kit first.
Its short comings are acceptable, I think, for the majority of drivers who would not be looking to really push the envelope.
A kit like the Greddy (and mine for that matter) brings the RX-8 up to the level of performance for which the chassis was designed.

6 PSI makes the RX-8 the perfect car.:cool:

very cool jeff! My car is finally getting a motor. I should get it back by the end of next week and then the greddy kit which should be here thursday or friday. Keep you guys posted on how the motor job goes.(in another thread of course:) .

...The engine management is perfectly happy with the boost...

That's exactly what I wanted to know. Unfortunately for us S2Kers, there always seems to be some sort of glitch...idle, etc. (unless you get the $1200 AEM EMS + tuning) and it ends up being $6-8k depending on what turbo kit/tuning you get. And I think that's why everyone goes with the S/C (for $4-5k :( ) and you can tune it a VAFC or EManage for a few more HP.

I'm just glad to see GReddy made a quality kit for the RX-8 at a reasonable price. A new RX-8 turbo kit is less than I can get a used S/C for my S2K...go figure :rolleyes: I wish FI was this cheap for my S2K :( Just glad I have both and hopefully I can convince my wife ;)

My budget doesn't include use and abuse! I will attempt to dyno the car, but I don't have any real "before" numbers.
I will also post new G-Tech numbers which you can compare to my old G-Tech numbers.


Well since so many people have dynoed already in stock form, it doesn't really seem necessary and if you are getting about what GReddy is claiming with theirs you should probably be around 230-240WHP.



A kit like the Greddy (and mine for that matter) brings the RX-8 up to the level of performance for which the chassis was designed.


Boy, you said it! I sooooooooo want one of these!

Great project and great thread, thanks for sharing with us.

Nice :)

...Jeff (Jeff here), impressive work!

Congrates and may all things go well.

-jcs-

For philodox or MazdaManiac... does turbo lag exist for either of your installs? Or does it spool up enough by the time any useful revs are obtained that it is a non-issue?

Well since so many people have dynoed already in stock form, it doesn't really seem necessary and if you are getting about what GReddy is claiming with theirs you should probably be around 230-240WHP.




Boy, you said it! I sooooooooo want one of these!

Great project and great thread, thanks for sharing with us.

Since we are speculating :)
If we assume that the car has 238hps then we have 25% loss when dynoing at 180hps. So, the greddy kit bumps us up to roughly 300 at crank which should dyno 225hps if these numbers hold up.

25% loss is outrageous. Either we have less hps, or we cant dyno the car perfectly. (but thats another discussion).

I'm really curious about the power increase and torque changes across the rpm band after this turbo installation. We should sponsor him with some cash to do some dyno runs if that is needed.

Anyhow, I'm exited as hell. How is it that somebody can fix the engine management and build a turbokit from "nothing" and with limitied resources in should a short period of time, when the other major companies fail?.

Impressive.

Remember all the discussions that the 8 wouldnt respond well to turbo?

25% loss is outrageous. Either we have less hps, or we cant dyno the car perfectly. (but thats another discussion).



I vote Mazda over-estimated the 238hp figure...since we are FURTHER speculating... ;) The 8 has a drivetrain similar to the Miata in function; Miata's show, within 1%, 26hp in drivetrain loss.

not 26%...26hp. (actually, in the case of my 1.6L, that IS about 25% :( lol).

Anywho - :D

I'm really curious about the power increase and torque changes across the rpm band after this turbo installation. We should sponsor him with some cash to do some dyno runs if that is needed.
Instead of cash, why doesn't someone in my area (DC, VA, MD, southern PA or NJ and DE) find me a dyno where I can spend some time without pressure?
My local shop is fine (about $100/hour), but they are a bit inattentive.

Anyhow, I'm exited as hell. How is it that somebody can fix the engine management and build a turbokit from "nothing" and with limitied resources in should a short period of time, when the other major companies fail?.

Impressive.


Yeah, I kinda wonder about that myself.:p

Jeff - are you still in contact w/ any probe people? I'm sure somebody from NEPO could direct you...I'll ask my pals back there, too

How is it that somebody can fix the engine management and build a turbokit from "nothing" and with limited resources in should a short period of time, when the other major companies fail?


Maybe not fail exactly, but since the car has been out for 18 mos. or so in the U.S. and an experienced DIYer like Jeff can do it on his own in a reasonably short period of time, this does seem to be the question of the day.

Jeff - are you still in contact w/ any probe people? I'm sure somebody from NEPO could direct you...I'll ask my pals back there, too
No. I haven't been on ProbeTalk for a long time.

No. I haven't been on ProbeTalk for a long time.

I'll toss the idea around a couple ppl I know back there...and reply if they give me any good leads.

:cool:

OK. Well, Ive shared my success, now I give you a little bit of failure. (No, nothing broken except my ego.)

I have been blasting around with my CanScan running, watching my A/Fs and I was really starting to wonder why it took so much extra duty cycle to get the A/F to drop.
At one point, I was (according to the Profec) at 100% duty cycle and I was still seeing 14:1 under boost. Not good.
To make matters worse, this would only happen once in a while. At other times my A/F was in the 12.5:1 range like it should.http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/smiles/banghead.gif

Then I read the E-Manage manual again. And again.
Then the little light comes on.

The injector lines have their own ground.

I had always assumed that the injector ground was tied to the main ground internally. Oops.http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/smiles/owned.gif

Now I'm rich as a bitch and I have to go back and start over with the maps.

Don't complain. Better too rich than too lean.

Don't complain. Better too rich than too lean.

yeah.. the extra fuel will help cool everything off.. don't go too lean or you'll detonate.

What really suprised me was how even at 14:1 or 15:1 at 3 PSI there was no detonation at all.

What really suprised me was how even at 14:1 or 15:1 at 3 PSI there was no detonation at all.

are you sure you were getting correct AFR readings? I would think anything over 12.5 would surely detonate with a FI setup.

are you sure you were getting correct AFR readings? I would think anything over 12.5 would surely detonate with a FI setup.
I'm reading it right off the ECU via CAN. This is the WBO2S built into the RX-8 FI system.

I guess I can mount my LM-1 just to be sure, but it was accurate before so I have no reason to believe that it has changed somehow.

I'm reading it right off the ECU via CAN. This is the WBO2S built into the RX-8 FI system.

I guess I can mount my LM-1 just to be sure, but it was accurate before so I have no reason to believe that it has changed somehow.

It may be the low boost you're running that is helping it not to detonate. just be carefull.. I don't want either of us being the first to blow a RENESIS that's turbo'd.

Jeff, great thread. Im green with envy on your turbo as well.

We've seen a video of Jon's (philodox) turbo...did you/or can you make a video clip?

I would love to hear yours for comparison.

Good work Jeff, and a nice read as well!

Cheers,
Hymee.

Jeff- the word on the street is http://www.eiptuning.com/ or there is a place in pa thats good, like 20 minutes north of the md/pa line, http://www.xoticmotorsports.com/

Hope either of those help.

Been to both. Much suckage.
I'll stick with Altered Atmospheres if those are my choices.
Jon is looking into booking dyno time up in Jersey in a few weeks. I'll go where he goes.

To address the E-Manage injector wiring scheme:

They wire the two primary injectors to channels 1 and 2, the secondaries to channels 3 and 4. The second primaries are attached to channels 5 and 6 as well as the sub channels A and B.

This is weird to me and I'm sure they have something going on in the maps to utilize this.

I have the secondaries wired to 1/2 and 3/4 (two channels each) and the second primaries to sub channels A and B. This gives me the ability to bump the secondaries and second primaries on seperate maps and leaves the first primaries alone since they are only useful for idle and cruise where the OEM PCM needs no help.

Very impressive work! Thank you for taking the time to document and share the data as you go. Also, the cool factor is off the scale.

Question: Where did you get the Kick @$$ Turbo set up?
Answer: I built it.

Very cool indeed.

Wouldn't this problem also have affected E-Manage operation when you were using it without the turbo?

jds

To address the E-Manage injector wiring scheme:

They wire the two primary injectors to channels 1 and 2, the secondaries to channels 3 and 4. The second primaries are attached to channels 5 and 6 as well as the sub channels A and B.

This is weird to me and I'm sure they have something going on in the maps to utilize this.

I have the secondaries wired to 1/2 and 3/4 (two channels each) and the second primaries to sub channels A and B. This gives me the ability to bump the secondaries and second primaries on seperate maps and leaves the first primaries alone since they are only useful for idle and cruise where the OEM PCM needs no help.

Wouldn't this problem also have affected E-Manage operation when you were using it without the turbo?

jds
No, because I wasn't trying to add fuel so I didn't have the injectors wired.

Just a quick rave about the Profec E-01:

This thing rocks! http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/smiles/headbang.gif

I have my LM-1 wired into it directly and now I can simultaneously read and log everything the E-Manage is doing and the A/F ratios. Now I don't need to keep my CanScan running to read the A/F.
It also makes a great boost gauge.

I usually have a window up with boost, A/F and injector duty cycle running, but I can pull up and map from the E-Manage on the fly and make changes based on my LM-1 lambda readings.

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/turbo/profec_2.jpg

what do you mean by "on the fly"? you dont actually change things while driving, do you? that'd be like trying to read a book and drive... :confused:

To address the E-Manage injector wiring scheme:

They wire the two primary injectors to channels 1 and 2, the secondaries to channels 3 and 4. The second primaries are attached to channels 5 and 6 as well as the sub channels A and B.

This is weird to me and I'm sure they have something going on in the maps to utilize this.

I have the secondaries wired to 1/2 and 3/4 (two channels each) and the second primaries to sub channels A and B. This gives me the ability to bump the secondaries and second primaries on seperate maps and leaves the first primaries alone since they are only useful for idle and cruise where the OEM PCM needs no help.

Mazda Maniac
Do you know how Canzoomer wires up the greddy board in his unit?

Mazda Maniac
Do you know how Canzoomer wires up the greddy board in his unit?
He doesn't wire the injectors at all. You would have to do this yourself.

what do you mean by "on the fly"? you dont actually change things while driving, do you? that'd be like trying to read a book and drive... :confused:
Uh, maybe I do, maybe I don't.:o

No, usually I pull over, look at the playback (I can watch what just happened with every single parameter over the last 3 hours if I like) and then dial in an adjustment.

ok thats what i hoped:D cool! you got a better pic of the the Profec screen?

nevermind

http://store1.yimg.com/I/yhst-1164098593086_1821_5776314

The protec is ~$600!?! yikes. Anyone seen it cheaper somewhere?

The protec is ~$600!?! yikes. Anyone seen it cheaper somewhere? $600? Its only $495.

www.mohdparts.com/emanage

Considering it is a boost controller AND a replacement for my laptop while tuning, it is a pretty good deal.

oh hey jeff thanks for the offer to pick me up in Baltimore but unfortunately the wife said nix to the whole idea last night:( i guess ill have to wait until soemone out here gets one installed. looking forward to your reports (and philo's):)

Jeff,

How hard was it to install the profec? I'm debating on getting one and if you don't mind, I could drive down to your place and maybe you could help me put it in?

Jeff,

How hard was it to install the profec? I'm debating on getting one and if you don't mind, I could drive down to your place and maybe you could help me put it in?
Installing it was a cinch. It will be even easier on your car since the E-Manage is behind your glovebox instead of in the engine compartment like mine.

You will have to get that password for the E-Manage first to make use of its best functions.

Let me know when you want to wire it up. If you can't make it down, we could work it out when we hit the dyno in a few weeks.

OK. Dyno session is set.
Go to this thread for info:

http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=50065

Damn you guys are amazing!! Congrats...

Not to spoil the mood, or take any respect away from the hard work you've accomplished, but I have a few newbie skeptic questions...

If it was this easy for you to slap a turbo on, why didnt Mazda?

How safe is slapping a turbo on a car anyway? It seems you'd slap a turbo on any engine if you could! :)

Aren't there other factors to take into account other than just adding a turbo? How much of any increase in performance an FI device can provide would the Renesis handle? Fearing seal breakdown, blah blah, etc...

Yes, I'm jealous! But also skeptical. Judging by your sig, you are definitely the TURBO KING, and I bow to thee.

Damn you guys are amazing!! Congrats...

Not to spoil the mood, or take any respect away from the hard work you've accomplished, but I have a few newbie skeptic questions...

If it was this easy for you to slap a turbo on, why didnt Mazda?

How safe is slapping a turbo on a car anyway? It seems you'd slap a turbo on any engine if you could! :)

Aren't there other factors to take into account other than just adding a turbo? How much of any increase in performance an FI device can provide would the Renesis handle? Fearing seal breakdown, blah blah, etc...

Yes, I'm jealous! But also skeptical. Judging by your sig, you are definitely the TURBO KING, and I bow to thee.

Mazda has to satisfy many gods, not just he power ones. Cost, Emissions, reliability, fuel mileage, all could be effected with a turbo. For sure, none of these kits are emissions compliant, which for automakers is prolly second only to cost in terms of priority.

Damn you guys are amazing!! Congrats...
Thanks.

Not to spoil the mood, or take any respect away from the hard work you've accomplished, but I have a few newbie skeptic questions...

If it was this easy for you to slap a turbo on, why didnt Mazda?
A broad spectrum of reasons, almost all of which are ultimately financial.
Additional cost would either erode the profit margin or raise the price of the car out of its class.
Additional stress would bring more vehicles down inside the warranty.
Additional parts would bring in more warranty repairs.
Additional maintenance requirements would have led to user failures that aren't under warranty, provoking a shit-storm from pissed off owners who don't know they need to change their oil. Ever.
Insurance costs would rise as would fuel consumption.
A plethora of other considerations that I can't think of at the moment.

How safe is slapping a turbo on a car anyway? It seems you'd slap a turbo on any engine if you could!
Yes, I would. And have. If it catalyzes hydrocarbons, I'll turbo it. I'm planning on putting a turbo on a go cart this summer for one of the neighborhood kids.

Aren't there other factors to take into account other than just adding a turbo? How much of any increase in performance an FI device can provide would the Renesis handle? Fearing seal breakdown, blah blah, etc...
Yes. But one calculates the factors as a function of the normal operation of the motor. A properly designed turbo system simply makes a motor do what it already does but faster. This includes wear.
The trick is to make the accelerated wear the small side of the ratio.

Yes, I'm jealous! But also skeptical. Judging by your sig, you are definitely the TURBO KING, and I bow to thee.
More of a turbo jester, but thanks.

Thanks for the info!!
These may seem to be odd noob questions but please bear with me, I'm curious..

How much miles of life do you think this turbo has cut off your engine? Is this even possible to estimate?

Are turbos even practical for those who dont understand A/F ratios, boost pressures, etc etc.. it seems like its a lot of knowledge required for the average RX-8 owner wanting to go FI.

Thanks Turbo Jester! :)

I know you guys are nutty about video, so here is one:

http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/rx8/video/rx8boost.mpg

Note the car trying to get sideways in third on dry pavement. The van I passed was doing about 45 MPH.

This is not even full throttle or redline. I am still leary of whether or not I have the A/Fs nailed, especially at the highest loads and RPMs.

Sweet!! What is that chirping sound and the red light flashing on the dash?

Sweet!! What is that chirping sound and the red light flashing on the dash?
The "red" light is really yellow, but the camera is not really good for video (its a still camera with an MPEG setting). That is the traction control kicking in.

The "chirping" sound is the BOV.

do you have pictures of your car (turbo, inside etc)? hehe and maybe some of the pom too?

do you have pictures of your car (turbo, inside etc)? hehe and maybe some of the pom too?

Uhhm - yes. Read the thread :)

Cheers,
Hymee.

PS - Needs blower whine ;) Call me jealous, but I just can't wait to get ours on the road.

Uhhm - yes. Read the thread :)

Cheers,
Hymee.

PS - Needs blower whine ;) Call me jealous, but I just can't wait to get ours on the road.

mmm blower whine.... like a ufo... drool, will it have that chirping sound too :p

I like blower wine. I can't say that about blow off valves. Anyway, since I strayed slightly from topic, I'll attempt to get her back on course...

Jeff,

How many injectors did you say you are you now running, in total?

Cheers,
Hymee.

Sounds really good Jeff.. A lot better than the lens clap hitting the tripodin mine :)

PS - Needs blower whine Call me jealous, but I just can't wait to get ours on the road.
I've had enough of "blower whine". I had a centrifugal SC on my MX-3 for a couple of years before I went turbo on that car. It was cool until you had to listen to it for hours at a time. :rolleyes:

How many injectors did you say you are you now running, in total?

Still just the stock six. As it turns out, there is a lot more fuel available than I was counting on. I'm still trying to get total control of the fuel delivery at the top of the RPM scale where my maps are still producing an 11:1 A/F, even with 9 PSI.


Sounds really good Jeff.. A lot better than the lens clap hitting the tripodin mine
I tore the entire strap off of the camera because I couldn't figure out a way to effectively tie it out of the way. :D

I've had enough of "blower whine". I had a centrifugal SC on my MX-3 for a couple of years before I went turbo on that car.

Hehehe. You still have a centifugal compressor! You just changed how you spin it. Believe me, I reckon a turbo is better than a centrifugal S/C. I'm not against turbo's per se. And Phil has plenty of experience with them. Have a look at this for a turbo and a wastegate for a rotary...

http://www.hymee.com/philsskills/Dscn6696.jpg

http://www.hymee.com/philsskills/Dscn6743.jpg

Still just the stock six. As it turns out, there is a lot more fuel available than I was counting on. I'm still trying to get total control of the fuel delivery at the top of the RPM scale where my maps are still producing an 11:1 A/F, even with 9 PSI.


Sorry, I got the impression (wrongly) from an early post of yours that you were going to more injectors. Perhaps that was the plan for when you ramp up to the higher boost levels. The data we logged with the Motec on the Renesis showed there is plenty of duty cycle still up our sleeves. http://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nyuknyuk.gifhttp://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nyuknyuk.gifhttp://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nyuknyuk.gif

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hehehe. You still have a centifugal compressor! You just changed how you spin it. Believe me, I reckon a turbo is better than a centrifugal S/C. I'm not against turbo's per se. And Phil has plenty of experience with them. Have a look at this for a turbo and a wastegate for a rotary...

http://www.hymee.com/philsskills/Dscn6696.jpg

http://www.hymee.com/philsskills/Dscn6743.jpg



Sorry, I got the impression (wrongly) from an early post of yours that you were going to more injectors. Perhaps that was the plan for when you ramp up to the higher boost levels. The data we logged with the Motec on the Renesis showed there is plenty of duty cycle still up our sleeves. http://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nyuknyuk.gifhttp://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nyuknyuk.gifhttp://www.hymee.com/smilies/sm_nyuknyuk.gif

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hymee, the e-manage can control up to two additional injectors. I think that's what Jeff was getting at. So if we want to expand, we have the option :)

Hymee, the e-manage can control up to two additional injectors. I think that's what Jeff was getting at. So if we want to expand, we have the option :)

Yeah - cool. I extrapolated beyond control.

Cheers,
Hymee.

Hymee, How much fuel do you think there is from the stock injectors?
My bet is you have already figured out how much and ploted it onto your airflow map. Yousneekybastardyou.

Hymee, How much fuel do you think there is from the stock injectors?
My bet is you have already figured out how much and ploted it onto your airflow map. Yousneekybastardyou.

Richard Paul

Aussies are known for keeping an ACE up their sleeves ;)

cheers
michael

So is anyong dynoing today at Altered Atmosphere? If so, when, and can I come by?

So is anyong dynoing today at Altered Atmosphere? If so, when, and can I come by?
Yes. We start at 11:00am. Probably be there at least two hours.

Cool! Can't wait to see the results.

Ok, so what ARE the results??? Inquiring minds wanta know! :D

I think Jeff posted his results in the "Turbo Dyno Day" thread in the NE forum. For my results just check the 1st post of the Greddy Installed thread.

Yeah, I saw yours, thanks... :D ... I wasn just kinda thinking Jeff would have posted it here.

Ok, so I found the thread again here (http://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=50065). Looks like Jeff got 225 WHP but needs some more tuning, while Jon got 240 WHP. Says a lot for what a good job Greddy did with this kit. :)

Yes, I'm jealous! But also skeptical. Judging by your sig, you are definitely the TURBO KING, and I bow to thee.

If having three forced induction cars, especially ones where you did the work yourself makes you a turbo king, I must be a turbo ruler of the universe lol. Congrats Mazdamaniac hope you are happy with the results so far.

If having three forced induction cars, especially ones where you did the work yourself makes you a turbo king, I must be a turbo ruler of the universe lol. Congrats Mazdamaniac hope you are happy with the results so far.
Well, three at one time. I've turbo'ed every car I've owned for the last two decades.
This will be the 9th or 10th car (IIRC) for which I have built a custom system, not all of which were my own cars.
Going to build a turbo go-cart in the spring...

If having three forced induction cars, especially ones where you did the work yourself makes you a turbo king, I must be a turbo ruler of the universe lol. Congrats Mazdamaniac hope you are happy with the results so far.

Why Ice, what ya got? I can grant you the title if you show me worthiness. :p

Why Ice, what ya got? I can grant you the title if you show me worthiness. :p
I heard he pimps in style on a very nice Dodge Caravan (or similar)....

Installing it was a cinch. It will be even easier on your car since the E-Manage is behind your glovebox instead of in the engine compartment like mine.

You will have to get that password for the E-Manage first to make use of its best functions.

Let me know when you want to wire it up. If you can't make it down, we could work it out when we hit the dyno in a few weeks.
hey , i may be comming in late this time but i didnt see any pic of the wiring on jeffs or johns cars(i cant keep you guys straight anymore) is emanage and the greddy kit purely plug in or do you have to splice a million things? also how difficult was it to rewire like this for you maniac?

hey , i may be comming in late this time but i didnt see any pic of the wiring on jeffs or johns cars(i cant keep you guys straight anymore) is emanage and the greddy kit purely plug in or do you have to splice a million things? also how difficult was it to rewire like this for you maniac?

The Greddy Kit is 100% plug and play engine management. No wiring of any sort. The custom wiring harness Greddy made is a peice of art.

-Jon

I heard he pimps in style on a very nice Dodge Caravan (or similar)....

well i dont know if "nice" is the correct word..... but it did get us around to the resturant pretty well and its got a Turbo....... :p ;) :D

In stock right now: 1989 Dodge Caravan turbo, 1999 Mazda Miata getting a supercharger in a month or two. Previous cars: 2000 Mazda Miata with GT28/35 turbo, 1988 RX-7 SE with Turbo II conversion, 1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II, 1993 Mazda RX-7 Touring with upgraded twins, 1993 Mazda RX-7 R1 with GT35R, 1994 Mazda RX-7 rolling chassis and had a 3 rotor block but never put it in before selling it, 1989 Dodge Caravan with chrysler 420A engine and custom turbo kit (current van is stock block turbo), 2001 Ford F250 turbo diesel.

The Greddy Kit is 100% plug and play engine management. No wiring of any sort. The custom wiring harness Greddy made is a peice of art.

-Jon

Whats the chance the work CZ did on his re-packaged eManage/Greddy/Trust unit fed back to them for a production unit of their own?

We made our own one for the TSI unit, using the OEM connectors. Took a few hours, like a few too many! :D

Cheers,
Hymee.

In stock right now: 1989 Dodge Caravan turbo, 1999 Mazda Miata getting a supercharger in a month or two. Previous cars: 2000 Mazda Miata with GT28/35 turbo, 1988 RX-7 SE with Turbo II conversion, 1987 Mazda RX-7 Turbo II, 1993 Mazda RX-7 Touring with upgraded twins, 1993 Mazda RX-7 R1 with GT35R, 1994 Mazda RX-7 rolling chassis and had a 3 rotor block but never put it in before selling it, 1989 Dodge Caravan with chrysler 420A engine and custom turbo kit (current van is stock block turbo), 2001 Ford F250 turbo diesel.

Dayum. Turbo Lord! http://66.206.4.159/Hail.gif

Whats the chance the work CZ did on his re-packaged eManage/Greddy/Trust unit fed back to them for a production unit of their own?
Uh, you think? :p

The Greddy Kit is 100% plug and play engine management. No wiring of any sort. The custom wiring harness Greddy made is a peice of art.

-Jon
I wnt and read the instructions forthe kit and see what you are talking about know. What was the talk about the injector setups(on the emanage), did you have to set yours with the kit or did it already know what to do.
How about jeff. did you have to do anything difficult to get yours setup? Im trying to decide which way to go.
Also could i do it with out a lift. i have all the tools(used to be mechanic) but no lift.

Jeff, I pulled the manifold off of brillo's car today and compared it to the pdf file you posted. It didn't scale properly. The pdf is actually a tad smaller but too much to be able to be made to work. I made a copy on paper and then held it up to the engine and got the exact port sizes and shapes. They are MUCH smaller than the scan. It's strange that the gasket has huge port openings, the engine's are small, the manifold's are larger than the engine's but not as large as the gasket. Then after the square opening in the manifold, it goes to a round pipe with no taper. WTF??? You had to have been thinking the same thing.

Yeah, the stock manifold is odd.

Jeff, I pulled the manifold off of brillo's car today and compared it to the pdf file you posted. It didn't scale properly. The pdf is actually a tad smaller but too much to be able to be made to work. I made a copy on paper and then held it up to the engine and got the exact port sizes and shapes. They are MUCH smaller than the scan. It's strange that the gasket has huge port openings, the engine's are small, the manifold's are larger than the engine's but not as large as the gasket. Then after the square opening in the manifold, it goes to a round pipe with no taper. WTF??? You had to have been thinking the same thing.


Yeah, I'd say most of the people in the shop were standing around going WTF? when they saw the ports. We took some good pics which will hopefully make it clearer why the exhaust flow sucks.

frankly, I'm amazed you can fit a turbo in that spot near the engine mount.

Any updates on the project?

Any updates on the project?
Uh, its done and I love it? :rolleyes:

I guess I need to get off my butt and actually make a complete install thread...

Oh ok... if you could it would be best to. I'll make my own kit soon

Do you suppose it is this, rather than the "high quality design" of the stock cat-back exhaust that is responsible for the inability of aftermarket exhausts to significantly improve horsepower on an otherwise stock car?

jds

Yeah, I'd say most of the people in the shop were standing around going WTF? when they saw the ports. We took some good pics which will hopefully make it clearer why the exhaust flow sucks.

frankly, I'm amazed you can fit a turbo in that spot near the engine mount.

Yeah, I'd say most of the people in the shop were standing around going WTF? when they saw the ports. We took some good pics which will hopefully make it clearer why the exhaust flow sucks.
I'm left wondering why. Mazda decided this was optimum for some reason - I'd love to know what it is.
It isn't financial, because the type of manifold they went with is not cheap.


frankly, I'm amazed you can fit a turbo in that spot near the engine mount.
As am I! :D

It was a tight fit and I spent the single largest amount of time on the design there.
The smaller turbo that Greddy uses is much easier to fit. My T3/T04 has a much larger compressor, so I had to play with all kinds of angles to get it to fit, yet drain oil correctly and make it possible to get air into and out of the compressor in a useable direction.
Everything is a compromise.

[QUOTE=MazdaManiac]I'm left wondering why. Mazda decided this was optimum for some reason - I'd love to know what it is.
It isn't financial, because the type of manifold they went with is not cheap.


Its was probably emissions related, like everything else on the car.

Probably. Smaller ports equals higher exhaust velocity, yeilding quicker CAT light-off.

However, bigger exhaust ports would have probably only netted more peak HP, not a lot of power in the "driving" band, so why bother on a production car.

Jeff, did you get your EO-1 working yet?

Jeff, did you get your EO-1 working yet?
Yes. I am still playing with the gain and start levels to see how far I can push it before I get spikes, but it does control the boost now.
I was just stupid - I left one of the caps on the solenoid as was suggested by Jon, Mohd and a bunch of other people.

Do you still have an unresolved CEL? Have you started the turbo install?

Yes. I am still playing with the gain and start levels to see how far I can push it before I get spikes, but it does control the boost now.
I was just stupid - I left one of the caps on the solenoid as was suggested by Jon, Mohd and a bunch of other people.

Do you still have an unresolved CEL? Have you started the turbo install?

Picking the car up on saturday. They got a head mazda guy to come out and look. The whole time I have been getting the CEL's was from a TSB. The one about clearing the ecentric shaft sensor. So I got a free motor :D . I cant imagine the dealer replacing all the stuff they did because of this. Oh well worked out good for me. New wires/plugs,and coils all new plus a motor! Good ol mazda

Picking the car up on saturday. They got a head mazda guy to come out and look. The whole time I have been getting the CEL's was from a TSB. The one about clearing the ecentric shaft sensor. So I got a free motor :D . I cant imagine the dealer replacing all the stuff they did because of this. Oh well worked out good for me. New wires/plugs,and coils all new plus a motor! Good ol mazda
Holy sh*t. The whole thing was just the brake-stomp TSB?
That would have been the absolute FIRST thing I would have tried.

Holy sh*t. The whole thing was just the brake-stomp TSB?
That would have been the absolute FIRST thing I would have tried.

Yup, all because of this
http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/docs/01-007.htm

I just assumed they had tried it on the first attempt. Oh well we will see what it does the next few days. :p

Here is the most current E-Manage MAP for anyone that might need it.
It is compatible with the Greddy kit as well as any custom setup that uses the same injector wiring scheme.
This includes NVCS control of the open-loop dongle (standard on the Greddy kit, though I suggest removing it if you have hesitation issues and a lot of back-firing under load), the acceleration MAP and ignition timing control (which is not standard on the Greddy kit).

MazdaManiac E-Manage MAP (http://www.mazdamaniac.com/images/emanage/maps/5_05_05.GSC)

Right-click and "Save As".

You must have the "Gold" version of the support tool (v1.20 or later) to use this MAP.
You can download the Support Tool updates as a ZIP file here:

E-Manage Update (http://www.mazdamaniac.com/downloads/emanage/greddy%20emanage%20update.zip)

Mazdamaniac,
I think thats a great idea I thought of that before alos but I had to leave the states for a while and mt car is in storage(I'm a soldier). I know there are ways to make this sing they just have to be experimented. I learned how wankels work back in vo-tech but never had or toeyed with one. Also, it rubs my rubarb how no ones doing anything in the magazines with thr rx-8 looks kinda discouraging, seems hopeless for now but I'll be doing a lot more after my waranty expires haha! Good luck